The 'Veyron-rant' rant

[Wolfe]

What do you mean by "owning"?

Owning a car made by the manufacturer for which you are a purist.

Point?

Here, I'll help.

But, I would think the real BMW purist would have to agree with me on the power of the 335i. Even 30bhp would still help this car. I just can't see 300bhp being enough.

I disagree. 300hp is what most of the opposition has, it's almost as much as the outgoing M3 (which is more than one would expect from an "ordinary" model), it's more than enough to make the car respectably quick, and with the small turbos it's both torquier and more efficient than the competition while remaining responsive and smooth.

They could of just dropped the CSL drivetrain in it and had themselves one badass ride.

Although it's a bit silly, as a purist I'd rather not see the excellent S54B32 powertrain end up in a non-M car (not from the factory, anyway).

What bothers me as a BMW fan is they went to forced induction in the first place...and when they did the power output was measly in my opinion.

BMW used forced induction over 30 years ago on a roadcar, used it several times in racing afterwards, and has been turboing their diesels for quite some time now.

I like high-revving naturally-aspirated mills, but the idea of BMW combining their already competitive naturally-aspirated motors with the smart benefits of turbocharging sounds like a winning combo to me (compare this with engines that "need" turbocharging to keep up). Besides, I believe the head of the M division said forced induction will not be appearing on an M car anytime soon. Turbos for the normal cars, impractical high-RPM engines for the M cars...sounds good to me.

So instead of trying to find the sweet spot between fuel economy and power they chose neither realistically? Even at 325bhp--if that number is correct--that is still very little for a vehicle with two turbos.

What? The N54 was the solution to the sweet spot between fuel economy and power. If they tried to improve the S54's mileage it wouldn't have made the power you want.

325hp is enough to meet my personal turbo-engine benchmark of 100hp/L. Do you also think the 197hp 2.0L turbo GTI is disappointing, especially since it has nifty direct-injection?

...why not more bhp and have it NA....

...they could of easily achieved more power by tuning it than just dumping a couple of tiny turbos.

Everything ///M-spec said about the S54 is the reason why.

Take a poll of 3-series coupe owners and ask what's the number one thing they'd want from their 335i coupe and I almost guarantee that 75% would say more power.

They can take down an E36 M3 in a drag race and nearly keep up with an E46 M3. What's not to like?

Everything in bold is un-BMW like in my eyes. So what you're saying is the new 335i coupe is the polar opposite of the outgoing (and probably incoming) M3? Aren't the BMW purists irritated?

Everything in bold involves high expectations from BMW purists, which is why they're still a bit disappointed despite the fact that the car is very good.

 

[Tornado]

So instead of trying to find the sweet spot between fuel economy and power they chose neither realistically? Even at 325bhp--if that number is correct--that is still very little for a vehicle with two turbos.

You own (or maybe owned. I dunno) a 3000GT. They are vehicles with good throttle response and little lag, yet they make good power. Would you have liked it if you had to rev it to 6k to get anything out of it constantly? What if it was marginally faster but there was lag every time you touched the throttle? BMW wanted neither to happen and twin turbos and low boost allowed that (you don't seem to realise that the amount of turbos has nothing to do with power. It only effects how smooth the engine is. Just like cylinder amount).
In any case, with whether it has 300BHP or 325, it still smokes an E36 M3 (which has roughly the same power) and beats the E46 6 times out of 10, despite being down on power. The goals BMW set out to achieve worked in that respect.

I didn't say I didn't like the car, I just want more power from a BMW. I understand and agree that the torque is good (30lb.ft. higher than the G37--its cheif rival), but why not more bhp and have it NA.

Because then it would be an E46 M3, which is hardly a liveble vehicle compared to the 335Ci.
Lets look at it this way: What do you think would be easier to live with: An '99 S2000 or a '07 S2000?

Wouldn't logic dictate that BMW could of easily squeezed an extra 30-80bhp from it?

It would have been, at the expense of fuel mileage and smooth power delivery. The only reason BMW considered turbos was that advances in technology dictated that they could add torque without sacrificing smoothness. That is why they added turbos, period. They didn't care if the car had 300 BHP or 380 BHP.

 

[land sea air]

::looks at last page and a half of discussion then looks at tittle of thread::

 

[Orion]

You own (or maybe owned. I dunno) a 3000GT. They are vehicles with good throttle response and little lag, yet they make good power.

The 3000GT weights as much as the titanic.

 

[Wolfe]

The 3000GT weights as much as the titanic.

How relevant.

Incidentally, the 335i only needs a passenger or two to match the weight of the 3000GT VR-4, and the base FWD 3000GT weighed less than the Z4 M Roadster.

 

[TopHat]

When people say "3000GT" They usually mean "3000GT VR4 Spyder".

3000GT : 1400kg

300GT VR4 Spyder : 1700kg, or so says Wikipedia.

 

[Wolfe]

When people say "3000GT" They usually mean "3000GT VR4 Spyder".

3000GT : 1400kg

300GT VR4 Spyder : 1700kg, or so says Wikipedia.

About 1700kg was what I found for the ordinary VR-4, and was the weight I was referring to.

 

[Tornado]

When people say "3000GT" They usually mean "3000GT VR4 Spyder".

3000GT : 1400kg

The only 3000GT remotely close to that weight is the FWD anemic pig SOHC V6. Normal VR-4s were around 1700kg. The hardtop...jesus. That must weigh 2 tons.
By that same measure, the Stealth is so awesome that it automatically loses 400lbs. True story.

 

[Orion]

Exactly, the car weights more than a Dodge Challenger R/T.

How relevant.

This thread has been spiraling down to the gutter since the thing between M-Spec and JCE3000GT.

 

[TopHat]

The only 3000GT remotely close to that weight is the FWD anemic pig SOHC V6.

I wonder why It only says "3000GT" there..... 💡

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

This thread has been spiraling down to the gutter since the thing between M-Spec and JCE3000GT.

Not really, I found the discussion pretty interesting and "intelligent."

 

[Speedster502]

What on earth has the BMW 335i or the Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Spyder got to do with the Veyron? At all?

 

[TopHat]

Absolutely NO idea.

Maybe it had something to do with using turbo's to "imitate" a larger engine... Then weight. Then a Mistu weighing as much as a titanic, and so on.

 

[the Interceptor]

Not really, I found the discussion pretty interesting and "intelligent."

It is offtopic, and interesting at the same time. However, I kind of miss the point of this discussion, and am afraid that we're running into a deadlock situation here. The way I understand it, JCE3000GT is not happy with the way BMW made the 335i engine. He says that they could easily have made it more powerful, which can't be a bad thing.

The thing is that BMW made this engine to fill the gap between the 330i and the M3. Therefor, they honed a twin turbo engine to feel like a bigger N/A model. And the question why they didn't simply take one of the bigger N/A models they have instead is to be answered simple: the 335i weighs 70kg less (154 lb) and is more economical.

I do understand some have problems with this engine, cause for a twin turbo I6 with 3.0l, it doesn't have very much power. What you should actually do is understand this engine under the circumstances and the purposes it was built for. And then, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Pupik]

All I can come up with is: The Veyron is ugly.

It isn't an excuse to remove cars from the road, lest all last-gen Buick Skylark owners would be arrested on the spot.

Otherwise, the Veyron generates a lot of respect from me, but not a whole lot of excitement. It just seems like a racecar for street use, with fanciful coachwork to boot. What better way to build a million-dollar car?

At the end of the day, most owners won't use more than 30% of its potential, just like every other car and driver.

 

[///M-Spec]

BMW discussion continued in this thread.

....

This thread has been spiraling down to the gutter since the thing between M-Spec and JCE3000GT.

There is no "thing" between JCE3000GT and me. He has an opinion, I have an opinion. We're just having a discussion. At least two other posters find the OT interesting (and hopefully informative) Besides which the 335 was a topic of discussion since page 3... without me being here. NOW you want to complain about it?

And seriously, no one with total negative rep points has any business complaining about the quality of a thread.


M

 

[Orion]

Well I have the pages set to show 40 posts at a time, so it is on page 3 right now. Well that's my excuse anyways.

Calm down ///M-Spec, I didn't mean harm when I said that, I meant you guys we're discussing back and forth different opinions, nothing big. Sorry if I rattled your cage.

I got -Rep points because I give out +Reps to posts that deserves it, and many posts including some of mine are quality posts. Just look at a good amount of posts in he GT3 and 4 sections.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

I couldn't get passed the "Okay, if you really want to do this to yourself" part. Damn my AD...ooooo butterflies!

 

[Orion]

 

[Abysmal Pea]

I've only read 3 pages into the thread, but this is the impression I'm getting from the people talking about how a car should have more power than what it puts out:

Guy1: POWER IS GOOD! LESS POWER SUCKS!
Guy2: POWAR IS AWESOME! LESS POWAR IS BLASPHEMY!
Guy3: THE POOWWWEEERRRR! I NEEEED IIIIIT!
Guy4: Dodge Viper?
Guys1, 2, and 3: OH SHI-

For a forum that consistently prefers good handling to fast speeds, I find it surprising that horsepower junkies still fall from the woodworks. These people should just throw 300 more bhp into a stock Volkswagon Beetle, because that would definitely improve the car's quality.
>.o

 

[Joey D]

You know I've always wanted to build a woodwork and see what came out of it.

 

[1X83Z]

These people should just throw 300 more bhp into a stock Volkswagon Beetle, because that would definitely improve the car's quality.

Finally some logic I can stand behind!!

 

[TopHat]

Guy1: POWER IS GOOD! LESS POWER SUCKS!
Guy2: POWAR IS AWESOME! LESS POWAR IS BLASPHEMY!
Guy3: THE POOWWWEEERRRR! I NEEEED IIIIIT!
Guy4: Dodge Viper?
Guys1, 2, and 3: OH SHI-

CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.


I wish that the base Mustang GT had some more power, that would be good.

 

[X 4 Zeta]

That's nice, Interceptor.

I still think that car isn't even worth a dime.

 

[Leonidae]

which one? Veyron, Viper, Bug or Mustang? or Buick?

 

[the Interceptor]

And even more importantly, I miss the motivation for that statement.

 

[Kutscher80]

First I want to thank "Interceptor" for the work. I really enjoyed reading it. I still don´t like the car and I "hate" the people (especially marketing people) that say it is the BEST ever.

I am sorry for the people that can´t speak german but here is a nice read about the Veyron on the Nordschleife on the site (last of the links):
http://www.motor-kritik.de/ ( From a german freelance Journalist )

Some direct links about the Bugatti: http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/07011808.HTM
http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/06031003.HTM
http://www.motor-kritik.de/common/05081508.HTM

Everyone who can understand german should read there.
The Journalist asked for a 200km Race on the Nordschleife(NONSTOP): Bugatti against Seat Ibiza Cupra TDI or a 40 year old Alfa Romeo GTA
... and he got not yet an answer (he asked in 2005)
And another point is that the famous "SportAuto" magazine doesn´t get a car for testing it...
This makes me feel that the car is a "papertiger" as you called it.

In the discussion you all didn´t think about some other Competiton that can achieve so high speeds. I just say "Kremer Porsche 962" (Yes, there was a streetlegal version Price was around 730.000 DM when I remember right)...
About the reliability of the 962 you can read in lots of books. And yes, I know it is a racecar that they just "converted" to a streetcar.

I know it is an "old" thread but I hope I will get some oppinions from you all.
Have a great time
Kutscher

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Everyone who can understand german should read there.
The Journalist asked for a 200km Race on the Nordschleife(NONSTOP): Bugatti against Seat Ibiza Cupra TDI or a 40 year old Alfa Romeo GTA
... and he got not yet an answer (he asked in 2005)

veyron isnt a race car,wasnt built to be fast round a track and it wouldnt be able to do a non-stop 200km as it is.it does roughly 4mpg when getting ragged and has a 26.4 gallon tank which means it will do 105.6 miles to a tank which is 169km and personally i would have told him to bugger off unless he fancys paying for new tyres (£25,000 a set) new brakes and the repair costs if he decides to cuddle a tree.

 

[Kutscher80]

veyron isnt a race car,wasnt built to be fast round a track and it wouldnt be able to do a non-stop 200km as it is.it does roughly 4mpg when getting ragged and has a 26.4 gallon tank which means it will do 105.6 miles to a tank which is 169km and personally i would have told him to bugger off unless he fancys paying for new tyres (£25,000 a set) new brakes and the repair costs if he decides to cuddle a tree.

Well, that is because sadly you can´t read the whole story.
He challenged the BOSS of Bugatti (Mr. Bscher, vizeworldchampion Sportscar racing) to drive against him. And he will only drive the Seat or an 40 year old Alfa Romeo GTA with 1600cc from his brother...

And btw... the Laptime of the Veyron (Breidscheid - Breidscheid) 9:10... (EDIT: As you can read in the article it was still in TESTING at that time... Just to clear the misunderstanding in this part)

And a Seat Ibiza TDI is not a racecar, too.

 

[the Interceptor]

Still, it's kind of a pointless approach, because it is obvious Bugatti wouldn't do that. And the argument that they don't accept the challenge because the Veyron doesn't live up to their claims is pretty lame. I mean I could challenge them with a Smart CDI, then wait a few weeks (with nothing happening, obviously) and afterwards post on the internet "got something to hide Mr. Bscher, eh?". You simply can't lose that one...