The 'Veyron-rant' rant

[Dave A]

Where's that 9:10 lap from? The Veyron has lapped the ring in under 8 mins in traffic when they were testing the car for cooling. I'm guessing that's for the Ring including the F1 track?

Besides that I have to agree with Holden on this one, while I have no doubt that the Veyron is a very quick car on a track it is not built for the track. Bugatti have never marketed it as being a track car and they have nothing to gain from such an offer. The race imo sounds absured, it's a no brainer that the Veyron would beat a Cupra TDi, it'd be in front within 2 seconds of the race starting and it'd just fly away from there.

I have no idea what you're trying to prove or what point you're trying to make here, but the whole race idea is no brainer for Bugatti. Besides, as has been said, the Veyron would probably have to stop, it'd run out of fuel.

 

[Kutscher80]

Still, it's kind of a pointless approach, because it is obvious Bugatti wouldn't do that. And the argument that they don't accept the challenge because the Veyron doesn't live up to their claims is pretty lame. I mean I could challenge them with a Smart CDI, then wait a few weeks (with nothing happening, obviously) and afterwards post on the internet "got something to hide Mr. Bscher, eh?". You simply can't lose that one...

Yeah, and that is the same reason why they don´t give the car to "SportAuto" because they would test it and see that it is not as good as they say it is. The engine gets too hot and the brakes are not "supersport" like. (Well, I think that the weight is the cause of the brake problem)

And I have the feeling that you didn´t read the pages I have posted...

 

[Kutscher80]

Where's that 9:10 lap from? The Veyron has lapped the ring in under 8 mins in traffic when they were testing the car for cooling. I'm guessing that's for the Ring including the F1 track?

Besides that I have to agree with Holden on this one, while I have no doubt that the Veyron is a very quick car on a track it is not built for the track. Bugatti have never marketed it as being a track car and they have nothing to gain from such an offer. The race imo sounds absured, it's a no brainer that the Veyron would beat a Cupra TDi, it'd be in front within 2 seconds of the race starting and it'd just fly away from there.

I have no idea what you're trying to prove or what point you're trying to make here, but the whole race idea is no brainer for Bugatti. Besides, as has been said, the Veyron would probably have to stop, it'd run out of fuel.

Yeah, that is the POINT! The car will maybe very fast on one lap then the engine will change into "emergency program" because of overheating... But that you can read on the linked website. (If you can understand german...)

And it was only Nordschleife (the time the journalist wrote in his article)....

 

[Dave A]

So this journalist says the Veyron can only do 9:10 round the Nordschliefe (and no I can't read German)? In that case he's seriousely wrong, the Veyron has already been recorded going much faster than that and that wasn't even on a flying lap. I'd guess the Veyron will do a flying lap in the region of a 7'30 low 7'30's but that's a guess, what I know is that on a non flying lap it ran a 7'40.

As for the rest of your argment, based on thoes pages, they don't look like a credible journalists site to me. Besides, the whole article is moot to me because I don't read German.

 

[Mark T]

I found this on my computer from ages ago.

7:40 --- 161.217 km/h – Bugatti Veyron, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)

Nordschleife excluding GP track, 20.6 kms:

Found the link to the source

and another

 

[Kutscher80]

I am not trying to "prove" anything.
I just wanted to open up the discussion a bit...

For Example:
It was only talked about Dodge Viper with 1000hp and that thing will hardly reach 250mph. And I said that a Kremer Porsche 962 would be able to reach about that speed (in Nardo for example, where they officially tested the TOPSPEED of the Veyron). And the Kremer Porsche is now already around 20 years old. (And yes it was a streetlegal version of a racecar)

And the links were more or less for the Interceptor to get more infos about the Veyron. (Partly in its development, Insiderinfos and so on...)
But without reading this articles (that are sadly only available in german) you won´t understand the rest.

 

[Kutscher80]

I found this on my computer from ages ago.

7:40 --- 161.217 km/h – Bugatti Veyron, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)

Nordschleife excluding GP track, 20.6 kms:

Found the link to the source

and another

The 2nd Website disqualifies themselves with the graphic they use... This version of the Nordschleife is no longer existing. You can still see the "Südkehre"...

The mentioned time of 9:10 was mentioned in that article and it is just for you to know then exactly 20,832m. While the "normal" Time Attack is 20.6kms long... But that won´t take over a minute for sure

 

[Dave A]

Why are you comparing the Veyron to the Kremer 962? What do the two cars have in common besides 4 wheels? What was the 962 built for? What was the Veyron built for? Was the 962 a production road car? Is the Veyron a production road car? Did the 962 come with a warrantey equal to that of a VW Golf? Does the Veyron?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

The Veyron is a masterpiece of engineering, it is not a converted group C car, it is not supposed to be a bare bones car with nothing in it but seats and a powerfull motor in the back, it's an engineering showpiece. A showpiece that has a 3 year warranty, won't give you a bad back if you drive it on public roads and like the 962 is faster than anyone is likely to take it. Hell, forget the 962, that's crap engineering when you think about it, Mercedes were going faster than that in the 1930's. See what happens when I turn your argument around and point it at you? Top speed is not the Veyrons end game, it never was, it was just one area the Veyron was supposed to succeed in, and it did.

 

[Kutscher80]

As for the rest of your argment, based on thoes pages, they don't look like a credible journalists site to me. Besides, the whole article is moot to me because I don't read German.

...says you and jugde a book by its cover...
Without german knowledge you shouldn´t judge a german writing journalist. The guy is over 70 years old and didn´t study "Website design"... Some people seem to favour looks over content. And btw. the guy raced himself, wrote for lots of famous german magazines. He is now "only" doing websites because he is "critizing" too much for a normal car magazine that lives FROM the ADVERTISEMENT of the Carmanufacturers...

 

[Rue]

The Veyron is a masterpiece of engineering, it is not a converted group C car, it is not supposed to be a bare bones car with nothing in it but seats and a powerfull motor in the back, it's an engineering showpiece. A showpiece that has a year warranty, won't give you a bad back if you drive it on public roads and like the 962 is faster than anyone is likely to take it. Hell, forget the 962, that's crap engineering when you think about it, Mercedes were going faster than that in the 1930's. See what happens when I turn your argument around and point it at you? Top speed is not the Veyrons end game, it never was, it was just one are the Veyron was supposed to succeed in, and it did.

Very well said. I've never been a huge fan of the Veyron, but you hit the nail right on the head there Dave .In fact I feel the Veyron is an underrated car as far as the ridiculous engineering feet it is. People just talk about the cost and horsepower, but it's special for all the things you say above. Love it or hate it, it's a phenomenol car.

 

[Kutscher80]

The Veyron is a masterpiece of engineering, it is not a converted group C car, it is not supposed to be a bare bones car with nothing in it but seats and a powerfull motor in the back, it's an engineering showpiece. A showpiece that has a year warranty, won't give you a bad back if you drive it on public roads and like the 962 is faster than anyone is likely to take it. Hell, forget the 962, that's crap engineering when you think about it, Mercedes were going faster than that in the 1930's. See what happens when I turn your argument around and point it at you? Top speed is not the Veyrons end game, it never was, it was just one are the Veyron was supposed to succeed in, and it did.

Show me a prove that ANY CAR has been driving faster around the Nordschleife then a Porsche 962. (Especially the Interceptor knows that)
And honestly saying the Porsche 962 is a "crapdesign" shows that you don´t have a clue... That thing ruled the sportscar races like no other after it again... And that you will achieve through "crapdesign" for sure)

And when you go like that, the THRUST SSC is even faster then every other thing on the land

And btw. I didn´t say that the Veyron is a "bad" car. I just gave some informations, that maybe some people didn´t know before...

 

[Dave A]

Show me a prove that ANY CAR has been driving faster around the Nordschleife then a Porsche 962. (Especially the Interceptor knows that)

I never said the Veyron was faster than a 962, you show me where I did.

And honestly saying the Porsche 962 is a "crapdesign" shows that you don´t have a clue...

I never said the 962 was actually a crap design, I was making a point which you clearly missed. You said the 962 was x quick and 20 years old, as though that means anything in this comparison. My point was that it didn't mean anything because I could turn that argument on it's head. The 962 and the Veyron are nothing alike. Would you like to address the other points I made or will your argument fall flat on it's face if you do?

And comparing the Thrust SSC to the 962 is almost as sane a comparison as the 962 to the Veyron. Your logic fails.

 

[Kutscher80]

I never said the Veyron was faster than a 962, you show me where I did.
I never said the 962 was actually a crap design, I was making a point which you clearly missed. You said the 962 was x quick and 20 years old, as though that means anything in this comparison. My point was that it didn't mean anything because I could turn that argument on it's head. The 962 and the Veyron are nothing alikt. Would you like to address the other points I made or will your argument fall flat on it's face if you do?

And comparing the Thrust SSC to the 962 is almost as sane a comparison as the 962 to the Veyron. Your logic fails.

You said here the 962 was a "crapdesign":

The Veyron is a masterpiece of engineering, it is not a converted group C car, it is not supposed to be a bare bones car with nothing in it but seats and a powerfull motor in the back, it's an engineering showpiece. A showpiece that has a 3 year warranty, won't give you a bad back if you drive it on public roads and like the 962 is faster than anyone is likely to take it. Hell, forget the 962, that's crap engineering when you think about it, Mercedes were going faster than that in the 1930's. See what happens when I turn your argument around and point it at you? Top speed is not the Veyrons end game, it never was, it was just one area the Veyron was supposed to succeed in, and it did.

And again I didn´t say that the Veyron is "crap" or a "bad" car. I just say for me it is, of the reasons I wrote there (Not giving it to SportAuto for a Supertest and the insider and background infos on Motor-Kritik.de), a "papertiger".

So, without understanding the reasons (because sadly you can´t understand german) you can´t debate with me.

 

[Kutscher80]

I never said the Veyron was faster than a 962, you show me where I did.
I never said the 962 was actually a crap design, I was making a point which you clearly missed. You said the 962 was x quick and 20 years old, as though that means anything in this comparison. My point was that it didn't mean anything because I could turn that argument on it's head. The 962 and the Veyron are nothing alike. Would you like to address the other points I made or will your argument fall flat on it's face if you do?

And comparing the Thrust SSC to the 962 is almost as sane a comparison as the 962 to the Veyron. Your logic fails.

Holy **** I didn´t compare the THRUST SSC with the 962... I was just saying that because you wrote that a mercedes of 1930 was faster than the 962...

 

[Dave A]

You said here the 962 was a "crapdesign":

No I didn't, I was making a point based on flawed logic to illustrate what you're doing comparing the 962 to the Veyron.

So, without understanding the reasons (because sadly you can´t understand german) you can´t debate with me.

I can debate with you, but your sat at your computer coparing the Veyron to the 962, what the hell is with that? You still haven't answered the many qestions in my earlier post.

Holy **** I didn´t compare the THRUST SSC with the 962... I was just saying that because you wrote that a mercedes of 1930 was faster than the 962...

I didn't say you did, I said the comparison would be nearly as sane as this. You're making no sense comparing these two cars, why this comparison?

 

[Kutscher80]

I didn't say you did, I said the comparison would be nearly as sane as this. You're making no sense comparing these two cars, why this comparison?

When you read through all the posts again, they were people debating about cars that can reach about 400km/h. (Tuned Viper with 1000hp for example)I just wrote some informations for the "Interceptor" (and other interested that can understand german) and then as a car that could reach 400km/h and that is streetlegal I mentioned the Kremer Porsche 962.

So I didn´t compare the Veyron to the Kremer directly. I was just giving the information that they were cars (streetlegal) that could reach about the same speed as the Veyron already longer time ago.

I didn´t say anything about WARRANTIES, luxury or whatever. I already wrote in my first post that I don´t like the Veyron, but I don´t hate it. So when I got the Interceptor right, he is fine with my oppinion. I think it is, even when it is not my "ideal" of a (Super)sportscar and has some problems (heat, brake), a good car and it was for sure a tough work for the engineers. That you can see already in the development time. I mean that it was not easy to develop the car, the tires and so on...

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Well, that is because sadly you can´t read the whole story.
He challenged the BOSS of Bugatti (Mr. Bscher, vizeworldchampion Sportscar racing) to drive against him. And he will only drive the Seat or an 40 year old Alfa Romeo GTA with 1600cc from his brother...

And btw... the Laptime of the Veyron (Breidscheid - Breidscheid) 9:10...

And a Seat Ibiza TDI is not a racecar, too.

and my point still stands veyron wouldnt have the fuel to last 200km non-stop and would you be willing to pay the cost for the race? doubtful,and how many requests like that do you think bugatti get?

also the veyron never has did a flat out hot lap of the 'ring so noone knows how fast it can go round,again another reason why you havent seen it do a hot lap of the 'ring or the top gear track is because they arent marketting it as a track car.

they were people debating about cars that can reach about 400km/h. (Tuned Viper with 1000hp for example)

no tuned viper at all has done 400kph

edit: also ive yet to see a veyron with heating or brake issues.

 

[Kutscher80]

and my point still stands veyron wouldnt have the fuel to last 200km non-stop and would you be willing to pay the cost for the race? doubtful,and how many requests like that do you think bugatti get?

also the veyron never has did a flat out hot lap of the 'ring so noone knows how fast it can go round,again another reason why you havent seen it do a hot lap of the 'ring or the top gear track is because they arent marketting it as a track car.


no tuned viper at all has done 400kph

edit: also ive yet to see a veyron with heating or brake issues.

It is a nonstop race (no breaks) filling up the tank IS allowed. (I just read that article again to be sure). The "costs" for the race are Peanuts for the Volkswagen AG. The cars are there anyway testing all the time...

The Laptimes mentioned were taken while they were testing the car on the Nordschleife. (NOT public, but you can select a place and measure the time by yourself)

And yes, as far as I know no tuned viper has reached 400km/h. I was just giving an example of a streetlegal car that could reach that speed... (Read all posts from the beginning, there was a debate that a tuned viper can go as fast as the Veyron) So to give an example of a car that really can get up those speeds (because we both don´t believe a viper can do it) I mentioned the Kremer Porsche.
I didn´t compare the Kremer with the Veyron.

Greetz
Kutscher

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

The "costs" for the race are Peanuts for the Volkswagen AG. The cars are there anyway testing all the time...

it might be peanuts to VAG but your forgetting they are making roughly a £4.2 million lose on each veyron they build,if the journalist wants do the race then the journalist better pay for it,if bugatti dont want to do the race then why should they pay for it?

the lap times might have been done during testing but again they werent flat out hot laps.

 

[Dave A]

And again, what does Bugatti have to gain by taking part in this race, nothing. If they win which lets be honest is what will happen, then all they'll get is, well so you should. What would this race do for Bugatti?

You know what, I think I'll challenge Porsche to a race, the can pay to hire the track I'll race my Focus and they can race whatever car they bring out next before it's been independenty tested. If they don't accept then I shall assume that my Focus is better than their car in this regard.

 

[Kutscher80]

it might be peanuts to VAG but your forgetting they are making roughly a £4.2 million lose on each veyron they build,if the journalist wants do the race then the journalist better pay for it,if bugatti dont want to do the race then why should they pay for it?

the lap times might have been done during testing but again they werent flat out hot laps.

Yeah, a danish racedriver did 8:30 a few days later (still in testing). Maybe it was not "flat our hot laps" but then is the heatproblem of the car even worse. Because it was already in "emergency mode". This Emergency mode cuts the power of the engine to around 800hp and make the "cooling openings" bigger. (Like the Lamborghini Murcielago)

To DAVE: I am astonished that you never read about the "heat" thing. The german magazine "Auto, Motor und Sport" that did the Nardo 400Km/h ride even mentioned it. The Driver and Author wrote that in his first lap he only reached 380 something. Then they stopped to see why and the reason was that the A/C was on. He wrote that they had to wait then to let the engine cool down again. Then on his second try he was driving over 400 Km/h...

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Yeah, a danish racedriver did 8:30 a few days later (still in testing). Maybe it was not "flat our hot laps" but then is the heatproblem of the car even worse. Because it was already in "emergency mode". This Emergency mode cuts the power of the engine to around 800hp and make the "cooling openings" bigger. (Like the Lamborghini Murcielago)

To DAVE: I am astonished that you never read about the "heat" thing. The german magazine "Auto, Motor und Sport" that did the Nardo 400Km/h ride even mentioned it. The Driver and Author wrote that in his first lap he only reached 380 something. Then they stopped to see why and the reason was that the A/C was on. He wrote that they had to wait then to let the engine cool down again. Then on his second try he was driving over 400 Km/h...

and those were when? during the testing period? since the car has been in production there has been NO reported overheating issues at all with the veyron,even with on track performances.if you wanna do the media testing route,top gear ive tested the veyron alot at fairly high speeds and over a long distance and they never reported any kind of issue.

 

[Dave A]

Where are you getting your lap times from Kutscher? First it's 9:10 now some race drive got 8:30. Bottom line, the car has been timed doing 7'40 and that wasn't a hot lap. And like Holden said, since production there has been no reporst of over heating issues, the only ones that have hit the media were during production, and lets be honest, if the Veyron has a problem with overheating, it would hit the press.

 

[Kutscher80]

and those were when? during the testing period? since the car has been in production there has been NO reported overheating issues at all with the veyron,even with on track performances.if you wanna do the media testing route,top gear ive tested the veyron alot at fairly high speeds and over a long distance and they never reported any kind of issue.

Where are you getting your lap times from Kutscher? First it's 9:10 now some race drive got 8:30. Bottom line, the car has been timed doing 7'40 and that wasn't a hot lap. And like Holden said, since production there has been no reporst of over heating issues, the only ones that have hit the media were during production, and lets be honest, if the Veyron has a problem with overheating, it would hit the press.

The times are from the linked source in my first post. And they were taken in August 2005, still testing but close to the production date already...

The heatthing I mentioned was the official car that "break" the speedrecord and was driven in Nardo. In that article there was no saying that it was still a "pre-production" car... But on the other site read this: "The Bugatti boss was especially concrete in his denial of recurring reports about problems with the W16 engine, which, with its 1001 horsepower, can catapult the Veyron to more than 400 km/h. “The engine runs dependably – overheating is no problem!”Dr. Neumann told the journalists that an analysis of the vehicle’s cooling behavior showed that, even at an external temperature of 40 °Celcius, the Veyron 16.4 can maintain its top speed without difficulty. He also specifically denied reports that a “street version with reduced performance” will be offered. “There isn’t the slightest reason why limits should be set with the vehicle’s top speed. The Veyron will go faster than 400 km/h and has 1001 horsepower – there will be no other version of this vehicle!”
“At present, we are in the end-phase in testing the tires that have been developed jointly with MICHELIN, and have already tested successfully at 440 km/h”, said Dr. Neumann in reply to a number of newspaper reports which had expressed doubts as to the ability of the tires to withstand pressures at such high speeds.Finally, in reply to rumors that the delivery of the first vehicles will be pushed back one year, the Bugatti head said, “We will begin – just as we had always planned – with the production of the first six vehicles in the Bugatti studio in Molsheim in November of this year. The first Veyron will be delivered in April of 2004!”"
Source: http://www.bugatti.com/en/home/news.html?newsId=28

So, someone did not say the truth... That was in 2003... and the laptimes and the heating problems were from August 2005.


I just read a bit in the german and english wikipedia and I found there "The Bugatti Veyron 16.4 is a supercar produced by Volkswagen AG subsidiary Bugatti Automobiles SAS. It is the most expensive and fastest accelerating street-legal production car in the world and it was also the fastest and most powerful one, until it was surpassed by the SSC Ultimate Aero TT on September 13, 2007."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4

Just to clear my point:
I am not comparing, I am just giving informations. What you do with them is up to you.

And about if it would hit the press... I wouldn´t be so sure. But that is just my oppinion... (little hint: look how much advertisement is inside car magazines and imagine what happens to the magazine when they lose ONE big customer like VAG...)

 

[the Interceptor]

Well, the major point is that this guy is making some claims without providing proof. Everyone could just say "I've informed myself and found out that ...".

 

[Kutscher80]

Well, the major point is that this guy is making some claims without providing proof. Everyone could just say "I've informed myself and found out that ...".

There is still a lie, even when you don´t count the "guy that is making some claims".

Read by yourself:

"Piëch retired that year as chairman of the Volkswagen Group and was replaced by Bernd Pischetsrieder. The new chairman promptly sent the Veyron back to the drawing board for major revisions. Neumann was replaced as Bugatti president by Thomas Bscher in December 2003, and substantial modifications were made to the Veyron under the guidance of former VW engineer, Bugatti Engineering head Wolfgang Schreiber."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron_16.4

And then read again:
"September 10, 2003 .... Finally, in reply to rumors that the delivery of the first vehicles will be pushed back one year, the Bugatti head said, “We will begin – just as we had always planned – with the production of the first six vehicles in the Bugatti studio in Molsheim in November of this year. The first Veyron will be delivered in April of 2004!”"

Source: http://www.bugatti.com/en/home/news.html?newsId=28

So the car had no problems? Why was the car then "substantial" modificated?
And when it had no problem why it took them so much longer to let the car "hit the streets"?

And about proves: Do it like the guy and ask for the official documentation of the TÜV Süddeutschland... Please tell me the answer you got from them.

 

[Dave A]

Your whole argument is ludicrous. Between 2003 and 2005 the car change quite a lot. The key features and goals stayed the same, but in 2003 the car was not hitting 252mph. Heating issues did arise, but they were sorted before the car went into production. Thats when all the testing was done at the Ring, to sort out the heating issues.

You say your just giving us information, my question is why? If you don't have a point to make go away, if you do have a point, state your point and we can discuss it.

The last time you were just giving information you decided not to address the majority the questions I posed to you, if your just doing the same thing again go away. There's no point in irrelevent information being posted with no point behind it.

 

[CirclesCenter]

First: Interceptor, a very well written argument! I also enjoyed your counterpoint.

I personally am quite split on the issue of the Veyron. I love the brutal over the top well rounded performance of the car, but I also hate how it seems so soul-less.

However if offered it or a Murcielago to keep I would most certainly get the Lambo. Lambos are so violent. <3

 

[thefraggle]

I kind of have two trains of thought on this to be honest.
I have seen i think 3 Veyrons now and have not yet been captivated by any of them however was spell bound by the 1700km example of an F40 for sale next to it.
The veyron, Love it or hate it it is really here so a compnay can say they have beaten the McLaren F1 as lets face it there havent really been any to challenge it since its release, alot like it was the only real car to challenge the XJ220 (which are still availbale to buy brand new) The car was only made an an experiment and nothing more which is why they lose money on every car that they sell. It does its job beautifuly which is to be a hyper car that accelerates faster and has a higher top speed of any road going production car in the world and it certainly does that. I am however left witha slightly sour tatse in my mouth as it does leave me wondering why did they bother if they only made it to proove a point. Other compnaies like Ferrari and McLaren have made cars in the past that have been made with the driver in mind, Bugatti on the other hand dont seem to do this they make cars that have nothing short of pure speed. Most people dont really remember or know anything about the old Bugatti EB110 or the EB110 super sport, this was also an quad turbo four wheel drive road going monster but once again this was another car that cost too much money and i believe was the one that put Bugatti into the ground before only to be reserected by Volkswagon so they could build a car with VW technology and put four turbos on it.
My ford focus is more powerful per litre of egine capacity than a veyron.
My last word on it is............... a beautiful car and a truely wonderful piece of engineering but i really dont see the point tbh as you cant use it on the road. i used to be friends with someone who drove one and took it down a road about 90 meters long and even he said on such a small road it has too much power.

Loads of love
Frazer

 

[McLaren]

Quick note, but there are no "new" XJ220s for sale. If there were, they'd be well over the used model's average $300,000 due to no mileage. However, the only XJ220s for sale on the market are used, and go for $250K to $350K. There are only 2 rare exceptions.