The Veyron.

[Layla's Keeper]

Wasn't aware of Ultimas being available as running assembled cars. I'll amend my statement then, and hope that the Ultimas become more available over here.

And I'll take either of the Chevy powered privateer supercars (Ultima GTR or Mosler MT900) over a Noble M12.

Which makes me wonder, does the large number of Chevy powered racing based sportscars now remind anyone else of the days of Listers, Allards, and other such cars?

 

[Dave A]

The Lister Storm (I presume thats the one ou mean) was a Jaguar V12, the Lister LeMans was a Jaguar V12. I don't see any connection, however I do agree, I would rather an MT900 or an Ultima over a Noble M12, over a 400R, maybe not I'd have to think about it, but not over a M14 anyday.

 

[eliseracer]

An Elise and use the extra 130,000$ to make it gob-smackingly fast. Or just pocket the cash and enjoy the ride just as much.

 

[Dave A]

A super powerful Elise wouldn't be stable enough at speed, it's too short so I'd rather start with a biggr car if were talking this performance bracket.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Live4Speed, you disappoint me. I wasn't talking about the modern Listers in the least. In fact, I very rarely do (save for the LMP occasionally).

When I say Lister, I mean a classic Lister in either "Knobbly"

or "Costin" form.

These Listers usually had either Jaguar L6 or Chevy V8 power, as did many of the classic road racing specials of the 50's and early 60's. Cars like this Echidna.....

or this Iso Grifo....

And by the way, I'd have killed to have been at this year's Goodwood Revival where all of these pictures came from.

 

[PS]

If I wanted to get somewhere in luxury then I would choose a Rolls Royce or a Bentley. They tried to mix a lot of things into 1 car, with amazing performance, so far all they have succeeded in doing is making a car with ridiculous power and overdoing everything. Supercars should be mid-engine, rear wheel drive beasts, not 4 wheel drive. Supercars should be scary, and keep you on your toes, in my opinion anyway. Of course, I am 18, and have only ever driven 3 cars (dont even have a licence yet), but I think thats how it should be. The McLaren F1 is a drivers car, the Veyron is a poncey "Ive got more money than sense" car

Too bad you're not familiar with the EB110S. Which was also the fastest luxury/supercar in the world when it debuted. And it was a quad-turbo 12 cylinder with 4 catalytic converters and a chain driven OHC. Bugatti makes the world's fastest cars, that's all there is to it. They do it because they can, not because they want sales.


[edit]

The McLaren F1 is a drivers car, the Veyron is a poncey "Ive got more money than sense" car

!! Nothing like purely ironic posts.

 

[Driftster]

PS....

The records the buggatti holds/held..

is the worlds fastest dual-fueld car...at 213&change MPH

and the worlds fastest car on ice.......296 km/h over a 1KM ice strip..on normal tires not spikes

 

[PS]

It was also worlds fastest car when it debuted.

 

[Dave A]

Live4Speed, you disappoint me. I wasn't talking about the modern Listers in the least. In fact, I very rarely do (save for the LMP occasionally)

Oh, ofcourse, I feel ashamed to have missed that . Mind you it was half one in the morning.

 

[MazdaZXi]

Has anyone in the UK seen this week's Auto Express? They've driven the Veyron on one of Bugatti's final tests in the US desert.

0-60mph in 2.5 seconds, 0-120mph in 7.5, and they managed a top speed of 220mph because the high altitude meant the air was too thin to provide full-power...

Their verdict says that it's impressive, but the Enzo and Carrera GT are better alternatives.

It also says that 70 have been sold, so VW Group isn't going to make much of a return on its investment, even if they're more than £800,000 each...

I'd post a link to the mag's website, but the article isn't posted on there. Well, I couldn't find it...

 

[G.T]

Plus, the verdict was 4/5.

 

[TheCracker]

Plus, the verdict was 4/5.

I think i'd want 5/5 if i was forking out £800,000.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Cracker dont you go to school? I think most mags will give it 4/5 or 9/10 just because of its high price comapred to enzo and carrera.

 

[Dave A]

It depends what spects their basing their opinions on, if they're comparing it to the Enzo and CGT then they can't mark it sa better because they're race cars for the road, the Veyron is not. I've read the review and I think they made the wrong comparisons. Also as Young_Warrior said, you can't really give an 800k car 5/5 for price alone. As for them only selling 70 of them, thats so far, they will sell a few more.

 

[MazdaZXi]

It depends what spects their basing their opinions on, if they're comparing it to the Enzo and CGT then they can't mark it sa better because they're race cars for the road, the Veyron is not. I've read the review and I think they made the wrong comparisons. Also as Young_Warrior said, you can't really give an 800k car 5/5 for price alone. As for them only selling 70 of them, thats so far, they will sell a few more.

It comes across that the Bug is an outstanding engineering showcase, but if someone has £800,000 burning a hole in their back pocket(!), then the Enzo and Porsche are going to give you more of an experience in terms of driving pleasure. I guess its hard to offer a rival to the Veyron as its in a league of its own, much like the Royale of the 1930s.

I doubt they'll get much past 70 sales though, and i'd be really surprised if the order books reached three figures. How many McLaren F1s left the factory compared to predicted sales?

 

[Dave A]

The McLaren F1 was a failure in business terms, it fell far short of it's target sales, however that was back when supercars suddenly stopped being investments. Right now cars like the Enzo are becoming that again, the Veyron will probably reach 100, it's going to be in production for a few years, but for it's price it won't go much over that.

 

[TheCracker]

Cracker dont you go to school?

Not at 33 i don't

I think most mags will give it 4/5 or 9/10 just because of its high price comapred to enzo and carrera.

I think once a car is sold at anything over £180k the price becomes a moot point and irrelevant as a value-for-money arguement.

Any 2 seat, mid-engined, +200mph car will be considered a supercar rather than a luxury car - no matter how many diamonds are glued to the dash or how many exotic dead animals went into upholstering the interior.

 

[Dave A]

Even supercars don't all stive for the same goal. To class trhe Veyron and the Enzo as the same type of car is frankly, stupid. And what does the engine being in the middle have to do with the car being a luxury car or not, front engined 2 seaters are classed as luxury cars that can do 2000Mph+. As for the price, it does not become a moot point after 180k, I've seen a millionaire turn down a Zonda beause it was too expensive, if it was 50k less he said he'd have given it more thought.

 

[TheCracker]

Even supercars don't all stive for the same goal. To class trhe Veyron and the Enzo as the same type of car is frankly, stupid. And what does the engine being in the middle have to do with the car being a luxury car or not, front engined 2 seaters are classed as luxury cars that can do 2000Mph+. As for the price, it does not become a moot point after 180k, I've seen a millionaire turn down a Zonda beause it was too expensive, if it was 50k less he said he'd have given it more thought.

Name me another +200mph, mid-engined, Luxury 2-seater?

Its a moot point because these cars are reviewed by guys who can't afford and never will be able to afford to spend 180k on a car.

 

[Dave A]

Theres been a couple of miod engined luxury cars that have kept up with the supercars of their day in the past. However that doesn't answer my question, what does the engine position have to do with the car being classed as luxury or not, the answer is nothing, it's the qulaity of the car, the materials used the comfort ect that determine that. As for the price, whether the reviewers can afford the car or not is moot, a lot of them probably can't affford a 100k car, does that mean price is moot when the Ferrari F430 is concerned, absolutely not. If an aspect is moot or not is down to how the potential owners will percieve it, if somone is interested in a Veyron and decides 800k is too much, then regardless of if he has 800k to spend or not, the price is important, the price is a large factor and the Veyron being the most expensive car on the market is not moot.

 

[TheCracker]

Theres been a couple of miod engined luxury cars that have kept up with the supercars of their day in the past.

...i'm still waiting for examples, with two seats.

However that doesn't answer my question, what does the engine position have to do with the car being classed as luxury or not, the answer is nothing, it's the qulaity of the car, the materials used the comfort ect that determine that. As for the price, whether the reviewers can afford the car or not is moot, a lot of them probably can't affford a 100k car, does that mean price is moot when the Ferrari F430 is concerned, absolutely not. If an aspect is moot or not is down to how the potential owners will percieve it, if somone is interested in a Veyron and decides 800k is too much, then regardless of if he has 800k to spend or not, the price is important, the price is a large factor and the Veyron being the most expensive car on the market is not moot.

Enzo's, SLR's, CGT's, Zonda's, Murcielagos all use top quality materials and are all hand built. Do you know for sure that a Veyron is more comfortable than any of these other examples? - The Veyron's cockpit looks just as cramped as any of them. Luxury is just as much about 'room' as it is about 'bling'.

An £800k car is a moot point cost wise. Anyone who can consider spending £800k on a VW can also consider an Enzo/SLR/CGT/Zonda. The car mag reviewers know this also, so base their ratings on this principle.

 

[Dave A]

Anyone who can buy a new Mondeo ST220 can also afford a Subaru Impreza, they're both very different cars yet both have a front mounted engine and 4 seats. People still buy Mondeo's. You can argue all you want on price, but the bottom line is that people will turn away from the Veyron simply because of the cost. There was an Enzo or two turned down, the people that were offered them could afford it but decided it wasn't worth the cost. Whats moot about that? As for the Veyron, it's more luxury because it has leather heated seats, power windows, a high class sound system ect. The Enzo is built with high class materilas like carbonfiber but it's bare bones, the Veyron isn't. As for size inside, thats a valid point. Onto other 2 sear mid-engine luxury cars there has been a couple but I'm in a rush and would need to search to find them again. The 959 was considered pretty luxury in it's day and featured ideas that wouldn't be in other road cars for years. Also the Laborghini Espada was, but they were both mid-engined 4 seaters. You still havn't answered my question though, what does the placment of the engine have to do with a car being a luxury car or not?

 

[amp88]

You still havn't answered my question though, what does the placment of the engine have to do with a car being a luxury car or not?

...and you still haven't answered my question from about 100 posts ago even though I reminded you twice about it...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1875103&postcount=143
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1875854&postcount=147

 

[Dave A]

Yeah I did but in a subtle way, by not answering I conceded that you had a good point that I couldnt come back on. The conclusion I came up with was that the Zonda is more luxurious than people may first think, more so than I thought until not too long after thoes posts. It lacks the electronics the Veyron has, but in terms of comfort and upholstry it's quite an impressive machine.

This point I'm making now about engine placment not having any effecton if a car is a luxury car or not is true, theres nothing other than tradition preventing Rolls Royce from making the next Phantom a mid-engined car, would the next phantom suddenly not be a luxury car as a result?

 

[amp88]

Yeah I did but in a subtle way, by not answering I conceded that you had a good point that I couldnt come back on. The conclusion I came up with was that the Zonda is more luxurious than people may first think, more so than I thought until not too long after thoes posts. It lacks the electronics the Veyron has, but in terms of comfort and upholstry it's quite an impressive machine.

As I suspected, but I wondered why you didn't just say that in the first place

 

[Dave A]

Tbh I forgot about it, becasue there was no posts in this thread for a while I didn't come back in. While the thread was active, I was still thinking of answers that I could come back at you with.

 

[TheCracker]

Anyone who can buy a new Mondeo ST220 can also afford a Subaru Impreza, they're both very different cars yet both have a front mounted engine and 4 seats. People still buy Mondeo's. You can argue all you want on price, but the bottom line is that people will turn away from the Veyron simply because of the cost. There was an Enzo or two turned down, the people that were offered them could afford it but decided it wasn't worth the cost. Whats moot about that? As for the Veyron, it's more luxury because it has leather heated seats, power windows, a high class sound system ect. The Enzo is built with high class materilas like carbonfiber but it's bare bones, the Veyron isn't. As for size inside, thats a valid point. Onto other 2 sear mid-engine luxury cars there has been a couple but I'm in a rush and would need to search to find them again. The 959 was considered pretty luxury in it's day and featured ideas that wouldn't be in other road cars for years. Also the Laborghini Espada was, but they were both mid-engined 4 seaters. You still havn't answered my question though, what does the placment of the engine have to do with a car being a luxury car or not?

The point of the argument in the first place was that you stated that the reason it only got 4 out of 5 stars in the AutoExpress test was probably down to its high cost. I stated that the cost is a moot point because when car journalists test cars with such a high price tag it becomes largely irrelivant because only the extreamly wealthy could consider buying them. Yes people will decide not to buy the Veyron because of the cost, but a 4/5 review in AutoExpress is unlikely to put off any potential customers.
People will have already made up their minds weather to buy the car or not - don't VW already have 70 orders for the car, without a single customer spec car being tested in the press?
As for it being a luxury car because it has leather heated seats, power windows, a high class sound system etc - don't the SLR and Zonda also have this level of luxury? - they still get tagged as 'supercars' rather than 'luxury' cars don't they?

*As for the 2 sear mid-engine luxury cars - i'm still waiting....

The 959 was no more luxurious than the standard 911 that it shared its interior with. It did feature ideas that would'nt be in other cars for years, but these were all to do with the chassis and performance - not the interior. Derek Bell famously slagged it off for having a boring interior. Porsche did sell 'Lux' and 'Sport' versions, but the 'Sport' was just a stripped-out, lightweight version, they only made a handful in this configuration.

As for the placement of the engine having to do with a car being a luxury car or not - There hasn't yet being a mid-rear (as opposed to a mid-front like the SLR) made that's been considered a 'luxury car'* - thats why the engine placement is an important factor. A mid-rear configuration really limits how a car can be packaged, you will always be limited with interior space and luggage space will always be minimal too. Cars need a good dose of comfort and practicality to be truely considered 'luxury'.

 

[Dave A]

Actually the 959 had more inside than the standard 911. I dissagree with your argument on price, if the price has any effect on the decision to buy it's not a moot point regardless of how many or few people can afford it in the first place. If theres a noew supercar that can do 300Mph, has more luxuries than a Rolls but costs 10 mill, only a select few could buy it but if none of them did because of the priceis the price a moot point? No.

Your point about the SLR and Zonda being classed as supercars is tryue, but being classed as a supecar doesn't prevent it being a luxury car, the SLR has been classed as luxurious and so forth, you can have a luxury supercar, a luxury supercar is still very different to an Enzo or CGT. Also the Lamorghini Espada is a luxury car. The engine was at the back but not over the rear axel, it was also a 4 seater.

There a few 4 seater miod-engined luxury cars about even a Ferrari or two that are considered by the press and Grand-Tourers, the same as Astno Martins, to be a Grand tourer luxury and comfort is a large part of the package. As for mid-engine 2 seater luxury cars, there is a couple about but they are obscure and if I could remember the names of them I would post them but I don't remember the names off the top of my head.