The war on ISIS.

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That's not the get out of jail free card that you want it to be. We are talking about a former soldier going into an active war zone. There are laws that govern conditions under which a country can take action in a war. By not prosecuting the man, the Netherlands would be recognising him as an active agent, and that could be interpreted as a declaration of war.

But he exactly that, a former soldier, he no longer works for or represents the government (at least as a soldier) so you can't claim his actions represent the government or country. Unless you're suggesting there's one rule for civilians who used to be soldiers, and one rule for civilians who've never been soldiers.
 
What kind of message does that send? "It's okay for a private citizen to fight against ISIL, but it's not okay for a private citizen to fight with ISIL." And how do you think that message is going to be interpreted by ISIL and their sympathisers? Poorly, for sure.

His intentions might have been good, but the road to hell is paved with the best intentions. Had he been allowed to go free, it would have had serious long-term consequences.

Why does he get arrested and those who fought for IS not?

Double standards.

Why does he get arrested and the dozens of returning Kurds who fought against IS not?

Double standards.

How about the pilots we have sent to bomb the crap out of IS?
 
Why does he get arrested and those who fought for IS not?

Double standards.
Show me evidence.

Why does he get arrested and the dozens of returning Kurds who fought against IS not?

Double standards.
Show me evidence.

How about the pilots we have sent to bomb the crap out of IS?
They are acting with the authority of the state, in accordance with the rules of engagement and the Geneva Convention. Their actions are considered legal.

But he exactly that, a former soldier, he no longer works for or represents the government (at least as a soldier) so you can't claim his actions represent the government or country.
I'm not - but the law might.
 
@Spurgy 777

Although I agree with the sentiment of going out and getting them on your own, but you do have to understand that there are rules to war, and those that can participate.

Levee en masse in the Geneva convention is defined as the people of any state uprising to defend from an invading force. Here, you can find out what most states define as their interpretation to such law, and whether or not such action is legal. In the case of the Netherlands, this is how it is defined:
The Military Manual (1993) of the Netherlands states that participants in a levée en masse are considered as combatants if “they carry arms openly and comply with the humanitarian law of war”.
The Military Manual (2005) of the Netherlands states that combatants include: “the population of an unoccupied area which spontaneously takes up arms when the enemy approaches, to repel the invading troops. This is called a mass uprising. The requirement is that they openly bear arms and obey the rules of the humanitarian law of war.”

However, this is only for such invading forces. Someone going out to kill someone, no matter the cause of action, is no different than me or you traveling to Mongolia to find and hunt someone out there to kill. It's no different, just because of the actions they commit..
 
Show me evidence.

Clickie, brush up your Dutch.

I must add, and this is partially me missing a piece of important info. The former soldier has been arrested because he kept an online journal of his fights. The same goes for 1 returned Jihadi, who has been arrested because he posted a photo of himself holding a AK. All the other returnees aren't arrested, because apparently it's up the the county they live in what to do with them, which I find odd.

Show me evidence.

Clickie. Again. Dutch.

If a Kurd goes to fight for the PKK, there is a possibility that he can face prosecution because the PKK is a terrorist organisation. However, in this case the chance is very slim, because their fight is against Jihadism, which is apparently more dangerous than the PKK.

If a Kurd goes there to fight for something like the Kurdish army he is in the same boat as the Dutch F16 pilots.

The lawyer interviewed in the article also mentions that is really complicated because of the US support towards the PKK and the other Kurdish groups.
 
Russian FSB forces in North Caucasus are using a ground drone. Looks primitive, but I don't know how effective it is :D
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Another counter-terrorist operation was reported today in Nalchik, KBR. Lately, this city had been often reported about activity of pro-ISIS insurgents.
 
However, this is only for such invading forces. Someone going out to kill someone, no matter the cause of action, is no different than me or you traveling to Mongolia to find and hunt someone out there to kill. It's no different, just because of the actions they commit..
If I go to Mongolia and kill someone it's murder. If I go to Syria and someone is shooting at me and trying to kill me it's self defence no?
 
Why are you in Syria in the first place?
And why is that quote not directed towards me?
I have no idea how Sanji's name got in there. Must have gotten conflated with another quote from another thread.

"I was just visiting Syria, guys started shooting at me, someone handed me an AK47 and I started shooting back".
 
I have no idea how Sanji's name got in there. Must have gotten conflated with another quote from another thread.

"I was just visiting Syria, guys started shooting at me, someone handed me an AK47 and I started shooting back".
Either way, you traveled to Syria looking for trouble
 
What kind of message does that send? "It's okay for a private citizen to fight against ISIL, but it's not okay for a private citizen to fight with ISIL." And how do you think that message is going to be interpreted by ISIL and their sympathisers? Poorly, for sure.

His intentions might have been good, but the road to hell is paved with the best intentions. Had he been allowed to go free, it would have had serious long-term consequences.
You are operating under the idea that ISIL is a nation, but in reality they are a paramilitary organization.

Regular war rules and rules of engagement are not defined on this conflict because: A)ISIL is not a country, it's and organization, B)ISIL can be considered as an illegal organization, as such it's member are weighted legally by crimes they are associated with. I get that the idea of "kill the ISIS member at will and get a free pass" is rather ludicrous, but given the current environment I can't help but think that anti-criminal organization require support to counter illegal activities (among which there are several crimes associated with the organization that can be punished by execution).

It's a "law abiding citizen" case, the difference here is that this ... citizen was reinforcing anti-criminal operations by supporting local law enforcements, which makes him more like a mercenary or bounty hunter (charging no money) rather than someone just killing people at will. Thus the difference and thus the double standards that sometimes apply.



All these problems are UN problems after all, they have the responsibility of dealing with this crap and people is getting tired of the ineffectiveness, so they are doing it themselves. If they don't want mercenaries and crazy people getting there then should deal with that already.
 
The former soldier has been arrested because he kept an online journal of his fights

Which is probably the reason he's being prosecuted - the evidence exists where it might be impossible to gather for other suspects. The important word in this particular discussion is

mercenary

which makes it an illegal act in international law.
 
It's a "law abiding citizen" case, the difference here is that this ... citizen was reinforcing anti-criminal operations by supporting local law enforcements, which makes him more like a mercenary or bounty hunter (charging no money) rather than someone just killing people at will.
I'm pretty sure ISIL sympathisers will justify their actions in exactly the same way - that they are reinforcing anti-criminal operations by supporting the entity that they believe has the moral authority in the area.

What you're forgetting is that while we consider ISIL to be terrorists, ISIL and their sympathisers don't think of themselves as terrorists. They believe that they are justified just as vehemently as we believe that they are not. There is an expression that the law is an ass - that it is stubborn and inflexible. It must be impartial and it must be applied equally and evenly. As soon as you start applying the law differently because it is convenient or popular to do so, you undermine the entire legal system, and you undermine society as a whole. We become everything that the terrorists say we are - hypocrites who think that it is okay for one person to go off and fight for what they believe in, but not okay for another person to do it.

Have you ever seen Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds? There's a scene where the Basterds question a German soldier about troop movements. When he refuses, they execute him by beating him to death with a baseball bat. The German soldier is presented as being loyal, polite and honourable; all qualities that the Allies valued. He just happens to be German and therefore fighting for the Axis. Meanwhile, the Basterds are established as the protagonists of the film and represent the Allied war effort. They're cast as the good guys, but they do horrendous things. The underlying message of the film is that the Allies could have done more to fight the Nazis - but it wouls have meant ignoring the law and putting aside morality, and by doing so, they would have been no better than the Nazis. I believe that the same applies here: we cannot ignore our own laws and dispense with inconvenient morality to defeat ISIL because then we lower ourselves to their level.
 
There's no law against travelling is there?
Under the premise of "I was just visiting..." Seems like in the first place, since oh I don't know, we're talking about going to Syria to kill, that you weren't just on a business trip.

Well, assumptions sure are strong here.
You haven't read anything have you.

You are operating under the idea that ISIL is a nation, but in reality they are a paramilitary organization.

Regular war rules and rules of engagement are not defined on this conflict because: A)ISIL is not a country, it's and organization, B)ISIL can be considered as an illegal organization, as such it's member are weighted legally by crimes they are associated with. I get that the idea of "kill the ISIS member at will and get a free pass" is rather ludicrous, but given the current environment I can't help but think that anti-criminal organization require support to counter illegal activities (among which there are several crimes associated with the organization that can be punished by execution).

It's a "law abiding citizen" case, the difference here is that this ... citizen was reinforcing anti-criminal operations by supporting local law enforcements, which makes him more like a mercenary or bounty hunter (charging no money) rather than someone just killing people at will. Thus the difference and thus the double standards that sometimes apply.



All these problems are UN problems after all, they have the responsibility of dealing with this crap and people is getting tired of the ineffectiveness, so they are doing it themselves. If they don't want mercenaries and crazy people getting there then should deal with that already.
Good point on putting the "Organization" label over it...


I guess I can grab all my guns now, and head to Mexico to kill the gangs down there, since according to Trump, and about everyone else in the GOP, we're having a "war on drugs." So under your understanding of the situation, any illegal formed group can be sought after and slaughtered... scot-free
 
I know in Australia it's illegal to go to Syria right now.
Not entirely. They strongly urge you not to go, and the only assistance you can get if you do and **** hits the fan is from the Romanian embassy in Damascus, or the Australian one in Cairo.
It is illegal to help a terrorist organisation, and illegal to go to the province of al Raqqa, but not illegal to enter the country as a whole. Obviously, doing so will raise lots of red flags and make travelling anywhere else difficult afterwards.
 
which makes it an illegal act in international law.
And here is where it gets interesting ...

What is the definition of "Mercenary"? because pre-ISIL and ISIS Iraq had private military company operations in the area supporting US military and civilian activities (included but not limited to the whole Blackwater scandal). Non US military elements were operating to support foreign government operations, under a licensed permission granted by the invading country (Because the US was invading Iraq, not liberating it from anything).

Under Iraqi law, those invading forces were technically mercenaries so there is an understanding of this word that need to be accounted for, if there is a warrant or bounty on suspected terrorist and they pass or assists in such activities (and they are not members of the military) they effectively become bounty hunters (which is not a crime by international law due to them being support of local law enforcement).

I guess I can grab all my guns now, and head to Mexico to kill the gangs down there, since according to Trump, and about everyone else in the GOP, we're having a "war on drugs." So under your understanding of the situation, any illegal formed group can be sought after and slaughtered... scot-free
So under your understanding this can't be done, however the we had a similar Mexico gang getting out of control situation, it didn't stop until US and local law enforcement joint forces to take down cartel leaders, and I believe you need to read more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Escobar#Search_Bloc_and_Los_Pepes

What you don't seem to understand is that there is applicable local law that does not follow international law, everyone does it, even the US.
I'm pretty sure ISIL sympathisers will justify their actions in exactly the same way - that they are reinforcing anti-criminal operations by supporting the entity that they believe has the moral authority in the area.

What you're forgetting is that while we consider ISIL to be terrorists, ISIL and their sympathisers don't think of themselves as terrorists. They believe that they are justified just as vehemently as we believe that they are not. There is an expression that the law is an ass - that it is stubborn and inflexible. It must be impartial and it must be applied equally and evenly. As soon as you start applying the law differently because it is convenient or popular to do so, you undermine the entire legal system, and you undermine society as a whole. We become everything that the terrorists say we are - hypocrites who think that it is okay for one person to go off and fight for what they believe in, but not okay for another person to do it.
What you are forgetting is that ISIL are terrorists; there is Human trafficking, drug dealing, oil smuggling, genocide of minority groups. Just as the Nazi Leaders and commanders ISIS pretty much got sentenced to death by Iraqi, Syrian and International law when they starting the activities, so local law enforcements will not bother if there is assistance while fighting the problem.

I understand is a chaotic situation, however applicable law is subjective by who is doing the fighting and it's side, this environment is created by the lack a serious international ground force supporting operations, in other words, this will keep happening unless there is an international force on the ground.
Have you ever seen Tarantino's Inglorious Basterds? There's a scene where the Basterds question a German soldier about troop movements. When he refuses, they execute him by beating him to death with a baseball bat. The German soldier is presented as being loyal, polite and honourable; all qualities that the Allies valued. He just happens to be German and therefore fighting for the Axis. Meanwhile, the Basterds are established as the protagonists of the film and represent the Allied war effort. They're cast as the good guys, but they do horrendous things. The underlying message of the film is that the Allies could have done more to fight the Nazis - but it wouls have meant ignoring the law and putting aside morality, and by doing so, they would have been no better than the Nazis. I believe that the same applies here: we cannot ignore our own laws and dispense with inconvenient morality to defeat ISIL because then we lower ourselves to their level.
So your idea is that killing ISIS is bad because they ... are people, and is morally wrong to kill them.

What you forget is that each ISIS fighter is defending it's 2-3 wifes given by ISIS command, is the same person operating to control areas and population that will later be taxed and it's population subjected to ISIS rule (so they become slaves, or if they failed the aforementioned Islamic moral code they will end up dead).

So no, I don't have a problem with ISIS fighters getting killed by mercenaries, those are two ends of the moral spectrum in a place where morality is just a word rather than a set of values, there is no such thing as a "A lovely ISIS fighter" who thinks is defending its bible and the sex slave wifes given to him by Clerics leading this nonsense.

ISIS religion is not the same Islam faith other country practices (even Islamic countries say this), so can we people stop assuming that fighters are indoctrinated when in much of the cases they are not, and they are just looking resources to keep their nonsense going (and the truly god awful perks that comes with it).
 
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So under your understanding this can't be done, however the we had a similar Mexico gang getting out of control situation, it didn't stop until US and local law enforcement joint forces to take down cartel leaders,
What don't you understand about this? I'm having a hard time grasping how you believe a citizen and law enforcement are the same...

What you are saying is no different than us finding Saddam in his hole. However, the situation is about a citizen. Sure, he was an ex-soldier, but he was discharged, and no longer maintains that designation.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is applicable local law that does not follow international law, everyone does it, even the US.
No, you're having trouble understanding a lone wolf citizen going out and killing people is not the same as the military being given orders to do such.
 
What don't you understand about this? I'm having a hard time grasping how you believe a citizen and law enforcement are the same...

What you are saying is no different than us finding Saddam in his hole. However, the situation is about a citizen. Sure, he was an ex-soldier, but he was discharged, and no longer maintains that designation.
So you are not reading properly and I think you don't understand the term "Private military force" or "paramilitary", something that the US considers legal as (shockingly) as you can legally own a gun and use it to kill an opposing force or fend yourself against an assailant attack.

And again, what were private military corporations then? They were technically civilian contractors hired to secure infrastructure, and how is that different from an individual when in the US an individual can create these kinds of corporations?
No, you're having trouble understanding a lone wolf citizen going out and killing people is not the same as the military being given orders to do such.
And what you don't understand is that this concept is not applicable for this situation.
 
So you are not reading properly and I think you don't understand the term "Private military force" or "paramilitary", something that the US considers legal as (shockingly) as you can legally own a gun and use it to kill an opposing force or fend yourself against an assailant attack.

And again, what were private military corporations then? They were technically civilian contractors hired to secure infrastructure, and how is that different from an individual when in the US an individual can create these kinds of corporations?

And what you don't understand is that this concept is not applicable for this situation.
Why are you going so far off tangent from something that never happened? You do know what we're talking about right?
Does this sound like any sort of paramilitary activity?


You have seemed to have gotten some sort of bug in your ear telling you he's still an enlisted man (which he isn't) and it's allowable to let a rogue soldier go on the lose and kill, regardless of cause, allowable (which it isn't).


Everything you have posted so far has been military, law enforcement, or contracted militia to go out and kill, not the average joe-blow with his 30-06 remington and his orange vest..
 
Why are you going so far off tangent from something that never happened? You do know what we're talking about right?
Does this sound like any sort of paramilitary activity?
Are you even reading what you are referencing?

YPG is a paramilitary organization, an army with no nation composed by foreigners.
You have seemed to have gotten some sort of bug in your ear telling you he's still an enlisted man (which he isn't) and it's allowable to let a rogue soldier go on the lose and kill, regardless of cause, allowable (which it isn't).
Military affiliations have nothing to do with it, and even then is stupid to think that only soldiers backed by a nation have the right of killing people, and that just shows how stupid the American model of foreign military intervention is.

You believe that civilians do not make part of fighting forces, shockingly though he wasn't fighting for the Dutch and he wasn't backed by them, nor did he needed an active military license to fight terrorists. Even then you are not even reading what you are sourcing ...
...was later released by a judge, on condition he surrender his passport.
Which undermines your whole argument, he gives up his Dutch citizenship at the sake of being considered a part of the YPG forces. Being part of a military force has nothing to do with it (and to the argument as a whole, he could be a nut-job with a rifle but the same can be said of someone in the police or military).
Everything you have posted so far has been military, law enforcement, or contracted militia to go out and kill, not the average joe-blow with his 30-06 remington and his orange vest..
Militia is by definition "average joe-blow" groups of individuals fighting for a cause.
 
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