The war on ISIS.

[mustafur]

No idea what kind of Sarcasm this is.

 

[Scaff]

3'000.000 Slave workers from Bangladesh and India in Dubai, not to mention the ones imported from North Korea for the world cup.
About 100 people beheaded for not following Sharia Law (minor offenses in the US, most of the times not even that).
The Civil War in Yemen (that's not real .... oh wait, it is).

You will never see that in a western media outlet exposes this, specially stuff about the Emirates before of the 2020 world cup, and the Formula 1 GPs located in the region, not to mention the other business ventures that happen there, which also happens to involve human trafficking.

Lets see shall we:

First no World Cup in 2020 exists, its Russia in 2018 and Qatar in 2022 (I hate football and still know that much)

North Korean Workers in Qatar
http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...-koreans-working-state-sponsored-slaves-qatar

Deaths at World Cup sites in Qatar:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/03/qatar-world-cup-deaths_n_7500920.html

Saudi exicutes at all time high:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...udi-arabia-20-year-high-amnesty-international

Saudi and Iran in proxy war in Yeman:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-al-qaeda-winning-in-saudi-iran-proxy-war-in-yemen-1441877581

UK investigated for breaking law by supplying arms to Saudi:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-lawyers-warn-break-international-law-yemen

F1 protests at Bahrain GP:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22237478

Similarities between ISIS and Saudi:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...al-punishments-compare-to-the-islamic-states/

If you like I can supply far more links, from far more Western media outlets, as such a claim that "You will never see that in a western media outlet...." is quite simply not even remotely correct.

You may not have seen it, but it most certainly does exist and its not exactly small or in the fringes of the media outlets either.

 

[Akira AC]

No idea what kind of Sarcasm this is.

You wouldn't understand it, failing to recognize the Irony.

Regional disputes and problems can be traced back all the way to the Ottoman empire and the establishment of UK colonies there, so it doesn't go 60 years as you said, but rather 100 years when European Empires still existed.

If you want to go back 60 years and blame the Russians, while the Americans were stupid enough to fund the very same people we are fighting (Aramco and Saudi financing for extremist started in 1954, when the tribal priests stubble upon the massive oil reserves in the region), I can't say that you are correct.

Lets see shall we:

First no World Cup in 2020 exists, its Russia in 2018 and Qatar in 2022 (I hate football and still know that much)

North Korean Workers in Qatar
http://www.theguardian.com/global-d...-koreans-working-state-sponsored-slaves-qatar

Deaths at World Cup sites in Qatar:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/06/03/qatar-world-cup-deaths_n_7500920.html

Saudi exicutes at all time high:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...udi-arabia-20-year-high-amnesty-international

Saudi and Iran in proxy war in Yeman:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/is-al-qaeda-winning-in-saudi-iran-proxy-war-in-yemen-1441877581

UK investigated for breaking law by supplying arms to Saudi:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-lawyers-warn-break-international-law-yemen

F1 protests at Bahrain GP:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22237478

Similarities between ISIS and Saudi:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...al-punishments-compare-to-the-islamic-states/

If you like I can supply far more links, from far more Western media outlets, as such a claim that "You will never see that in a western media outlet...." is quite simply not even remotely correct.

You may not have seen it, but it most certainly does exist and its not exactly small or in the fringes of the media outlets either.

Those are headlines that occupy at best 1 or 2 days in these websites, you can't tell me that with a straight face that the media will be talking about Saudi Arabia and its role in this whole thing on a daily basis, also such reports are never broadcast on TV stations or TV channels, or mainstream media for that matter, as online media is greatly different from more traditional TV media.

Besides, if there was enough public attention about these matters, when was the last time the UK parliament held a session about the weapon sales to the Saudis? or US congress? or the UN for that matter?

 

[mustafur]

Coverage and public attention are two different things.

 

[Scaff]

Those are headlines that occupy at best 1 or 2 days in these websites, you can't tell me that with a straight face that the media will be talking about Saudi Arabia and its role in this whole thing on a daily basis, also such reports are never broadcast on TV stations or TV channels, or mainstream media for that matter, as online media is greatly different from more traditional TV media.

It's covered plenty on the TV and Radio news here in the UK.

It also makes the print media over here as well.

Besides, if there was enough public attention about these matters, when was the last time the UK parliament held a session about the weapon sales to the Saudis? or US congress? or the UN for that matter?

Four days ago for the UK parliament (and that wasn't the first one and certainly will not be the last)......
http://www.parliament.uk/business/n...on-arm-sales-to-saudi-arabia-28-january-2016/

....the UN have just published a report investigating it.....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...trikes-in-yemen-raises-questions-over-uk-role

.....and the US Congress started investigating it in December....
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/10...ess-to-review-arms-shipments-to-saudi-arabia/

...........all of which were covered by the western media that you claimed never mentioned it.

All your doing now is moving goal posts. You stated that it is never covered in the Western media, and that is simply not true, not even remotely so.

 

[Akira AC]

Coverage and public attention are two different things.

Yeah, but they are co-dependent, not individual elements.

Example 1, USSR media never talked about casualties during the afghan invasion, this by deviating attention from it.
Example 2, US media never talked about the casualties and the status of Iraq between 2001 and 2005, until Fallujah happened.

Public attention relies on exposure, coverage makes sure that there is enough exposure to get public attention. Two different things, but largely interconnected.

 

[Akira AC]

Four days ago for the UK parliament......
http://www.parliament.uk/business/n...on-arm-sales-to-saudi-arabia-28-january-2016/

....the UN have just published a report investigating it.....
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...trikes-in-yemen-raises-questions-over-uk-role

.....and the US Congress started investigating it in December....
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/10...ess-to-review-arms-shipments-to-saudi-arabia/

...........all of which were covered by the western media that you claimed never mentioned it.

All your doing now is moving goal posts. You stated that it is never covered in the Western media, and that is simply not true, not even remotely so.

Dates go 2015/12/10, then 2016/01/27 and 2016/01/28, where were these discussions in 2012, or 2014, or 1999?

This started getting media attention until the last couple of months, what happened before that? because last time I checked the whole Islamic terror to the west it's been around since 1992, it's been nearly 25 years since then and just now they are starting to look into those issues.

I will retract if there is mentions of Saudi Arabia prior to 2010 in the west, for me (and pretty much everyone) Saudi Arabia has been a information void for the last 50 years, no one know what happens there, the only thing we know is that they have a lot of money and crazy Islamic laws, which rings a bell when you consider Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra



(PS:sorry for DP)

 

[TenEightyOne]

I will retract if there is mentions of Saudi Arabia prior to 2010 in the west, for me (and pretty much everyone) Saudi Arabia has been a information void for the last 50 years, no one know what happens there

Consider it retracted, I'd say. I think it's possibly your own awareness that's at fault - that's the only reason I can think of for you having made such a ludicrous claim in the first place.

The first link needs expanding when you open it, I followed it back as far as 2000 and then got bored. The second shows more specific stories (+SAUDI +WORKERS) and clearly lists over a decade of stories right on the first page.

 

[Akira AC]

Consider it retracted, I'd say. I think it's possibly your own awareness that's at fault - that's the only reason I can think of for you having made such a ludicrous claim in the first place.

Are you for real?

I like how it jumps from 2000 to 2016.

I saw the other link, just 3 articles, between 2000 and 2010, just 3, considering all that happens there, I wonder why they have to conceal the rest of the articles instead of giving a brief summary in several of them.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I like how it jumps from 2000 to 2016.

Doesn't show like that for me - possibly region based. Try this one.

Whatever, your claim that there has been no news in the west about Saudi before 2010 is still utter rubbish.

 

[Akira AC]

Doesn't show like that for me - possibly region based. Try this one.

Can you screencap it?

Edit: So it turns out that most of this stuff is region locked, had to use a proxy server.

 

[Akira AC]

Whatever, your claim that there has been no news in the west about Saudi before 2010 is still utter rubbish.

And yes it is, however you can't deny that the issue is not given the appropriate exposure before.

(Double post again, ****ing browser)

 

[mustafur]

None of that was region locked as it worked for me, maybe it's Columbia's Filter.

I know when I was in Indonesia last week nearly all news sites where blocked.

 

[Scaff]

Dates go 2015/12/10, then 2016/01/27 and 2016/01/28, where were these discussions in 2012, or 2014, or 1999?

This started getting media attention until the last couple of months, what happened before that? because last time I checked the whole Islamic terror to the west it's been around since 1992, it's been nearly 25 years since then and just now they are starting to look into those issues.

I will retract if there is mentions of Saudi Arabia prior to 2010 in the west, for me (and pretty much everyone) Saudi Arabia has been a information void for the last 50 years, no one know what happens there, the only thing we know is that they have a lot of money and crazy Islamic laws, which rings a bell when you consider Al-Qaeda and Al-Nusra



(PS:sorry for DP)

You asked when this was last discussed, so I showed you when it was last discussed.

How many times are you going to move the goal posts on this one?

The western media discusses these subjects, has done for as long as I can remember. The first one I can recall was the Saudi execution of a princess for adulatory, and that was so ignored that it filled the press for weeks (yes TV, Radio and Print) and they even made a docu-drama about it and aired it on UK TV in 1980 (I was ten, sorry I can't remember any before that first hand).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_Princess

That they seem to be locked out in your country/region says a lot more about that, than it does about the wider western media.

 

[Johnnypenso]

No idea what kind of Sarcasm this is.

Because I said democracy is the way forward, I didn't say anything about invading and taking over. Do you not think democracy is the way forward?

 

[mustafur]

Because I said democracy is the way forward, I didn't say anything about invading and taking over. Do you not think democracy is the way forward?

Not really because I know what is required for that to happen.

 

[Dotini]

Democracy can mean many things. In classical Athens, it meant men owning slaves and no women voting. In Sparta, it was far crueler yet. George W Bush found he could not install democracy in Iraq. The Swiss, who practice the purest sort of democracy, are advantaged by small numbers of rich, well armed, homogenous people, highly defensible borders and no enemies. We do not know the world to come. But it is highly unlikely to be particularly democratic.

 

[mustafur]

Democracy has some massive flaws, in some cases it works in others it doesn't even end up democratic in the slightest.

The structure of how it is democratic in the first place needs to change for it to work effectively.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Democracy has some massive flaws, in some cases it works in others it doesn't even end up democratic in the slightest.

The structure of how it is democratic in the first place needs to change for it to work effectively.

Where does democracy not work in your opinion? And if "it" doesn't end up democratic in the slightest in some places then it's not democratic and you're talking about something else. So if democracy is not the answer, I ask again, what is?

 

[BobK]

Where does democracy not work in your opinion? And if "it" doesn't end up democratic in the slightest in some places then it's not democratic and you're talking about something else. So if democracy is not the answer, I ask again, what is?

.

it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time....

 

[squadops]

I'm partial to a constitutional republic tbh.

 

[Dotini]

We already seem to be entering a new era of feudalism, where the middle class of skilled and organized workers is fewer, and the growing herds of lower classes are in thrall to wealthy individuals and corporations.

 

[mustafur]

Where does democracy not work in your opinion? And if "it" doesn't end up democratic in the slightest in some places then it's not democratic and you're talking about something else. So if democracy is not the answer, I ask again, what is?

I never said there was a better option but it's failings are significant.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I never said there was a better option but it's failings are significant.

What are it's failings?

 

[Dotini]

What are it's failings?

The first and foremost failure of democracy is tyranny of the majority.

But we have come far afield of the thread topic of War on ISIS. If the topic of democracy is warranted, it should all be moved to a new thread.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The first and foremost failure of democracy is tyranny of the majority.

But we have come far afield of the thread topic of War on ISIS. If the topic of democracy is warranted, it should all be moved to a new thread.

Rather than answering in single sentences, why don't you flesh it out a bit. Show us some examples of this tyranny of the majority.

 

[Dotini]

Rather than answering in single sentences, why don't you flesh it out a bit. Show us some examples of this tyranny of the majority.

Iraq is a good example. They took a vote and the majority Shiites won. They immediately began to lord it over the former bosses the Sunni, and pretty soon a civil war broke out.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Show us some examples of this tyranny of the majority.

It's a common enough phrase that @Dotini is unlikely enough to need to. Furthermore, as he observed, this is going way off-topic.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Iraq is a good example. They took a vote and the majority Shiites won. They immediately began to lord it over the former bosses the Sunni, and pretty soon a civil war broke out.

The government of Syria was first overthrown in 1949 by a military coup funded by the CIA. Regardless of past history, the answer is, and always will be, democracy. So long as the region is dominated by monotheistic states run by unelected dictators who answer to no one but themselves and highly radicalized clergy, the region will be in chaos. Equal rights for all, free elections and secular governments are the way forward.

 

[Dotini]

Equal rights for all, free elections and secular governments are the way forward.

Of course - in an ideal world of enlightened, prosperous, free and reasonable people. Sometimes, in the ugly world we have, a benevolent dictator is to be preferred. Assad aspired to benevolent dictatorship insofar as protecting the minority rights of Jews, Kurds, Christians and all the forms of Islam. He married a European woman, promoted the rights of women to western dress, use cosmetics, etc, and the rights of men to shave, drink alcohol, etc.