The "war on police" in America

[huskeR32]

I'll reword it for you. How many officers have to be targeted for execution, regardless of the aggregate number of police being killed nationwide in the regular performance of their duties, for there to be a war on police? 5, 10, no number is large enough? How many?

As @TenEightyOne pointed out earlier, the number isn't relevant. For this to be a "war," there would need to be a concerted, cohesive movement that's operating with the express aim of killing police officers. And, outside of the right-wing imagination, that movement doesn't exist.

--

Declared War or (anti-) Police Action, does it really matter?

Yes. Not only is the number of civilians killed so far this year about 15 times the number of police (~550 vs. ~35), but the former number is trending upwards, alarmingly, during the last decade or so, while the latter number is on pace to be the lowest it's been in at least 15 years.

Clearly, police brutality is something we should be talking about in this country. Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, a lot of folks don't want to have that conversation. They like to use big flashy words like "war" to guilt people into agreeing with them; after all, who wants to say they support a war on police?

So, yes, it matters what we call it. It's a problem when we can't have an honest discussion in this country without shouty people dramatizing it and using charged language to distract from the facts.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

@huskeR32, I would be curious to see the number of cops that were targeted and shot by civilians simply because they were cops, versus the number of civilians were targeted and shot by cops simply because they were civilians.

I'm not sure what either number is, but I would be willing to bet the latter number is close to zero.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Declared War or (anti-) Police Action, does it really matter?

Here is another shooting, but the good guys got their man. Can I call the cops the good guys? Reading some of the comments in here, I wonder.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/06/us/las-vegas-police-shooting/index.html?eref=rss_latest

Are you a criminal just because the post office near me was robbed by a civilian yesterday? Are all cops bad because some abuse their authority, ignore their training or act like meat-heads?

I'll reword it for you. How many officers have to be targeted for execution, regardless of the aggregate number of police being killed nationwide in the regular performance of their duties, for there to be a war on police? 5, 10, no number is large enough? How many?

For there to be a war on police there needs to be a war on police. If there's a war there don't need to be kills to prove it so I'd like to reduce my previous answer by one... you need 0 deaths for there to be a war. Fortunately there isn't a war on police, none of the links you provided show any proof that there is - it's just that some of the madder hyperbole includes the word without any proof. There is no concerted public action targetting police officers. Police officer deaths are, happily, at an all-time low and decreasing year on year.

Not everything is, and I use the term without humour in this context, black and white.

@huskeR32, I would be curious to see the number of cops that were targeted and shot by civilians simply because they were cops, versus the number of civilians were targeted and shot by cops simply because they were civilians.

I'm not sure what either number is, but I would be willing to bet the latter number is close to zero.

I imagine you're right but how does that help?

 

[FoolKiller]

How many police officers have to be targeted for execution before there's a "war on police"? What's your number? 5? 10? 40? What's the acceptable number of police officers targeted for execution for you before we call it a pattern or shift in attitude towards police officers?

Before we start playing the numbers game, can you tell me how many police were purposefully assassinated before the media began talking about a War on police and reporting every single incident?

I know of one that happened in my hometown that never got national coverage.

From what I can tell from media reports the war on police narrative is purely a response to the black live matter narrative.

those deaths mind you at least one of them was from a damn drive by shooting by CRIMINALS and she was doing homework.

Odd, I am talking about Aiyana Jones, who was shot during a SWAT raid on her house. The officer was charged for crimes and had the last of them dropped earlier this year.

Yeah it's not a baby's fault for being around,it's the damn parents for engaging in something that would warrant the police or swat to come to the house.It's the parents that endangered the life of that kid.

Well, then it is perfectly acceptable to kill kids, so long as their parents are bad. You are correct, sir. [/sarcasm]

OR

The police could have proper reconnaissance and properly follow training before blindly throwing incendiary devices into homes.

As for the child in the crib; the family was staying with relatives after their house had burned down. It's their fault for choosing between no home and staying with relatives who were involved in drugs, right?

The police were so clueless has to what the situation in the home was that they performed the raid when the guy they were looking for wasn't even home.


My final thought on the "they are criminals" line. Not all crimes are worthy of a death sentence. To act like the sheer act of violating the law is all it takes to put you at risk of being killed is ridiculous. How many laws do you see broken when driving down the road?

Ultimately, this entire thing is the result of three decades of the "War on Drugs." It has cost thousands of lives, billions of dollars, and has ultimately lead to the mistrust of police.


Why do I think that we aren't in a war on police? Because it is still mostly the war on drugs and this is just the latest round of violence and destruction brought on by our government's mistaken policies. Oh sure, some of this has nothing to do with drugs, like Ferguson, but the war on drugs ushered in a whole new era of policing and a response from those breaking the law.


@Garage13, do you disagree that we should scrutinize police every time they kill? I believe that anyone with the legal authority to kill another human should always be watched carefully and held to a high standard.

 

[Joel]

From what I can tell from media reports the war on police narrative is purely a response to the black live matter narrative.

While we're on the semantics topic about using the term "war on police", another interesting thing I've noticed is that when people respond to someone who says "black lives matter", I've never once heard someone say "yes, all lives matter". What I have heard a lot? "No, all lives matter".

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://kdvr.com/2015/09/07/aurora-police-on-alert-after-threatening-call-to-911-dispatch/

The Aurora Police Department was on high alert Monday after a dispatch operator received an alarming and anonymous call. It is a concern for police and something the community should be aware of as well. While the anonymous call is still under investigation, Aurora police are also investigating a shooting from later Sunday night where officers were called to a scene, then shot at. It is unclear if the incidents are related. The alarming threats come as a wave of anti-police sentiment sweeps across the country.

 

[LeMansAid]

While we're on the semantics topic about using the term "war on police", another interesting thing I've noticed is that when people respond to someone who says "black lives matter", I've never once heard someone say "yes, all lives matter". What I have heard a lot? "No, all lives matter".

You make a fair point. Though it makes me wonder, if distilled down to a tag line response - what was the reaction to "Christian lives matter"?..... aka..... https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...e-most-persecuted-people-in-the-world.326308/. Was it "No, all lives matter"? Actually, I think it was far worse than that. More like a "Yeah, but look at what the Christians have done throughout history" sort of dismissiveness.

 

[Joel]

You make a fair point. Though it makes me wonder, if distilled down to a tag line response - what was the reaction to "Christian lives matter"?..... aka..... https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...e-most-persecuted-people-in-the-world.326308/. Was it "No, all lives matter"? Actually, I think it was far worse than that. More like a "Yeah, but look at what the Christians have done throughout history" sort of dismissiveness.

Yeah that's fair, looking back on that thread it's pretty cringy with all the implied comments about the crusades along with Dawkins style edgy atheism comments and such. However, I think the difference there was that the Christianity thread was started by someone with an...interesting posting history to say the least, and to me it mostly read as a "gotcha" with the implication that "the Left" are all hypocrites for apparently not caring about these Christians. I think having an honest discussion about that issue in good faith is one thing, but derailing discussions about largely muslim refugees entering Europe fleeing war in Iraq and Syria is another.

The reason I brought up black lives matter, is because countering it with "all lives matter" is tone deaf. There is an implicit "too" at the end of black lives matter, but changing the phrase to "black lives matter too!" weakens the power of the phrase. I guess it comes back to what I said above about derailing, responding to "black lives matter" with "no, all lives matter" is an attempt to derail the discussion away from discussing the persecution of black people. "Yes, all lives matter" is different in that it acknowledges how sad it is that black lives aren't shown the same respect. I understand why people would say "all lives matter", but generally when it's said it's usually a "no, all lives matter", which is a really frustrating way of derailing the whole discussion.

To tie it back, I think a thread titled "our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world", about Christians being killed by muslims, started by one of the most racist and islamophobic posters I've seen on these boards, is akin to "no, all lives matter". It's not a genuine and good faith attempt to discuss the persecution of Christians in Syria. It's a gotcha meant to show that the PC liberals are reverse racist and they won't criticize muslims for killing Christians. A discussion of Christians killed in Iraq and Syria in a thread about ISIS and their atrocities is a way to discuss the issue in good faith, rather than using Christian persecution as a gotcha to diminish the plight of muslim refugees, or muslims facing persecution in the west.

 

[huskeR32]

what was the reaction to "Christian lives matter"?

Except that's not what that thread was about. Right from the off, KSaiyu was making a claim he couldn't substantiate; namely the title of the thread itself. That claim is what was dismissed, not the value of Christian lives.

 

[LeMansAid]

To tie it back, I think a thread titled "our silence on one of the most persecuted people in the world", about Christians being killed by muslims, started by one of the most racist and islamophobic posters I've seen on these boards, is akin to "no, all lives matter".

Ah, see I don't really care who it is making the statements. Partly for reasons outlined here - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islam-whats-your-view-on-it.263208/page-83#post-10863398.

A discussion of Christians killed in Iraq and Syria in a thread about ISIS and their atrocities is a way to discuss the issue in good faith, rather than using Christian persecution as a gotcha to diminish the plight of muslim refugees, or muslims facing persecution in the west.

Suspicion is free, but pointing the finger costs. I don't expect people to actually fall for these ruses, but arguments need to amount to a lot more than simply outing the opposing side as a bigoted one. Shouting from opposition soapboxes only creates greater divides - but when people feel that they've been truly heard from below the soapbox, they often come down from theirs, and take a tentative step forward. It depends though if we're on the side of change for the better, or on the side of maintaining an impeccable image.

Except that's not what that thread was about. Right from the off, KSaiyu was making a claim he couldn't substantiate; namely the title of the thread itself. That claim is what was dismissed, not the value of Christian lives.

Looking at it at face value, I didn't see it that way. I think that as I had mentioned in that thread at one point, a "Yeah, we shouldn't forget about those guys" would have been a fair response to the actual content in the thread. As it turns out, people seemed to be clambering over each other to take their shot at special K. It was massively convenient to force the thread to be caught up in an analysis of "the most persecuted" tag, but done at the expense of any goodwill towards a peoples' suffering.

As Judge Judy says to divorced parents - "You've got to love your child, more than you hate each other". Perhaps we need to love the truth more than we hate the liar, and love the persecuted more than we hate their champion of ill repute.

 

[Keef]

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...calls-for-black-lives-matter-violence-on-911/

Members of the Black Lives Matter splinter group 🤬 Yo Flag are threatening violence on September 11 in videos and blog posts. After posting a recent video that called for “open season on killing white people and cops,” a man who identifies himself as “King Noble, Black Supremacist” has put out another bizarre, expletive-laced video where he delivers a monologue of his contempt for both the American and Confederate flags, which he claims are symbols of oppression.

Note: The censorship is mine. Originally it was the "f" word with a single letter removed but the intent was clear and I didn't want an AUP violation.

 

[FoolKiller]

While we're on the semantics topic about using the term "war on police", another interesting thing I've noticed is that when people respond to someone who says "black lives matter", I've never once heard someone say "yes, all lives matter". What I have heard a lot? "No, all lives matter".

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://fox8.com/2015/09/10/police-union-president-cleveland-officers-on-alert-for-ambush/

Cleveland police are on high alert after learning of a credible threat to ambush them on the street. The Cleveland Division of Police isn’t commenting on the situation, but Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association President Steve Loomis said they are taking the information very seriously. He said it involves criminals attempting to provoke officers while riding ATVs and motorcycles. “The word is on the street that they’re going to kick a door on a policeman’s door and entice them to get into some kind of chase,” Loomis said. During and/or at the end of the chase, the criminals would then shoot at officers

This of course follows an actual murder attempt on officers in Cleveland last week:
http://fox8.com/2015/09/02/i-team-shots-fired-at-cleveland-police-officers-overnight/

Cleveland police said one man fired several shots into a marked police car as the officer drove backwards to avoid being hit, according to a release. Cleveland police say the report states that the officers accelerated and drove forward. The man then fired seven to nine shots in rapid succession, police said. The shooter jumped into an Infinity G35, which pulled out in front of another car. The two vehicles tried to get away from police, but the drivers were arrested. The shooter remains on the loose.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Johnnypenso, you still aren't showing a coordinated "war", simply that tragic, isolated gun crimes occur.

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/1...shot-and-killed-after-car-chase/?intcmp=hpbt1

So far, it looks like another assassination of a police officer.

The statement said that Ponder was conducting a traffic stop on the westbound side of Interstate 24 in the western part of the state at about 10:20 p.m. local time. The statement said that the driver who was being stopped took off from the scene, with Ponder pursuing him for approximately nine miles. At that point, according to the statement, the suspect's car abruptly stopped, causing Ponder to crash his car into the vehicle. Police say the driver, identified as 25-year-old Joseph Thomas Johnson-Shanks, of Missouri, got out of the car and started shooting at Ponder, hitting him multiple times. Bullets also struck the hood and windshield of the police cruiser, authorities said.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/1...shot-and-killed-after-car-chase/?intcmp=hpbt1

So far, it looks like another assassination of a police officer.

"Assassination" is an emotive word. Are you sure that the whole episode was constructed by Johnson-Shanks specifically to kill a police officer? Are you intending to extrapolate his actions to be part of the "war" that you imagine is underway?

From your link I think it seems rather like Johnson-Shanks was simply using a firearm to aid his getaway. His actions were appalling and, reading that link, I have little doubt that officers did the right thing in returning fire... but are you quite sure it's "another assassination"? Your excitement seems palpable.

 

[huskeR32]

Are you sure that the whole episode was constructed by Johnson-Shanks specifically to kill a police officer?

Of course it was. He knew that he would be pulled over that particular cop, that the cop would chase him if he fled, that the cop would be following too closely to safely stop when he suddenly slammed on his brakes, and that the resulting car wreck wouldn't injure him enough to thwart his plan.

Don't think too hard about the fact that if he really set out to kill a cop, he could've just shot him right when he got pulled over, and saved himself the whole getting chased, getting in a car wreck, and getting himself killed bit.

This is clearly a well-planned and rehearsed assassination.

 

[ryzno]

He could have been trying to escape by any means necessary.
Did he have any outstanding warrents?
Was the car stolen?
Was there anything in the car he didn't want them to find?
There are plenty of questions to ask before you go and call it an assassination.

Oh and what about "suicide by officer"?

I'm not defending him, just throwing thoughts out there. Also I think I got the suicide line wrong. I don't remember the exact words.

 

[Carbonox]

Well, getting out of the car mid-escape to shoot the cop pursuing you is a pretty good way to get caught soon after, so I call it either complete stupidity, mental problems, or being a dick.

 

[Johnnypenso]

"Assassination" is an emotive word. Are you sure that the whole episode was constructed by Johnson-Shanks specifically to kill a police officer? Are you intending to extrapolate his actions to be part of the "war" that you imagine is underway?

From your link I think it seems rather like Johnson-Shanks was simply using a firearm to aid his getaway. His actions were appalling and, reading that link, I have little doubt that officers did the right thing in returning fire... but are you quite sure it's "another assassination"? Your excitement seems palpable.

I believe all words for murder are emotive. Take your pick. I anticipated your response which is why I bolded the part where I think it turned into an assassination. It's still early obviously, but going by the report from this morning it appears the suspect forced a deliberate car crash in order to put the officer in a position where easy retreat was impossible and then came out guns a blazing. At that point, IMO, it changes from, "using a firearm to aid a getaway" to assassination.

 

[FoolKiller]

So when flight fails and fight becomes the response it becomes assassination?

So many assassinations in the animal kingdom.


EDIT: Though by definition, assassination can work, but it that isn't its common usage.

 

[huskeR32]

I believe all words for murder are emotive.

That's a cop out. "Assassination" implies targeting, for which there is no evidence in this situation. Several other words could have been used instead that would not have implied that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's a cop out. "Assassination" implies targeting, for which there is no evidence in this situation. Several other words could have been used instead that would not have implied that.

Here, take your pick:

as·sas·si·na·tion
əˌsasnˈāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. the action of assassinating someone.
   "the assassination of President Kennedy"
   synonyms: murder, killing, slaughter, homicide;
   political execution, elimination;
   informalhit;
   literaryslaying
   "the assassination of President Garfield"

They all look pretty emotive to me, but maybe one of them suits you better. And unless the shooter was simply firing at random and happened to hit the police officers whose car he just happened to force into an accident, I'd say there was some targeting going.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...by definition, assassination can work, but it that isn't its common usage.

I think @Johnnypenso is trying to make out that this was a pre-meditated killing or an act geared entirely towards the death of a police officer. Personally I'm uncomfortable with him describing it as assassination as it both implies that premeditation (in normal usage) and it elevates the police officer above any other citizen.

The go-to Oxford definition is thus;

At that point, IMO, it changes from, "using a firearm to aid a getaway" to assassination.

I believe therefore that you're using the word to strongly imply a pre-meditation when it seems from all the evidence that this was an impromptu action. The suspect may have been prepared to use a weapon (clearly so, in fact) but that falls far short of an assassination. How long before you use the w-word again?

That's a cop out.

Would you like to re-think that sentence?

 

[huskeR32]

Here, take your pick:

as·sas·si·na·tion
əˌsasnˈāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. the action of assassinating someone.
   "the assassination of President Kennedy"
   synonyms: murder, killing, slaughter, homicide;
   political execution, elimination;
   informalhit;
   literaryslaying
   "the assassination of President Garfield"

They all look pretty emotive to me, but maybe one of them suits you better.

Yes, I acknowledged that they're all "emotive." My point, which you completely ignored, was that there are alternate words that don't imply that it was a targeted (or as @TenEightyOne points out above - premeditated) act.

Shooting. Killing. Homicide. All words that accurately describe what happened, without adding an extra layer of spin that, so far, remains unsubstantiated.

My objection to the word "assassination" echoes my objection to your using the word "war" throughout this entire thread; you're using charged language designed to essentially guilt people into agreeing with your interpretation of these events.

--

EDIT:

Would you like to re-think that sentence?

Oh man, I didn't even realize I did that!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, I acknowledged that they're all "emotive." My point, which you completely ignored, was that there are alternate words that don't imply that it was a targeted (or as @TenEightyOne points out above - premeditated) act.

Shooting. Killing. Homicide. All words that accurately describe what happened, without adding an extra layer of spin that, so far, remains unsubstantiated.

My objection to the word "assassination" echoes my objection to your using the word "war" throughout this entire thread; you're using charged language designed to essentially guilt people into agreeing with your interpretation of these events.

--

EDIT:



Oh man, I didn't even realize I did that!

Your objections are noted.

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/22/us/florida-deputy-fatally-shot/index.html

A Florida deputy was shot from behind and killed after serving a domestic violence injunction Tuesday morning, the Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office said. Deputy Bill Myers, 64, was working in Shalimar when he was struck by multiple bullets, including in his head and back. Smith told Myers that his guns were in his truck. As they walked to the parking lot, Smith shot Myers, according to Ashley. There were four shell casings found at the scene but it wasn't immediately clear if Smith fired each round. Myers' gun wasn't in his holster, the sheriff said.
Because the event had been set up by Smith's attorney, who called authorities to tell them where to meet his client, it appeared Smith wasn't a threat.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/22/us/florida-deputy-fatally-shot/index.html

Isolated incident or arranged by the War Committee?

 

[Sanji Himura]

Houston PD officer was followed, targeted for a robbery by four men. The officer acted first...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...as-being-followed-his-instincts-were-spot-on/