The Wheel Inherent Advantage

[breeminator]

Also I have met players who have a wheel, sometimes quite expensive, who totally suck and get beaten by pad players.

FIA top split races have been won by pad players, so almost every wheel player in the world has at some point been beaten by a pad player.

 

[mellofello9]

 

[MicVic10]

Play with motion sensing and all the issues are fixed. I'm top 1000 most of the time with it, only issue is throttle control on street cars which is admittedly crap, other than that there's no disadvantage as FFB is trash anyway.
The wheel advantage is close to 0 with motion sense.

 

[dcalde78]

I can compete and beat some obvious wheel players in A/S despite the fact that I use analog steering on a DS4. I'm way off the pace off of the leaders in some races sure, but in some I can still dominate. take this week's Race A, Mazda MX5 NDs at Tsukuba for example. I've qualified at 33rd in the world (at least as of a couple of days ago, I've since dropped to at least the 50s but the time gaps aren't huge). it's just a case of getting used to the control scheme you like the most. I'm hoping to upgrade to a G29 at some point relatively soon and I expect my times to drop considerably before I get used to it, at which point I should hopefully improve thanks to the greater precision but there's absolutely no guarantee of that.

 

[BloodRaven]

Play with motion sensing and all the issues are fixed. I'm top 1000 most of the time with it, only issue is throttle control on street cars which is admittedly crap, other than that there's no disadvantage as FFB is trash anyway.
The wheel advantage is close to 0 with motion sense.

Tried that. I had several meetings with the wall.

The wall won.




Every time.

😎

 

[Sn1per666]

I just got a G29 a few days ago and within 1.5 hours I was matching my controller times (I have 130 hours driving in GT7 on controller). After a few more hours I'm surpassing them. The last time I used a wheel was in 2014. The controller gives me more understeer and the wheel more oversteer.

 

[ILLEAGLE_34]

This is such a ridiculous argument that can never be solved. From my experience with a controller you can be MUCH more reckless with your inputs and Way Easier to recover from a slide/mistake. Possibly faster for a single lap. But a wheel does 100% have a huge advantage on consistency. 2 Cents

 

[mellofello9]

This is such a ridiculous argument that can never be solved. From my experience with a controller you can be MUCH more reckless with your inputs and Way Easier to recover from a slide/mistake. Possibly faster for a single lap. But a wheel does 100% have a huge advantage on consistency. 2 Cents

While agreed it's ridiculous, it's still kinda fun to read everyone's input. At the end of the day, or six pages, whichever comes first, this is largely guided by user preference, convenience, availability and perception. At last check, none of these things are concrete standards across the board of 'human-ness' effectively rendering consensus impossible improbable.

What I find interesting is the common theme of 'consistency' that the wheel has on offer, which plays to your comment as well. I'm a controller user and have bested those with wheels just as often as I've been trounced by them. The one big thing I notice (as they disappear on the horizon) is the ability to put down power out of turns sooner and smoother. Between that and the heightened engagement, I am looking forward to getting one.

 

[FrankieStail]

While agreed it's ridiculous, it's still kinda fun to read everyone's input. At the end of the day, or six pages, whichever comes first, this is largely guided by user preference, convenience, availability and perception. At last check, none of these things are concrete standards across the board of 'human-ness' effectively rendering consensus impossible improbable.

What I find interesting is the common theme of 'consistency' that the wheel has on offer, which plays to your comment as well. I'm a controller user and have bested those with wheels just as often as I've been trounced by them. The one big thing I notice (as they disappear on the horizon) is the ability to put down power out of turns sooner and smoother. Between that and the heightened engagement, I am looking forward to getting one.

“Heightened engagement”

You hit the nail on the head with that one, ultimately that’s the main win with wheels and other expensive peripherals.

Any time gained or lost is negligible with wheel over controller, as the broad spread of fast players using either method shows.

In other words, if ultimate results or pace is mainly your aim, I wouldn’t panic about having a wheel or not.

But if like myself, immersion and losing yourself in your favourite titles driving model is your aim, then a wheel and and all the other bits and pieces down the rabbit hole you pick up, really are essential.

 

[breeminator]

In other words, if ultimate results or pace is mainly your aim, I wouldn’t panic about having a wheel or not.

I hadn't used a wheel for quite a while now. Not sure exactly how long, maybe in the region of 2 years of playing all driving games with a controller (stick steering rather than motion steering).

I'd had a go at the current time trial with the Pikes Peak car at Alsace, and did 1:39.0. That was sufficiently slower than enough people on my friends list, and by a big enough margin, that I just had to get my wheel setup up and running again to see what difference it made. It took a bit of adapting, but after 30-60 minutes I'd done 1:38.2, which got me gold rather than silver.

It's true that there are people who are very fast with a controller, but some people might be significantly quicker with a wheel. It's like in physical sports where there are choices of equipment, and top performers use a range of different equipments, but each person has their preference. Like the weight and shape of a dart, or the stiffness and weighting pattern of a golf club, or size and string tension of a tennis racquet etc.

 

[Peter.]

A wheel definitely has changed racing games for me for the better. A wheel made me faster, made me care more about the various methods of being faster, and naturally, dramatically improved immersion.

That said, I feel like I can't even drive without it anymore. Somewhere around GT5 Prologue I made the switch and any time since that I have had to use the controller I have struggled, even in other games.

 

[B80]

A wheel definitely has changed racing games for me for the better. A wheel made me faster, made me care more about the various methods of being faster, and naturally, dramatically improved immersion.

That said, I feel like I can't even drive without it anymore. Somewhere around GT5 Prologue I made the switch and any time since that I have had to use the controller I have struggled, even in other games.

Yes, tthats the good thing with this genre, you can get closer to the real thing due to the peripherals available. Whether ones seriously quicker isn't a massive factor, unless it turned out using a wheel was generally seconds per lap slower, or something crazy like that.

Part the reason I'm really looking forward to coming gen of vr on the console, and I'm hoping gt7 will take advantage of the new headset.

I guess sometimes you just want to sit on the couch and just use a controller for some games, but if vr and gaming could move towards accurately replicating your movement, that'd take it to whole new level. Graphical improvements are great, but now the gains seem marginal and vr seems like it could the gateway to a whole new level or immersion, enjoyment. I love the Resident Evil series, and keep hearing how scary/amazing re7 was in vr, wandering around a creepy house, genuinely scared/fearful etc... can be nervy playing normally in a dark room at night, can only imagine what its like using a decent vr setup.

 

[mattikake]

Don't pad users get haptic feedback on brake locking? This is an advantage most wheel users can never compete with because they simply don't have it. I imagine it's also probably quicker to put full/fast opposite lock on a stick with small movement than a wheel that rotates 360degrees.

Aren't some of the fastest players on pad?

 

[sixty4half]

Aren't some of the fastest players on pad?

Who?

 

[BigSarj]

Who?

I believe Daniel Solis is one. But he is winner on a wheel, too.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

How good you want to be? There’s tons, maybe most, A+ drivers using controllers

 

[hawkeyez]

All depends on the car. I was walking away from the two I race with when we ran a 911 Porsche. But the 69 Boss Mustang forget it, I couldn’t keep up at all. Finally got a wheel, I can still stay ahead in the Porsche but now it’s car lengths not half a tracks distance, however driving that mustang around with a wheel it’s a close match now. That was one the first race with the wheel too. Despite loosing such an advantage with the Porsche I’m glad I got a wheel because now all our races seems to be much closer.

 

[breeminator]

you can get closer to the real thing due to the peripherals available

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I actually find the controller more like driving a real car than a wheel and pedals, it's one reason I've been using a controller in recent years, as well as the convenience.

The reason is the force feedback with a wheel is, to me, really bad and nothing like the wheel of a real car. It applies forces in all sorts of ways that aren't there with a real car wheel. A controller stick, where you just push against a progressively increasing resistance, feels much more like a real car wheel to me.

But even so, a wheel is faster because you can turn a more accurate line, despite the force feedback doing its best to hinder you.

 

[B80]

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I actually find the controller more like driving a real car than a wheel and pedals, it's one reason I've been using a controller in recent years, as well as the convenience.

The reason is the force feedback with a wheel is, to me, really bad and nothing like the wheel of a real car. It applies forces in all sorts of ways that aren't there with a real car wheel. A controller stick, where you just push against a progressively increasing resistance, feels much more like a real car wheel to me.

But even so, a wheel is faster because you can turn a more accurate line, despite the force feedback doing its best to hinder you.

Fair play mate, I know where you're coming from tbh. Which wheels have you used?

I assume you mean FFB in general (not just gt7) is nothing like a real car, as in realistic would be getting some kind of motion seat, rather than relying on a gaming wheel?

I recall when I bought a logitech wheel about 10 years ago and being underwhelmed. It was decent and still kind of immersive, was nothing particularly special or like a real car imo. That may have been due to gt5 or 6, whatever it was rather than moaning at Logitech wheels.

I'm really pleased with Fanatec 8nm ddr pro so far, even with Gt7's dubious ffb. Using it with ACC is incredible though. Previously enjoyed racing/driving games, but got bored quickly. Since getting it in March, they're pretty much all I play and I'm excited at prospect of trying other games like F1, PC2 and possibly upgrading my pc too.... even more so when VR comes into the equation. Feels like i've only scratched the surface and opened a whole new world, whereas I'm not sure that would have been the case had I stuck with a controller... probably would have moved on from GT7 as I used to after a couple of months previously. Used to just complete offline races, licenses etc then call it day. Now I'm happy most days I play to do some offline or online races, or just hotlap a different car tune for ages... whereas before it was pretty much races or nothing.

 

[breeminator]

I assume you mean FFB in general (not just gt7) is nothing like a real car, as in realistic would be getting some kind of motion seat, rather than relying on a gaming wheel?

I have a belt drive Fanatec, but people who've compared it to DD have said there's little difference. The main problem I have with game FFB is they're using the FFB to try to convey things that aren't conveyed through the wheel in a real car. So yes, if you had a motion seat and conveyed those other things through that, and left the wheel to behave like a real wheel, that would be much better.

 

[Amotkram]

You forgot to demand separate single player leaderboards for wheel & pad users... 😈

Edit: For the cost of four replaced controllers you'd have been pretty close to getting a G29/G923...

Stick drift is easy to fix. You need small tools and a good set of eyes + 10 minutes. I never put the lube either, just clean and put back together. Videos all over YouTube.

I definitely agree with @HornetX1, this is just madness by PD to let wheel and pad users drive together. There's so much of a difference in skill between the two that it's not even a joke, no idea what Kaz was thinking.
Controller is just so much easier, all you have to do is move the stick a cm and the game plays itself. I mean, just look at the drift missions! It's so much easier to countersteer and catch spins on pad too! I can't afford any new controllers this month after my current one started stick drifitng, I want to race fairly against the drivers who use their whole body into driving a car, not just two thumbs. Petition for a Daily Race D where wheel and controller users are separated?

 

[TJC_69]

It's about time those of you that use wheels stop lying to yourselves & starting accepting that the racing wheels have an inherent advantage over the controllers. They always have & always will.

You can be low A/S driver skill/ability wise, & easily compete with higher A/S maybe even low A+/S drivers on pads.

Basically, once you get fully adjusted to the wheel (& This could take days, or weeks or months, it's varied & certainly not an easy transition)... You will always be able to lunch above your weight skill wise until you start coming across other wheel users.

I've said it for years, sport mode should split the playerbase further by hardware...or at the very least, give us the OPTION, of joining timeslots & selecting our hardware so that we get matched with others using the same equipment.

Or maybe not selecting because you'd 100% get wheel users looking for low skill easy wins. But seen as it's a first party game I'm almost certain they could detect the hardware you're on, & then do some kind of check again a few times mid race to make sure nobody switches over.

That's all semantics anyway.

It's time for wheel users to stop trying to lie to themselves & pretend that the wheel isn't "that much of an advantage" so that they can feel good about winning raced Vs controllers.

The wheel is a giant advantage, and that gap has clearly increased on GT7.
Here are some of the advantages to using a wheel:

• Wheels have way finer controls, allowing for more precise inputs on the throttle, brakes & steering...
• They have a much better ability to rotate the car & easily maintain control...it's no surprise that literally all the top lap times every week feature dumb powersliding into every corner & they're all wheel users (yes I've asked them).
• Much better tyre wear. Controllers still have issues with bad tyre wear
• Related to the finer controls, they're FAR less prone to making mistakes. Racing at the top end against wheel users on a controller is ridiculously difficult & feels like you're on a knife edge at all times. The margin for error on controller (all assists off apart from abs, & using manual) is TINY.
• No stick drift! Yet another issue with controllers, especially the Dualsense, is the horrendous stick drift after a few months (4 controllers replaced already)

The only advantage of using a controller is the lack of fatigue. Depending on how you're set up, I can imagine some longer races would fatigue some people on a wheel, whereas a controller is all in the fingers so there's zero fatigue even after a few hours.

Time to put an end to the defensive myth spread by wheel users. No it's not an even playing field, yes you do have a significant advantage, & yes you should be forced to play against others with the same equipment. I don't care if it cuts the playerbase down... There's definitely more than 16 people in each major region using wheels, so there's at least one full session.

Oh, I almost forgot... Tracks with camber

Yes wheek users, not only do you have an inherent hardware advantage, but it's even more pronounced on tracks with camber. Because even on max sensitivity controller users stueggle to rotate the car on cambered corners.

I'd love the top pros do a mixed championship where half of them have to use wheels, & the other half controllers , & then mix it up & just see how they all perform to finally spread the word to all the delusional wheel users out there.

I'm sure you'll all enjoy reading everything I left here for you, I look forward to reading all your lovely little replies.

Playing on controller is easy mode. The last few updates have buffed the pad many times over. Playing on a wheel is much more difficult as you're using your arms and legs to do all the work. It's way more demanding and physical. Not just sat on a sofa flicking a few buttons. Jeez.

If you feel it's that unfair, and believe me, it's not. Then buy a wheel?

Life is only as unfair as you perceive it 😜

 

[SnakeEyes427]

It's about time those of you that use wheels stop lying to yourselves & starting accepting that the racing wheels have an inherent advantage over the controllers. They always have & always will.

You can be low A/S driver skill/ability wise, & easily compete with higher A/S maybe even low A+/S drivers on pads.

Basically, once you get fully adjusted to the wheel (& This could take days, or weeks or months, it's varied & certainly not an easy transition)... You will always be able to lunch above your weight skill wise until you start coming across other wheel users.

I've said it for years, sport mode should split the playerbase further by hardware...or at the very least, give us the OPTION, of joining timeslots & selecting our hardware so that we get matched with others using the same equipment.

Or maybe not selecting because you'd 100% get wheel users looking for low skill easy wins. But seen as it's a first party game I'm almost certain they could detect the hardware you're on, & then do some kind of check again a few times mid race to make sure nobody switches over.

That's all semantics anyway.

It's time for wheel users to stop trying to lie to themselves & pretend that the wheel isn't "that much of an advantage" so that they can feel good about winning raced Vs controllers.

The wheel is a giant advantage, and that gap has clearly increased on GT7.
Here are some of the advantages to using a wheel:

• Wheels have way finer controls, allowing for more precise inputs on the throttle, brakes & steering...
• They have a much better ability to rotate the car & easily maintain control...it's no surprise that literally all the top lap times every week feature dumb powersliding into every corner & they're all wheel users (yes I've asked them).
• Much better tyre wear. Controllers still have issues with bad tyre wear
• Related to the finer controls, they're FAR less prone to making mistakes. Racing at the top end against wheel users on a controller is ridiculously difficult & feels like you're on a knife edge at all times. The margin for error on controller (all assists off apart from abs, & using manual) is TINY.
• No stick drift! Yet another issue with controllers, especially the Dualsense, is the horrendous stick drift after a few months (4 controllers replaced already)

The only advantage of using a controller is the lack of fatigue. Depending on how you're set up, I can imagine some longer races would fatigue some people on a wheel, whereas a controller is all in the fingers so there's zero fatigue even after a few hours.

Time to put an end to the defensive myth spread by wheel users. No it's not an even playing field, yes you do have a significant advantage, & yes you should be forced to play against others with the same equipment. I don't care if it cuts the playerbase down... There's definitely more than 16 people in each major region using wheels, so there's at least one full session.

Oh, I almost forgot... Tracks with camber

Yes wheek users, not only do you have an inherent hardware advantage, but it's even more pronounced on tracks with camber. Because even on max sensitivity controller users stueggle to rotate the car on cambered corners.

I'd love the top pros do a mixed championship where half of them have to use wheels, & the other half controllers , & then mix it up & just see how they all perform to finally spread the word to all the delusional wheel users out there.

I'm sure you'll all enjoy reading everything I left here for you, I look forward to reading all your lovely little replies.

As someone that used a controller most of her Gran Turismo "career" I would say yes, the wheel has an advantage over the controller. That advantage is feedback and the feeling of real driving seating. Something a controller will never be able to do.
Now it doesn't take a full on race setup to make the wheel work. I have mine hooked to a simple desk. Not even a back rest. That will make you take long hot baths for your back and shoulders aftera full day racing.
The best advice I have is to 1 get more practice with your controller or 2, get a second hand G29 and a strong wooden deck.
Posts like this will not improve your driving. PD has done all they can to make the controller as good as it could be. Don't believe me, go get a copy of GT5 and run it without updating it. But, I would spend the money on a simple setup if I was you. And I was at one point.

v See, simple! KISS v

 

[Boxster]

As someone that used a controller most of her Gran Turismo "career" I would say yes, the wheel has an advantage over the controller. That advantage is feedback and the feeling of real driving seating. Something a controller will never be able to do.
Now it doesn't take a full on race setup to make the wheel work. I have mine hooked to a simple desk. Not even a back rest. That will make you take long hot baths for your back and shoulders aftera full day racing.
The best advice I have is to 1 get more practice with your controller or 2, get a second hand G29 and a strong wooden deck.
Posts like this will not improve your driving. PD has done all they can to make the controller as good as it could be. Don't believe me, go get a copy of GT5 and run it without updating it. But, I would spend the money on a simple setup if I was you. And I was at one point.

v See, simple! KISS v
View attachment 1247422

As a controller player, I suspect two further advantages for a (good) wheel setup:

• on a controller you need to give all inputs with only your hands. That requires a lot of dexterity of your fingers, which I don't have sufficiently. With a wheel you control acceleration and braking with your feet.
• in addition, I find the level of control and sensitivity of the triggers and the stick limited. As a result precise control with a controller is hard.

 

[hawkeyez]

As a controller player, I suspect two further advantages for a (good) wheel setup:

• on a controller you need to give all inputs with only your hands. That requires a lot of dexterity of your fingers, which I don't have sufficiently. With a wheel you control acceleration and braking with your feet.
• in addition, I find the level of control and sensitivity of the triggers and the stick limited. As a result precise control with a controller is hard.

I think somehow using controller there’s like hidden assists going on. You can shut everything off but I think there’s still some behind the scenes assists happening.

 

[SnakeEyes427]

As a controller player, I suspect two further advantages for a (good) wheel setup:

• on a controller you need to give all inputs with only your hands. That requires a lot of dexterity of your fingers, which I don't have sufficiently. With a wheel you control acceleration and braking with your feet.
• in addition, I find the level of control and sensitivity of the triggers and the stick limited. As a result precise control with a controller is hard.

On your first point sure but try working with spread out buttons, both feet, 3 pedals, 1 Hand on the wheel and, the shifter. I don't have sufficiently of brain function for that myself. To many seizures. However, I keep that open to myself for when I want to start a brain fire.

Your second point. I had a PS4 controller that I had added extra springs to the triggers and clip on extensions. Then rubber bands on each side of the steering stick to give a additional variable resistance to the steering.

So again, I was there before too. The controller play is so much better now than it was. If PD plays with it to much I PROMISE you will not like the results!

Next, I will have to bore all of you with my stories of racing with members of the first Gran Turismo Academy with a controller and holding my own. I mean ones that actually got on TV, not the basic time trial jokers. There are members here that know me from then and know I am not just shoveling it out.

Only way I can remember what buttons do what and I still need the controller to change the view. 😆

 

[Meythia]

I think somehow using controller there’s like hidden assists going on. You can shut everything off but I think there’s still some behind the scenes assists happening.

Yes, the steering input has some kind of limitation that I cant put in words, somehow like a limiter depending on your speed or of this sort.

Run 1: maximum stick steering input, controller interprets as maximum of around 80% or so
Run 2: just the bare minimum I was able to steer through the same section

 

[KaYibE]

I know this is going to sound crazy, but I actually find the controller more like driving a real car than a wheel and pedals, it's one reason I've been using a controller in recent years, as well as the convenience.

The reason is the force feedback with a wheel is, to me, really bad and nothing like the wheel of a real car. It applies forces in all sorts of ways that aren't there with a real car wheel. A controller stick, where you just push against a progressively increasing resistance, feels much more like a real car wheel to me.

But even so, a wheel is faster because you can turn a more accurate line, despite the force feedback doing its best to hinder you.

I kinda understand these points of views, my best friend its a gamer but not a race enthusiast neither he plays racing games in a regular basis...

I invited him to try some laps using the wheel but was on ACC on PC cause GT7 wasnt realeased yet..., he totally hated the experience and told me its totally unrealistic...
I will invite him again this time to play GT7 on Psvr 2 cause i do find Gt7 FFB and overall feeling a lot more natural compared to ACC so i think he will enjoy GT7 on a wheel a little bit better, ACC sense of speed and lack of lateral grip feedback doesnt make the experience any good and for someone that its not used to using a wheel its a lot harder to judge speed and also visualy ACC its more messy and not so relaxing compared to GT7...

But the main thing it has to do with interpretation or lack of it..., my friend do not care about racing.., he doesnt care or even cross his mind that he have bad driving habits in RL so he doesnt know how to handle the wheel in a proper way he just mimic his drinving style like in RL.
Also he dont feel in his body the G forces and the lack of interest in learning and trying to understand what FFB is and what information its giving make him hate the experience.

To drive using a wheel on racing games people must invest time and pratice a lot to learn what information the wheel its giving, i can tell and told my friend that using a wheel in racing games its not like playing a normal game, it needs time and interest to learn, weeks if not months to get some muscle memory and also learning how to drive and race in a decent way...

If people dont give it time and dont have the capacity to use interpretation most of them dont even have the capacity to absorve small nuances and information they are receiving.., for them the wheel its just moving and doing weird stuff...
I know that cause remember i had the same feeling when i first used a wheel in a racing game but now after couple years i can feel a lot more and understand all the info the wheel its giving me to a point that i can stay 1 or 2 months without praticing but still retain all the experience just like riding a bicycle...

It needs time and a lot of pratice to really start to enjoy using a wheel.., its not a thing that people will love if they dont give it time to learn, its just that people must learn to use it if not they just give their opinion based on nothing cause of miss interpretation and lack of effort/dedication...

Not saying its your case just giving my input.

 

[mellofello9]

I think somehow using controller there’s like hidden assists going on. You can shut everything off but I think there’s still some behind the scenes assists happening.

There is a level of 'Counter Steer Assist' that is ALWAYS on for controllers. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot COMPLETELY disable this if on a DS.

This debate will charge forward unabated for, like, ever. There have been top drivers forced to use a wheel for competitions vs their (preferred) controller. To me that indicates you can be fast as hell on a controller, it's just a LOT harder to do. Improbable? Sure. Impossible? Nope.

 

[hawkeyez]

Yes, the steering input has some kind of limitation that I cant put in words, somehow like a limiter depending on your speed or of this sort.

Run 1: maximum stick steering input, controller interprets as maximum of around 80% or so
Run 2: just the bare minimum I was able to steer through the same section

For fun the other day I ran a race using the controller because I was sitting on the couch making a livery and didn’t feel like going to the wheel. There’s things you can get away with that you can’t get away with on a wheel. I much prefer the wheel and I’m not as good with the controller anymore. My dad and brother and I used to race when it first came out, I didn’t have a wheel and I noticed something. Things like the 911 Porsche, I was GONE! But take the Boss 429 mustang and I had a hell of a time keeping up.

I couldn’t put the power down with the controller driving the boss 429 but I could slide the 911 through every corner and they’d just spin out. Once I got a wheel, I was a bit slower at first but we were having closer races with any cars.

I think with the Porsche I had immediate countersteering. With the mustang, powering out of a corner, I had immediate countersteering and I’d just have a hard time straightening the car out.