TheVerge: Wait for GT7 'unacceptable'

[SimTourist]

It was like 150 full time workers. That is back in 2011 but as Wendl said that is tip of the ice berg. They must outsource a lot to hit the content targets (250 at time) and for a long time as they keep on making stuff for DLC and future games as it is relentless process given release schedules for Horizon and Motorsport series. As someone posted it is over 400 now for Forza 6. They have probably been the biggest Microsoft first party studio since the very first game and that shows real intent by Microsoft when they started the studio to outdo Sony's biggest first party franchise.

Like I said before I don't think PD will catch up anytime soon them levels and good to see that they are still expanding. They are probably similar size to Playground games. Given how small Evolution Studios are now, probably less than 60 people and Studio Liverpool got closed which had about 100 people working for them, it is tough times for a lot of Sony first party studios. Naughty Dog had to split their team in two to do Uncharted 3 and The Last of Us and they aren't that big in the first place. Cuts are being made at other first party studios too. I imagine studio size is one of the main reasons why it is taking a while for games like GT7 and Uncharted 4 to come out as they don't have the sheer manpower to release quicker.

I see no problem with MS giving T10/PG a lot of resources for development, if you look at it they're currently the only 1st party studio at MS that has excellent track record and always puts out a high quality product in a timely manner. To compare to other 1st parties - 343 has a lot to prove after the mess that were Halo 4 and MCC, Gears 4 is Coalition's first project and nobody knows if it's good or not, Lionhead is doing god knows what without Mulinex, so it's not hard to see that T10 deserves a good budget the most.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It was like 150 full time workers. That is back in 2011 but as Wendl said that is tip of the ice berg. They must outsource a lot to hit the content targets (250 at time) and for a long time as they keep on making stuff for DLC and future games as it is relentless process given release schedules for Horizon and Motorsport series. As someone posted it is over 400 now for Forza 6. They have probably been the biggest Microsoft first party studio since the very first game and that shows real intent by Microsoft when they started the studio to outdo Sony's biggest first party franchise.

It was 70 full time employees for T10 in 2011, unless you're referring to something else?

http://blogs.microsoft.com/next/2011/09/16/forza-motorsport-pt1-turn-10-studios/

 

[Imari]

I imagine studio size is one of the main reasons why it is taking a while for games like GT7 and Uncharted 4 to come out as they don't have the sheer manpower to release quicker.

They could choose to limit the scope of their games to something reasonable. That's how indies manage to make games, sometimes with only one person working in their free time. It's all about working with what you have available.

So far I wouldn't really call it taking a while for GT7 or Uncharted though. It's been nearly four years since Uncharted 3, but only a year and a half since TLoU, and it's only been a year and a half or zero days since GT6 depending on whether you count from when they released it or when they finished it (and presumably stopped working on it).

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I see no problem with MS giving T10/PG a lot of resources for development, if you look at it they're currently the only 1st party studio at MS that has excellent track record and always puts out a high quality product in a timely manner. To compare to other 1st parties - 343 has a lot to prove after the mess that were Halo 4 and MCC, Gears 4 is Coalition's first project and nobody knows if it's good or not, Lionhead is doing god knows what without Mulinex, so it's not hard to see that T10 deserves a good budget the most.

I don't see the problem, it is their money and they are free to do what they like with it. As a start up they probably were made the biggest Microsoft first party studio. As a franchise, it is probably one of their lower sellers though. Good for us consumers as we get much more value for our money. 👍

It was 70 full time employees for T10 in 2011, unless you're referring to something else?

http://blogs.microsoft.com/next/2011/09/16/forza-motorsport-pt1-turn-10-studios/

Did you not see video I linked to in this linked post? That was 2011, 2015 seems to be over 400.

They could choose to limit the scope of their games to something reasonable. That's how indies manage to make games, sometimes with only one person working in their free time. It's all about working with what you have available.

So far I wouldn't really call it taking a while for GT7 or Uncharted though. It's been nearly four years since Uncharted 3, but only a year and a half since TLoU, and it's only been a year and a half or zero days since GT6 depending on whether you count from when they released it or when they finished it (and presumably stopped working on it).

As first party studios though, they really do have to show off what the console is capable of doing to make them system sellers. Easier said than done.

It is probably longer than ideal for them, Uncharted 4 got delayed to 2016. PD are keeping quiet like they did for GT6. Hopefully we get a proper announcement this year for GT7.

 

[SimTourist]

I don't see the problem, it is their money and they are free to do what they like with it. As a start up they probably were made the biggest Microsoft first party studio. As a franchise, it is probably one of their lower sellers though. Good for us consumers as we get much more value for our money. 👍

They probably wouldn't keep the franchise up if it was made at a loss, they consistently sell in the 3-4 mil range with each title and make some extra money through DLC. It seems that Forza manages to sustain itself fine so far.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

They probably wouldn't keep the franchise up if it was made at a loss, they consistently sell in the 3-4 mil range with each title and make some extra money through DLC. It seems that Forza manages to sustain itself fine so far.

Always get the feeling it is heavily subsidised due to their games being bundled a lot and sold at a low price while still having a lot of development resources. Doubt Microsoft would get rid of something they invested a lot of money into that easily. Hasn't each Xbox so far lost money but Microsoft still yet to give up on consoles?

Sony are doing a lot of cost cutting as they need to. Seems PD aren't too affected by it which is a good thing for a better GT experience. 👍.

 

[SimTourist]

Always get the feeling it is heavily subsidised due to their games being bundled a lot and sold at a low price while still having a lot of development resources. Doubt Microsoft would get rid of something they invested a lot of money into that easily. Hasn't each Xbox so far lost money but Microsoft still yet to give up on consoles?

Sony are doing a lot of cost cutting as they need to. Seems PD aren't too affected by it which is a good thing for a better GT experience. 👍.

We'll never really know what's going on behind the scenes, so might as well enjoy the good thing while it lasts.

 

[Tenacious D]

Always get the feeling it is heavily subsidised due to their games being bundled a lot and sold at a low price while still having a lot of development resources. Doubt Microsoft would get rid of something they invested a lot of money into that easily. Hasn't each Xbox so far lost money but Microsoft still yet to give up on consoles?

Definitely. Forza 1 sold just over a cool million. I doubt MS made that investment back.

So far, MS isn't taking over the world in spite of the incredible amounts of money they're throwing into their studios, so it's a cool detente we have in the market. And if Forza 6 ends up being on par with P CARS with its physics, PD will be driven to keep pace. Heck, I would think Kaz would be anyhow, because it was clear how enthusiastic he was at the possibilities something as advanced as PS3 was back in its early days. Then the team had to work with it, and the headaches started. Now that SMS is discovering how far they can push P CARS on PS4, I suspect that PD is going to take that as a challenge to exceed.

I still think that Kaz never intended GT6 to be on PS3 at all, and like many here note, it seems that only token effort is being given to GT6. Which I'm all for. I'm with the portion of the fanbase who wants that next gen Gran Turismo sooner rather than later, so I'm content that GT6 gets some trickle down from the real Gran Turismo yet to come.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Definitely. Forza 1 sold just over a cool million. I doubt MS made that investment back.

And they sold 9 million of the next 2 so any loss in the first game, if there was any, was more than made up by the second and third.

 

[SimTourist]

MS is clearly not afraid to close projects/studios that don't make money, we've seen tons of this over the years, if T10 is able to keep afloat for 10+ years they must be doing something right.

 

[RACECAR]

Let's not forget how outdated the premium car list is as well. I mean, not one new car from 2015/16, just a bunch of 2010/12s here and there.

Yes its only 1 car but, I had to correct you on the game having none when this is sitting in the game right now. Besides, gives me good memories of that bet I won

 

[TokoTurismo]

Yes its only 1 car but, I had to correct you on the game having none when this is sitting in the game right now. Besides, gives me good memories of that bet I won

But but. It's a Nissan? lol

 

[Lord Protector]

But but. It's a Nissan? lol

Right there... that's why you're always so upset about GT

 

[MRTeam]

Is it possible PD is playing the 20th Anniversary media hype game?
Gran Turismo was first released in the 1996-1997 time frame.

We did have a 15th Anniversary Edition.

There's so much to do including this possible Porsche license I've been reading about.

2017 isn't that far off. Gran Turismo 7 in 2017. The 20th Anniversary Edition.

Sorry for the negativity.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Right there... that's why you're always so upset about GT

Oh it's more than that Lord-P. One of them is mostly PD's lack of communication with its fanbase.

 

[dr_slump]

Is it possible PD is playing the 20th Anniversary media hype game?
Gran Turismo was first released in the 1996-1997 time frame.

2017 isn't that far off. Gran Turismo 7 in 2017. The 20th Anniversary Edition.

The first GT was released in 1997/1998 (depending on region).

Anyway, it was just recently confirmed, last month to be precise, that the next GT game is going to be released before 2017.
Sure, by far not all announcements from Kaz regarding release dates have been reliable in the past, but it's highly unlikely for him to make this statement while secretly preparing for a 2017 launch. Doesn't really make any sense.

 

[GTPorsche]

They counted the 15th anniversary in 2013. There's no way they'd do a 20th anniversary in 2017...

 

[dr_slump]

@GTPorsche
As said before, it was released in 1997/1998.

2017 theoretically wouldn't be wrong for a 20th anniversary edition.
One could be picky and say that 2013 wasn't really the series' 15th anniversary though.

 

[GTPorsche]

You still can't do a 15th anniversary, and then turn around 4 years later and do a 20th...

The math doesn't work.

 

[niky]

Yes its only 1 car but, I had to correct you on the game having none when this is sitting in the game right now. Besides, gives me good memories of that bet I won

Doesn't count. It's a GT-R. GT6 has a bazillion GT-Rs.

[/trollmode]

 

[MRTeam]

I agree with everyone above.
Anything could happen. Luckily I can cure the wait with Project Cars.

Gran Turismo is so huge in size if PD commits to full filing all our wishes.
It will take more time.

 

[phonypoly]

April Fools Day 2016 - GT7 release
New Year's Day 2017 - GT7 Redux/ 20th Anniversary Edition (Apocalipse Now Redux - Livery added).

 

[Tornado]

I'd hope PD wouldn't be so presumptuous to make a big deal out of a 20th anniversary title when a grand total of zero games were released between it and the last time they made a big deal about an anniversary.

 

[gtracedriver1]

I see no problem with MS giving T10/PG a lot of resources for development, if you look at it they're currently the only 1st party studio at MS that has excellent track record and always puts out a high quality product in a timely manner. To compare to other 1st parties - 343 has a lot to prove after the mess that were Halo 4 and MCC, Gears 4 is Coalition's first project and nobody knows if it's good or not, Lionhead is doing god knows what without Mulinex, so it's not hard to see that T10 deserves a good budget the most.

Racing games are much easier to make. Moreover Forza5 had very less tracks and not even night racing included let alone day/night 24hrs race or dynamic weather. Other genre takes lots of time to make whether it FPS, action adventure game. PD are exceptional case. I do not think they are going to make games every 2years. GT7 I think will have lots of tracks, cars. Probably best photo mode and may be even support for project morpheus. Also the engine for PS4 and brand new sound, damage model etc. May be some more changes which we don't know.

 

[SimTourist]

Racing games are much easier to make. Moreover Forza5 had very less tracks and not even night racing included let alone day/night 24hrs race or dynamic weather. Other genre takes lots of time to make whether it FPS, action adventure game. PD are exceptional case. I do not think they are going to make games every 2years. GT7 I think will have lots of tracks, cars. Probably best photo mode and may be even support for project morpheus. Also the engine for PS4 and brand new sound, damage model etc. May be some more changes which we don't know.

I don't see how racing games are easier to make. Each car takes 6 months to make, an action game like CoD or Unchated can probably have the whole main and secondary cast modelled in that timeframe. For the entirety of last gen games like those took 2 years to make just like Forza. So the argument doesn't stand. T10 is only able to make their games fast because of high amount of employees (400+) and heavy use of outsourcing. If NaughtyDog had 400 people working on games they could probably release games every year. Same for PD.

 

[Tenacious D]

Actually according to LinkedIn, Naughty Dog is between 201 - 500 employees. They had two separate teams working on Uncharted 3 and The Last Of Us (yick). And I wouldn't doubt that the team size is more towards the 500 count, considering U4 is delayed.

And with Turn 10 hiring out to who knows how many contractors to assist in Forza 4, which improved on F3 with a few tracks and including DLC, perhaps 200 cars, I can't see any way you can justify a racing game on the scale of either Forza or Gran Turismo every year. The 400-plus count included contractors' employees working on F4. The references to total workforce on F6 is a little vague. It could be the same as F4's team, or T10 could have hired a few hundred temporary to permanent employees, and even more are contracted. And keep in mind that the Horizons are made by a different studio, which also take two years, possibly with their own contractors.

If GT7 is a solid racer with plenty to do, and if PD can whip up a decent Course Maker, Event Maker, Race Mod and Livery Editor, we'll never run out of things to do. So the wait for GT8 will be much more comfortable.

 

[Lain]

Racing games are much easier to make. Moreover Forza5 had very less tracks and not even night racing included let alone day/night 24hrs race or dynamic weather. Other genre takes lots of time to make whether it FPS, action adventure game. PD are exceptional case. I do not think they are going to make games every 2years. GT7 I think will have lots of tracks, cars. Probably best photo mode and may be even support for project morpheus. Also the engine for PS4 and brand new sound, damage model etc. May be some more changes which we don't know.

Out of all the genres mentioned in your post, FPSes are probably the easiest to develop. All the basic mechanics (movement, shooting, jumping, enemy AI, etc) are all pretty easy to implement. The only part of the process that might be harder is level design... but that definitely doesn't tip the scales to make FPSes overall more difficult to develop.

I'm not entirely sure why some people seem to get the idea that racing games are easier to develop. Maybe it has something to do with the same logic of why some people don't like racing... y'know, the whole "what's so amazing about cars going around in a circle?" thing. But just as racing is more difficult than that overly simple logic makes it sound, so too is developing racing games.

 

[Pseudopod]

Mechanical things are generally easier to make realistic-looking than organic things, especially when you have a limited polygon budget. The fact that so much time is spent on the cars usually just means that the cars in racing games are much closer to real cars than humans are in other games. However, all of the track environments are often made up of a lot of organic stuff like trees and spectators, and the total area of the levels across all tracks and variations probably rival the amount of terrain available in many shooters, and with the inclusion of photo modes, they all need to be in high detail.

 

[20832]

I think that, although I might be alone with this opinion, a decluttering/reduction of the overall car selection would be good and much appreciated. Mostly referring to the insane numbers of different versions of the JDM cars.

I rather have less cars and maybe a good chunk (possibly more than 50%) of the cars as premium versions and just have maybe one or two versions of a R34 or RX-7 for example. It just seems incredibly bloated and to be perfectly honest, unnecessary to have so many different versions of the R34 (or all of the Skyline's for that matter) when some of the difference are just a paint job, or a carbon hood.

It just artificially increases the number of cars in the game, but when you think about it 300 cars are just different versions of a standard car.

 

[gtracedriver1]

I don't see how racing games are easier to make. Each car takes 6 months to make, an action game like CoD or Unchated can probably have the whole main and secondary cast modelled in that timeframe. For the entirety of last gen games like those took 2 years to make just like Forza. So the argument doesn't stand. T10 is only able to make their games fast because of high amount of employees (400+) and heavy use of outsourcing. If NaughtyDog had 400 people working on games they could probably release games every year. Same for PD.

RPG, MMORPG and open world games are most difficult. Other genre too require a plot, writers, actors, mocap, level designing etc etc ... and lot of interaction with the world unlike racing games. Obviously COD has 2 big team and they can also recycle things from older games, same as racing games. COD case they sell more than 10million within a year. So that obviously helps. I do not agree with your logic. More people and artist mean they can create more assets, content but that does not mean they can make better games every year. It takes time to implement and bring decent changes unless it is a different team. Otherwise we are going to get more of the same and will make the series stale.