Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[Liquid]

It's a fair point, I understand what you mean not wanting to speak ill of the dead. Senna made mistakes, Hoy made mistakes, we can't deny these things.

Perhaps I overstated Leslie's prowess. I wasn't talking from a championship point of view. Leslie did fantastically in the non-works Cavalier; comprehensively outclassed Portman, Verdan-Roe and Nuttall, and was always there or there about compared to the works cars. Even got a pole (and possibly a win off the top of my head) in 1993.

Leslie wasn't a team leader sort of driver like Menu, Rydell or Aiello. He was in his 40s during the mid-late 90s when he had his most competative cars so a championship was less likely. He was known as being great at set ups and development, much like Tim Harvey, who was also a good development driver. Leslie helped with the ill-fated Xedos, the Accord, the Primera and the Imperian, very much like how Harvey helped development of the 318is (not forgetting Soper too), the 19, the Laguna, the 850, the 406 twice and the 147. Harvey of course did reach the top step thanks to that superb VLM 318is. And Steve Soper letting him through between Bridge and Priory.

For further reading, David Coulthard states in his book how good Leslie was as a development driver than a pure racer.

 

[homeforsummer]

That's probably fair, but it's hard to get that from his racing. Development is important but at the end of the day people are judged on their results. Or, in the case of wildcards like Mansell, on stand-out performances like Donington 98. A race, coincidentally, that Leslie did rather well in. As did Derek Warwick, someone else I never really rated as a BTCC driver.

 

[Liquid]

That was a complete fluke from Mansell. An excellent spectacle, but he was less than impressive in his other appearences.

Warwick wasn't much cop either I agree. He got a win, you guessed it, in the rain at Knockhill. Coincidentally Leslie had an absolute shocker that day. Craig Baird even led in his Floats On Race Day Mondeo.

Thank you Charlie Cox.

 

[homeforsummer]

Here's a bit of trivia for you actually, on why the Mondeos were always better in the wet and a bit off the pace in the dry, until Prodrive finally sorted them out in 99/00 - the position and weight of the engine.

Ford really struggled in 93/94 especially with understeer (leading to tyre wear), as the V6 was a big lump and couldn't be mounted as far back as the four-cylinder engines could in the engine bay. Whoever was running the team after Rouse in 95-98 improved it by canting it forward, so the rear cylinder bank could be more snug to the bulkhead, and they could move the engine itself back. Prodrive chucked a great deal more money at it in 99/00 and finally in 00 they dominated - just before the car was dropped for the new rules

However, what all that meant was that in wet races, the Mondeo actually had more weight over the nose, meaning more traction and more predictable handling. Hence people like Baird and Mansell suddenly being on the pace.

I expect Mazda had similar problems with the Xedos, but they had no money so never released the car's potential.

 

[Liquid]

Interesting to know, that.

Rouse Sport ran the team 1993-1995 and West Surrey Racing ran 1996-1998.

I'm a member of the Paul Radisich fan club on Facebook and there's a bloke on there who worked for WSR in 1997 and he said that Ford Motor Company spent more on sponsorship that year than they invested in their touring car efforts. Thus, teams like Rouse Sport and WSR didn't have enough money to deal with their tyre wear, understeer and suspension problems. On paper, Radisich and Hoy was a good combination but there wasn't enough investment until a more experianced team like Prodrive came in '99.

Same story with Peugeot. They had a plethora of success in France and Germany with the 406 but held back with their british campaign because they feared whatever team ran the team on their behalf would run off with their secrets. What Tim Harvey acheived in 1997 (two 2nd places and 9th in the standings) is incredible given the lack of development on the car. 1998 was diabolical despite a great team on paper; Harvey and Radisich (at an underfunded team again).

Shame. I loved the looks of the Mondeo and the 406.

Post script: The man from WSR also said that the V6s used by the Mondeos were taken from a poxy Mazda MX-3, so despite being heavy as you say hfs, they were pretty lethargic compared to the finely tuned engines of WTCE and TWR.

The 'good' engines were conserved for the rally team. Until Prodrive came along and were granted use of the much better ST220 engine as a base.

 

[Ardius]

prefer these ones of knockhill

Nah, thats not the best corner (Clarks or "Carlube"), the best corner is the one preceeding this, the "John R Weir Chicane". I love watching the cars disappear behind the hill and then appear flying over the kerbs. Watching the entire field follow through this one little chicane is something I look forward to every year.

 

[homeforsummer]

Shame. I loved the looks of the Mondeo and the 406.

Ditto.

Post script: The man from WSR also said that the V6s used by the Mondeos were taken from a poxy Mazda MX-3, so despite being heavy as you say hfs, they were pretty lethargic compared to the finely tuned engines of WTCE and TWR.

The 'good' engines were conserved for the rally team. Until Prodrive came along and were granted use of the much better ST220 engine as a base.

Hmm, that's a little off, on a few counts.

The Mondeo's engine was Mazda, correct, but was actually based on the 2.0-litre engine found in the Xedos 6, rather than the 1.8 from the MX-3. It's also a little off to suggest it was down on power - many of the 93-94 touring cars were making around 270-280bhp, but Rouse himself reckoned the Mondeos were closer to 300bhp, and Rouse also reckoned they were good for well over 10k rpm because they revved so smoothly - though all cars that year were limited to 8450rpm.

What they certainly were was peaky, compared to the 4-pots. I've a test of the 94 car in an old Autosport mag (including the Rouse quotes above -28th July 94, if you want to try your luck on ebay!), where the driver reckons it struggled to pull from below 6k rpm, where the BMW that he'd also tested would be happy to pull from less than 5k.

Incidentally, that could also be why the Mondeos were happier in the wet - in low grip, having more low-down torque can make quelling wheelspin a problem. With less low-down torque, the Mondeo drivers could probably get on the gas harder than other cars.

I wasn't aware they'd switched to Ford's own V6 later on, but I suppose it makes sense as the Mazda engine would have been out of production by then.

I seem to remember hearing at the time that the very last of the Supertouring cars were putting out around 320-odd bhp. Not sure where your rally comment comes in - Ford has always used its own four-cylinders in those cars, Cosworth YBs until the Focus came in, at which point they switched to Zetec/Duratec fours. That said, it was Cosworth who did the development work on both the early 90s touring cars and rally cars, so they knew what they were doing with the Mondeo's V6.

Another Mondeo factoid: The 1993 BTCC racer was based on the Mondeo Si, the 1994 car on the Ghia. The differences? They were allowed to use a boot spoiler in 93 as the Si was equipped with one. The Ghia lost the spoiler, but the team was allowed to use the fog light recesses for brake cooling, which they couldn't do on the fog light-less Si... [/geek]

 

[Liquid]

Hey, I'm only going on what the from WSR said on Facebook, I wouldn't treat it as gospel. He only worked there during the 1997 season so perhaps he just meant the engine was weak in that particular year, when the car wasn't competative. I concur it was a heck of a machine during the Rouse years; the sound of the 1994 engine is my second favourite touring car engine sound.#1? The 1996 BMW 318i. Amazing.

---

Trivium #1 - The first driver to drive a Mondeo hatchback? Not Robertson nor Radisich. Charlie Cox, when he returned in the back end of '95.

Trivium #2 - On TOCA 2, John Bintcliffe and teammate Yvan Muller have each other's numbers on their car. Bintcliffe was #7 and Muller was #12. This is reversed in the game. The same problem arises with the Vauxhalls of John Cleland and Derek Warwick.

Trivium #3 - John Cleland is the only driver who competed every season of the 1990s in full. Except the two rounds he missed in 1998 due to injury.

Trivia are too cool for school.

 

[jeffgoddin]

And people that use the singular of Trivia are too cool for everything!

But seriously, great discussion here recently on old BTCC! Thanks guys!

I noticed that the '98 Primera in GT2 has two race mods, the only difference being the color of the Primera badge that goes across the top of the windscreen, either blue or red. Until watching the '99 season of the BTCC I thought this was rather lame of PD to make two mods that are so similar, but now I know that it's just PD being amazingly historically accurate!

 

[homeforsummer]

I concur it was a heck of a machine during the Rouse years; the sound of the 1994 engine is my second favourite touring car engine sound.#1? The 1996 BMW 318i. Amazing.

Don't actually remember the 96 BMW sound, might have to Youtube it. All I remember about the BMW from that year is it being less than competitive, though the the Biela/Audi combination sort of made everyone look slow that year until they gave them heftier weight penalties.

Mondeo is my favourite touring car sound though, I concur. Closely followed by the current 5-cylinder Volvo C30s.

Trivium #1 - The first driver to drive a Mondeo hatchback? Not Robertson nor Radisich. Charlie Cox, when he returned in the back end of '95.

I'd forgotten they switched to the Mondeo hatch that early. I knew the Mk2 Mondeos were hatchbacks (off topic - always loved the roadgoing ST200 Mondeos... dirt cheap these days...), but forgot they used the Mk1 in hatch form too.

 

[Liquid]

And people that use the singular of Trivia are too cool for everything!

The ium/ia is a relatively easy rule to follow.

Stadium, stadia. Auditorium, auditoria. Medium, media. Trivium, trivia. And so on. I love grammar and spelling.

Maybe we need to set up our own "Class II/Supertouring" thread. Quizzes and so forth, perhaps. Links to articles. Most of the BTCC seasons are on YouTube and I've seen the ATCC Bathursts on there too.

 

[Ardius]

Not completely relevant to the Mondeo discussion but I found this old Top Gear clip with Tiff Needell a rare insight into the differences between the cars at the time:

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Nah, thats not the best corner (Clarks or "Carlube"), the best corner is the one preceeding this, the "John R Weir Chicane". I love watching the cars disappear behind the hill and then appear flying over the kerbs. Watching the entire field follow through this one little chicane is something I look forward to every year.

not if you race a gallardo


and only if you make the chicane

 

[homeforsummer]

Not completely relevant to the Mondeo discussion but I found this old Top Gear clip with Tiff Needell a rare insight into the differences between the cars at the time:

Thanks for that 👍 Only ever seen the first half of that clip for some reason.

Never knew that some of the 92 cars had ABS - I was aware there were ones without power steering (the Mondeo didn't have it right up until half way through 94) but I'd just assumed ABS had always been on the ban list. There were certainly a lot of lock-up incidents in 93/94 which presumably didn't happen often in 92!

Also, that vid has me wanting an old E36 318is coupe now...

Another good BTCC vid. Think this one is from the 97 or 98 season review video as I remember seeing it before:

​

 

[Liquid]

I maintain that the Vic Lee 318is is a superb looking touring car.

Right up there with the gold/green 406 and the later liveried Mondeos; the last blue one of 1998 and the funky yellow/blue one of 1999.

 

[homeforsummer]

Part of me has always preferred the saloon E36 touring cars to the coupe, though perhaps that's mainly down to the checkered BMW Motorsport/Warsteiner livery on the later cars.

Of that era, the Laguna is still a favourite, partly for its curves, and partly because the yellow/blue Renault livery stood out a mile. The Laguna only lost its looks for me in 98, when it got the dark green NESCAFE colour scheme and the red/orange rather than smoked rear lights, which I always thought looked a bit daft.

The gold/green 406 was definitely a cracker though. Incidentally, the 1990s was a time when you could be completely forgiven for buying a Peugeot or Renault over the equivalent Ford, as they were actually pretty good road cars too.

If we're look more recently, the 2001 X-Power MGs also looked good (neon green and dark grey on a proper saloon bodyshell? YES), as did the Astra Coupes around the time that Thompson won the title... 2004 I think. They changed the colour scheme on the Astra virtually every year but the coupe was always a decent looking car and the 04 colours suited it best:

And of course, the modern BMW 320i touring cars look brilliant too. BMW really can make a great looking tin-top. And we mustn't forget the Alfa 156 Supertouring and S2000-spec cars, which also looked amazing.

Start talking about all the above and you realise why touring cars are my favourite motorsport class...

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I maintain that the Vic Lee 318is is a superb looking touring car.

Right up there with the gold/green 406 and the later liveried Mondeos; the last blue one of 1998 and the funky yellow/blue one of 1999.

Vic lee did built some good cars, know someone that owns on of the teams old 306 and 307 touring cars although vic was successful in touring cars he wasn't as a pharmacist

In fact it was them buying Hollinger gearbox etc with no real big money sponsor that alerted customs.

 

[homeforsummer]

Watching the 2004 season at the moment.

Interesting observations a few rounds in:

- Plato and Neal actually driving relatively cleanly. Who'da thunk it?
- Dirtiest drivers, by far, are Anthony Reid in the MG and Tom Chilton in the Honda. They've barely gone a single race without each punting someone off to pass them. You can add Rob Huff to that list too, far worse than Plato based on the first four rounds or so that I've watched.
- When they weren't winning, Thompson and Muller seemed to spend most of their time getting punted off by Reid or Chilton
- Not sure whether it's a "strength in numbers" thing, but the solitary Alfa 156 and solitary BMW 320i also spent most of their time getting punted off, despite each of them actually being quite quick in some of the races. Just very unlucky.

All that said, it's certainly a better season than some of the ones previous - nice full-looking grids, which 2001-2003 seemed a bit light on.

Vic lee did built some good cars, know someone that owns on of the teams old 306 and 307 touring cars although vic was successful in touring cars he wasn't as a pharmacist

I'd forgotten that they'd run a 307 in the BTCC for a while. Neither memorable as a road or a race car, it seems. Did they also run those yellow Peugeot 406s in 2001 too?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Yeah they did the 406 coupes too just after he got out from the first time.

 

[Liquid]

They had that light lime scheme in 2001 and the Halfords scheme in 2002.

The red Total livery and green/gold Esso liveries were streets ahead. But they were MSD not VLM.

The saloon looked better than the coupè anyway in my opinion.

Addenum: It was only recently that I found out that Jerry Mahoney was part of the second Vic Lee squad that got sent down.

Addenum II: VLM were given the opportunity to run the factory Peugeots in 2001 after guiding Alan Morrison to the Class B title in 2000 in a similarly light lime Peugeot 306, for those who may have forgotten.

 

[jeffgoddin]

watch Thompson shove Plato off here, just after 3 minutes. So deliberate, this is the kind of Thompson move I'm talking about, though it's 5-6 years after his early stuff and he should be more mature by now.

 

[Ardius]

Bearing in mind this was after Plato had pulled so many dirty moves himself...note how Thompson manages to race pretty cleanly around Leslie for position. But then as soon as Plato appears and starts bumping and nudging them into the hairpin, the gloves come off.

 

[Liquid]

Plato v Leslie, Round 5 Donington Park, 1998.

One of the least subtle and needless manouvers in touring car history. I do like Plato despite his flaws, but that one was unbelievable.

As was Ravaglia v Radisich at Brands Hatch in 1996. Round 22 off the top of my head.

 

[homeforsummer]

Bearing in mind this was after Plato had pulled so many dirty moves himself...note how Thompson manages to race pretty cleanly around Leslie for position. But then as soon as Plato appears and starts bumping and nudging them into the hairpin, the gloves come off.

Not to mention that it's the exception that proves the rule. I've been watching BTCC for the best part of 15-odd years now and in the greater scheme of things, Thompson was far from being one of the dirtiest racers.

I actually feel a bit bad for calling out Muller earlier too. He did some dubious moves on occasion but watching this 04 review DVD he's racing pretty cleanly, as well as just being ridiculously fast as he always was.

Plato v Leslie, Round 5 Donington Park, 1998.

One of the least subtle and needless manouvers in touring car history. I do like Plato despite his flaws, but that one was unbelievable.

Heh, I'd forgotten about that one. Looks more conclusive from the in-car cam, where Plato actually turns into Leslie as he's on the outside of the corner.

But like you, I quite like Plato, and although him and Neal may be a bit dirty, it doesn't half make for some entertainment, certainly over the last few seasons.

 

[Liquid]

I have always been impressed with Muller's speed. Blisteringly quick. You knew he was a fast git when he put in some credible results in the '98 Audi. Sure Bintcliffe wasn't a top driver but he still picked up 2 wins and two 7th places in the championship with relatively little experiance. And Muller completely and totally thrashed him. Moved to Vauxhall and kept Plato on his toes and Plato is no slouch.

Does anyone have any reviews of supertouring from other countries except the UK? I've watched fragments but nothing substantial.

 

[homeforsummer]

Never searched for any vids or DVDs from any other series. Expect it might be possible to get French or German ones, as around the time Laurent Aiello was thrashing anyone and everyone in the Peugeot 406 the series was quite big. Now it seems to be more a northern European thing. Lots of Scandinavian series but not a lot in Spain/Italy/France, save for the token WTCC rounds.

 

[Liquid]

Never searched for any vids or DVDs from any other series. Expect it might be possible to get French or German ones, as around the time Laurent Aiello was thrashing anyone and everyone in the Peugeot 406 the series was quite big. Now it seems to be more a northern European thing. Lots of Scandinavian series but not a lot in Spain/Italy/France, save for the token WTCC rounds.

Drivers like Tarquini and Winkelhock didn't rate the supertouring series on the continent highly compared to the british series, but I like the Class II category as a whole and things like the World Cup got me interested in what the other series were like.

I'm just two VHSes short of a complete BTCC supertouring collection. I'm missing 1993 and 1994; annoyingly, I have owned them in the past.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The only video I've got of BTCC was 1988. Lost since the end of VHS for me.

This is the best race on it.



Proper cars on a proper track.

 

[homeforsummer]

The old Cosworths were certainly entertaining, but I just have no emotional connection to those seasons. I started watching BTCC in 93/94 so the Supertouring era is the pinnacle for me.

No real connection to the cars, either. I can understand why people like the Sierra RS 500 but again, when I got into cars/motorsport it was all Mondeos and Escort Cosworths by then, so those are the cars I remember more fondly.

That said, I do appreciate the more production-biased nature of the cars, something Supertouring got away from in the early to mid-nineties, and then went crazy with until 2000. I'd like to see the BTCC going more back to production-type cars again, even if the racing is great again these days.

I'm just two VHSes short of a complete BTCC supertouring collection. I'm missing 1993 and 1994; annoyingly, I have owned them in the past.

Duke Video offers most - if not all - of them on DVD now, recorded from the original master tapes. They're a bit expensive - £25 a pop, but probably worth it. That's how I got the 94 version recently. Never had it on VHS, and I remember emailing Duke about eight years ago asking when it was going on DVD. They finally granted my wish!

I've got the 97 and 98 seasons on VHS, and 2004 on DVD too. Eventually want everything from 1990-now.

 

[Liquid]

It's my BTCC vids that have made me keep my video player!

1994 onwards are available on DVD now. Anything between £15-£25 inclusive from the Duke website.

Edit: That's where I get them from hfs, but at the moment I'm based in Germany and my videos and player are in the attic back home in Wales so no purchases at the mo.