Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Yeah I caught that one. Impressive outing I have to say... The Volvo is going very strong here too, finishing second with just 1 tenths off Alain. Then there comes the long list of BMWs struggling to put a good lap time. Yeah I know it's just practice but seems like yet again they're struggling.

Arai said the S2000 Cruze and Group N scoobie would be similar but I didn't expect that! Volvo could be an interesting one next season, they have the 2nd best car now (imo) and could have Tarquini and Dahlgren next season driving for them, or they could quit altogether since they're running 4 cars in TTA next year. BMW's are passed it in WTCC now, their only upgrades recently have been to keep the cars legal, I doubt they'll be around much longer at this rate, same goes for Seat since Chevrolet are so dominant, hopefully Volvo stay around and Honda (Team Dynamics) and Ford (Arena) join next year.

 

[Prince.M5]

Honda (Team Dynamics) and Ford (Arena) join next year.

They would join only when the series itself is proving to be competitive... For what it is now, WTCC is going backwards. There's almost no competition to the higher budget factory Chevrolet. I'd say that they won the constructor and drivers championship easily this season than they were last year when the BMWs were still very strong...

I doubt that Team Dynamics and Arena would go to WTCC since they're doing well in the BTCC. There are not too many races in WTCC and it requires a lot of budget to run a team. Not exciting. Stick to BTCC.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

They would join only when the series itself is proving to be competitive... For what it is now, WTCC is going backwards. There's almost no competition to the higher budget factory Chevrolet. I'd say that they won the constructor and drivers championship easily this season than they were last year when the BMWs were still very strong...

I doubt that Team Dynamics and Arena would go to WTCC since they're doing well in the BTCC. There are not too many races in WTCC and it requires a lot of budget to run a team. Not exciting. Stick to BTCC.

Arena have already said they are joining wtcc next year.....

 

[Prince.M5]

Arena have already said they are joining wtcc next year.....

Aaah, I stand corrected then mate.

Anyways, the qualifying session looks pretty tight. Volvo is in the mix, BMW somehow is showing something and tomorrow is going to be a game of tyres. Whoever can last the tyres longer, will benefit the most. As it has always been this year, the Chevy isn't easy with its tyres while the BMW is set to show something as the FWD cars struggle.

So, Muller on pole, Yvan in 2nd place and Robert in 3rd. The championship is boiling because Rob is starting behind Robert but since it's a rolling start, don't think it could make any difference.

What I don't like to see tomorrow is Alain or the team asking Alain to give places away in favour of his team mates.

 

[Prince.M5]

Sorry for the double post. I don't know why but watching WTCC nowadays is such a heart ache...

Once again, the BMW of Tom Coronel who had a massive chance for a race victory got punted of by one of the ssssstupid Chevrolet. Enough said, this is just too frustrating.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Couldn't be nearly as frustrating as the V8 Supercars in Surfers' Paradise today; the officials trialled a new detection system on the kerbs of the temporary chicanes. Eventually, they made the decision to turn it off; as soon as they did, drivers started ignoring the corners.

 

[Prince.M5]

The pendulum swings... Tom Coronel with his BMW crosses the finish line in 1st place thus winning the Race 2 of WTCC in Japan! That was his 2nd ever win in WTCC and both of his race victories were from Japan. Interesting, well he is by far the only driver in WTCC that has a lot of knowledge in Suzuka. Got to give a lot of congratulation and thanks to BMW Motorsport and ROAL guys who worked really hard to get the car back out with his right front suspension completely destroyed.

Also if you watch the race today, Dahlgren in the Volvo did a fantastic job that I never expected the Volvo to be that fast around the circuit!

What a good end to a day, so the battle between Rob and Yvan will continue in China.

 

[Prince.M5]

Norbert Michelisz lost his ten place in the first race after the Stewards of the meeting imposed him a 30-second time penalty for overspeeding during the rolling start.
This cost the Hungarian youngster three precious points in the Yokohama Trophy in which he lies second, 11 points behind Kristian Poulsen and 4 ahead of Michel Nykjær.
The same penalty, for the same reason, was awarded to Aleksei Dudukalo, Fredy Barth, Javier Villa and Pepe Oriola, even if they finished out of the points or retired like it was the case for Barth.

How the hell can this happen? I mean, how can can he overspeed while on the rolling formation? This really bothers me a lot. I don't know whether this is the fault to the leaders, himself or the stewards but I think drivers nowadays doesn't seem to have a good discipline.

 

[spyrrari]

The pendulum swings... Tom Coronel with his BMW crosses the finish line in 1st place thus winning the Race 2 of WTCC in Japan! That was his 2nd ever win in WTCC and both of his race victories were from Japan. Interesting, well he is by far the only driver in WTCC that has a lot of knowledge in Suzuka. Got to give a lot of congratulation and thanks to BMW Motorsport and ROAL guys who worked really hard to get the car back out with his right front suspension completely destroyed.

Also if you watch the race today, Dahlgren in the Volvo did a fantastic job that I never expected the Volvo to be that fast around the circuit!

What a good end to a day, so the battle between Rob and Yvan will continue in China.

Very happy for "eat my dust" Tommy...great job!!




spy.

 

[Prince.M5]

This weekend is the penultimate weekend of the 2011 WTCC in Shanghai, China. Just like 2 weeks ago in Japan, it's all about Rob Huff and Yvan Muller to fight for the championship. With the Friday practise session done, it seems to look like the Chevy, BMW and Volvo to be really strong.

Top 3 in Friday Practise Session:

1- Alain Menu
2- Robert Dahlgren
3- Colin Turkington

 

[Prince.M5]

The 2nd race was completely ''spoiled to death'' by Rob Huff... He may have made such a good result but the way he recovered back on track and trying to get the car straight back is just extremely dangerous! He caused Turkington losing positions (even pushed him off the track!) and Coronel almost spinning his car when Rob tried to get his car straight. Such a dissapointing attitude for such a good touring car driver. 👎

Hopefully next year Rob will not be any stupider than today.

So, there you go - both are Chevy's victor.

 

[Snaeper]

Looks like Argentina's TC2000 will be moving to V8 power sourced from Radical. 11000RPM and 430hp sounds nice. Front wheel drive does not though.

I would love to see two or three of these cars as well as two or three Brazilian Stock Cars get modeled in GT as it would be a nice learning experience for those unfamiliar with these fantastic South American racing series.

 

[jeffgoddin]

Just discovered this touring car thread... don't see anything else around specific to BTCC discussion, and not sure I should start an entirely new thread for this, so...

Been marathon watching BTCC seasons in review, from 1989 up to and currently on 1999. Great stuff! Seems to have gotten tamer as time goes by, but it's up and down, like there's a constantly changing standard for how aggressive you can be without being out of line.

Just wanted to put it out there and wondered if anybody else had any opinions on this,

My least favorite BTCC drivers:
1) James Thompson - overrated, sometimes gets great results, but major asshole more often than that. I hate it when guys make it a habit to bully their way through traffic and can be depended on to punt at least two guys off per race.
2) Derek Warwick. Almost as bad as Thompson at being a rude driver. Almost every race in the late 1990's his bad driving put others out of commission
3) Steve Sopor, for one reason only. He was a great driver and I generally have to problem with him, but in the championship race in 1992 with the title on the line between Cleland and Hoy, Sopor re-entered the race a lap down in towards the end and then first attempted to block Cleland, and then when that didn't work deliberately crashed into him, retiring both from the race and giving the title to his teammate Hoy. Crappiest move I've yet seen in BTCC racing.

My favorite BTCC drivers:
1) Alain Menu - his early driving was great fun to watch, on two wheels more than anybody else. Yes, he was sometimes aggressive, but not really more than was acceptable at the time, good balance.
2) John Cleland - Very similar to Menu, appropriately aggressive and great skill, and oldest BTCC season champion ever!
3) Matt Neal - 1st Independent to win a race outright, and lots of great racing besides in previous years.

Feel most sorry for:
1) Paul Radisich - gawd, how many times did he get unfairly punted out of a race? Sometimes very fast, but maybe he was too nice and made a target of himself.
2) David Leslie (RIP) - also punted out of competition way more often than average, and also an excellent racer who could've gone for the championship if he hadn't been so abused.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

LADA will re-enter the WTCC in 2012 with the Granta Sport at two races (Budapest and Estoril).

Just discovered this touring car thread... don't see anything else around specific to BTCC discussion, and not sure I should start an entirely new thread for this, so...

How hard did you look?

 

[jeffgoddin]

I did a search in the Motorsport section for BTCC, and all that turned up were very old threads and things like the one you pointed to, which are modern season specific. So, maybe I should've started a "classic BTCC" thread...

So, you familiar with the old seasons? Any opinions on favorite and least favorite drivers?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Nope, not familiar with the BTCC. I'm Australian, so our touring car series - like our cricket team, weather, economy and so on - is naturally better than theirs. I know that sounds arrogant, but it's true: the BTCC is trundling around in Super 2000 cars. Australia has V8 Supercars, which do exactly what it says on the tin. They're V8s, and they're super cars.

 

[jeffgoddin]

Yeah, V8 Supercars is next on my list. More Power! May drop BTCC in the early 2000's since it looks like it gets less interesting.

But, and excuse my ignorance, isn't V8 limited to Ford/Holden? Two make kind of puts me off, I like to see 5-8 different manufacturers going for it.

If you have a spare couple hours, though, I'd say try and watch the 1992 BTCC season review on youtube or somewhere, not as boring as you might think!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

But, and excuse my ignorance, isn't V8 limited to Ford/Holden? Two make kind of puts me off, I like to see 5-8 different manufacturers going for it.

Two manufacturers might be a small number, but it's given rise to an intense rivalry between makes and fans that has very nearly resulted in civil war in the past. Unfortuantely, Holden control most of the grid these days, so it's not as competitive as it once was, but the regulations are being opened up a little for 2013, with the intention of luring new manufcturers in.

And the limited number of manufacturers hasn't affected the quality of the racing:











I see your location puts you in America. You'll be happy to know the V8s are going Stateside in 2013, with a race at the Circuit of the Americas in Texas.

 

[jeffgoddin]

I did watch last year's Bathurst 1000 live, great track. Just wish there could be, I don't know, a BMW Sedan M5 maybe, a Benz Sedan AMG E or C series, a Lexus whether Altezza/IS or GS/LS I don't care. But as an Australian event, I guess it would have to be all makes which are popular there.

At the same time, though, I have to admit that on occasion the BTCC has been spoiled by like, BMW FR's dominating one season, then Alfa's another. Then Audi 4WD. So in some ways having many makes with only a couple entries each can lead to rather boring racing, with only a couple people winning regularly. So, having just one or two makes brings it down more to the driver. Thus the existence of one-make events. Maybe just Ford-Holden isn't a bad thing.

That first video was pretty good, amazingly close after 1000km. I'll get to watching more V8 Supercars soon.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

3) Matt Neal - 1st Independent to win a race outright, and lots of great racing besides in previous years.

He is the dirtiest driver I've ever seen, I have never seen him pass anybody clean, he drives into the back of them and pushes them off line (at best, otherwise into a spin or off the track), all his 3 titles have been because his car has been so much better than anybody else's.

 

[jeffgoddin]

I'm guessing that's from when he was racing for works teams after 2000... Before that he was usually so far behind I didn't really notice many dirty tricks, though he did win the independent's title four times in the '90's, and there may have been some of that there that I didn't notice.

 

[Liquid]

He is the dirtiest driver I've ever seen, I have never seen him pass anybody clean, he drives into the back of them and pushes them off line (at best, otherwise into a spin or off the track), all his 3 titles have been because his car has been so much better than anybody else's.

Correct. Plato is just as bad as Thompson.

Menu was a great driver but his attitude was poor. Things were never his fault when things went wrong. Especially in 1998.

Leslie, Soper, Reid and Radisich deserved titles. And I'm mentioning the names of John Bintcliffe, Patrick Watts, Kelvin Burt, Tim Sugden, Kieth Odor and Laurence Bristow because I can.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Just wish there could be, I don't know, a BMW Sedan M5 maybe, a Benz Sedan AMG E or C series, a Lexus whether Altezza/IS or GS/LS I don't care.

None of those cars qualify under V8 Supercar regulations. The organisers want to encourage new manufacturers for 2013, so I'd say the most likely entries will be the Toyota Aurion, Lexus LS (rebadged as a Toyota), Hyundai Genesis or Kia Cadenza.

 

[Ardius]

I'm guessing that's from when he was racing for works teams after 2000... Before that he was usually so far behind I didn't really notice many dirty tricks, though he did win the independent's title four times in the '90's, and there may have been some of that there that I didn't notice.

Matt Neal has a terrible tendencey to simply throw his car up the inside line to overtake, regardless of whether there is space or not. Which naturally leads to him taking out a lot of people.
Neal and Plato are as bad as each other.

I disagree about James Thompson, I always felt he was the one getting bullied off track by people like Plato. When he did it back it only ever felt like vengeance. But I'm a fan of his so I'm willing to let it go, especially when he does it to people like Jason Plato.

To be honest, the "dirty tricks" have been part of the BTCC for so long now that I've long since given up caring about it. In some ways it makes you appreciate when a cleaner driver like Frank Wrathall comes along.

Nope, not familiar with the BTCC. I'm Australian, so our touring car series - like our cricket team, weather, economy and so on - is naturally better than theirs. I know that sounds arrogant, but it's true: the BTCC is trundling around in Super 2000 cars. Australia has V8 Supercars, which do exactly what it says on the tin. They're V8s, and they're super cars.

BTCC is no longer S2000 cars. I also think "trundling" is an interesting word to describe cars flying over the kerbs at Knockhill.

 

[homeforsummer]

1) James Thompson - overrated, sometimes gets great results, but major asshole more often than that. I hate it when guys make it a habit to bully their way through traffic and can be depended on to punt at least two guys off per race.

Completely disagree.

Not only has he won two titles in the BTCC, the toughest touring car championship in the world - against drivers like Plato, Neal and Muller, amongst others - but he also managed to extract wins and great results from the Alfa 156 in the WTCC long after that car had passed its sell-by date. And he managed a win in the Accord after that, and even two sixth-places in the Lada of all vehicles.

That's not to mention some of the fantastic results he got in years he didn't win the BTCC, plus the major talent he displayed as a privateer in the early 1990s.

I certainly wouldn't class him as a bullying driver either, nowhere near the level of Plato, Muller or Neal.

To top it all, he's a lovely chap. Met him in a bar in Spain, of all places, back in March. He was only too happy to chat for a while, and seemed happy to meet a fan. Not bad considering I stopped him on the way to the toilet And you know what it's like when you're on a night out and you need the bog...

Menu was a great driver but his attitude was poor. Things were never his fault when things went wrong. Especially in 1998.

Leslie, Soper, Reid and Radisich deserved titles. And I'm mentioning the names of John Bintcliffe, Patrick Watts, Kelvin Burt, Tim Sugden, Kieth Odor and Laurence Bristow because I can

Disagree with much of that too.

Thought Menu had a good attitude, and he was one of the cleaner drivers. He suffered a lot in 1998 when several drivers decided to play rough, and Menu got the brunt of that a lot of times in a slightly underperforming Laguna, so he had every right to have a bit of a moan.

Reid and Radisich deserved titles. Soper was unlucky. Leslie, rest his soul, I never really thought much of. He complained and moaned more than any other driver and unlike Reid never really had the speed to back it up.

Bintcliffe wasn't even slightly quick enough to get a mention, as he was never a patch on Biela. Watts deserved a better car and was entertaining to watch, but never really a championship contender. Burt was never that quick either, though he had a few big shunts which was a bit unlucky. Likewise the other three. Keith Odor was incredibly unlucky in 94 in particular. Just been re-watching the review of that season and he spent most of it being punted out the way by other drivers.

BTCC is no longer S2000 cars. I also think "trundling" is an interesting word to describe cars flying over the kerbs at Knockhill.

Quite.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I'm guessing that's from when he was racing for works teams after 2000... Before that he was usually so far behind I didn't really notice many dirty tricks, though he did win the independent's title four times in the '90's, and there may have been some of that there that I didn't notice.

He is one of the worst drivers ever to be given a race license he even took out both leading cars in the bathurst 1000 one year when he was 3 laps down then decided he would race them!

prefer these ones of knockhill

 

[Liquid]

Thought Menu had a good attitude, and he was one of the cleaner drivers. He suffered a lot in 1998 when several drivers decided to play rough, and Menu got the brunt of that a lot of times in a slightly underperforming Laguna, so he had every right to have a bit of a moan.

Reid and Radisich deserved titles. Soper was unlucky. Leslie, rest his soul, I never really thought much of. He complained and moaned more than any other driver and unlike Reid never really had the speed to back it up.

Bintcliffe wasn't even slightly quick enough to get a mention, as he was never a patch on Biela. Watts deserved a better car and was entertaining to watch, but never really a championship contender. Burt was never that quick either, though he had a few big shunts which was a bit unlucky. Likewise the other three. Keith Odor was incredibly unlucky in 94 in particular. Just been re-watching the review of that season and he spent most of it being punted out the way by other drivers.

Quite.

Menu was indeed a great driver, I like him, certainly one of the cleaner ones but 1998 showed a different side when the Laguna wasn't as dominant/the S40 and Primera caught up in performance. And the penultimate round in 1997 was unnecessary.

I mentioned Bintcliffe, Watts et al simply because they're the drivers I like who haven't won a title. Gotta love an underdog. The better drivers I like such as Andy Rouse, Win Percy, John Cleland, Will Hoy, Tim Harvey and Jo Winkelhock already have their names in the record books.

When driving for Ecurie Ecosse, David Leslie frequantly put John Cleland and Jeff Allam's works Vauxhall's to shame. Superb work in the Honda too.

Dirty? Step forward 1996 and take a bow Roberto Ravaglia.

 

[Furinkazen]

 

[Liquid]

Nice video.

Tarquini went better at Donington AND Knockhill. Although the latter courtesy of Tim Harvey forgetting what the middle pedal was for.

 

[homeforsummer]

When driving for Ecurie Ecosse, David Leslie frequantly put John Cleland and Jeff Allam's works Vauxhall's to shame. Superb work in the Honda too.

Not really. He finished ahead of Allam once, in 93, and never ahead of Cleland in the title (in the same car - when Vauxhall started using the Vectra and struggled to develop it, Leslie beat Cleland in the superior Honda and Nissan), who had wins each season. He had a few wins in 96 in the Accord, had two in 98 in the Nissan (to Reid's 7) and a handful in 99 when he got thrashed by Aiello in the same car (Nissan again).

Sorry, I just don't really rate him. I don't like to speak ill of the dead but I can't get reverential about someone if they didn't really have the results to show for it. And as before, he spent most of his time moaning about things.

I liked Leslie more as a WTCC commentator on Eurosport.