Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[homeforsummer]

Ah, gotcha. It's a shame they don't have a few of the pre-94 seasons on DVD. Reckon they'd sell nicely too.

 

[Liquid]

Don't actually remember the 96 BMW sound, might have to Youtube it.

A reasonable amount of BMW in car footage


Radisich vs. Ravaglia

 

[daan]

I've still got VHS tapes and DVDs of the season reviews from '87 through to the present (not every year though)

The race posted above of Soper vs Rouse from Brands is a classic. The Sierras going round the Birmingham Superprix track is excellent stuff too.

 

[Liquid]

Those Sierras were faster down the main straight than the main event F3000 cars.

Incredible. Group A did have some magic moments.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I miss real multi class BTTC racing like that. Without the enforced move over of F1 blue flags rule. It really added something to races.

 

[homeforsummer]

I miss real multi class BTTC racing like that. Without the enforced move over of F1 blue flags rule. It really added something to races.

Even better in the 1960s. Minis vs. Ford Galaxies. The Fords must have been twice the length and three times the weight of the Minis...

 

[jeffgoddin]

Don't remember all the ones that made me laugh, but there's one BTCC commentator who thinks it's his job to come up with odd one-liners. Just now "Jason [Plato]'s gone off worse that a bag of prawns in the sun!".

 

[Liquid]

Don't remember all the ones that made me laugh, but there's one BTCC commentator who thinks it's his job to come up with odd one-liners. Just now "Jason [Plato]'s gone off worse that a bag of prawns in the sun!".

Charlie Cox. He was ace, in his own way.


A promising BTCC career cut short


"Jason Plato's just told his pitcrew to tell JCB to hold off Yvan Muller. You're joking, mate! That's like trying to hold off the Terminator with a water pistol""

Can't think of any others on the spot, but that always cracked me up.

 

[Ardius]

Sometimes I like Charlie, sometimes I don't. Considering how few commentators are actually enjoyable and engaging to listen to, I have to say that Charlie is at least one of the best - as there are less than 10 people in the world I'd consider good commentators, seems a very difficult job to get right.

Really, the BTCC has had a good run of commentators. Even now with the support races with Simon Hill and Richard John-Neill (and even Lawrence Tomlinson) its pretty decent commentary.

I still miss Murray dearly though. If anything just for his lack of negative commentary as well as his amusing and smooth handling of the times when drivers get angry. Especially all those John Cleland moments!
It was great to have a commentator who simply told it how it was rather than tried to point the finger all the time. Every time I listen to Murray's commentary it feels like I'm sat next to the most rabid fan ever who can't wait to point out things to you. I can see why this isn't everyone's cup of tea but for me it made everything so much more exciting and interesting when you have Murray exclaiming "LOOK AT THAT!".

All other commentators simply describe what is happening but never really get the same kind of ethusiasm across. It never really feels like they are watching like Murray was, just reporting. Even guys like Ben Edwards and Charlie Cox, or even Martin Brundle - its just not the same. I guess it can be summed up by some of Murray's more emotional moments like Suzuka '96.

But anyway, yes, Cox can be bizarre most of the time. He still does it now with the MotoGP coverage.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Scottish mini coopers have been confirmed to support the btcc at both Knockhill and croft next year so car 25 is ready for this season

And car 6 very much a wip.

And 750bhp cars aren't allowed to come and play

 

[jeffgoddin]

up to 2001 BTCC season review. I think it was Murray who'd been making most of the funny comments, but here's one that is Aussie: "it's like watching butterflies mating!" re the front/rear bumper cams when a couple of guys were real close.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

A promising BTCC career cut short

You are aware that he was 35 when that happened? not really promising career cut short to be honest and he was never up the front.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

A lot of ruours flying around the BTCC forums atm saying Plato has signed for 888 to drive a NGTC MG next season in BTCC, if its true then it looks like RML are leaving the series.

 

[homeforsummer]

You are aware that he was 35 when that happened? not really promising career cut short to be honest and he was never up the front.

Age is pretty much irrelevant in touring car racing. Half the field competing in the early 90s was in their 40s and 50s and it's not like it slowed them down any. Cox could easily have gone on for much longer than he did.

I still miss Murray dearly though. If anything just for his lack of negative commentary as well as his amusing and smooth handling of the times when drivers get angry. Especially all those John Cleland moments!

Agreed! Watching some of the old races recently has reminded me of what he was like, there were definitely some funny comments when some of the drivers had a scuffle on or off the circuit...

The ones that pop to mind most are when one driver is clearly giving another the bird, or the V-sign, and Murray always described it as a "wave"

 

[TheCracker]

A lot of ruours flying around the BTCC forums atm saying Plato has signed for 888 to drive a NGTC MG next season in BTCC, if its true then it looks like RML are leaving the series.

With a divergence between WTCC and BTCC regs, it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped one for the other. Chevy obviously pay them to run in the WTCC, with a spin-off BTCC program relatively cheap to run off the back of it. Developing a new car to run to the newer BTCC regs won't be cost effective for them. Last year's near-WTCC spec car was obviously not quite on the pace. Next (this) seasons NGTC BTCC cars will be quicker still i'd imagine.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Age is pretty much irrelevant in touring car racing. Half the field competing in the early 90s was in their 40s and 50s and it's not like it slowed them down any. Cox could easily have gone on for much longer than he did.

But he did come back after that crash remember he always enter as an independent but wasn't all that good.

Don't see Plato going back to triple 8 though apparently he left on pretty bad terms although to be fair Ian Harrison no longer runs the team iirc.

 

[Liquid]

But he did come back after that crash remember he always enter as an independent but wasn't all that good.

He was surprisingly good up until the crash (Brand Hatch much?) but yeah, once he came back he wasn't as on the pace. Could have been a confidence thing. Then again, as me and hfs discussed a few pages back, the Mk I hatchback Mondeo was pretty rubbish anyway!

In the run up to the famous Soper/Cleland crash, Cleland's OBC shows him giving the finger to Soper and Murray says, ""I'm going for first", says John Cleland!". Another time he puts up two fingers after coming out of some smoke and Murray's going, "Yes John, you're still second!". And the time Kieth O'dor got a hip and shoulder from someone, puts the middle finger up and gesticulates in frustration; ""You're first and I'm not!", says Kieth O'dor!". Murray was brilliant at covering vulgarity.

 

[homeforsummer]

With a divergence between WTCC and BTCC regs, it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped one for the other. Chevy obviously pay them to run in the WTCC, with a spin-off BTCC program relatively cheap to run off the back of it. Developing a new car to run to the newer BTCC regs won't be cost effective for them. Last year's near-WTCC spec car was obviously not quite on the pace. Next (this) seasons NGTC BTCC cars will be quicker still i'd imagine.

I'm looking forward to see what Wrathall can do in the Toyota. Dark horse for the title?

Really, all the Chevy needed was a new engine in that chassis. Despite being 10mph down on top-end pace on occasion, the driver/car combo was clearly still quick otherwise he'd not have finished where he did. Same Chevy with a newer turbo'd engine would put them right back on the pace.

 

[Liquid]

Really, all the Chevy needed was a new engine in that chassis. Despite being 10mph down on top-end pace on occasion, the driver/car combo was clearly still quick otherwise he'd not have finished where he did. Same Chevy with a newer turbo'd engine would put them right back on the pace.

I agree. Just a little bit of development and the Chevy would be right back up there.

As much as I like him, Plato's moaning at Oulton after being gifted that win was a bit incredulous. Plato's old Seat used to be so much faster than other cars down the straight. Just some patience and development with the Chevy is all he/they need. But.. if they're planning on focusing purely on the WTCC, then that's a shame. I like the Chevys; Saloons are more enjoyable than compacts in my opinion.

 

[homeforsummer]

As much as I like him, Plato's moaning at Oulton after being gifted that win was a bit incredulous. Plato's old Seat used to be so much faster than other cars down the straight.

I was a bit shocked by the Oulton rant, but also couldn't help feeling he had a point. The difference between his Seat and the other cars was never as large as the difference between the turbo/non-turbo cars in 2011. People were just sailing past the Chevy and BMW at any speed, and without even bothering to slipstream.

Agree about saloons too. If it were up to me, we'd be heading back to early 90s rules, at least with regard to the body shells. I preferred the standard body/large wheels look, to the bodykitted body, smaller wheels approach. The whole attraction of touring cars has always been that they look like road cars, even if they don't perform like them.

 

[Liquid]

Agree about saloons too. If it were up to me, we'd be heading back to early 90s rules, at least with regard to the body shells. I preferred the standard body/large wheels look, to the bodykitted body, smaller wheels approach. The whole attraction of touring cars has always been that they look like road cars, even if they don't perform like them.

Yes! Someone else who agrees with me. Usually, people I talk to about touring cars just accept the status quo.

This is a touring car.

This is a touring car with an acceptable level of modifications

This is not a touring car, because it is a compact and has disgusting wheel arches and bodywork

This is a touring car with too many modifications

But everyone has different opinions...

 

[TheCracker]

Really, all the Chevy needed was a new engine in that chassis. Despite being 10mph down on top-end pace on occasion, the driver/car combo was clearly still quick otherwise he'd not have finished where he did. Same Chevy with a newer turbo'd engine would put them right back on the pace.

Maybe. But i have a feeling that the NGTC cars will have moved on considerably this next season. If what pretty much amounts to a privateer entry can run towards the front of the field, as the Avensis, Audi A4 and even Proton NGTC's were beginning to do towards the end of last season, just imagine what some of the bigger, better funded teams can come up with. Even a well executed S2000 car, with the newer turbo engine, would struggle IMO.

This is a touring car with too many modifications

I'd be hard pushed to class it as a Touring Car at all. It shares no common elements, other than it's upper body silhouette, with a Merc C-class.

 

[homeforsummer]

Maybe. But i have a feeling that the NGTC cars will have moved on considerably this next season. If what pretty much amounts to a privateer entry can run towards the front of the field, as the Avensis, Audi A4 and even Proton NGTC's were beginning to do towards the end of last season, just imagine what some of the bigger, better funded teams can come up with. Even a well executed S2000 car, with the newer turbo engine, would struggle IMO.

That's why I suspect Wrathall has a good chance this season. His team has got a jump on the works cars, so he could be one to watch.

 

[Liquid]

I'd be hard pushed to class it as a Touring Car at all. It shares no common elements, other than it's upper body silhouette, with a Merc C-class.

I concur. Things like DTM and V8s are borderline GT cars.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

He was surprisingly good up until the crash (Brand Hatch much?) but yeah, once he came back he wasn't as on the pace. Could have been a confidence thing. Then again, as me and hfs discussed a few pages back, the Mk I hatchback Mondeo was pretty rubbish anyway!

Erm that was one race? Look at the results

18,Dnf,5,15,13 then the crash he came back 21,15,dnf,16,Dnf,Dnf,Dnf,14


Looks about the same before and after

 

[homeforsummer]

Erm that was one race? Look at the results

18,Dnf,5,15,13 then the crash he came back 21,15,dnf,16,Dnf,Dnf,Dnf,14

Looks about the same before and after

Were any of the other independents significantly higher? And as has already been discussed: The 95-on Mondeo really wasn't a good car, even in works form.

 

[Liquid]

From the 4 races he competed in before the crash, he won one race, came second twice and finished in the points an additional time to be sitting 3rd in the independants championship. That's not too shabby.

After the crash, he changed to a much worse car and almost certainly wasn't as race confident. We can only speculate what might have been, had he not had the massive crash and not written off what was a competative car.

And finishing out of the top 10 was commonplace amongst privateers back then. Matt Neal crusied to the title that year and he only finished inside the top 10 twice. His average finishing position per race was 15th, and that's including a freak 4th place at Snetterton. With 18 works cars that year, finishing in the overall championship points positions was always difficult for the independants.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

You do notice that you said he entered in an uncompetive car yet posted a link that shows 3/5 of the field he was racing using the same car? Therefore that throws that idea of the car out of the window to a certain extent (although neals car would have had hundreds of thousands throwing at it) and the reason cox picked the mondeo anyway is because he owned and ran a ford garage. looking at the stats again youve posted it looked borderline average nothing more.

 

[Liquid]

You do notice that you said he entered in an uncompetive car yet posted a link that shows 3/5 of the field he was racing using the same car? Therefore that throws that idea of the car out of the window to a certain extent (although neals car would have had hundreds of thousands throwing at it) and the reason cox picked the mondeo anyway is because he owned and ran a ford garage. looking at the stats again youve posted it looked borderline average nothing more.

No, the car he had when he came back was uncompetative. As you can see, Kaye and Neal did well in the saloon Mondeo, as did Cox prior to the crash. But he changed to a hatchback when he returned and it was nowhere near as competative.

This is the saloon; the competative Mondeo as used by Kaye and Neal. Used by Cox prior to the crash.

This is the uncompetative Mondeo hatchback used upon his return. A horrid car that even in works trim in 1996 was woefully uncompetative.

I'm not saying that Cox was a sure fire hit for future success, but he did very well prior to his crash considering it was his first season in the BTCC and the other independents like Neal, Kaye, Smith, Irvine and especially Gravett all had previous experience in the series.

 

[homeforsummer]

Another reminder of how going back to more production-spec rules would be great for the series...

​

Entertaining racing, still plenty quick enough, and I can't believe cars of that spec are too expensive to run, even compared to the modern NGTCs.