Toyota to recall 3.8M vehicles over floor mats

[niky]

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Honda's had quite a few more quality issues over the past decade than those two" .... which two are you talking about and I doubt you have your facts straight. The only major recall Honda has had in the last decade involved the Odyssey transmissions.

Quality issues don't always equal recalls. There are various TSBs and recalls that were not issued for all Hondas and all regions... and quality issues that weren't TSBs but maybe should have been... off the top of my head... I can cite cam position sensor issues on the ES Civic (recall), gas tank strap issues (limited to my market only), rust issues (pretty much everything pre-2000... it's amusing to watch a line of dots grow on the roof of an EF-EK Civic as the welds start to rust from the inside...), that Odyssey transmission issue and/or the related Accord transmission issue, windshields exploding (early 90's Civics), CR-V fires... caused by improper technician training regarding oil filter installation... but partially because the filter used by Honda wasn't the proper spec, CVT durability issues and a local CVTF recall, when they didn't orient technicians on the fact that their CVTs required a different fluid from the regular ATF they supply...

I also remember an issue regarding exploding windshields from the early 90's, but don't recall what came of it.

Most of the issues, mind, are not caused by poor engineering, (like the airbag and window switch issue) but improper assembly and training, but they're there.

Still... I wholeheartedly recommend a secondhand Honda (except CVTs... caveat emptor...) to anyone who is looking... as long as it's not starting to rust. Great engines. Great cars.

 

[a6m5]

Yeah, it may not "equal", but probably decent indicator of quality.

 

[Joey D]

Alright, I'm having a huge problem with this gigantic load of BS that women driving the Lexus told to Congress.

Sevierville driver recalls 6 miles of 100 mph terror in Lexus

WASHINGTON - Rhonda Smith's story of six miles of interstate terror, as her Lexus suddenly zoomed to 100 mph, will set the mood today for the first congressional hearing on Toyota's acceleration problems.

The Sevierville, Tenn., woman shifted to neutral. She tried to throw the car into reverse. She hit the emergency brake. Nothing. Then, her Toyota-made car miraculously slowed down before she crashed.

Smith's description of her nightmare ride in October 2006 will precede testimony by safety experts, Toyota's U.S. president and the secretary of transportation Tuesday. Members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee's investigative panel will be armed with preliminary staff findings that Toyota and the government failed to protect the public.

Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., chairman of the subcommittee, wrote Toyota that the company misled the public by failing to reveal that misplaced floor mats and sticking gas pedals accounted for only some of the acceleration problems. He said the company resisted the possibility that electronics problems were the cause.

And he wrote the transportation secretary that his agency lacked the expertise and the will to conduct a thorough investigation of Toyota, which has recalled 8.5 million vehicles to fix acceleration problems in several models and braking issues in the 2010 hybrid Prius.

Tuesday's hearing, along with a second House hearing Wednesday, present a high bar in the company's attempts to convince the public it cares about safety.

James Lentz, president and chief operating officer of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc., won't have the benefit of speaking to consumers in company ads Tuesday.

Rather, he'll have to convince customers of company sincerity while facing expected hostile questioning from lawmakers venting their anger before television cameras.

The atmosphere outside the hearing won't be pleasant for the company either. Toyota revealed Monday that federal prosecutors and the Securities and Exchange Commission are now investigating the company's safety problems and what it told government investigators.

Lentz, in prepared, written testimony, apologized for the company's conduct.

"In recent months, we have not lived up to the high standards our customers and the public have come to expect from Toyota," Lentz said. "Put simply, it has taken us too long to come to grips with a rare but serious set of safety issues, despite all of our good faith efforts."

He cited poor communications "both within our company and with regulators and consumers."

But Lentz was defiant on one point, asserting that Toyota is confident "no problems exist with the electronic throttle control system in our vehicles. We have designed our electronic throttle control system with multiple fail-safe mechanisms to shut off or reduce engine power in the event of a system failure."

Stupak wrote Lentz on Monday that committee investigators believe he's relying on a flawed study to reach that conclusion.

Wednesday, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee will hear from company president Akio Toyoda, who is expected to speak to the committee and the American public through a translator.

In an opinion piece published by The Wall Street Journal, Toyoda acknowledged that the automaker had stumbled badly.

"It is clear to me that in recent years we didn't listen as carefully as we should - or respond as quickly as we must - to our customers' concerns," wrote Toyoda.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, in written, prepared testimony, assured Americans that his agency will ensure the safety of Toyota vehicles. He added the department's investigation includes the possibility that interference with electronics had a role in sudden acceleration.

"Although we are not aware of any incident proven to be caused by such interference, NHTSA (the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is doing a thorough review of that subject to ensure safety," the secretary said. "If NHTSA finds a problem, we will make sure it is resolved."

Committee investigators have made preliminary findings that the government was slow to respond to 2,600 complaints of sudden unintended acceleration from 2000 to 2010.

LaHood countered, "Every step of the way, NHTSA officials have pushed Toyota to take corrective action so that consumers would be safe."

This quote stood out:

The Sevierville, Tenn., woman shifted to neutral. She tried to throw the car into reverse. She hit the emergency brake. Nothing. Then, her Toyota-made car miraculously slowed down before she crashed.

I'm sorry but WTF? She was doing 100mph, on a highway with traffic, managed to shift the car into neutral and somehow into reverse, nothing happened so then she pulled up on her mechanical e-brake with no results either. Apparently she called her husband as well, and said a prayer.

I've been over 100mph in a car, it takes a lot of concentration to do it and you have to be focused or you run into something. I can't even imagine doing that while distracted, nor do I think it's possible, especially if she was in a high state of panic.

I'm not sure how shifting the car out of drive wouldn't at least start to slow the car down. If the accelerator is pinned kicking it out of gear would just let the engine rev and the car would just roll. I don't think it's even possible to shift a car into reverse while it's moving unless you broke the gear shift.

Plus since when does non-electronic devices act up with an electronic fault? I'm fairly certain e-brakes are mechanical and are there for if your brakes do fail.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not up on Toyota electronics but all this seems highly unlikely.

 

[niky]

And thus begins the circus...

Oooh... I was so scared when I started my Toyota and it drove through the plate glass window at the mall by itself, even before I put it in gear...

No... I wasn't drunk. Really.

No doubt some of these stories have an element of truth... and it's damn scary when a car starts behaving as if it has a mind of its own... but you shift it into neutral and it doesn't slow down? That's pretty hard to swallow.

 

[Joey D]

I have more of a problem with her yanking on the e-brake and nothing happening.

 

[Jondot]

I don't see why you'd lie for the sake of it though. My guess is that she was pulled over by a cop doing over a ton and this was her excuse. Or she was too embarrassed at having tried to do nothing to stop the car for 6 minutes that she made up some heroic garbage.

 

[a6m5]

My mom........ she's done both with a Mitsubishi Montero, many years ago. People have driven around with a e-brake on. But my mom, she's shifted the automatic gear in reverse, too. It didn't cause any immediate failure though. Like niky said though, I'd be shocked, if she actually did shift into neutral, and it didn't slow the car down.

 

[niky]

Shifting a Mitsubishi AT into reverse while running ain't good. I've seen someone blow up a Lancer/Mirage box doing just that...

Stopped the car, though.

 

[Keef]

Most automatic transmissions just go into neutral when you shift them into reverse while going forward. No harm done. It's a safety feature because they know some idiot is bound to try it. I say most because not all of them do it, especially old ones.

The lady's story doesn't make any sense. The story doesn't mention her ever attempting the service brake. The parking brake is the last thing I would consider at 100mph, holy crap. It's not an emergency brake. It's a parking brake, and it is not there in case the service brake fails. Also, some new cars do have electronically selected parking brakes, like BMWs. It can't even be turned on until the car is stopped and in park. As for that, I don't know whether or not Toyota uses the caliper or drums for a parking brake, but either way if the idiot drove around with it on the pads/shoes would be shot, and eventually the brake wouldn't work anymore. From the sounds of it she's the type of person who wouldn't even notice the awful grinding of brake wear indicators telling you it's time to change them.

I personally feel that all these fanciful and ridiculous stories people are coming up with is a glaring look at how very little people know about cars and how they work. In situations like this their lack of very basic knowledge turns dangerous.

 

[Omnis]

I don't think Reverse even engages until the car is at rest. You can shift into R or P and nothing will happen. Mythbusters did it.

 

[YSSMAN]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not up on Toyota electronics but all this seems highly unlikely.

I watched most of the first set of testimony this morning/afternoon, and one of the technician people who were there to speak with the panel over the Lexus Lady issue mentioned that he thinks the transmission override kept the car from being shifted from drive to reverse at that speed in order to save itself. It makes sense, as our cars generally seem to think that they're better than us. Why she didn't shift into neutral, I do not know. The technician guy was saying during the testimony that, somehow, shifting the car into neutral to load it onto the wrecker turned the engine on and revved it as well.


The good stuff came when they were grilling the two guys from the ABC thing that I posted a page or so back. The professor guy elaborated on his testing, and why he thinks stuff wen't wrong on the Toyota products. If I was understanding everything correctly, it comes down to the tolerances used by Toyota in their electronic throttles that can be easily confused even with small shorts to activate the throttle. Apparently those tolerances are significantly smaller than what is used by Ford and Honda.

I didn't get to see the Toyota North America guy testify, but I saw on the replay that he did admit to not having a fix for the cars yet. Apparently Toyota ran the same tests as the professor, had the same results, and they're working with him to fix it.

 

[Keef]

...transmission override kept the car from being shifted from drive to reverse at that speed in order to save itself. It makes sense, as our cars generally seem to think that they're better than us.

Have you ever jammed a manual into reverse at any reasonable forward speed? Talk about a catastrophic failure, you'd be lucky if gears didn't fly through the floorboard and hit you in the balls. It's hard to do in the first place, but you can do it. That's why automatics have that override, because reverse is only a button and a notch away.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, I generally try not to blow up my gearboxes, but I have been rolling forward slightly in the Celica, popped it into reverse, and had the poo scared out of me. However, I have never attempted this madness in a slushbox.

 

[a6m5]

February 23, 2010 | 4:34 PM ET
Sparks Fly at Toyota Accelerator Hearing

There was plenty of passionate testimony at Tuesday's hearing on the problems Toyota automobiles have had with sudden unintended accelerations. We heard Rhonda Smith recall how she was unable to stop her car, calling her husband so she could hear his voice one last time. Toyota Motors USA President and COO James Lentz issued mea culpas of varying length and passion. Experts on safety and autos testified on how the acceleration problems may have occurred.

One member took issue with the last set of witnesses.

Rep Steve Buyer ,R-Ind., alleged that those witnesses, Sean Kean from Safety Research & Strategies Inc. and Professor David Gilbert, an associate professor of Automotive Technology at Southern Illinois University, were biased in their research. As evidence, Buyer noted that a report submitted by Kean had been "sponsored" by five attorneys. Those five lawyers all represent people that have claims pending against Toyota. Mr Kean paid Prof Gilbert to do diagnostic tests on Toyota automobiles, thus undermining the neutrality of their testimony.

Buyer even raised the specter of a 1992 NBC News "Dateline" report that rigged gas tanks on certain GMC trucks to explode in a low speed crash to highlight the dangers of "staging" studies.

Kean and Gilbert reaffirmed under oath that their testimony was true. Professor Gilbert said that his report did not require him to file his findings with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, but said "the moment I discovered this (malfunction) I was sick to my stomach." He maintained that the payments he received from Kean to do research did not influence him in any way.

Additionally, Rep Buyer has his own conflicts of interest as well. A plant in his district helps to manufacture the Toyota Camry. He is also set to resign at the end of this term amid an ethics scandal.

This is a circus. That's what this is.

And am I correct in assuming this lady is an idiot? The car wouldn't stop, and she actually called her husband to hear his voice for the last time? Call me crazy & out of my mind, but if my car got out of control, one of the last things I would be doing would be calling somebody on my cell. She actually called someone while in the driver seat of an out of control car? Seriously?

P.S. I love my stick shift.

 

[Jim Prower]

Well, I figured it'd be a circus. It's just that way with these people anymore. when there's lawsuit money to be found, and fame, and possibly a political job (see, Ralph Nader,) these people come running. This fellow producing the experiment with ABC in particular seems a Nader type.

 

[ANFD]

If one tries to remove their shoes and socks while driving 65mph on a hot day, and accidentally kicks the shifter on a 1981 Prelude to the top of the selector slot (reverse), the car will not go into reverse, but it will destroy the gearbox

 

[Jondot]

Wahey, here's a new one.

Wow, so he successfully proved that the throttle in an Avalon can be jammed right open without the computer knowing. Provided a man from Illinois has spent a few weeks messing around with the electronics. And is in the car with you at the time.

Good lord, I do hope they're aware of this potentially hazardous issue. While we're at it, has GM got around to recalling its 1966 bus line due to the likelihood of explosion when Sandra Bullock is placed on board? It could happen again, guys.

 

[Philly]

And am I correct in assuming this lady is an idiot? The car wouldn't stop, and she actually called her husband to hear his voice for the last time? Call me crazy & out of my mind, but if my car got out of control, one of the last things I would be doing would be calling somebody on my cell. She actually called someone while in the driver seat of an out of control car? Seriously?

Having ridden with both my mom and some of my friends, I think this may be semi-normal. My guess is that in her hysteria, she probably had trouble finding neutral or reverse. I honestly wouldn't hold it against some of these people to not know what to do in that situation.

Also, maybe her parking brake was electric? Maybe a push button emergency brake would have an override so you can't set it at 100 mph. Because no matter how out of control you are, that would just make it worse. As soon as I found out that they were putting those in cars, I was pretty dumbfounded. Stupidest. Idea. Ever.

 

[FoolKiller]

I honestly wouldn't hold it against some of these people to not know what to do in that situation.

I do, well I hold it against a larger mentality that these people have adopted. I think it is a sign of where the mentality of drivers in the US is these days. They know more about how to make the thing interact with their cell phone, iPod, GPS, and DVD player for the kids in the back all with voice control than they do about how to stop the car if the accelerator gets stuck. When this stuff first started coming out my wife told me the story of the woman that had time to call 911 about it and the first words out of my mouth were, "Why didn't she put it in neutral or turn off the ignition?" And my wife's response: "What would that do?" I am not pointing at the tragic deaths that occurred here and saying the drivers are to blame, but I am saying that this situation points out a much larger problem in a society with over 100 million vehicles on the road; many of us don't know how to drive our cars any more.

At work some people with Toyota's were saying how scared it made them and I told them to just turn it off if it started accelerating and I was met with dumb expressions and, "But I'll lose my power steering." I just told them to ask their parents how to drive in that situation.

It is a situation I saw when I was testing cars and any time I drive my wife's Yaris. To pick on Toyota: I tested a Yaris myself. A tachometer was only an option in the S-sedan, despite that a 5-speed was available on all models. My wife has the S-sedan and the only gauges she has are speedometer, tachometer, and a digital fuel gauge. Everything else relies on dummy lights. We have taken the driver out of the car nearly as much as we can without getting self-piloted systems. Hell, they park themselves now...supposedly.

I think this situation points out a need for our society to ask ourselves if we have become too reliant on our cars to do everything for us and now don't know how to take control when that helpful technology breaks. I don't think we should do away with things like traction control and stability systems, because they do save lives, but I think that anyone who cares about their safety, or that of those in the car with them, should take a few driving lessons on how to handle a car without them. At a minimum, do something to learn that a car can still be turned without power steering. Maybe then I won't ever have to hear the question: "Why would you want to turn off traction control?"

 

[Joey D]

Huge +Invisi-Rep Steve 👍.

You are so right. I was surprised when I took driver's education how little I was actually taught. If something would have gone wrong in my first couple years of driving I probably would have had a hideous accident because of my lack of knowledge and lack of experience. If it happened today though I would like to think I would know what to do because I've had to teach myself most of this stuff.

And I think cars have become way to advanced too. Traction control, stability control, ABS and safety systems like airbags are all excellent. However a lot of technology in cars isn't needed, active cruise control? Park-itself? Blind spot sensors? Seriously??? We've taken thought out of driving.

 

[a6m5]

I've been thinking the same thing. Driving can be a very dangerous thing, yet, so many drivers lack common sense & knowledge on driving their car. I was also thinking about the ignition. You could turn the engine off, then click it back in the standby, so your steering won't lock.

I don't know if this is true, but that woman with the Lexus, supposedly her husband later tested the shifter after the key was taken out of ignition. The claim is the engine re-started. That is a ridiculous claim. I'm not an engineer, but that does not sound like a design flaw, or mechanical failure on Toyota's part. My guesses would be that either it's a horrible story, or someone/something messed up her vehicle, prior to her husband testing the shifter.

Somebody just posted this part of the story on a blog, so I haven't been able to confirm it with a reliable source.

 

[niky]

Also, maybe her parking brake was electric? Maybe a push button emergency brake would have an override so you can't set it at 100 mph. Because no matter how out of control you are, that would just make it worse. As soon as I found out that they were putting those in cars, I was pretty dumbfounded. Stupidest. Idea. Ever.

Actually, BMW has a very clever interpretation of the electric parking brake. Pull on their e-brake switch at highway speeds and the engine cuts out to idle, the automatic transmission shifts to neutral, and the car comes to a complete stop, braking slowly and safely the whole way.

I call it the "Wifey Switch".

 

[Eric.]

Does it return to the correct gear if you were to release the parking brake?

 

[Philly]

I am not pointing at the tragic deaths that occurred here and saying the drivers are to blame, but I am saying that this situation points out a much larger problem in a society with over 100 million vehicles on the road; many of us don't know how to drive our cars any more.

At work some people with Toyota's were saying how scared it made them and I told them to just turn it off if it started accelerating and I was met with dumb expressions and, "But I'll lose my power steering." I just told them to ask their parents how to drive in that situation.

I'm sure that removing drivers from the driving experience (like in Toyotas and such) also has an effect on people's abilities to handle the car. If you cut out a lot of the feel and sound of driving like a lot of new cars do, well, that's two less senses that are reminding you of the task at hand so there's no way you'll be paying as much attention. And it's actually frightening riding with these people. You really wonder how they never get into accidents. Especially knowing what it's like to drive when my attention span is gone and I have to try as hard as I can to focus.

I've never driven a car without power steering, but does a power steering system make the car harder to steer without the assistance? Some of today's cars have pretty heavy steering with the engine off, and it seems like that would be hard to put up with without assistance.

And I think cars have become way to advanced too. Traction control, stability control, ABS and safety systems like airbags are all excellent. However a lot of technology in cars isn't needed, active cruise control? Park-itself? Blind spot sensors? Seriously??? We've taken thought out of driving.

These things are all like the skymall magazine. If I can't think of what was wrong with the old way (like checking your blind spot) then something is wrong with the system. I'm even skeptical of navigation systems. What's wrong with a map and knowing how to navigate?

Actually, BMW has a very clever interpretation of the electric parking brake. Pull on their e-brake switch at highway speeds and the engine cuts out to idle, the automatic transmission shifts to neutral, and the car comes to a complete stop, braking slowly and safely the whole way.

I call it the "Wifey Switch".

That's actually a good idea though. Maybe more cars have that? It makes sense because trying to brake with a hand lever that only acts on the rear wheels could get a little hairy.

 

[a6m5]

I've never driven a car without power steering, but does a power steering system make the car harder to steer without the assistance?

I guess you can say "harder", but no, it doesn't make it at all hard. Only when you are in a tight maneuver at really low speed, like parking in a tight spot, etc.

 

[niky]

Does it return to the correct gear if you were to release the parking brake?

You can't deactivate it unless the car has finally come to a complete stop. It's specifically programmed to bring you to a completely safe stop if something goes wrong or the driver gets knocked unconscious. Actually a bloody good idea.

Kind of makes the term "emergency brake" actually mean something once again...

Getting mixed messages from this hearing. But the over-riding message seems to be that almost nobody knows what they're talking about... love the part where LaHood stated they have no electrical engineers... then finally admitted that they had "two".

Let's see... almost every brand new car in the past two or three years has an electronic throttle and electric steering assist... electronically activated airbags, ABS, EBD, ESC/DSC/ESP/whatever, electronic injection, electronic ignition... and the guys in charge of highway safety have... two?... electrical engineers on the staff. Wow. That's really confidence inspiring.

 

[FoolKiller]

I've never driven a car without power steering, but does a power steering system make the car harder to steer without the assistance? Some of today's cars have pretty heavy steering with the engine off, and it seems like that would be hard to put up with without assistance.

To give you an example you can associate with: My Rabbit had a sensor in the power steering system go out. As a safety precaution the car turns it off and gives me a yellow warning light (yellow meaning there is a problem, but it is functional). It felt like some resting their hand on the wheel, causing enough friction that I had to actually concentrate on where and how I was turning, and it did not return to center immediately.

On old 1980's systems (I've had an 85 Chrysler and 88 Buick without it) it was not a hassle if you were moving at speed, but at low speed or sitting you could tell you were having to out-power the friction between tire and road.

What's wrong with a map and knowing how to navigate?

I have found quicker routes with Google Maps on my phone than a GPS gave me on multiple occasions.

 

[Jim Prower]

I have driven cars without power steering. And with huge, 16-20 inch steering wheels. AND squirmy bias ply (sometimes bicycle-style!) tires. It's really not too bad...like everyone says, it's not even really necessary to have power assist once you get moving.

However, if your power steering belt breaks, and you have a hydraulic system, it gets much, much heavier. On some cold mornings, the belt slips on my Nova (Impossible to adjust, it's way behind the engine and you can't get at the nut without a special tool) and I can feel myself actually moving the fluid around.

 

[Keef]

My mom's Corolla has a flat tire. The **** has officially hit the fan. Where do I sign up for this class action lawsuit?

 

[Philly]

I have found quicker routes with Google Maps on my phone than a GPS gave me on multiple occasions.

And then there are the people who use a GPS from their house and then wonder why it's taking them whatever way it goes through their own town. It drives me crazy when people blindingly let the GPS replace their judgement. It also doesn't really inspire confidence in their ability to drive...

I have driven cars without power steering. And with huge, 16-20 inch steering wheels. AND squirmy bias ply (sometimes bicycle-style!) tires. It's really not too bad...like everyone says, it's not even really necessary to have power assist once you get moving.

However, if your power steering belt breaks, and you have a hydraulic system, it gets much, much heavier. On some cold mornings, the belt slips on my Nova (Impossible to adjust, it's way behind the engine and you can't get at the nut without a special tool) and I can feel myself actually moving the fluid around.

Yeah that's what I thought. But some of the newer systems are a little better when they fail, like what FK said.