Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[JacksHerer]

@Spurgy 777 hmm yeh you might have a point, I'm guessing where my wheels are even when I'm in control.

 

[coltsjugg]

"Completely different approach to T4" Okay.

 

[zzz_pt]

"Completely different approach to T4" Okay.

If you can't see a difference you clearly don't know how to drive either of those lines.

 

[baldgye]

I think it’s fair to conclude that @zzz_pt is an elite super hacker without morals or ethics.

And that no one was ever successful in racing (real of cyber) by hacking their way through races, following the rules and not being punished.

PD have a problem though, because the fake tracks they invented have really difficult to enforce track-limits because they put white lines and white patches all over the place.
I don’t know how the combat this problem, because real world tracks have white and red stripped kerbs too... maybe they need to have the AI run these tracks for a few more months so they can simulate the lines they want people to take...

Edit: I guess I need to tag this as sarcasm, given some of the serious posts in this thread

 

[Odyseus8]

I think that is an extremely unfair conclusion.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Demo-runs are often just clean, tidy laps. but not one of the fastest...they are just there to show the majority of people a decent lap. So you can't take that as an example for setting track limits.

So why not show a clean tidy lap using the games track limits if those limits are actually where PD intended for the players of the game to use as the actual surface to race on rather than the actual track as the video shows?

Again you somehow know more about what the intentions of PD may be than what they are apparently showing their intention to be with their own in game videos?

Please reveal your inside of PD source that can confirm their intentions are entirely different from the only information they have publicly shown that actually gives any sort of insight into their intentions other than pure speculation by people that play the game and have nothing to do with what goes on within the company.

Granted the lap times using the videos limits can well be improved upon with later braking, faster mid corner and corner exit speeds but to run a faster lap does not necessarily mean that not using the designated Tarmac surface is what is intended by the game to do.

But it's far worse than that as you are both claiming that the track limits PD actually meant to implement are the white lines, and as has already been pointed out that would mean they got it wrong on practically 100% of corners. So not only are you saying that the penalty system between track limits, wall riding and collisions should all be equally broken, you're saying that the track limits are far far more broken than both of the other two

My argument is that the position of so many is this is what is allowed as PD intended or there would be a penalty.

The only proof of any kind that perhaps shows PD'S intentions is the only indicators of such as released by PD and that would be the narrated videos in the circuit experience that from PD is apparently to show the proper way to run a circuit.

Within those videos it is apparent the laps are being run with 2 tires remaining on the Tarmac in all cases so your argument that allowing off tarmac racing is the intention of PD rather than a proven time and time again broken penalty system within the game is what makes zero sense as compared to the actual facts and not purely speculation of a games users.

Show me any official from PD produced game related content that supports completely leaving the designated racing tarmac is a proper intended way of racing as defined or supported by PD.

I can show you videos from PD that support my position as being more than personal opinion or speculation can you do the same?

Until you can do so perhaps you should accept your position is based off of opinion only and everyone has one of those as well as other things while the presented facts from the game company that are to my knowledge the only official facts available on this matter show a different position.

I am waiting for you to show me your official proof from PD.

 

[Tornado]

If you feel the abuse of track limits on sector 1 Nurb GP, (turns 2, 3, and 4) is fine, then that's your perogative.
I disagree.

That's it.
That's all I've said.

Happy to hold a little integrity, than go balls out.

It certainly takes more integrity/pride to be slower,

Whatever helps you sleep, I suppose.

Please reveal your inside of PD source that can confirm their intentions are entirely different from the only information they have publicly shown that actually gives any sort of insight into their intentions other than pure speculation by people that play the game and have nothing to do with what goes on within the company.

I like how your analysis of a hidden meaning of narrated track runthroughs are "official facts" of PD's intentions; but analyzing PD's actual consistent actions regarding track boundary placement and the enforcement therein since the beginning of GT Academy (meaning since before GT5 even came out) is "pure speculation".

 

[zzz_pt]

So why not show a clean tidy lap using the games track limits if those limits are actually where PD intended for the players of the game to use as the actual surface to race on rather than the actual track as the video shows?

Again you somehow know more about what the intentions of PD may be than what they are apparently showing their intention to be with their own in game videos?

Please reveal your inside of PD source that can confirm their intentions are entirely different from the only information they have publicly shown that actually gives any sort of insight into their intentions other than pure speculation by people that play the game and have nothing to do with what goes on within the company.

Granted the lap times using the videos limits can well be improved upon with later braking, faster mid corner and corner exit speeds but to run a faster lap does not necessarily mean that not using the designated Tarmac surface is what is intended by the game to do.




My argument is that the position of so many is this is what is allowed as PD intended or there would be a penalty.

The only proof of any kind that perhaps shows PD'S intentions is the only indicators of such as released by PD and that would be the narrated videos in the circuit experience that from PD is apparently to show the proper way to run a circuit.

Within those videos it is apparent the laps are being run with 2 tires remaining on the Tarmac in all cases so your argument that allowing off tarmac racing is the intention of PD rather than a proven time and time again broken penalty system within the game is what makes zero sense as compared to the actual facts and not purely speculation of a games users.

Show me any official from PD produced game related content that supports completely leaving the designated racing tarmac is a proper intended way of racing as defined or supported by PD.

I can show you videos from PD that support my position as being more than personal opinion or speculation can you do the same?

Until you can do so perhaps you should accept your position is based off of opinion only and everyone has one of those as well as other things while the presented facts from the game company that are to my knowledge the only official facts available on this matter show a different position.

I am waiting for you to show me your official proof from PD.

Both videos (my replay and those from circuit experience ) are "legal" laps. You choose to pick ones instead of the other as being the "correct" way of driving around the track. That's you subjective choice. The penalty system on the other way deems both laps legal.

Those laps are not the best reference for braking, decelerating, accelerating or turning. Why would they be for the driving line? They're, at best, a decent lap in all respects but not exemplary at any.

 

[kilesa4568]

That sounds like an excuse.

It is possible to get into the top 10 without corner cutting like T4 at Lago Maggiore. I did that not just once and i'm not the best driver around. I even did that on the same day ZZZ_pt did his lap which started this thread.

It's not an excuse at all. It's just the choice I've made about whether I use the cut or not. I've even said how I don't mind that people are using the cut as it stays within track limits but for my own immersion and enjoyment, I've chosen not to.

If sticking to tarmac feels better to me, I'll stick to tarmac. That's my only reason.

 

[Macboyilija]

I just wanted to state that it is funny that OP never insulted zzz_pt in his openingspost and very explicitly blamed PD for making this possible. He clearly stated that the video of zzz_pt was just an example of that and not an example of driving bad or cheating. Btw: great driving zzz_pt !

“Nothing against you mate rather games fault for not detecting it. Just posting an example”

But because all the “haters” were not reading very well they created an atmosphere as if zzz_pt was called a cheater by OP which later became a reality.

Those tracklimits are ridicilous and PD needs to correct them. Untill that moment some people are going to explore them. Which is pretty damn strange of PD since in real life it is impossible to have a perfect track limit system where in games this is the easiest thing ever.

Conclusion: not many seem to notice that we all agree here.

 

[Factor41]

So why not show a clean tidy lap using the games track limits if those limits are actually where PD intended for the players of the game to use as the actual surface to race on rather than the actual track as the video shows.

The guidance laps are a smooth, clean lap approach which will help a relative beginner to achieve a gold time on the circuit experience challenges without the risk of instability that comes with riding the kerbs.

Using the kerbs, while completely legal (see my post on p.12) isn't appropriate for many cars. Even within GT3, the McLaren is upset much more by bumps and kerbs than the AMG GT or Aston. As you play more, you find which lines best suit each car and how hard you can push them on each corner. The fastest line - the one with which you can carry the most speed through and out of the corner - often extends out onto the kerbs. Once you've run hundreds of laps and figured out these limits, it's fairly easy to go back and absolutely destroy the gold times that the videos are demonstrating.

Those tracklimits are ridicilous and PD needs to correct them. Untill that moment some people are going to explore them. Which is pretty damn strange of PD since in real life it is impossible to have a perfect track limit system where in games this is the easiest thing ever.

Conclusion: not many seem to notice that we all agree here.

The track limits on the OP are not ridiculous. With the exception of taking a bit of grass on T1, the only issue on that lap was the deep cut across T4. Kerbs are there to be used, in game and in real life - see MSA Guidance Note on Track Limits.

 

[kjeldsen]

As you read through this entire thread you see quite a few post that seem to present the attitude or deduction that these track limits and corner cutting are how PD intended the game to be played or the track limits would not be set as they are.

As far as anyone knowing what PD's intentions were or are would it not be best to examine the information released from PD regarding the best proper racing lines for or on a circuit to get a more realistic idea of PD's actual intentions as they do actually do so within the game?

The in game circuit experience section is a series of videos designed to teach a racer the tracks layout and the fastest bet way to negotiate each sector and corner of the circuit.

These video's in my opinion are also teaching players new to the game or franchise as to what is deemed acceptable in the terms of racing on each circuit and corner.

I went back and watched all of the in game associated video's for both Lago Maggiore and for the Nubergring GP circuit with the associated narration approved by PD prior to the games release.

In not one of those videos in ANY corner did the video ever show a car not having a minimum of two wheels on the actual track racing tarmac surface on any inside radius corner showing cutting the tracks length or original circuits design by leaving the designated tarmac surface.

As far as what PD has intended is better stated by what they themselves have released in game showing the proper line and way for racing each circuit and corner at maximum pace.

Using that information released and shown in game by PD themselves would go further to suggest that the current corner cutting is not an intended game design but more so an exploit of the games lack of proper application and coding of the penalty system for not assessing a penalty or invalidating a lap for taking such a line on the tracks in game.

I am in belief if this was an intended action or allowance of such laps being an expected faster way around a circuit they would have demonstrated these lines in their videos showing the fast and proper way to drive a track.

Harder to say that PD intended otherwise when a proper lap is plainly shown with complete narration as to how to drive the circuit straight out of the horses mouth.

Sorry but no. It can in no way be the players problem that the track limits are where PD set them up. Interlagos have very harsh limits on the straight, no complaints about those limits because that's how they set them up. If PD decides to tighten up some corners zero complaints as well. But right now you download the best q lap, watch where the limits are and go out there and use the track to its LIMITS.

 

[Crazy Taylor]

I must say that those said track limits did help me win (which is rarer than hens teeth is me getting a win)

 

[Turbo Racer 48]

So why not show a clean tidy lap using the games track limits if those limits are actually where PD intended for the players of the game to use as the actual surface to race on rather than the actual track as the video shows?

Again you somehow know more about what the intentions of PD may be than what they are apparently showing their intention to be with their own in game videos?

Please reveal your inside of PD source that can confirm their intentions are entirely different from the only information they have publicly shown that actually gives any sort of insight into their intentions other than pure speculation by people that play the game and have nothing to do with what goes on within the company.

Granted the lap times using the videos limits can well be improved upon with later braking, faster mid corner and corner exit speeds but to run a faster lap does not necessarily mean that not using the designated Tarmac surface is what is intended by the game to do.




My argument is that the position of so many is this is what is allowed as PD intended or there would be a penalty.

The only proof of any kind that perhaps shows PD'S intentions is the only indicators of such as released by PD and that would be the narrated videos in the circuit experience that from PD is apparently to show the proper way to run a circuit.

Within those videos it is apparent the laps are being run with 2 tires remaining on the Tarmac in all cases so your argument that allowing off tarmac racing is the intention of PD rather than a proven time and time again broken penalty system within the game is what makes zero sense as compared to the actual facts and not purely speculation of a games users.

Show me any official from PD produced game related content that supports completely leaving the designated racing tarmac is a proper intended way of racing as defined or supported by PD.

I can show you videos from PD that support my position as being more than personal opinion or speculation can you do the same?

Until you can do so perhaps you should accept your position is based off of opinion only and everyone has one of those as well as other things while the presented facts from the game company that are to my knowledge the only official facts available on this matter show a different position.

I am waiting for you to show me your official proof from PD.

The other item that could be considered here as to intent is where orange cone markers would be on the track particulary at the disputed T4. If and its an if (!() the Top 10 run way inside then might suggest it is not intended just like wall riding, pit glitches etc are not intended but can presently be exploited (despite PD attempting to fix the glitch already).

Note word exploit not cheat etc - its in gamers nature to game the game if possible......

I have to say this thread is fascinating to read as it throws up the underlying issue that PD has -- people desire to win at all costs versus the concept of sportmanship.

There is no easy answer as real life sport has exactly the same issue whether track limits on racing or diving for penalties in football...... thats why there are referees etc......

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Using the kerbs, while completely legal (see my post on p.12) isn't appropriate for many cars. Even within GT3, the McLaren is upset much more by bumps and kerbs than the AMG GT or Aston. As you play more, you find which lines best suit each car and how hard you can push them on each corner.

You again just give more to the reasoning that I so staunchly stick to my viewpoint as to why such limits should not be allowed in the game. That is one of advantages given for one gamer over another gamer within a specific competition.

In your example the AMG or Aston driver are then by definition actually using an exploit available to them but not the McLaren driver as the driver of the Mclaren cannot leave the designated track surface of the tarmac with the same amount of success as the other cars you mentioned.

Being that all cars can reasonably expect full performance of their vehicle on the tarmac surface even though one vehicles advantage may be in a different area of the track then performance of such cars is deemed equal by the BoP class standards.

When one vehicle though uses those same difference in traits to run a racing line and to access racing on surfaces which totally leave the designated tarmac of the racetrack therefore changing the course layout and possibly artificially straightening out a turn more than intended by the designated course design therefore raising the speed attained within that sector , shortening the length of the lap from the length that would be run how does
that not become an exploit because that same advantage is not given to the McLaren driver as his vehicle does not by design allow the same off track excursion with the same results?

Needing to pick a different car so that it is possible to compete on the same circuit because of people using an exploit is not a lot different than needing to use the Megaine or the Beetle is races if you really wanted to be competitive in the race and was an mistake or exploit available that PD did eventually fix.

Your photo clearly shows a car with two wheels remaining on the tarmac of the actual designated racing surface.

PD may never change this but it still does not make it the correct path to follow within the game as it does not accurately reflect the fastest lap times available on any given circuit, only the fastest lap time leaving the circuit completely where it is convenient and not picked up by a broken penalty system.

 

[Swift20B]

I have a feeling that when they release a new version of Deep Forest and Trial Mountain, that they'll either wall them up or penalize those who use those 20 year old shortcuts.

 

[cleanLX]

The way I see all of this is;
a. race the game.
b. race your personal morals.

Me, I don't race Alsace Village, hate that "track", nor do I race Tokyo, hate wall riders, or Interlagos, hate dive bombers and grass mowers, nor do I race the "ovals"...
Having watched many a sports-car race at Nurb GP I'm ok with what goes on there.
Lake Maggiore... guess I'll watch and see what happens there... I've tried running @zzz_pt 's lines, and they are not easy... and they are not going to significantly make me "faster".
While "I" don't like those lines, I do not fault him for racing the game... and that stems from knowing what is acceptable in real life at Nurb GP and COTA and several others who's names escape me... But watch motorsports on the TV and tell me racers are not using all the track that is permissible.

I'd like PD to fix... "2 tires inside the white line" as a rule... not because I think it will magically propel me into the top 10 (or even 1000) just because "I" think that is doable across the board, recognizable to all, and currently the "blanket" rule in real life.

 

[Outspacer]

There is no easy answer...

Yes there is, it's just that you don't like it! == Play the game in front of you.

It seems to me that PD meant to put the limits where they did, so that's that.

You want PITA limits, play PCars2, and try to gauge where the centre of your car is!

 

[cleanLX]

Very nice race management sir.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I like how your analysis of a hidden meaning of narrated track runthroughs are "official facts" of PD's intentions;

All I can say I have seen nothing else that PD has released publicly or announced in game that contradicts such as that being PD's official opinion on a properly run race lap and that section covers every course and corner in the game.

Show me something that PD has made public by video or announcement that the HIDDEN AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE UNMENTIONED BY PD excessive poorly controlled track limits and broken penalty system that fails to recognize such extreme cases of this exploit and perhaps I will change my opinion but currently I still place the blame on poorly executed quality control within the game concerning track limits and a very badly coded and implemented penalty system that has a problem with consistency or properly applying penalties throughout the game concerning many facets of the game.

I am now waiting for your official support of your opinion. I can at least present facts that do support my claims that are from within the game itself and a part of the games instructional package. Please show me where PD supports the hidden track limits in a public environment.

 

[GTRacer22]

I have a feeling that when they release a new version of Deep Forest and Trial Mountain, that they'll either wall them up or penalize those who use those 20 year old shortcuts.

I’m not sure what shortcuts you mean when you talk about Trial Mountain?

 

[kjeldsen]

You again just give more to the reasoning that I so staunchly stick to my viewpoint as to why such limits should not be allowed in the game. That is one of advantages given for one gamer over another gamer within a specific competition.

In your example the AMG or Aston driver are then by definition actually using an exploit available to them but not the McLaren driver as the driver of the Mclaren cannot leave the designated track surface of the tarmac with the same amount of success as the other cars you mentioned.

Being that all cars can reasonably expect full performance of their vehicle on the tarmac surface even though one vehicles advantage may be in a different area of the track then performance of such cars is deemed equal by the BoP class standards.

When one vehicle though uses those same difference in traits to run a racing line and to access racing on surfaces which totally leave the designated tarmac of the racetrack therefore changing the course layout and possibly artificially straightening out a turn more than intended by the designated course design therefore raising the speed attained within that sector , shortening the length of the lap from the length that would be run how does
that not become an exploit because that same advantage is not given to the McLaren driver as his vehicle does not by design allow the same off track excursion with the same results?

Needing to pick a different car so that it is possible to compete on the same circuit because of people using an exploit is not a lot different than needing to use the Megaine or the Beetle is races if you really wanted to be competitive in the race and was an mistake or exploit available that PD did eventually fix.

Your photo clearly shows a car with two wheels remaining on the tarmac of the actual designated racing surface.

PD may never change this but it still does not make it the correct path to follow within the game as it does not accurately reflect the fastest lap times available on any given circuit, only the fastest lap time leaving the circuit completely where it is convenient and not picked up by a broken penalty system.

The game knows if the car is on the defined track nothing to debate about there, you can argue the track should be defined in another way but thats it. In the real world, some cars handle curbs etc better than others, just like in the game. And there is NOTHING broken about a penalty system that punishes EVERYONE equally and the game even has 100% transparency on how to achieve the same lap times..

 

[Factor41]

In your example the AMG or Aston driver are then by definition actually using an exploit available to them but not the McLaren driver as the driver of the Mclaren cannot leave the designated track surface of the tarmac with the same amount of success as the other cars you mentioned.

Being that all cars can reasonably expect full performance of their vehicle on the tarmac surface even though one vehicles advantage may be in a different area of the track then performance of such cars is deemed equal by the BoP class standards.

When one vehicle though uses those same difference in traits to run a racing line and to access racing on surfaces which totally leave the designated tarmac of the racetrack therefore changing the course layout and possibly artificially straightening out a turn more than intended by the designated course design therefore raising the speed attained within that sector , shortening the length of the lap from the length that would be run how does
that not become an exploit because that same advantage is not given to the McLaren driver as his vehicle does not by design allow the same off track excursion with the same results?

Different cars behave differently. The McLaren is less prone to understeer than the Aston so pick the one that suits how you drive. The McLaren can use the kerbs, but you have to be aware that it can become unsettled more easily than others. The actual issue is that you're not allowed to tune the cars in Sport mode, as softening off the suspension a touch would probably help the McLaren.

Your photo clearly shows a car with two wheels remaining on the tarmac of the actual designated racing surface.

PD may never change this but it still does not make it the correct path to follow within the game as it does not accurately reflect the fastest lap times available on any given circuit, only the fastest lap time leaving the circuit completely where it is convenient and not picked up by a broken penalty system.

This is the run to the start/finish at Silverstone. What you need to acknowledge is that, while this car would now be subject to a penalty for that left rear, the "actual designated racing surface" extends right out to the left-hand side of the red and white area, the green section being considered 'grass'. In the photo, the left front tyre is also legally within - and judging by the angle of its slide, was always within - the legal width of the track.

 

[Mr P]

I’m not sure what shortcuts you mean when you talk about Trial Mountain?

I think he means this part..

 

[Tornado]

hidden track limits

Interesting. Hidden from who?

All I can say I have seen nothing else that PD has released publicly or announced in game that contradicts such as that being PD's official opinion on a properly run race lap and that section covers every course and corner in the game.

Those laps are not the best reference for braking, decelerating, accelerating or turning. Why would they be for the driving line?

In your example the AMG or Aston driver are then by definition actually using an exploit available to them but not the McLaren driver as the driver of the Mclaren cannot leave the designated track surface of the tarmac with the same amount of success as the other cars you mentioned.

"Why can't I win with Ken? I followed the flowchart exactly."

 

[Jumbone1]

The guidance laps are a smooth, clean lap approach which will help a relative beginner to achieve a gold time on the circuit experience challenges without the risk of instability that comes with riding the kerbs.

Using the kerbs, while completely legal (see my post on p.12) isn't appropriate for many cars. Even within GT3, the McLaren is upset much more by bumps and kerbs than the AMG GT or Aston. As you play more, you find which lines best suit each car and how hard you can push them on each corner. The fastest line - the one with which you can carry the most speed through and out of the corner - often extends out onto the kerbs. Once you've run hundreds of laps and figured out these limits, it's fairly easy to go back and absolutely destroy the gold times that the videos are demonstrating.



The track limits on the OP are not ridiculous. With the exception of taking a bit of grass on T1, the only issue on that lap was the deep cut across T4. Kerbs are there to be used, in game and in real life - see MSA Guidance Note on Track Limits.

Thanks for posting MSA Notes with the photos of acceptable/unacceptable cutting examples. That should be the basis for penalty/invalid laps in GT sport and other racing games. If that was the case top times would be quite a bit slower at most tracks.

 

[JacksHerer]

I think he means this part..

LOL

 

[Factor41]

Thanks for posting MSA Notes with the photos of acceptable/unacceptable cutting examples. That should be the basis for penalty/invalid laps in GT sport and other racing games. If that was the case top times would be quite a bit slower at most tracks.

I think the issue comes with examples like T4 and the banked hairpin at Magggiore where there's a red and white kerb, but within that is a surface other than grass. Does that count as even more kerb? Can you use that area right up to the wall? In the game, as in real life, there are situations that need organiser discretion in interpreting and applying the rules. In those situations, how do we find the limits? We push further and further until the Clerk of the Course says no!

 

[GTRacer22]

I think he means this part..

Well I think we can rule out that anyone who cuts that chicane is stupid.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Sorry but no. It can in no way be the players problem that the track limits are where PD set them up. Interlagos have very harsh limits on the straight, no complaints about those limits because that's how they set them up. If PD decides to tighten up some corners zero complaints as well. But right now you download the best q lap, watch where the limits are and go out there and use the track to its LIMITS.

I have never said that using the limits was not legal within the game or that anyone using what I feel is an exploit that should be fixed by PD is doing anything wrong personally for using what is allowed.

My two main arguments the track limits should be uniform among all tracks and corners and that I do not feel that PD has advertised or supported the use of these extreme and sometime ridiculous amounts of "deemed legal" track limits.

My other argument is that the wall riding on Tokyo is the exact same as this ridiculous, allowed in some places and not others, currently legal within the game, available for use or exploit and one cannot be called a glitch or exploit without both being called the same as they both meet the exact same in game criteria and they both give an advantage to those that do it over those that do not.

Of course the track limit supporters do not agree in any aspect .

But as long as the game deems both of the practices legal that is just the way it is and those that choose to run using those limits will and those that do not will not.

No difference in the discussion on driver aids or whether a wheel or controller have an advantage over each other.

One camp believes one way another camp the opposite.

I personally do not approve of either the extreme track limits or wall riding as being actually allowed within the game.

I will never change peoples minds in this thread but unless I am shown different proof that contradicts the only that I am aware of in game videos that contradicts what PD themselves show as being their interpretation of how a proper lap should be run within the game then I will maintain that exceeding those limits are an exploit that unfortunately is not penalized within the game.

When someone can show an official PD document or video released for public viewing either in game or from some other documented source that shows a different view from PD please share such.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that has been produced any documentation made available from PD in some sort of official capacity that supports my or any opinion actually of whether the excessive track limits are intended or just bad coding and their use is just an un- penalized exploit.

Other than that all has been just others speculation and opinions as far as PD'S official opinion on the matter.

Waiting for that proof, until then I am done with this conversation.