Track Limit Abuse by most Top 10 Drivers

[zzz_pt]

When someone can show an official PD document or video released for public viewing either in game or from some other documented source that shows a different view from PD please share such.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that has been produced any documentation made available from PD in some sort of official capacity that supports my or any opinion actually of whether the excessive track limits are intended or just bad coding and their use is just an un- penalized exploit.

Other than that all has been just others speculation and opinions as far as PD'S official opinion on the matter.

Waiting for that proof, until then I am done with this conversation.

10 years of PD not changing the game's penalty system on track limits is a pretty solid basis to contradict your view. With several GT Academy editions where track limits were, often, 2 wheels on the grass for a good portion of a flying lap.

This is not to say that the limits could be stricter. That's another conversation.

 

[Rinsky]

Before we get started, you should note that I haven't said that I don't think games should follow real life rules at all. That's a strawman on your part to make me easy to shoot down.

Sorry it took me awhile to reply.
I never said that you said any of that.
I was just asking you a question and wondered if that's the way you felt because your response before was kinda vague. You answered my questions. All is good.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

10 years of PD not changing the game's penalty system on track limits is a pretty solid basis to contradict your view. With several GT Academy editions where track limits were, often, 2 wheels on the grass for a good portion of a flying lap.

Actually anything allowed or not allowed from past games does not always hold true as to what may or nor be in or allowed in a different newer version and a game that claims to be more focused on online play than any of the franchises predecessors.

Past games focus was no where near the level of online play as this game and playing mainly offline the main concerns of the game would have been AI behavior more than another humans exploits resulting in affecting the equal play within your game.

Compared to the current version the online GT Academy was a very small part of the past games content where this game is the opposite and more is focused online than offline.

So because something was included a number of years ago does not validate something similar in a current version.

Still not proof just more speculation or opinion.

From using a similar viewpoint or line of thinking as you perhaps it is just the same person doing the track limit coding for all game versions and they are just not very good at maintaining tight track limits throughout different corners or circuits and overall just suck at doing their job.

Not saying this is the case but just as possible or reasonable as the speculation you are spewing.

 

[Macboyilija]

10 years of PD not changing the game's penalty system on track limits is a pretty solid basis to contradict your view. With several GT Academy editions where track limits were, often, 2 wheels on the grass for a good portion of a flying lap.

And by this you mean PD does this on purpose ? Sometimes developers are not “listening” because there is no place to listen. And the last thing they want is go through forums like this one. Most of the times its all crap and stupidity for them. The first post about 10 brand new cars and the first reaction is “we want more tracks”. Not even “thank you, but we want more tracks”. Would you as a publisher go through such a pile of garbage and do what we want them to do ?

I always am impressed by how vast people sometimes believe that everything is done on purpose and thoroughly investigated before implemented. What happens a lot is luck involved and random decisions. For that reason there are bug sections and updates in games.

Like 4FOURMAX1 said on earlier pages: show me some evidence that this is what PD wants.


EDIT: you were answering the same quote at the same time with the same words

 

[MilkandMelk]

"dude I almost had you"
"It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning"

doesn't matter if they went off track an inch or a mile
if it's legal, it's should be fine
and if PD makes track abuse like that illegal. So be it

 

[zzz_pt]

Like 4FOURMAX1 said: show me some evidence that this is what PD wants.

The evidence is in the flying lap itself. Or do you think the penalty system was implemented like PD do not want it implemented? I guess you do but neither of us has any evidence of what PD want or not. We only have what we have, and what we have allows us to use the white curb as part of the track on the inside and use the grey tarmac on the outside of corner exit too. The red parts are what limits the track. i guess they're painted red on purpose because that's what PD wanted.

 

[Woodybobs]

Waiting for that proof

I don't think proof is needed. It's very unlikely the devs simply expected people to stay between the lines. One doesn't need to have met too many humans to know this wouldn't happen. An oversight like that is incomprehensible.

 

[Jumbone1]

I think the issue comes with examples like T4 and the banked hairpin at Magggiore where there's a red and white kerb, but within that is a surface other than grass. Does that count as even more kerb? Can you use that area right up to the wall? In the game, as in real life, there are situations that need organiser discretion in interpreting and applying the rules. In those situations, how do we find the limits? We push further and further until the Clerk of the Course says no!

The first strip of red/white kerb is typical kerbing found at most race tracks. As in the MSA examples.

In some corners like T4 or hairpin, beyond this first strip of kerbing you will find raised kerbstones and high sausage kerbs designed to prevent cutting in real life by unsettling and damaging the car. In most corners/chicanes like this in real life series, there would be pre event discussion on what is allowed. For most inside cuts the max acceptable rule is that some part of the car should be in contact with the 1st strip of red/white kerb, although usually cutting tolerance is normally more strict is some part of the wheels/tyres having to be in contact with the tarmac racing surface.

The main issues in GTS that compound this issue are-

- Poor cutting rules in general, that are not clearly identified or obvious.

- Unrealistic off road physics/damage modeling/suspension behaviour.

- Offline grip is too high, no tyre marbles.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Or do you think the penalty system was implemented like PD do not want it implemented?

I am sure that PD wanted the penalty system to give a penalty to the innocent driver on the outside line of a corner rather than penalize the correct driver that overshoots his line from the inside and hits the outside car.

I am sure PD wanted the penalty system to randomly give a penalty to the innocent driver that drove by the ghosted cars that crashed under the yellow flag as well.

I am sure that PD wanted the penalty system to NOT give a penalty to the wall riders on the Tokyo track as well.

Using the current penalty system in use in GTS as any kind of justification for anything is a joke within itself as unreliable and broken as that system is on getting penalties handed out correctly.

Hell, maybe the same guy that wrote the code for the track limits is the one that wrote the code for the penalty system.

As they are currently they are both a joke and major failure.

 

[zzz_pt]

I am sure that PD wanted the penalty system to give a penalty to the innocent driver on the outside line of a corner rather than penalize the correct driver that overshoots his line from the inside and hits the outside car.

I am sure PD wanted the penalty system to randomly give a penalty to the innocent driver that drove by the ghosted cars that crashed under the yellow flag as well.

I am sure that PD wanted the penalty system to NOT give a penalty to the wall riders on the Tokyo track as well.

Using the current penalty system in use in GTS as any kind of justification for anything is a joke within itself as unreliable and broken as that system is on getting penalties handed out correctly.

Hell, maybe the same guy that wrote the code for the track limits is the one that wrote the code for the penalty system.

As they are currently they are both a joke and major failure.

The examples you gave are new to the game and I agree, they need fixing.

Loose track limits have been part of GT for a decade. I member people complaining on one of the GT Academy qualifiers with the Nissan 350Z (or 370Z) around a fictional track created for GTA. Top drivers were riding with 2 wheels on the grass for a good part of the lap and in one of the sections where there was a large, high speed chicance, all of them would cut it the most. PD changed nothing and we're talking about GT Academy.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I have a feeling that when they release a new version of Deep Forest and Trial Mountain, that they'll either wall them up or penalize those who use those 20 year old shortcuts.

I hope they at least fix the final chicane on Sarthe when it comes out. That was a joke online, actually the other chicanes were a joke as well.

I don't think proof is needed. It's very unlikely the devs simply expected people to stay between the lines. One doesn't need to have met too many humans to know this wouldn't happen. An oversight like that is incomprehensible.

Well, it seems PD expected the SR system to make online racing clean as well... I think they're just very naive when it comes to online gaming...

 

[ScottPuss20]

You do whatever you can within the defined track limits. It may not seem fair but if you can do it, do it. The Nurburgring GP track is a prime example. If you want to set a fast time, you have to abuse track limits on the outside of the first and fourth corner.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The examples you gave are new to the game and I agree, they need fixing.

Loose track limits have been part of GT for a decade. I member people complaining on one of the GT Academy qualifiers with the Nissan 350Z (or 370Z) around a fictional track created for GTA. Top drivers were riding with 2 wheels on the grass for a good part of the lap and in one of the sections where there was a large, high speed chicance, all of them would cut it the most. PD changed nothing and we're talking about GT Academy.

Two wheels in the grass isn't normally illegal in racing so long as the other two are on the tarmac. Not aware of the chicane issue but if it was also two wheels on the grass and two on the tarmac that's not an issue either from a legal lap standpoint. Both could be an issue from a physics/realism standpoint depending on how rough the section of track is though.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Loose track limits have been part of GT for a decade. I member people complaining on one of the GT Academy qualifiers with the Nissan 350Z (or 370Z) around a fictional track created for GTA. Top drivers were riding with 2 wheels on the grass for a good part of the lap and in one of the sections where there was a large, high speed chicance, all of them would cut it the most. PD changed nothing and we're talking about GT Academy

I was playing around seeing what the limits were on Maggiore since this thread started and if I remember correctly in the series of esses that there were a couple of the corners that barely any attempt at even cutting the inside radius of the corner would garner the red penalty box.

Just no rhyme or reason how a corner a few turns earlier on the same course can allow two full car widths completely off the tarmac and not be a penalty while a few corners later just placing an inner wheel past the curbing edge and the other wheels are still on the tarmac is going to cost you penalty time.

This type of variance corner to corner as far as cutting between being deemed allowable to being penalized even on the same circuit is just not something that such a variance should be deemed reasonable for a game being marketed to the masses and not to just serious racing enthusiast.

To top it all off the differences are only actually discoverable by trial and error to "find" the limits for each corner. Watching replays may show some or the most commonly abused but even watching the replay does not show where that limit is actually located only that a driver is pushing an invisible limit on that corner.

How anyone can think this type of issue is good for the game is beyond me.

 

[Woodybobs]

proof

I'm not 100% sure, it looks to me that at least three wheels are over the line on the exit of t4 in the circuit training video for the first sector of nurb gp. Sorry if this isn't one of the contentious corners, or if it's been proven wrong already.

 

[Macboyilija]

To top it all off the differences are only actually discoverable by trial and error to "find" the limits for each corner. Watching replays may show some or the most commonly abused but even watching the replay does not show where that limit is actually located only that a driver is pushing an invisible limit on that corner.

How anyone can think this type of issue is good for the game is beyond me.

Very well spoken. Regardless that exploring the limits and bounderies is logical, but if you create a simple rule that 2 wheels need to stay on the track at all times, and the white line correspondents to the border of that track, there is no need for these kind of discussions. The rules always apply and are simple to implement. Its just basic computer programming, instead of the more complex and difficult penalty/rating system.

Make sure these rules apply in all modes, practice, time attack, online and offline. No differences there. Add some major losing grip when outside of that track with 2 wheels and you have a simple and fair solution to something that should have never been a problem in the first place.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I'm not 100% sure, it looks to me that at least three wheels are over the line on the exit of t4 in the circuit training video for the first sector of nurb gp. Sorry if this isn't one of the contentious corners, or if it's been proven wrong already

Find the same on any for the inside radius on the corners as that is where you would shorten the length of the circuit and actually be cutting the corners.

 

[zzz_pt]

I was playing around seeing what the limits were on Maggiore since this thread started and if I remember correctly in the series of esses that there were a couple of the corners that barely any attempt at even cutting the inside radius of the corner would garner the red penalty box.

Just no rhyme or reason how a corner a few turns earlier on the same course can allow two full car widths completely off the tarmac and not be a penalty while a few corners later just placing an inner wheel past the curbing edge and the other wheels are still on the tarmac is going to cost you penalty time.

This type of variance corner to corner as far as cutting between being deemed allowable to being penalized even on the same circuit is just not something that such a variance should be deemed reasonable for a game being marketed to the masses and not to just serious racing enthusiast.

To top it all off the differences are only actually discoverable by trial and error to "find" the limits for each corner. Watching replays may show some or the most commonly abused but even watching the replay does not show where that limit is actually located only that a driver is pushing an invisible limit on that corner.

How anyone can think this type of issue is good for the game is beyond me.

Did anyone say that the track limits or penalty system is good? Or that the lap was good because it was within those limits? Two different things.

Most people, me included, think that the track limits in some places could be stricter. But that doesn't make the laps currently made by a lot of players bad laps. If the limits are there, they will be explored.

This thread turned into a really boring conversation. But at least those calling me (and pretty much every top10 driver) a cheater, exploiter, unethical or uneducated are not here anymore.

I'll keep racing to the limits of the track when that's the fastest way around it. If thise limits are changed I'll push those new limits as I do now. I don't care about moral judgements or character misconceptions people might make or have. What it counts is if we meet on track, I'll be fair and drive within whatever limits we're racing with.

I'm taking part on @MINKIHL 's Championship and the rules there are not the same the game has. We have stricter track limits, penalties for crossing the pit lane and the drivers can report incidents to be reviews post race. I have lots of fun racing with those rules too.

But the game's rules are what they are and I'll play the game by those.

 

[Bruunz]

I tried to read this whole thread then i really couldn't take is seriously after about 11 pages.

Original OP comments are fair but the whole cheating and not cheating is ridiculous Nothing is black and white.

Does everyone not realise Motorsport is about how well you can cheat / interpret the rules? Motor racing isn't about being honest or nice. Those people don't win. It's about using every available tool to your advantage to be faster than someone else. Includes track limits, vehicles design or even managing a race.

https://jalopnik.com/how-the-best-racing-cheat-of-all-time-worked-1792828060

Here's a good read. Take note how the FIA appreciated the effort that went into this cheat.

Things like this are an ingrained part of of racing.

A good techincal read, https://jalopnik.com/suzukis-new-gsx-r1000-is-engineered-around-a-loophole-i-1751372078

 

[Woodybobs]

Find the same on any for the inside radius on the corners as that is where you would shorten the length of the circuit and actually be cutting the corners.

Granted, they're not quite the same, but PD are advising us to leave the track. Are you ok with people leaving the track to increase cornering speed and find extra acceleration?

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Granted, they're not quite the same, but PD are advising us to leave the track. Are you ok with people leaving the track to increase cornering speed and find extra acceleration

That corner in my opinion shows a very slight overun, not a blatant lets ignore the tracks layout and go this way instead as some corners seem to allow.
As a result I personally do have a different view of the two.

 

[Woodybobs]

How much further should that driver be allowed to go? No matter what the answer is there will be people who disagree with it.

We can only guess what PD's rules are. Some people will break them even if they are punished for it. Without penalties a lot of people will push the boundaries as far as they can because they know that their idea of track limits is not the same as the next person. Quite a few people disagreeing with you have said they'd be happy to see stricter rules regarding track limits (I agree with them, and you, on this). That might never happen though. It's unrealistic to expect people to stick to their idea of track limits when they're in a race with 20 strangers who may, or may not, have different opinions on the matter. It's this confusion that makes people push till they're punished.

Regarding the wall riding, there's much less confusion with the rules here. People don't have to worry about how far into the wall is too far. One either wall rides or they don't.

 

[ManifoldBolt]

In doing time trials in pc2 if I cut corners the race director disqualified my current lap and following lap. I have a hard time getting a lap time recorded.

 

[Famine]

We can only guess what PD's rules are.

We've got about 20 years of very strong evidence for what PD's rules are. They vary a little and there are areas where the rules are different, but the undercurrent for all licence, mission and coffee break disqualifications and all invalidated laps across all Gran Turismo games are:

* Collision*
* All four wheels in the grass/gravel

On almost all occasions throughout all of the GT games, all lines, kerbs and concrete have been valid driving surfaces, and a driver can place two wheels beyond even those without hearing Yello's "Oh Yeah", or getting a red lap. In some games a third wheel has been too much, while some require a fourth. In some corners - and I think Nurburgring GP/F and GP/D's Turn 4 exit has previously been among them, in GT5 - the track limit is closer to the white line/kerb you'd expect, although you won't necessarily know that until you've gone too far.


*Although this has been exploitable right back to GT1's Licence Tests, as the game does not register some types of collisions as collisions, allowing wallriding. It clearly should, but doesn't necessarily always do so, putting wallriding in a slightly different category than exploration of track limits

 

[Skiddy]

It is relevant to the discussion. Ever since GT Academy was a thing people who weren't just trying to get free cars have complained that PD's established track limits aren't fair to those who claim they are arbitrarily limiting themselves and as a result losing out to those who weren't. This has already been pointed out in this thread. Should people have limited themselves to how the AI raced in GT6 in the GT6 Academy events, slowing down on straightaways if they are going too fast and not even touching curbs unless it is a hairpin? Were those the "guidelines" that players needed to be shackled to then?

It is irelevant, you posted some old video about how slow the AI is. What I am trying to show is that the track limits, the way PD sees them, can be observed in the way the AI uses the track. I watched how AI drives on that particular track, they never cut corners like that. The AI can 'see' the true boundaries of the track, and tries to drive accordingly. Zzz on the other hand, ingores them, and cuts corners how he sees fit, then gives exuse that he didn't get penalised. This is a clear case of an exploit of the bug.. No way that the lap he did would be considered clean by any normal standards.

But to some members here, i guess, this is perfectly normal. I wonder why they complain there's not enough tracks, zzz here can carve a new layout in a heart beat.

 

[dylan86_exe]

Did anyone say that the track limits or penalty system is good? Or that the lap was good because it was within those limits? Two different things.

Most people, me included, think that the track limits in some places could be stricter. But that doesn't make the laps currently made by a lot of players bad laps. If the limits are there, they will be explored.

This thread turned into a really boring conversation. But at least those calling me (and pretty much every top10 driver) a cheater, exploiter, unethical or uneducated are not here anymore.

I'll keep racing to the limits of the track when that's the fastest way around it. If thise limits are changed I'll push those new limits as I do now. I don't care about moral judgements or character misconceptions people might make or have. What it counts is if we meet on track, I'll be fair and drive within whatever limits we're racing with.

I'm taking part on @MINKIHL 's Championship and the rules there are not the same the game has. We have stricter track limits, penalties for crossing the pit lane and the drivers can report incidents to be reviews post race. I have lots of fun racing with those rules too.

But the game's rules are what they are and I'll play the game by those.

That's cool. Just don't expect to be respected because of it. You're not a driver of talent. You're one of exploitation.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

I would like to know if people agree or disagree that getting a penalty should lead to an invalid lap.

Although in most instances, you can't get a penalty and still get the fastest lap possible. In some cars and tracks, you can get a penalty (gaining a big advantage on the time you cut), and it will come off by the nature of the following corners (even pushing at 10/10).

In my opinion, it should invalidate the lap.

 

[zzz_pt]

That's cool. Just don't expect to be respected because of it. You're not a driver of talent. You're one of exploitation.

Nice to meet you too, I guess.

 

[Tou2istTrophy]

That's cool. Just don't expect to be respected because of it. You're not a driver of talent. You're one of exploitation.

Sorry for double posting...

But that is really not cool and you have no idea what you are talking about...

 

[dylan86_exe]

Sorry for double posting...

But that is really not cool and you have no idea what you are talking about...

There's nothing to get.
He's aware of an exploitation and taking advantage of it. There's nothing wrong with it (technically), it's just not respected.
May as well exploit the pit bug while you're at it. It's PDs fault after all..