Transgender Thread.

[Dan]

What if the trans person "prefers" some weird, invented pronouns today and another one next week? Should everyone who deals with that person be compelled by law to use whatever he/she/they/zey/ad infinitum happens to identify as?

___

Does the law say anything about the pronouns themselves? Does it apply to only "he" and "she"? Or can anyone go to jail for tumblr pronouns?

My pronouns are "Your Majesty/His Majesty."

 

[Johnnypenso]

Obviously jailtime seems a little excessive (and that fine/jailtime looks like it's for breaching any part of the elderly care act bill).

However if it's deliberate and repeated 'mis-gendering', couldn't it be considered harrassment in the same way that repeatedly calling someone racial, sexist or homophobic slurs could be?

If I give you (proverbial you, not you) repeated dirty looks is that also harrassment? If I refuse to sit beside you on a bus or subway is that harassment? If I talk about you to someone else in front of you so you can hear is that also harassment? If I talk negatively about transgenderism to another person in front of you so you can hear, is that also harassment? Should it only apply to transgenders? How far do we want to take harassment? How far do we go in compelling the speech of another person?

 

[mustafur]

Why is it ok to say someone with Body Dysphoria has a problem but not one with Gender Dysphoria?

I mean if you look at it statistically Gender Dysphoria has serious problems with suicides(that alteast on paper look related to the Dysphoria) that would be just as damaging as one with Anorexia and not eating enough to survive?

Would you say it's okay to promote a childs desire to be anorexic or wanting to chop off limbs acceptable?

Why is it okay when it comes to Gender?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why is it ok to say someone with Body Dysphoria has a problem but not one with Gender Dysphoria?

Your conflation is confusing. Interventions are sensible in either case if the "sufferer" is at risk of harming themselves through their thoughts or actions. No interventions are required if they're not, surely?

"Gee, I wish I was as tall as my friends" is body dysphoria. "Gee, I'd look better if I cut my arm off" is too. See how applying one set of thinking to the whole spectrum is fairly useless?

Would you say it's okay to promote a childs desire to be anorexic...

Not okay to promote anybody's desire to be anorexic (although that's an eating disorder and not an inevitable function of body disphoria) because it risks the death of the organism.

...or wanting to chop off limbs acceptable?

Promoting that clearly isn't a good idea either. I think we'd commonly accept that wanting to remove limbs is a sign of an extreme state of mind. That's what should be investigated and treated in a sufferer - at that point a simple overarching term like "body dysphoria" is a chocolate teapot.

 

[mustafur]

Your conflation is confusing. Interventions are sensible in either case if the "sufferer" is at risk of harming themselves through their thoughts or actions. No interventions are required if they're not, surely?

"Gee, I wish I was as tall as my friends" is body dysphoria. "Gee, I'd look better if I cut my arm off" is too. See how applying one set of thinking to the whole spectrum is fairly useless?



Not okay to promote anybody's desire to be anorexic (although that's an eating disorder and not an inevitable function of body disphoria) because it risks the death of the organism.



Promoting that clearly isn't a good idea either. I think we'd commonly accept that wanting to remove limbs is a sign of an extreme state of mind. That's what should be investigated and treated in a sufferer - at that point a simple overarching term like "body dysphoria" is a chocolate teapot.

But when you get a Dysphoria that results in a fine and punishment if you mention it as a Psychological disorder(which it is) and others that don't it's getting pretty ridiculous.

I mean we don't exactly have any proven method to cure Dysphoria other then someone getting out of it themselves so do we just come to a point where we promote the ones we like and disprove the ones we don't(like who has the subjective measure for this?)

If someone wants their limbs cut off but in a way that doesn't fatally hurt them selves do we disprove(since it's only them being harmed) the same way someone with gender dysphoria does the same thing with their genitals and does irreversible surgery to them selves how is it really any different(apart from the public being able to see them lacking an arm or leg as opposed to a genital your not going to see unless you do the business)?

 

[Com Fox]

I thought Gender Dysphoria was always treated as a mental disorder.

The way to help it and how it is handled is treated different than other disorders like body dysphoria, I'm assuming it is is because if you look it at the surface, it is just people seeing themselves as different genders. Of course when you look deeper into this when it comes to suicides which is heavily linked with people of Gender Dysphoria it gets immensely tricky.

Heard arguments about just accepting Trans people however, this shows that male transgender suicide attempts are 46% while female transgender suicides is only slightly more better with 41% https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf meanwhile 13.26 per 100,000 people attempt suicide https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/. This would mean with 13.26 almost half of it is from people with Gender Dysphoria. (Unless I got my math wrong).

However (throwing my own 2 cents in) it probably has more to do with Depression and less to do with Gender Dysphoria however I also think Gender Dysphoria only makes Depression worse due to the alienation it can cause people with it, as it is over 50 percent on people who die from suicide have Depression: https://www.theovernight.org/?fuseaction=cms.page&id=1034

 

[TenEightyOne]

But when you get a Dysphoria that results in a fine and punishment if you mention it as a Psychological disorder(which it is) and others that don't it's getting pretty ridiculous.

Source for that happening - as much for me to understand your point as anything?

I mean we don't exactly have any proven method to cure Dysphoria other then someone getting out of it themselves so do we just come to a point where we promote the ones we like and disprove the ones we don't(like who has the subjective measure for this?)

Many illnesses (both mental and physical) aren't curable - does that mean that doctors/family/friends shouldn't try to help or gain more understand of such conditions?

If someone wants their limbs cut off but in a way that doesn't fatally hurt them selves do we disprove(since it's only them being harmed) the same way someone with gender dysphoria does the same thing with their genitals and does irreversible surgery to them selves how is it really any different(apart from the public being able to see them lacking an arm or leg as opposed to a genital your not going to see unless you do the business)?

If somebody wants to cut their own (presumably healthy) leg off then that's fine. The A&E will still treat them afterwards (or in the US the ER, insurance depending). If they ask a doctor to amputate a healthy limb then the answer will likely be no (Hippocratic oath). In other cases it's perfectly acceptable for somebody to ask to have a limb amputated. I know a biker who smashed his leg up a couple of years ago and has just had an elective below-the-knee amputation to alleviate the constant pain and resulting mental torture.

Now, presuming that gender transition is a simple as having the 'nads off and going back to work in a dressing then I accept that the case seems a little crazy, that's because it is.

If somebody is mentally convinced that they're in a body of the wrong gender (a decision that isn't usually made in a single afternoon) then why shouldn't the patient's mental state lead to appropriate evaluation, counselling and then a consideration of surgery? It's a position that other people genuinely find themselves in and one which is accepted as real by psychiatrists and doctors in no small number. Just because you can't imagine being in that permanent state of mind doesn't mean that people can't be.

 

[mustafur]

@RISHIRAM5 Likely but we don't have the real statistics for it, Gender Dysphoria really doesn't have much science to say about it apart from it exists and there is a high percentage suicide rate.

Hopefully we get more progress on this in the future.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Gender Dysphoria really doesn't have much science to say about it apart from it exists

Utter rubbish. It's been the subject of strong research for over 30 years.

You missed out answering some of my questions too

 

[Danoff]

Here's an article on gender dysphoria vs. body dysmorphia

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-gender-dysphoria-different-than-body-dysmorphia

Not that I necessarily agree with every word, or every conclusion in the article, but it's important context for the discussion.

 

[mustafur]

Utter rubbish. It's been the subject of strong research for over 30 years.

You missed out answering some of my questions too

I posted that as you answered mine then went and got wasted lol(it was friday night).

Tbh none of this is my view points I just wanted to see how this would hold up from a video I saw from Ben Shapiro on Youtube, because it had no counter argument so I wanted more facts. I have literally next to no idea what I'm talking about apart from what they said.

 

[Com Fox]

Back on the topic with trans in sports: http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/af...y/news-story/a21ec2bd491a38a5fd378e388e501c0f

Personally thought the AFL would've green-lit the situation, them saying no is surprising but AFLW is only starting to pick up steam and I guess they didn't want to risk burning it out too fast.

I pretty much have kept my stance on the whole is of trans in sports since the beginning of the year. Using IOC guidelines as a source for "fair competition" for trans simply doesn't work as it contributes it all to testosterone without hard to reduce areas like muscle and body mass. Hannah looks like she could toss around all the female players with ease. It creates an unfair situation where MtF get an unfair advantage and FtM get an unfair disadvantage.

However the solution is much more harder, back with the weightlifting problem, I suggested Trans get their own division but numbers being an issue, team games make this even worse. So I don't really know the right solution to this problem for Hannah.

 

[Mr Tree]

But when you get a Dysphoria that results in a fine and punishment if you mention it as a Psychological disorder(which it is) and others that don't it's getting pretty ridiculous.

I mean we don't exactly have any proven method to cure Dysphoria other then someone getting out of it themselves so do we just come to a point where we promote the ones we like and disprove the ones we don't(like who has the subjective measure for this?)

If someone wants their limbs cut off but in a way that doesn't fatally hurt them selves do we disprove(since it's only them being harmed) the same way someone with gender dysphoria does the same thing with their genitals and does irreversible surgery to them selves how is it really any different(apart from the public being able to see them lacking an arm or leg as opposed to a genital your not going to see unless you do the business)?

This is not nessecarelly my point of view...

But I think we as a society make the distinction where people become 'less valuable'. A person with a missing arm for no physical reason has effectively made him/herself less valuable and a 'burdon' on society. I think that's why we deem it illegal cut of your arm. The genderchange could actually make the person more productive as we don't value reproduction as we had to do when we still lived in the 'wild' and there is a chance that person now will be less vulnerable to depressions. (I have no evidence for this but it sounds like a plausible reason to handle this issue the way we do regardless if it beeing correct.

 

[TenEightyOne]

we deem it illegal cut of your arm.

Source required.

 

[Mr Tree]

Source required.

First of this was more a response to why one should be illegal and the other not. So a citation where this is the case is a bit redundant as it's dealing in hypoteticals someone else started...

But yeah if a belgian doctor cuts of a persons arm just because that person doezn't want an arm.that doctor would be charged with mutilation (if that's the correct english word).

Now to be honnest I do not know.what happens if a person does it to him/herself.

Still need a citation?

 

[TenEightyOne]

First of this was more a response to why one should be illegal and the other not. So a citation where this is the case is a bit redundant as it's dealing in hypoteticals someone else started...

But yeah if a belgian doctor cuts of a persons arm just because that person doezn't want an arm.that doctor would be charged with mutilation (if that's the correct english word).

Doctors are allowed to cut parts of people off (up to and including arms) if it's in the best physio- or psychological interest of the patient. It's illegal (and against their Hippocratic oath) for them to do intentional harm or to actively enable one to intentionally harm oneself. I'm pretty sure that it isn't illegal to cut off one's arm as you claimed.

 

[Mr Tree]

Doctors are allowed to cut parts of people off (up to and including arms) if it's in the best physio- or psychological interest of the patient. It's illegal (and against their Hippocratic oath) for them to do intentional harm or to actively enable one to intentionally harm oneself. I'm pretty sure that it isn't illegal to cut off one's arm as you claimed.

First of again we where discussing a hypotetical situation and why one could make it illegal so wheter it is or not was not something I had to prove...

Then again I'd have to look into that. I'm sure a doctor can amputate for physical reasons. It's for psychological reasons I'm unsure...
Some people would effectively become a disabled person (sorry I don't know the english PC-term, I do not want to offend anyone). How would it be covered? Would we pay a unemployment benifits? I think we should be more open towards psychological issues, but I can see many people arguing it was their own choice to lose the limb so they shouldn't get benefits (whoch would be dumb and an awefullway of thinking in my opinion but many do)

 

[TenEightyOne]

Then again I'd have to look into that. I'm sure a doctor can amputate for physical reasons. It's for psychological reasons I'm unsure...

It's called "cosmetic surgery", you've surely heard of it.

 

[Mr Tree]

It's called "cosmetic surgery", you've surely heard of it.

I'll look into it.
But I'm not sure if cosmetic surgery covers things as drastic as cutting of ones arm...

Your acting as if everyone should know that cutting of ones arm is cosmetic surgery. It's not something common, and my biggest question on it is do they get money from the government for beeing disabled?

Considering the politiczl ideology of the current legislators in belgium I wouldn't be suprised if they wouldn't want to pay that.

 

[Turbo]

I don't know where else to put this, but in California, misgendering a trans person can now get you a longer jail sentence then knowingly spreading spreading HIV to someone.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I don't know where else to put this, but in California, misgendering a trans person can now get you a longer jail sentence then knowingly spreading spreading HIV to someone.

Source?

 

[Turbo]

Source?

http://time.com/4973588/california-lowers-the-penalty-for-knowingly-exposing-someone-to-hiv/

As stated in that article, the maximum sentence for exposing someone to HIV intentionally is 6 months in CA.

https://www.redstate.com/brandon_mo...g-someone-improper-pronouns-jailable-offense/

This article proves that misgendering an LGBT person in CA can get you up to a year behind bars.

 

[Daniel]

This bill would enact the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Long-Term Care Facility Residents’ Bill of Rights. Among other things, the bill would make it unlawful, except as specified, for any long-term care facility to take specified actions wholly or partially on the basis of a person’s actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) status, including, among others, willfully and repeatedly failing to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns, or denying admission to a long-term care facility, transferring or refusing to transfer a resident within a facility or to another facility, or discharging or evicting a resident from a facility. The bill would also provide certain protections to all residents of long-term care facilities during, among other things, physical examinations or treatments, relating to bodily privacy.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB219

 

[TenEightyOne]

https://www.redstate.com/brandon_mo...g-someone-improper-pronouns-jailable-offense/

This article proves that misgendering an LGBT person in CA can get you up to a year behind bars.

What does legislation for health professionals have to do with it?

Your article names the act as the "LGBT Senior Bill of Rights" when in fact it's the "Long-term care facilities: rights of residents". Would I be right in thinking that those residents are paying for their service, just out of interest? Do you think free speech on behalf of an employer who disagrees with your speech should be without consequence?

Could you point me to the specific mention of gender in that act as I'm struggling to find it?

 

[UKMikey]

https://www.redstate.com/brandon_mo...g-someone-improper-pronouns-jailable-offense/

This article proves that misgendering an LGBT person in CA can get you up to a year behind bars.

Only if I work in a care home and repeatedly troll transgendered people.

Thankfully, this bill is limited to anyone in nursing homes or long-term care facilities…for now.

But mark his words, the sky is falling. I thought we covered this on the previous page. Aren't we going around in a circle?

 

[ryzno]

I think @Turbo 's point was the fact you can get jail time and the fact you can get more time than someone who gives someone with poor health coverage a death sentence...

 

[UKMikey]

I think @Turbo 's point was the fact you can get jail time and the fact you can get more time than someone who gives someone a death sentence with poor health coverage...

However he's making it sound like it applies to the man on the street rather than being specific workplace legislation which would probably be written into Cali care home workers' contracts. It doesn't sound to me like a first time offender would face jail time.

While I don't agree with the reduction in the maximum sentence for deliberate HIV exposure, the other article asserts that giving someone HIV is no longer a death sentence. http://time.com/4773541/hiv-aids-drugs-life-expectancy/

 

[Scaff]

https://www.redstate.com/brandon_mo...g-someone-improper-pronouns-jailable-offense/

This article proves that misgendering an LGBT person in CA can get you up to a year behind bars.

No it doesn't.

"
We found groups such as Breitbart and Fox News crammed misleading information into short news headlines, greatly distorting the facts about the use of pronouns or leaving out key information that would have given a different impression.

But we also found an element of truth: Violations of the bill could, under limited circumstances, be treated as a misdemeanor with punishment of up to one year in jail and/or a $1,000 fine.

Courtney Joslin, a UC Davis law professor, said the bar for criminal prosecution would be extremely high.

"The bill is very, very clear that what is prohibited is the willful engagement and repeated engagement in discriminatory conduct against LGBT seniors. So, if someone makes a mistake or doesn’t know what a person’s gender identity is and uses the incorrect pronoun that is not a violation of the statute," Joslin said.

Willful and repeated violations alone wouldn’t lead to criminal prosecution, Joslin added. They would likely be punished with a fine.

Criminal charges would only follow, she said, if the violation reached a level that was shown to cause the risk of death or serious physical harm, in accordance with state’s existing penalty structure for health and safety code violations at long-term care centers.

Wiener has said purposefully using the wrong pronoun would be treated the same way as someone who violates a center’s smoking ban. It would be considered a minor violation but "no one is going to jail for that."

Facilities that fail to comply would most likely get a notice of violation, akin to "a parking ticket," the senator said in an interview with PolitiFact California. He added that the provisions apply only to care facility staff, not to residents."
Source: http://www.politifact.com/californi...-mislead-about-california-bill-forcing-jail-/

Now I'm going to go with the professor of law over the blogger with a rather clear agenda.

 

[ryzno]

The other article asserts that giving someone HIV is no longer a death sentence.

It is if you can't afford it.
I had to reword my previous post.

 

[Turbo]

And this, my friends, is exactly why I never post in the Opinion sub-forum. Every time I say something here, my post always has some sort of flaw, causing it to be quoted by a million other members, and then I look like a fool and realize what I originally posted doesn't make sense.