Transgender Thread.

[PocketZeven]

A 3rd gender in my language is hard to imagine. We actually use the english word for transgender. I am all for people choosing their own identity, but they should have just invented another word then use "gender". It confuses people too much and it might also prevent all this controvorsy over gender "neutral" people. I am certain in a lot of languages sex and gender are synonyms. You can be who you want, but it is hella confusing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

 

[Danoff]

Gender is not the same as Sex, its for that very reason that Transgender people exist. The gender and the sex are not in tune. Sex says one, and a Trans persons' gender is another. Gender identity and Gender would be more synonymous than Gender and Sex IMO

All you mean by gender or gender identity is where someone fits within cultural stereotypes. In otherwords, do you act and think like people stereotypically think women act, or like people think men act? Even just the act of trying to apply those labels is counter productive.

There's physiological gender/sex, and then there's everything else - which people are twisting themselves into pretzels to try to sort out but really doesn't need any sorting.

 

[ryzno]

A 3rd gender in my language is hard to imagine.

So what do y'all call someone who was born with both sets of genitals?

 

[PocketZeven]

So what do y'all call someone who was born with both sets of genitals?

Hermaphrodite. Forgot about that one.

edit: corrected spelling

 

[Johnnypenso]

So what do y'all call someone who was born with both sets of genitals?

Ambidextrous?

 

[PocketZeven]

A 3rd gender in my language is hard to imagine. We actually use the english word for transgender. I am all for people choosing their own identity, but they should have just invented another word then use "gender". It confuses people too much and it might also prevent all this controvorsy over gender "neutral" people. I am certain in a lot of languages sex and gender are synonyms. You can be who you want, but it is hella confusing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_genderless_languages

I made on error on my part. There is a third gender and that is having both and like the other 2 genders/sexes has its own proper designation being Hermaphrodite. And like the 2 other genders/sexes is 100% biological.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And like the 2 other genders/sexes is 100% biological.

Nope, by definition (with the exception of the USA's dictionaries, as already noted), sex is biological while gender is socio-cultural. This exception for the USA may be because there is no gender in their speech or in the evolution of their dictionaries while British/International English remains closer to (and continues to interchange with) the nearby Germanic/Romance languages - there are normally two genders in Romance and three in Germanic, although it's worth noting that British and American English historically used gender endings for some nouns, a practice that's becoming less common.

 

[PocketZeven]

Nope, by definition (with the exception of the USA's dictionaries, as already noted), sex is biological while gender is socio-cultural. This exception for the USA may be because there is no gender in their speech or in the evolution of their dictionaries while British/International English remains closer to (and continues to interchange with) the nearby Germanic/Romance languages - there are normally two genders in Romance and three in Germanic, although it's worth noting that British and American English historically used gender endings for some nouns, a practice that's becoming less common.

You are talking about the english language. I only posted to explain that in my language, as far as i know, 3 names for "gender/sex" (remember I mean within the dutch vocabulary). At least the concensus is there are 3 sexes.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You are talking about the english language. I only posted to explain that in my language, as far as i know, 3 names for "gender/sex" (remember I mean within the dutch vocabulary). At least the concensus is there are 3 sexes.

Would I be right in thinking that geslacht is split into both a biological and a socio-cultural definition?

 

[Dennisch]

Would I be right in thinking that geslacht is split into both a biological and a socio-cultural definition?

Nope.

Geslacht is sekse (sex) making it the same as gender in our language. It also has several other meanings but nothing that points towards social construct.

I don’t think we have word for it. Nothing I can think of.

 

[zzz_pt]

In other news:

Student editor who retweeted article pointing out that that 'women don't have penises' is fired from university journal

 

[TenEightyOne]

Geslacht is sekse (sex) making it the same as gender in our language

That's what I was trying to be clear on - and I'm actually still unclear about whether the same word refers to sex and gender as defined in English?

 

[PocketZeven]

That's what I was trying to be clear on - and I'm actually still unclear about whether the same word refers to sex and gender as defined in English?

It is used for both like @Dennisch said, hence my confusion. I dont think there are a lot of languages that have a seperate word for both biological and social and cultural definition of being male, female, both or gender X.

But how do some people seem to identify as being without gender by choice (excluding people who have no sex organs from birth or accident)? I dont understand the line of thought. It just seems to me just being different for the sake of being different and not being rational and factual accurate.

edit @TenEightyOne did some more research and according to some sources and wikipedia the english word gender is used to define social and cultural aspect. The use is controversial and used in academical studies, but not in the normal vocabulary.

 

[Mr Tree]

Words have definitions, they are usually cut and dried. I see nothing wrong with coming up with new words, or modified versions of existing words, to describe new phenomenon.

Words have defenitions, those defenitions within a context are very cut and dry. Hop into an other context and the defenition might change.
Language is alive it's fluid and is very hard to tie down.
And while I would probably accept your vocabulary for the discussion and have you come up with a deriviation or a new word I also think it's not at all wrong to split up existing synonyms into 2 diffrent defenitions to be able to talk about diffrent aspects of the 'same' thing.

edit @TenEightyOne did some more research and according to some sources and wikipedia the english word gender is used to define social and cultural aspect. The use is controversial and used in academical studies, but not in the normal vocabulary.

The same is true for 'geslacht' en 'sex' in dutch.
Or at least where I live. This often leads to a lot of discussion about the words/defenitions used instead of the actual topic itself. Which seems to be the case over here too.


What if we all deceided on a vocabulary for this thread and stuck with it? At least we'd understand each other and could actually habe a discussion.

@Danoff I saw you make the remark about it being ridiculous to have to change saying you're a man or a woman. But I think that ignores how much gender is a part of our identity. Once you have 2 labels people want to be labelled as they identify there is nothing bigotted about that. Forcing people to be labelled as something they don't identify as is quite oppressive actually.
I know someone.can.mislabel someone I'm not talking about these instances. But it is int the case where you claim Caithlin Jenner would be better to describe herself as a man that looks/acts like a woman. Or do I misunderstand something?
Edit I do think I get where you come from. If we wouldn't define sexes as so rigid towards your current gender identity but as the gender at birth nothing more nothing less then these issues wouldn't exist. Sadly that not the utopia we live in.

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff I saw you make the remark about it being ridiculous to have to change saying you're a man or a woman. But I think that ignores how much gender is a part of our identity. Once you have 2 labels people want to be labelled as they identify there is nothing bigotted about that.

Yes there is. You're perpetuating gender stereotypes when you say "I identify as [insert stereotype]".

Edit: That is never more clear than when someone says "I identify as [insert race]".

Forcing people to be labelled as something they don't identify as is quite oppressive actually.

I've only ever heard one side of this debate argue for forcing people to label someone something against their will, and it's not the side that you might expect. If someone calls a person a woman who doesn't think he/she feels like a woman, that's not force. Force is when you say "excuse me, I don't feel like a stereotypical woman feels. Therefore you must call me a man". That's much closer to force. The similar version "...therefore I politely request, if it doesn't bother you, that you refer to me as a man", is not.

It gets even more bigoted when our hypothetical person gets upset about not being called a man, because they think they stereotypically feel like men feel. To insist on being called a man because you think you know how a woman is supposed to feel and how a man is supposed to feel and you feel like a man is bigoted. It is intolerant of the view that male and female personalities are not so clearly defined.

But it is int the case where you claim Caithlin Jenner would be better to describe herself as a man that looks/acts like a woman. Or do I misunderstand something?
Edit I do think I get where you come from. If we wouldn't define sexes as so rigid towards your current gender identity but as the gender at birth nothing more nothing less then these issues wouldn't exist. Sadly that not the utopia we live in.

You can't make the world a better place by perpetuating and forcing a fight which is unhealthy in the first place. I get that there is real discrimination here, but trying to make people call you one gender, because you think you know what that gender is supposed to be, only deepens the problem.1

Just be who you are, let the rest of the world worry about their silly categories. Trying to identify dozens of possible genders for all the different people out there is an exercise in label/category futility. There's no such thing as bins for people's personalities.

 

[Whitestar]

In Norway we have only 1 word for sex/gender (AFAIK). Which means we don't differentiate between the two.

(Also, I dont think anyone cares).

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes there is. You're perpetuating gender stereotypes when you say "I identify as [insert stereotype]".

Edit: That is never more clear than when someone says "I identify as [insert race]".



I've only ever heard one side of this debate argue for forcing people to label someone something against their will, and it's not the side that you might expect. If someone calls a person a woman who doesn't think he/she feels like a woman, that's not force. Force is when you say "excuse me, I don't feel like a stereotypical woman feels. Therefore you must call me a man". That's much closer to force. The similar version "...therefore I politely request, if it doesn't bother you, that you refer to me as a man", is not.

It gets even more bigoted when our hypothetical person gets upset about not being called a man, because they think they stereotypically feel like men feel. To insist on being called a man because you think you know how a woman is supposed to feel and how a man is supposed to feel and you feel like a man is bigoted. It is intolerant of the view that male and female personalities are not so clearly defined.



You can't make the world a better place by perpetuating and forcing a fight which is unhealthy in the first place. I get that there is real discrimination here, but trying to make people call you one gender, because you think you know what that gender is supposed to be, only deepens the problem.1

Just be who you are, let the rest of the world worry about their silly categories. Trying to identify dozens of possible genders for all the different people out there is an exercise in label/category futility. There's no such thing as bins for people's personalities.

I dont see the problem to call Caitlin Jenner a she. I personally dont understand why a hypothtical person gets upset when called another gender when the person is not aware and only says what he sees. And even if it is out of malicious intent, there are worse things to call a person then the opposite gender.

 

[Famine]

Language is alive it's fluid

If language is fluid and the meaning of the word "gender" has changed, does that mean it's actually genderfluid?

 

[TenEightyOne]

If language is fluid and the meaning of the word "gender" has changed, does that mean it's actually genderfluid?

Genderfluent.

 

[Mr Tree]

If language is fluid and the meaning of the word "gender" has changed, does that mean it's actually genderfluid?

Not sure if you disagree or not, but love the pun!

 

[Famine]

Not sure if you disagree or not, but love the pun!

Apparently not everyone agrees, as a former participant in this thread - one who saw any questioning viewpoint as transphobic hate and quit rather than discuss these views - has accused me on Twitter of "vile" behaviour and "derision" at the expense of transgender people for that joke...

Oh well.

 

[PocketZeven]

Apparently not everyone agrees, as a former participant in this thread - one who saw any questioning viewpoint as transphobic hate and quit rather than discuss these views - has accused me on Twitter of "vile" behaviour and "derision" at the expense of transgender people for that joke...

Oh well.

View attachment 768476

I think posts online lack any nuance. Youtube is the worst, but fora's can be too. Sometimes a post with legitimate arguments can be received as "agressive" behaviour. I have been on the receiving end of them. Especially when you have an unpopular opinion in a thread with participants who have like minded views. Sometimes you have the feeling you are being bullied by group of people. Even though it isnt the intention of said group of people. But then you take a step back and try to react respectfully and eventually they will respect you for having an own opinion. Some people are a bit thinskinned though.

 

[Famine]

I think posts online lack any nuance. Youtube is the worst, but fora's can be too. Sometimes a post with legitimate arguments can be received as "agressive" behaviour. I have been on the receiving end of them. Especially when you have an unpopular opinion in a thread with participants who have like minded views. Sometimes you have the feeling you are being bullied by group of people. Even though it isnt the intention of said group of people. But then you take a step back and try to react respectfully and eventually they will respect you for having an own opinion. Some people are a bit thinskinned though.

This particular individual participated in this thread right from the very start and was very vocal in referring to anything outside their own set of beliefs about their condition as transphobic. When asked easy questions, they were transphobic. When asked hard questions, they were transphobic. Any light-heartedness was transphobic. GTPlanet's members were transphobic, GTPlanet's staff were transphobic, GTPlanet was transphobic.

No discussion was even possible. It was a simple case of agreeing with them 100% or being transphobic. The very fact that there was a discussion was transphobic...

Personally I thought @Danoff's question - how can one, whether trans or not, claim to feel like a specific gender without applying gender stereotypes to what the two ends of the gender spectrum should feel like - was an interesting one and worth discussion. He even pointed out that it's not possible for someone whose sex and gender is male (like him) to feel male without resorting to stereotypes about maleness. Apparently the question, any attempt to answer and @Danoff himself were all transphobic.

I was transphobic for not understanding why there was so much fuss about gender-neutral bathrooms, and for asking how trans people would ever be discovered as people don't habitually run around the toilets naked. I was also transphobic for not having ever noticed anyone transgender in the men's bathroom (I'd have thought it would be transphobic to notice, but apparently not), and then for asking exactly what the correct procedure for dealing with a trans individual in the men's toilets was if I was doing it wrong by not caring.

And now I'm vile and deriding all transgender individuals for a joke about the fluidity of the meaning of the word "gender", at no-one's expense.


This is someone who is actively looking for a way to be offended and a way to be a victim, so that they can claim to be discriminated against.

 

[PocketZeven]

This particular individual participated in this thread right from the very start and was very vocal in referring to anything outside their own set of beliefs about their condition as transphobic. When asked easy questions, they were transphobic. When asked hard questions, they were transphobic. Any light-heartedness was transphobic. GTPlanet's members were transphobic, GTPlanet's staff were transphobic, GTPlanet was transphobic.

No discussion was even possible. It was a simple case of agreeing with them 100% or being transphobic. The very fact that there was a discussion was transphobic...

Personally I thought @Danoff's question - how can one, whether trans or not, claim to feel like a specific gender without applying gender stereotypes to what the two ends of the gender spectrum should feel like - was an interesting one and worth discussion. He even pointed out that it's not possible for someone whose sex and gender is male (like him) to feel male without resorting to stereotypes about maleness. Apparently the question, any attempt to answer and @Danoff himself were all transphobic.

I was transphobic for not understanding why there was so much fuss about gender-neutral bathrooms, and for asking how trans people would ever be discovered as people don't habitually run around the toilets naked. I was also transphobic for not having ever noticed anyone transgender in the men's bathroom (I'd have thought it would be transphobic to notice, but apparently not), and then for asking exactly what the correct procedure for dealing with a trans individual in the men's toilets was if I was doing it wrong by not caring.

And now I'm vile and deriding all transgender individuals for a joke about the fluidity of the meaning of the word "gender", at no-one's expense.


This is someone who is actively looking for a way to be offended and a way to be a victim, so that they can claim to be discriminated against.

Do take in account that this person might be bullied his whole life or could have traumatic experiences, but could also just be a simple troll. Empathy is key here. The fact is some can but wont, but some just cant show any empathy. In my discussions about racism I always take in account that most people dont even know how widespread it is because they dont hear anyone near them complain or experience it first or secondhand. I also try to understand when a racist joke is made because the person is genuinly trying to be funny or is malicious. I dont know the details of your discussions with said person, but I think this person is just uncapable of empathy.

 

[Famine]

his

That'd be transphobic.

I dont know the details of your discussions with said person

Go to page 1 of this thread. They were active right from the start, and the whole schtick right from the get-go is someone who thinks everyone is against them and hates them for being transgender, so they treat everyone as if they are against them.

And that's a self-fulfilling prophecy; when you pre-emptively treat everyone badly because you think they hate you, they'll hate you. If you see hatred everywhere, even where there is none, eventually you're going to create it. But it's not for being transgender - it's because you're an awful person regardless of gender.

 

[TexRex]

genderfluid

 

[PocketZeven]

That'd be transphobic.

Go to page 1 of this thread. They were active right from the start, and the whole schtick right from the get-go is someone who thinks everyone is against them and hates them for being transgender, so they treat everyone as if they are against them.

And that's a self-fulfilling prophecy; when you pre-emptively treat everyone badly because you think they hate you, they'll hate you. If you see hatred everywhere, even where there is none, eventually you're going to create it. But it's not for being transgender - it's because you're an awful person regardless of gender.

I guess that person felt everyone was ganging up against him/her. Most transgenders/ transexuals I encountered are fully aware that most people are ignorant about the subject and not malicious in intent but just generally confused. I do encounter gay men who somehow think they are better then everyone else. I have never encountered a lesbian that acted like that. That could be just personal isolated experience though. I work in the service industry so encounter every size/shape/ethnicity/gender daily.

 

[Famine]

I guess that person felt everyone was ganging up against him/her.

Yes, but before anyone else said anything to them...

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes, but before anyone else said anything to them...

You are talking about the unicorn right? I guess that person comes from a bad place. People who are cornered lash out more quickly and aggressively. Without going to too much depth, I guess this person is likely lonely and isolated and blames bigotry for his/her problems.

 

[TexRex]

Yes, but before anyone else said anything to them...

That's the nice thing about being a middle-aged, heterosexual white guy and therefore not subject to any stereotypes. I can go about my day observing countless conversations about all manner of subjects and not feel as though others are talking about me...except for that one time I walked by a group of women talking about erectile dysfunction and I just snapped.



It's absurd on the face of it, but I imagine being talked about constantly may lead one to think they're being talked about when they're not the target of talk that's taking place in their presence. And if the the talk about one has a tendency to be negative, the effect is probably amplified and one may take offense.

It'd be better for all involved if one who perceives themself a target takes a moment to consider the likelihood they're not the butt of the joke, but I get it.