Transgender Thread.

[Moglet]

I'll rephrase to "most people don't care".
And below is a good example why.

There aren't too many subjects or posts I've ever had quoted 7 times.
The fact that some people are so concerned with this, the amount that some people are angered, offended, or "insulted" by such a trivial issue, is simply amazing.

They're often concerned because they have friends or family who this affects, if not themselves. They would rather not see them feeling ****** because of the actions of a few individuals.

The fact that people swarm around like bees, looking to "enlighten" or force their way of thinking down people's throats... You're just pissing people off.
It's fascism at best.

Expressing an opinion on an open forum is not the same as forcing a way of thinking down someone's throat. We disagree and we are putting forwards our opinions. It's far from fascism.

You guys think people that worry they'll lose their job and livelihood if they say the wrong thing are just going to sing a musical and have a montage and change of mind?
Does fear lead to empathy now?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here; who is supposed to be fearful, and what are they fearful of?

I would dare say nearly every person I know does not care. Most or all of them have no problem with people being transgender.

This is great, but sadly a lot of cisgender people do still care about other peoples' gender identities and they make life a living hell for those who are trans.

Transgender people themselves care a lot about their identity though, as being mis-gendered can be a really horrible experience for someone who is struggling with their identity.

The real topic of discussion here, is should we try to change everything to satisfy 1% of people, or should that 1% be able to understand that they are different, even if it is a scale as Famine pointed out, the vast majority still fit well within reasonable bounds.

Who is trying to "change everything"? I might have to call someone by a certain pronoun every now and then but that's about the only change I've ever had to make. Transgender folk might ask for respect when choosing which public bathroom to use but that's because they still need to pee regardless of who they are.

See below.
So one person called me an ass, and 2 others reported me.

Which is ridiculous. You shouldn't be getting posts reported because people disagree with you.

In general, the people that I've seen over the internet who disagree with my views are extremely aggressive about it, and also extremely angry.
So I guess that's what I'm accustomed to.

Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of people who get angry if you disagree with their views, as you pointed out in your previous post ("You're just pissing people off"). This isn't productive to a discussion about something. I've noticed this myself. Being online seems to amplify this too.

 

[Mr Tree]

There aren't too many subjects or posts I've ever had quoted 7 times.
The fact that some people are so concerned with this, the amount that some people are angered, offended, or "insulted" by such a trivial issue, is simply amazing.

I'm sorry to remember you you're on a discussion forum. You post your opinion as we do with ours, and then others get to say wjy they agree or disagree. Isn't that the intent behind a discussionforum?

people swarm around like bees, looking to "enlighten" or force their way of thinking down people's throats... You're just pissing people off.
It's fascism at best.

Again we're on a discusion forum, this is the objective of this place to discus our opinions.
We don't shove our idea's down your throat we explain why we agree/disagree. That's how free speach works. If this pisses you of I think I found the fascist amoungst us. From my end it seems to be you who is not ok with other opinions and not me/us. You are the one acting like a snowflake because 7 people didn't agree with your post.

You guys think people that worry they'll lose their job and livelihood if they say the wrong thing are just going to sing a musical and have a montage and change of mind?
Does fear lead to empathy now?

How are you going to lose your job due to your opinion? I don't know any precedent of doxing on this site, on top of that your opinions aren't so far out. I disagree with them but if you follow them how you say you do your actions don't call for you to be fired.

dare say nearly every person I know does not care. Most or all of them have no problem with people being transgender.
They do have a problem with fear of persecution over some childish "adults" hypersensitivity.

I see how you have a problem with that fear. I would too, i just don't agree your fear is rational. I don't know of someone with your views being fired.

And that's what it is, childish.
If you look like a "girl" you have zero reason to be offended, upset, or angry when someone refers to you as one.

Every guy I know has been called some form of feminine as an insult, whether as a joke, in all seriousness, or both.
But the only people that freak out about it are transgender.
Hell most of us get called worse.

Ever heard of subjectivity, the pain an experience brings you is determined by your own psyche and experiences. So imo I can understand their frustration.
However I do have an issue when the intent was not to harm people, yet the offended wants the offenders head by trying to make him/her lose his/her job.

I'm not going to bicker with 7 people at once just because they have a different opinion.
I stand by what I said, I believe what I said.

You don't have to continue discussing the subject, but you chose to when you posted an other post.
I do disagree you stand by what you said. You still believe what you said but if you'd actually stand by it you'd try to defend your position or explain why you disagree with my/our critique.

I understand science is changing, and getting more realistic.
I also understand the same people that tell me all about gender, and gender and sex aren't the same, also typically claim that society's gender constructs are false.
So how can you identify as a woman if there is no definition of a woman?

Male and female are social constructs, the fact that we are having this discussions shows we're not certain how ok these constructs are. Or at least I ask how good these constructs function. I'm a white male, however I have some rather noticable typical female features in me as a person. I struggled with that in a very binary gender oriented world.

But even though I think the binary perspective is flawed doesn't mean we don't have a definition of the stereotypical male/female.
Also that defenition can change as it's a social construct.

Money is a social construct yet we all agree it's real in our society.

She and her are pronouns to call a woman, aka a female.
They aren't just some made up names to call people on a whim, but it seems we're changing the language to fit the narrative of hypersensitive people.
Nobody ever explained to them that changing the name of something doesn't change what it actually is.

No but she and her means something and if you use she for a FtM transgender because you just don't want to acknowledge their transition imo you are the one misusing words. You can call a man (which a FtM trans is for social purposes) she but he'll still be a man as he looks like one.

I might misunderstand this part of ypyr post so please correct me if that happened.

But keep shoving your opinions down everyone's throats, don't let me stop you.
I'm sure it will change everyone's mind.

Honnest question what do we do diffrent from you that you get to say you just share your opinion and makes us shove it down peoples throat.

I'm also uncertain that you will change your mind. But people on this forum have when given valid reasons to do so. Including me!


As a final thoughts, if I come over as somewhat agressive I'm sorry. I just don't like being called a fascist when I just wanted to have a discussion.

A lot of issues you see with this subject seem irrational to me. They're hyperboles from the real situation. It's like you watch anti sjw movies on youtube and then think everyone who disagrees with you should be lumped in with those crazies.

 

[PocketZeven]

See below.
So one person called me an ass, and 2 others reported me.


Fair enough, but how many opposing points of view received so much attention?

Obviously there are people around with such intent.

In general, the people that I've seen over the internet who disagree with my views are extremely aggressive about it, and also extremely angry.
So I guess that's what I'm accustomed to.

Some pointed out perhaps some inaccuracies or asked for clarification about your arguments. Nothing really said or done that was out of line.

A lot of issues you see with this subject seem irrational to me. They're hyperboles from the real situation. It's like you watch anti sjw movies on youtube and then think everyone who disagrees with you should be lumped in with those crazies.

SJW is something what I worrying about lately. It is closely related to Trial by media (aka videos captioned with biased narratives). And is extremely hypocrit. A good example is Anita Sarkeesian. She built the narrative that gaming is sexist and objectify women. While there is some truth in that, the way she was doing it, by accusing every male disagreeing with her, to be a misagonyst. That is sexist by definition.

 

[Famine]

However when someone thinks that they have a right to determine what I refer to them as... I have a problem with that.

Let's just strip that of any gender context and present it on its own.

If someone introduces themselves to you by their name, do you think "you don't have a right to determine what I refer to you as" and call them by a different name of your own choosing? Do you say "Sorry love, you might think you're called Kerry, but you look like an Alice to me"? I'd guess you probably don't do that, and you do, in fact, refer to them by their name (if, as is my problem, you can actually remember it).

So let's re-gender it. Why is it any different if someone you think looks male introduces themselves to you by their obviously female name? Do you say "Nah, you look like a dude, so I'm going to call you Jeff"?

if you have a right to say you are 67% male and 15% female simultaneously

That's an interesting notion. Aside from arguments about what maleness and femaleness actually mean in terms of gender identity, that doesn't seem far off what "normal" male is. Or are we from the school of thought that the only man manly enough to be a man is 100% man, all the time?

In other words if it’s ok that you identify as a percentage or multi gender based on whatever reason, then why is it not ok for me to use whatever pronoun seems appropriate to me depending on my faith?

The pronoun thing is interesting, but a red herring. The relevance of neologism pronouns for the most special of special Tumblr users to the transgender population is... pretty much non-existent, despite how often they're conflated. The point of transitioning genders is to become the new gender, not cling on to the fact that you aren't that gender with hooky pronouns.

Chances are that most of the people you've referred to in your life as he/him were born male, and most of the people you've referred to in your life as she/her were born female, but a small handful of them were not... and it's just as likely that you don't know who they were.

Which brings us back to the initial question. If your faith is telling you that the woman who just introduced herself to you as Kerry is a dude, do you refuse to call her that and instead call him Jeff?

 

[Danoff]

So how can you identify as a woman if there is no definition of a woman?

She and her are pronouns to call a woman, aka a female.

They aren't just some made up names to call people on a whim, but it seems we're changing the language to fit the narrative of hypersensitive people.
Nobody ever explained to them that changing the name of something doesn't change what it actually is.

You kinda pull the rug out from under yourself here. This is a contradiction. Is there no definition? Or is there some underlying basic thing that you're holding on to that is unchanging? It's not that there is obviously a thing that exists which is "woman" or "man" and the words are arbitrary. It's that there is no such thing that exists which is "woman" or "man" (as we think of them socially). It's a generalization across a spectrum of humanity that looks for clumps of traits among the population and casts a net around those clumps. But there are a ton of data points in between the clumps, and all around them. The idea that there is such a thing as a "woman" or a "man" (as we think of them socially) is what is nonsense. The are so many confusing counter examples that it's clear that the bins are nonsense. Here, I'll draw a picture from @Famine's graph.

See how those two circles are fairly arbitrary? The upper left circle represents what society thinks of as a "woman", and the lower right represents what society thinks of as a "man". There are people all over the place, we're just lazy so we throw a grouping around a population cluster and call it good, but the reality is that the two red circles are really poorly defined and kinda useless to a lot of people in between. If someone in the middle is getting called a female, and wants to be called a male... who cares? Seriously you should not care. The term does not change who they are, and the terms themselves are not well defined.

Yeah, it's almost as if men and woman are different.

I hope that you see above that really it's just that people are different, and the definition of men and women is an arbitrary social convention not to get hung up on.

I dunno, ultimately I personally don’t care much about what a person identifies as. That’s psychological and subject to change.
However when someone thinks that they have a right to determine what I refer to them as...I have a problem with that. Ie if you have a right to say you are 67% male and 15% female simultaneously, don’t get angry at me if I have a right to say that it’s the plumbing that matters not the psychology and I will not compromise my integrity based on your psychology.
In other words if it’s ok that you identify as a percentage or multi gender based on whatever reason, then why is it not ok for me to use whatever pronoun seems appropriate to me depending on my faith?

Because you cannot identify clearly what is a man and what is a woman. It's not based on your faith, it's based on your gut, and your gut is not good at it. So you should not cling to the definition.

So ultimately I just don’t care, I only care when someone tries to control my actions.

So when someone tells you "my name is Danoff", an arbitrary label that they have chosen for themselves, you say "don't try to control my actions! I'll call you what I want!".

Edit:

Gah! Tree'd by @Famine

 

[Mr Tree]

Ie if you have a right to say you are 67% male and 15% female simultaneously, don’t get angry at me if I have a right to say that it’s the plumbing that matters not the psychology and I will not compromise my integrity based on your psychology.

You have the right to do that but I don't understand your argument.
How is it hurting your integrity to call someone by the pronouns they prefer?

I'm not in favour of legal actions against your opinion and the actions that follow out of it but since I can't see how your integrity is harmed by adhering to their prefered pronoun I do think of you as a bully. As you probably see mee as a libtard since I ask people to be nice to each other.

 

[Moglet]

Trans folks are not the only ones who have suffered insults. Where I am from, learning to deal with being insulted is part of growing up. I suffered a ton of ridicule based on my appearance and still do to this day. I learned to deal with it and get on with it.

It's not just that though, is it? Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives which is nearly double that reported by cisgender females or triple that reported by cisgender males. People in the LGBT community are also more likely to become homeless and are more likely to face targeted violence once they become homeless.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's not just that though, is it? Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives which is nearly double that reported by cisgender females or triple that reported by cisgender males. People in the LGBT community are also more likely to become homeless and are more likely to face targeted violence once they become homeless.

I think he isnt seeing it through the accurate persprective. Which person is more likely to be beaten up, fired or shunned by family and friends:

- skinny person
- fat person
- Transgender
- homosexual
- black person

Allthough being bullied and insulted is horrible, but there are definately different degrees in bullying and insulting.

 

[Mr Tree]

I think he isnt seeing it through the accurate persprective. Which person is more likely to be beaten up, fired or shunned by family and friends:

- skinny person
- fat person
- Transgender
- homosexual
- black person

Allthough being bullied and insulted is horrible, but there are definately different degrees in bullying and insulting.

And thats ignoring the I'm scared to be fired because of my views on transpeople. You know the lgbt community whose not even protected against being fired for their sexuality/gender in large parts of the world including some states in the US.

 

[Groundfish]

that of any gender context and present it on its own.

If someone introduces themselves to you by their name, do you think "you don't have a right to determine what I refer to you as" and call them by a different name of your own choosing? Do you say "Sorry love, you might think you're called Kerry, but you look like an Alice to me"? I'd guess you probably don't do that, and you do, in fact, refer to them by their name (if, as is my problem, you can actually remember it).

So let's re-gender it. Why is it any different if someone you think looks male introduces themselves to you by their obviously female name? Do you say "Nah, you look like a dude, so I'm going to call you Jeff"?

Of course not. If someone says hi my name is Nazilover, I will say hi Nazilover nice to meet you same as anyone else.
Also as far as I know, where I am from, the pronoun deal is leading people to lose their jobs and causing lawsuits. So it seems a real problem here.

That's an interesting notion. Aside from arguments about what maleness and femaleness actually mean in terms of gender identity, that doesn't seem far off what "normal" male is. Or are we from the school of thought that the only man manly enough to be a man is 100% man, all the time?

No way, I am maybe 70-30 male female, but my female side prefers women only as far as sexual preference.

The pronoun thing is interesting, but a red herring. The relevance of neologism pronouns for the most special of special Tumblr users to the transgender population is... pretty much non-existent, despite how often they're conflated. The point of transitioning genders is to become the new gender, not cling on to the fact that you aren't that gender with hooky pronouns.

Chances are that most of the people you've referred to in your life as he/him were born male, and most of the people you've referred to in your life as she/her were born female, but a small handful of them were not... and it's just as likely that you don't know who they were.

Which brings us back to the initial question. If your faith is telling you that the woman who just introduced herself to you as Kerry is a dude, do you refuse to call her that and instead call him Jeff?

No.

Because you cannot identify clearly what is a man and what is a woman. It's not based on your faith, it's based on your gut, and your gut is not good at it. So you should not cling to the definition.

Man and woman is sex and is based on plumbing is my belief.

So when someone tells you "my name is Danoff", an arbitrary label that they have chosen for themselves, you say "don't try to control my actions! I'll call you what I want!"

No.

ent.
How is it hurting your integrity to call someone by the pronouns they prefer?

It only would if, like my co workers as he calls it ‘bonus son’ who has female plumbing by birth tells me I must change the pronouns I use. It’s because I already know what the plumbing is.
For any person on the street doesn’t matter to me because I don’t know or care what the plumbing is.
Now, if person x for some reason informs me about their plumbing, then I will use the pronouns I do in conversation.

It's not just that though, is it? Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives which is nearly double that reported by cisgender females or triple that reported by cisgender males. People in the LGBT community are also more likely to become homeless and are more likely to face targeted violence once they become homeless

Yes it’s horrid. I abhor violence even though many people suffer it at the evil hands of others. There’s many groups of people suffering and I wish it wasn’t so.

 

[Mr Tree]

Also as far as I know, where I am from, the pronoun deal is leading people to lose their jobs and causing lawsuits. So it seems a real problem here.

Ypu have any refrences? Not saying you're lying this just seems so 1 in a million that without context and/or refrebces I can't believe the statement at face value.

It only would if, like my co workers as he calls it ‘bonus son’ who has female plumbing by birth tells me I must change the pronouns I use. It’s because I already know what the plumbing is.
For any person on the street doesn’t matter to me because I don’t know or care what the plumbing is.
Now, if person x for some reason informs me about their plumbing, then I will use the pronouns I do in conversation.

You misunderstand my question. When you know someones assigned gender at birth and they have transitioned how does it harm your integrity to use the pronouns that actually fit that person in that time?

 

[Danoff]

Man and woman is sex and is based on plumbing is my belief.

So what about people who have both sets of plumbing? What about people who change their plumbing? What about plumbing that doesn't work? What about plumbing that gets injured or amputated?

 

[PocketZeven]

Of course not. If someone says hi my name is Nazilover, I will say hi Nazilover nice to meet you same as anyone else.
Also as far as I know, where I am from, the pronoun deal is leading people to lose their jobs and causing lawsuits. So it seems a real problem here.




No way, I am maybe 70-30 male female, but my female side prefers women only as far as sexual preference.



No.



Man and woman is sex and is based on plumbing is my belief.



No.



It only would if, like my co workers as he calls it ‘bonus son’ who has female plumbing by birth tells me I must change the pronouns I use. It’s because I already know what the plumbing is.
For any person on the street doesn’t matter to me because I don’t know or care what the plumbing is.
Now, if person x for some reason informs me about their plumbing, then I will use the pronouns I do in conversation.



Yes it’s horrid. I abhor violence even though many people suffer it at the evil hands of others. There’s many groups of people suffering and I wish it wasn’t so.

You are quite fixated on plumbing are you, are you a plumber?

Kidding aside. In chinese we only differentiate male/female in written chinese. That would have made life a lot easier for transgenders. But I also would not understand someone becoming mad over being called the wrong pronoun if there was no harmfull intent. However if there was harmfull intent, I consider it equal to using cursewords and other foul language. But that would be hard to prove on the workfloor though.

 

[Moglet]

Man and woman is sex and is based on plumbing is my belief.

It only would if, like my co workers as he calls it ‘bonus son’ who has female plumbing by birth tells me I must change the pronouns I use. It’s because I already know what the plumbing is.
For any person on the street doesn’t matter to me because I don’t know or care what the plumbing is.
Now, if person x for some reason informs me about their plumbing, then I will use the pronouns I do in conversation

Next time I have an issue with my taps and I answer the door to "I'm here to fix your plumbing" it will take on a whole new meaning

 

[Groundfish]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna946006


https://torontolife.com/city/u-t-professor-sparked-vicious-battle-gender-neutral-pronouns/

So what about people who have both sets of plumbing? What about people who change their plumbing? What about plumbing that doesn't work? What about plumbing that gets injured or amputated?

Where I am from the govt assigns sex at birth. Recently the legal definition of sex equaling gender was changed and there is now debate to change it back.

As far as change...I will say I am reminded of a Jamiroquai lyric...
Something to the effect of “now every mother can choose the color of her child...that’s not nature’s way.”

Again, I would say I don’t care what someone calls themselves.
That doesn’t mean I should change my actions because of their belief.
I mean as a sportsman here I pretty much have to hide it in daily life unless I wish to be verbally accosted.
I have a huge problem with the trend here becoming that if something a person says offends someone then that is wrong and further should even be legislated.
In other words hate to say but your identity crisis is no fault of mine you know?
I went through a lot regarding identity although not related to gender and I never tried to force others to bend to my will.

 

[PocketZeven]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna946006


https://torontolife.com/city/u-t-professor-sparked-vicious-battle-gender-neutral-pronouns/



Where I am from the govt assigns sex at birth. Recently the legal definition of sex equaling gender was changed and there is now debate to change it back.

As far as change...I will say I am reminded of a Jamiroquai lyric...
Something to the effect of “now every mother can choose the color of her child...that’s not nature’s way.”

Again, I would say I don’t care what someone calls themselves.
That doesn’t mean I should change my actions because of their belief.
I mean as a sportsman here I pretty much have to hide it in daily life unless I wish to be verbally accosted.
I have a huge problem with the trend here becoming that if something a person says offends someone then that is wrong and further should even be legislated.
In other words hate to say but your identity crisis is no fault of mine you know?
I went through a lot regarding identity although not related to gender and I never tried to force others to bend to my will.

There is a fine line between social justice warriors and actual change. One could have viewed Martin Luther King as SJW at the time, but his movement did help the country change. To be honest people should also not make a fuss out of calling someone a specific male/female pronoun. What does it matter? If it makes that person comfortable, that will only benefit yourself.

I do want to point out that heresay stories about these kind of situations always follow a certain subjective narrative. Perhaps a person was purposely calling a transgender him/her just to bully him/her and claim innocense. (because improper use of noun probably not considered improper conduct) I hardly think if it was by accident or with no malicious intent someone would be offended that quickly.

 

[Groundfish]

There is a fine line between social justice warriors and actual change. One could have viewed Martin Luther King as SJW at the time, but his movement did help the country change. To be honest people should also not make a fuss out of calling someone a specific male/female pronoun. What does it matter? If it makes that person comfortable, that will only benefit yourself.

I do want to point out that heresay stories about these kind of situations always follow a certain subjective narrative. Perhaps a person was purposely calling a transgender him/her just to bully him/her and claim innocense. (because improper use of noun probably not considered improper conduct) I hardly think if it was by accident or with no malicious intent someone would be offended that quickly.

I’ve been bullied a lot. At some point you grow up and get over it.
I think it’s very hard to make an argument that a comment that offends someone is wrong on a moral basis.
Bullying and all that is part of life. We all grow up and find our way of coping with life.
We can’t expect the world to conform to our subjective viewpoint or belief.
For example to me this is illogical...
Frequently media identifies criminals by color white black whatever and I believe that’s racist.
Where I am from I get offended by that.
Why should it matter beyond referring to a person as a criminal?

 

[Danoff]

Where I am from the govt assigns sex at birth.

Ok, so your personal belief is that whatever your government would assign is the correct answer and will always be your reference point?

How does your government assign gender when both sets of "plumbing" are present. How about when one is malformed?

Again, I would say I don’t care what someone calls themselves.
That doesn’t mean I should change my actions because of their belief.

How about if you choose to act based on what they call themselves then... since you don't care?

So are you claiming that you'd refuse to call these people women, even if they had female plumbing (which you said you cared about), because they were born with male genitalia?

 

[PocketZeven]

Ok, so your personal belief is that whatever your government would assign is the correct answer and will always be your reference point?

How does your government assign gender when both sets of "plumbing" are present. How about when one is malformed?




How about if you choose to act based on what they call themselves then... since you don't care?

So are you claiming that you'd refuse to call these people women, even if they had female plumbing (which you said you cared about), because they were born with male genitalia?

Damn she is beautifull! I dont even care what her plumbing is!

 

[Groundfish]

Ok, so your personal belief is that whatever your government would assign is the correct answer and will always be your reference point?

How does your government assign gender when both sets of "plumbing" are present. How about when one is malformed?




How about if you choose to act based on what they call themselves then... since you don't care?

So are you claiming that you'd refuse to call these people women, even if they had female plumbing (which you said you cared about), because they were born with male genitalia?

Because their belief is no more right or wrong than my own.
Choosing to act according to someone else’s belief would compromise my integrity.
They have their faith I have mine.
If I am offended by them do I ask or expect them to change their actions of course not.
I don’t expect them to compromise their integrity as humans.

 

[Danoff]

Because their belief is no more right or wrong than my own.
Choosing to act according to someone else’s belief would compromise my integrity.

I thought you said you didn't care. But clearly you do. You think you know what the right thing to call these people is, and you think it would compromise your integrity to change that. Why do you think you know what gender to assign everyone? What gender do you assign the people in the photo I posted for you. Assume their genitalia is male first, give them a gender. Then assume they changed their genitalia to female, and give them a gender. Then tell me why you think that's the right gender.

They have their faith I have mine.

And your faith tells you to use your government's definition?

 

[Scaff]

As far as change...I will say I am reminded of a Jamiroquai lyric...
Something to the effect of “now every mother can choose the color of her child...that’s not nature’s way.”

Wearing glasses, contract lenses, clothes, agriculture, beer, houses, cars, whatever device you are posting on, etc. Are not nature's way.

I hope you take the exact same as attitude with those.

It's also interesting to add that most indigenous cultures have almost always happily acknowledged more than two genders, and in some cases giving them revered status.

The concept you're describing as nature's way is actually a recent Western social construct.

Edited to add: seriously you have less issue calling someone Nazi-lover, than using a preferred pronoun! Did you even pause for a second when typing that out?

 

[Groundfish]

I thought you said you didn't care. But clearly you do. You think you know what the right thing to call these people is, and you think it would compromise your integrity to change that. Why do you think you know what gender to assign everyone? What gender do you assign the people in the photo I posted for you. Assume their genitalia is male first, give them a gender. Then assume they changed their genitalia to female, and give them a gender. Then tell me why you think that's the right gender.



And your faith tells you to use your government's definition?

I only care and have an issue when someone else wants to tell me my belief is wrong and I must change my actions to conform to their belief.
My faith is personal and I have not told you what it is just as I have not asked you to tell me yours.
As far as myself I definitely do not always agree with my govt.
I definitely do not want to end up in a position where expressing that openly could result in negative consequences for me. I believe in freedom and tolerance and I support everyone’s right to think and act how they choose. It’s when they want to dictate how I act that I have a problem as I have said since the first post.


@Scaff
I think moral relativism is a slippery slope.
There are cultures that killed and ate people.
Well for a moral relativist it would seem to me there’s nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mr Tree]

my belief is wrong and I must change my actions to conform to their belief.
My faith is personal and I have not told you what it is just as I have not asked you to tell me yours.

Do you mean you believe you should act in this manner due to your religios faith?
I would still disagree with you, but I would be able to better understand why you think what you think.
You don't have to declare your religion if you don't want to.

 

[Scaff]

I only care and have an issue when someone else wants to tell me my belief is wrong and I must change my actions to conform to their belief.
My faith is personal and I have not told you what it is just as I have not asked you to tell me yours.
As far as myself I definitely do not always agree with my govt.
I definitely do not want to end up in a position where expressing that openly could result in negative consequences for me. I believe in freedom and tolerance and I support everyone’s right to think and act how they choose. It’s when they want to dictate how I act that I have a problem as I have said since the first post.

And using a preferred pronoun is dictating how you act?

That a stretch to say the least, and I'm going to say that unless you run your own country you have plenty of people doing far worse than that on a regular basis.

@Scaff
I think moral relativism is a slippery slope.
There are cultures that killed and ate people.
Well for a moral relativist it would seem to me there’s nothing wrong with that.

So its OK for your culture to dictate how you behave? Odd given that just rallied against that.

 

[Danoff]

I only care and have an issue when someone else wants to tell me my belief is wrong and I must change my actions to conform to their belief.
My faith is personal and I have not told you what it is just as I have not asked you to tell me yours.

I don't particularly care what your faith is. But you might at least start with a coherent explanation of what you believe in regard to pronoun use, and then follow that with why. At the moment, I don't really have either one. You were saying earlier that your government had a big role in what pronoun you think is appropriate, but then you backed off, maybe that was my misunderstanding. I definitely got that you cared a lot about plumbing, but then you backed off from that too, and wouldn't answer my questions about example people. So at the moment, I don't really have a sense of even what it is that you think you know, let alone why.

 

[Groundfish]

Do you mean you believe you should act in this manner due to your religios faith?
I would still disagree with you, but I would be able to better understand why you think what you think.
You don't have to declare your religion if you don't want to.

Faith and belief are what they are. You assume I meant religious faith. I am not involved in an organized religion of any sort. However if I was the logic is not different.
That doesn’t mean I do not have faith. For me this discussion regarding my problem is limited to the issue of others attempting to impose their beliefs on me in terms of changing my actions towards them. I do not ask that of them. Why ask it of me?
What I am saying is that I believe that ones own view of themselves is a personal psychological matter really and I don’t think it makes sense to try to force others to compromise their belief system according to a personal psychological matter.
Really, I haven’t backed off on the let’s say ‘natural’ plumbing bit. I think that is reality without surgery or hormones or whatever. I mean there’s attempts here legally to require govt healthcare to do sexual reassignment. I’m not sure if I agree with that.
There’s cases where people have transitioned then changed their mind. I know of a well documented case in particular when it was a youngster.

 

[Danoff]

Really, I haven’t backed off on the let’s say ‘natural’ plumbing bit.

Ok so... I asked a bunch of questions about that... which you ignored.

 

[Scaff]

Faith and belief are what they are. You assume I meant religious faith. I am not involved in an organized religion of any sort. However if I was the logic is not different.
That doesn’t mean I do not have faith. For me this discussion regarding my problem is limited to the issue of others attempting to impose their beliefs on me in terms of changing my actions towards them. I do not ask that of them. Why ask it of me?
What I am saying is that I believe that ones own view of themselves is a personal psychological matter really and I don’t think it makes sense to try to force others to compromise their belief system according to a personal psychological matter.
Really, I haven’t backed off on the let’s say ‘natural’ plumbing bit. I think that is reality without surgery or hormones or whatever. I mean there’s attempts here legally to require govt healthcare to do sexual reassignment. I’m not sure if I agree with that.
There’s cases where people have transitioned then changed their mind. I know of a well documented case in particular when it was a youngster.

And the people who transitioned and didn't?

They are after all the majority.

 

[Groundfish]

Ok so... I asked a bunch of questions about that... which you ignored.

I’m sorry which q? I felt like I responded to the pertinent ones. I feel that I’ve made the point I was trying to make.
I will maybe respectfully try to bow out if you don’t mind.
If there is a particular q I will respond, out of respect.
To me it’s an interesting discussion but I don’t want to continue if I am not adding anything.

And the people who transitioned and didn't?

They are after all the majority.

Again they have the belief and I have mine. Both can coexist in harmony imo.
When either side tries to force the other to do something problems form.
I only posted on the topic because it’s getting to the point here of legislation and I have a problem being told what to say or how to think.
Maybe it’s best if I just bow out of this topic.