Transgender Thread.

  • Thread starter Com Fox
  • 2,391 comments
  • 141,095 views

Transgender is...?

  • Ok for anyone

    Votes: 12 29.3%
  • Ok as long as it's binary (Male to Female or vice versa)

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • Wrong

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • No one's business except the person involved

    Votes: 20 48.8%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 3 7.3%

  • Total voters
    41
You need to separate gender and biological sex.

The later (biological sex) is what you are born with (and is not as simple as just male / female), the former is how each of us learn and chose how to social identify across the male female scale (and many other factors).


Which being pesky is not as cut and dried as you're suggesting here, with it being possible for people to carry both male and female (and other XX and XY combinations) DNA.

Its a well documented (and not as uncommon as many think) genetic fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,XX/46,XY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(genetics)

It still amazes me how many people still forget that the genetics and human development is simply not that simple or straightforward, and that all men carry female chromosomes (you can't get rid of that X no matter how hard you try) and we all have nipples.

YY as a combination is simply not viable, however many others are, including for example XYY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
Very well said. It also goes futher than XX/XY/XXY etc. as there can be an XY (male genotype) that has an extreme androgen insensitivity to the point that it's more beneficial to the individual to become a woman. Usually, people who say that there are only two sexes and therefore two genders are not very informed in the scientific aspect of sexual differentiation.
 
I understand the difference now. The way I understand it now is if for example someone is biologically human, but claims he is a lion. That person choses to identify as a Lion. If that identity does not offend or hurt anyone people, it should be ok to be a Lion.
As far as I'm concerned they can be a Lion all they like (or Tiger).

This is quite controversial though. People that are from 1 ethnic minority identifying with another is often frowned upon. Like for example a white person from european descent, claiming he/she is african american. Biologically he/she is european descent, but he/she identifies with african american culture etc. Would that be ok?
It certainly can be controversial, but its important to keep in mind that genetically none of us are 100% anything, and the vast, vast majority of us have a very mixed genetic lineage.

A good number of people who identify as white in Texas and other southern states in fact have a significant amount of Mexican genetic lineage (something Mexican airways used in a recent ad campaign).

And then we do of course have the extremes......

Vanilla-ice.jpg


...Vanilla ICE!!!!!
 
Despite hearing alot about the non binary, gender fluid people I have yet to encounter one, apart from a few Trans people I have only encountered Normies.

Alot of it sounds weird to me but I haven't seen how it works in day to day life so who am I to judge.
 
Usually, people who say that there are only two sexes and therefore two genders are not very informed in the scientific aspect of sexual differentiation.
Alternatively, there are those of us who are very well informed, and will remind others that all aspects of gender can be expressed by an amount of maleness (including zero) and an amount of femaleness (including zero), and no other quantity... which would be two genders. They can be highly mixed, ambiguous and indeterminate, leading to myriad intermediate conditions, but it's still just two.
 
Alternatively, there are those of us who are very well informed, and will remind others that all aspects of gender can be expressed by an amount of maleness (including zero) and an amount of femaleness (including zero), and no other quantity... which would be two genders. They can be highly mixed, ambiguous and indeterminate, leading to myriad intermediate conditions, but it's still just two.
So what you're saying is that it's OK for the person to identify as male or female independent of sex but those should be the only two options? If that's what you're saying, I'm with you for the sake of simplicity but I don't mind people going deeper and explaining their specific "ratio" of male to female.
 
As far as I'm concerned they can be a Lion all they like (or Tiger).


It certainly can be controversial, but its important to keep in mind that genetically none of us are 100% anything, and the vast, vast majority of us have a very mixed genetic lineage.

A good number of people who identify as white in Texas and other southern states in fact have a significant amount of Mexican genetic lineage (something Mexican airways used in a recent ad campaign).

And then we do of course have the extremes......

Vanilla-ice.jpg


...Vanilla ICE!!!!!

I know the comparison is not 100% accurate, but it is comparible. In essence it is seperating the biological identity with the psychological identity. Non-binary as I now understand is a mental state.

Vanilla Ice is not that good of example, he might appropiated certain cultural Characteristics, but I dont think he claimed to be black. Like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal

dolezal-index.jpg


or this one:
 
So what you're saying is
No.

I'm saying that all gender identities (and sexual phenotypes, for that matter) can -- and can only -- be expressed in terms of amount of maleness and amount of femaleness. In fact that is what I said.

Think of a graph. The X-axis is maleness, from 0-100. The Y-axis is femaleness, from 0-100. Every gender identity appears on that graph. There is none that appears beyond that graph, and there is no Z-axis that represents another quantity.


If talking body phenotypes, I'd put CAIS at around 25 on the X-axis - internalised, non-functioning testes ("streak testes") means some quantity of maleness only visible on body scans and in a completely functionless way - and maybe 50 or so on the Y-axis - an external vulva with blind (or "pouch"), non-functioning vagina gives the outward physical appearance of femaleness, but no normal function and no female puberty. Something like Turners would be sub-10 and 65. "Normal" male and female would be 75+ and sub-10, or sub-10 and 75+.

None of these things need a third axis with another type of sex or gender on it to describe them.
 
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Okay, so I'm not about to defend someone that immediately assumes such a gesture isn't innocent. That said, the odds of it being innocent drop significantly if a subsequent request to be referred to as an alternate gender is ignored.

Yea I'd certainly agree with that.

1. Who cares? The person being misgendered. That's who. 2. I perhaps should have said identity, rather than status, but either way, I do have one. Cismale. 3. I'm not non-binary, so I can't help you there. If you really want to know, ask someone who is non-binary.

1) Why does the "misgendered" person care? What difference does it make what gender they're referred to as?
2) What gives you your gender identity? Please explain in great detail why you think you're "Cismale".
3) You can answer my question about why you think you're not non-binary. Didn't occur to you?

I didn't say I won't call Brett Betty.
I'm saying I won't call Brett/Betty a woman.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to just never refer to a person as he or she.

Why not? What's wrong with calling someone a woman who wants to be called a woman? Why does that harm you?

I think a lot of this new era acceptance is great. Girls don't have to play with dolls, boys can wear pink, and people can please themselves as they wish.

-But- None of that is asking all of society to play pretend.

What's pretend about it? Society does play pretend, by pretending that there are two clear cut bins that everyone can be grouped into. There are women that are more masculine than me (I'm a man, not that I have wonderful reasons for demanding to be called that). I've posted an example in this thread. There are men that are more feminine than my sister (she's a woman), I've posted an example in this thread. So what's the harm in referring to them one way or another? Why do you care? You can't really see someone's chromosomes. All you can see is how they appear. And if they want to be called something that you wouldn't normally call them just by looking at them, why on Earth do you have a problem with doing so?

Playing into someones delerious fantasy is help?

The fantasy is that you know what it is to be a man or woman, and that there isn't some huge spectrum of everything imaginable in smeared out across humanity.

Is that how we help people with mental problems? Just go along with whatever they say and want?

I don't think it's fair to assume that ever transgender person has mental problems. But I'll tell you how you don't help someone with mental problems. Insist that there is something wrong with them and attempt to force them into a rigid social construct that doesn't fit. I seriously doubt your pretense that you want to help someone with mental problems.


What ever happened to being comfortable in your own skin, and loving yourself for who you are?

That's one of my messages, and I totally agree with it. But again, why does them asking to be called by a particular gender mean that they're anything but comfortable in their skin?
 
No.

I'm saying that all gender identities (and sexual phenotypes, for that matter) can -- and can only -- be expressed in terms of amount of maleness and amount of femaleness. In fact that is what I said.

Think of a graph. The X-axis is maleness, from 0-100. The Y-axis is femaleness, from 0-100. Every gender identity appears on that graph. There is none that appears beyond that graph, and there is no Z-axis that represents another quantity.


If talking body phenotypes, I'd put CAIS at around 25 on the X-axis - internalised, non-functioning testes ("streak testes") means some quantity of maleness only visible on body scans and in a completely functionless way - and maybe 50 or so on the Y-axis - an external vulva with blind (or "pouch"), non-functioning vagina gives the outward physical appearance of femaleness, but no normal function and no female puberty. Something like Turners would be sub-10 and 65. "Normal" male and female would be 75+ and sub-10, or sub-10 and 75+.

None of these things need a third axis with another type of sex or gender on it to describe them.

I think your explanation would make more sense on an axis then it does on a graph, or at least be harder to misinterpret.

An axis always has 2 'ends' these ends for the spectrum of genders are male and female. There is no third direction possible as an axis is 1 dimensional.

I'm not claiming the axis is the best description of genderfluidness but it's easier to explain there are only 2 genders and everyone is a mix of one of those.

And this is just my opinion but I think a lot of us would fall less far to an edge if we weren't socialised according to sex at birth.
 
I think your explanation would make more sense on an axis then it does on a graph, or at least be harder to misinterpret.

An axis always has 2 'ends' these ends for the spectrum of genders are male and female. There is no third direction possible as an axis is 1 dimensional.

I'm not claiming the axis is the best description of genderfluidness but it's easier to explain there are only 2 genders and everyone is a mix of one of those.
Except that would mean it would not be possible to be a mix. Your presence anywhere on the male part of that spectrum would preclude you being anywhere on the female part...
 
Except that would mean it would not be possible to be a mix. Your presence anywhere on the male part of that spectrum would preclude you being anywhere on the female part...

Excuse me, did you just assume that I'm a <50,15>? I identify as a <23,62>.
 
1) Why does the "misgendered" person care? What difference does it make what gender they're referred to as?

I think in this case intent is important. I'm a long haired biological male. I sometimes get misgendered when they haven't seen my face, I usually don't care because they meant no harm.
Yet I've been intentionally misgendered by people because long hair is only for girls. Yes at that point I'm hurt to be misgendered because the persons intent was to hurt me.

I think when someone misgenders you because they actively deny you're the gender you transitioned to this falls under 5he same category and then it is normal to care. As someone pointed out a lot of them want to pass and everytime someone misgenders them it's a dent in their self esteem. This last paragraph is just speculation as I don't know a transgender person as far as I know.


Except that would mean it would not be possible to be a mix. Your presence anywhere on the male part of that spectrum would preclude you being anywhere on the female part...
I disagree because you see it as two halfs, I don't when one is 60%male 40% female he/she isn't male it just d3scribes his position on the spectrum. Where do I misunderstand your perspective?
 
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And that's going to change your entire DNA?
You implied that DNA can't be changed. I showed a counterpoint.

As far as changing large enough portions of the DNA of an adult human to change their biological sex, I don't know if/when that will come about, biology isn't my field. Most technology tends to grow in capability with time however.
 
I disagree because you see it as two halfs
No, I quite clearly don't.
I don't when one is 60%male 40% female he/she isn't male it just d3scribes his position on the spectrum. Where do I misunderstand your perspective?
Here's your spectrum

Female 100% ------------------------- 0 ------------------------- 100% Male

Now here's a person who is at 60% on the male part:

Female 100% ------------------------- 0 ---------------*--------- 100% Male

See how that person is not on the female part of the spectrum at all? How would you represent their 40% femaleness on that a single line? How would you represent someone who is 100% male and female (genderfluid in terms of sexual identity, full hermaphrodite in terms of physical characteristics)?


Now, here's the male/female graph:
theaxisofpenis.jpg


Ta, and indeed, daa.
 
I think in this case intent is important. I'm a long haired biological male. I sometimes get misgendered when they haven't seen my face, I usually don't care because they meant no harm.
Yet I've been intentionally misgendered by people because long hair is only for girls. Yes at that point I'm hurt to be misgendered because the persons intent was to hurt me.

I tried to address that here:

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, almost anything can be intended as an insult, and should be offensive. The word hello can be insulting. A salute can be insulting. But there's nothing inherently insulting about being referred to as a gender. It would have to be intended as an insult, and to take offense based on that intent would make it no different than any other word. If someone doesn't intend to insult you and refers to you as female, would you take offense? If so, why?

I think when someone misgenders you because they actively deny you're the gender you transitioned to this falls under 5he same category and then it is normal to care. As someone pointed out a lot of them want to pass and everytime someone misgenders them it's a dent in their self esteem. This last paragraph is just speculation as I don't know a transgender person as far as I know.

You're no different from them (fundamentally) in this conversation. You have a gender, you get labeled the other gender sometimes, sometimes out of spite. We can talk about degrees and frequency of occurrence, but in the end all of us make claims about our gender, and have a preferred pronoun that we think best describes us. Some of us pick a pronoun for ourselves that others tend to pick as well, and some of us do not. But we all play this game to a degree.

So when someone spitefully refers to you as female, you take it as an insult because it was intended to be. But it is not inherently insulting to be called female. They called you something that is not insulting in an attempt to insult you. So you should be insulted at their intent, not their words. Being called a man can be an insult as well. "You're such a man" can be intended to be backhanded, and I think (I'm struggling to think of a time when this would have happened) that's probably happened to me. Ah, I know a better example...

"You're so white" can certainly be an insult. But it's not inherently insulting to be called white. What the person means is that I'm conforming to some stereotype that they have for white people that they consider to be bad. Maybe I wouldn't even consider it bad, but they do. My choice about whether to be insulted would have a lot to do with whether I also consider it to be bad.

So if someone calls me a woman, and it's intended as an insult, I'm trying to figure out what the real insult is - because there's nothing wrong with being a woman. For example, if they're calling me weak (in a very sexist manner), I'm getting upset because they're calling me weak, not because they called me a woman. And I'm also getting upset, on behalf of the women I know, that this person is simultaneously insulting them as well.

Edit:

Let's pretend, for a moment, that this person who is calling me white has a very rigid definition of what white is. I point out that I identify as native american (I don't, but we're in a hypothetical here). They say "I think you're white, you look white". I say "my father was native american, and I consider myself to be one as well". They say "I think you look white so I'm calling you white".

There is no offense intended there. There is just a rigid definition of what it means to be white. Why do I care? Honestly. If they want to think I'm white and I think I'm native american, what difference does it make? They don't think less of me, I don't think less of me, and there's nothing wrong with being grouped either way.
 
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I tried to address that here:





You're no different from them (fundamentally) in this conversation. You have a gender, you get labeled the other gender sometimes, sometimes out of spite. We can talk about degrees and frequency of occurrence, but in the end all of us make claims about our gender, and have a preferred pronoun that we think best describes us. Some of us pick a pronoun for ourselves that others tend to pick as well, and some of us do not. But we all play this game to a degree.

So when someone spitefully refers to you as female, you take it as an insult because it was intended to be. But it is not inherently insulting to be called female. They called you something that is not insulting in an attempt to insult you. So you should be insulted at their intent, not their words. Being called a man can be an insult as well. "You're such a man" can be intended to be backhanded, and I think (I'm struggling to think of a time when this would have happened) that's probably happened to me. Ah, I know a better example...

"You're so white" can certainly be an insult. But it's not inherently insulting to be called white. What the person means is that I'm conforming to some stereotype that they have for white people that they consider to be bad. Maybe I wouldn't even consider it bad, but they do. My choice about whether to be insulted would have a lot to do with whether I also consider it to be bad.

So if someone calls me a woman, and it's intended as an insult, I'm trying to figure out what the real insult is - because there's nothing wrong with being a woman. For example, if they're calling me weak (in a very sexist manner), I'm getting upset because they're calling me weak, not because they called me a woman. And I'm also getting upset, on behalf of the women I know, that this person is simultaneously insulting them as well.

This discussion reminds me of the white privilege thread about perceived racism. The intent is very important, but there are instances when a joke can be perceived as malicious. Like making a racist joke with a close minority friend can be very funny, but very insulting to someone who doesnt know the context of the circumstance. This applies to people with different genders/sexual orientation as well.

I however agree that recently the accusations of a "snow flake" generation are valid. The problem is that legitimate cases of racism, sexism etc. are being drowned out and not being taken serious anymore with all these crazies claiming racism/sexism etc. lately. Its like the boy crying wolff. Trial by media is a trend I really wish would stop soon.
 
They called you something that is not insulting in an attempt to insult you. So you should be insulted at their intent,

I agree with your post and I wanted to single out this part as I didn't explicitly stated this.

I am at that point insulted by their intent. And they probably find it insulting to tell someone not to conform to what's perceived normal in their eyes.


Edit: @Famine thanks for pointing out the mistakes in my reasoning, it was enlighting as is always.
 
People may not see you as male or female.

Thats a slippery slope though. In my opinion saying you are male/female, when you are fully transitioned, is misleading. I dont know what the proper politically correct way is, but when asked I expect that person to be honest and refer to themselves as transgender.
 
The thing that makes things complicated are sports, sure you can say that person is now a Woman or Man, but when it comes to feats of strength and endurance what happens then, we are certainly in the early stages of dealing with this complication.

I'm not a fan of the current approach of just denying the obvious(at least in some disaplines), it's not a sensible long term solution as there is clear advantages still even with limits on testorone.
 
The thing that makes things complicated are sports, sure you can say that person is now a Woman or Man, but when it comes to feats of strength and endurance what happens then, we are certainly in the early stages of dealing with this complication.

It should not matter if they hold the same standards with regards to doping, hormones etc. I am not a scientist, but that should be able to be measured and researched.
 
Thats a slippery slope though. In my opinion saying you are male/female, when you are fully transitioned, is misleading. I dont know what the proper politically correct way is, but when asked I expect that person to be honest and refer to themselves as transgender.

In what circumstances? I don't expect them to tell right on. They transitioned to a sex to be that sex not to be transgender.

The thing that makes things complicated are sports, sure you can say that person is now a Woman or Man, but when it comes to feats of strength and endurance what happens then, we are certainly in the early stages of dealing with this complication.

I'm not a fan of the current approach of just denying the obvious(at least in some disaplines), it's not a sensible long term solution as there is clear advantages still even with limits on testorone.

This indeed is the hard part imo maybe someone can enlighten us.
 
In what circumstances? I don't expect them to tell right on. They transitioned to a sex to be that sex not to be transgender.

I dont mean that he/she needs to answer every stranger asking, your gender is your own private matter. But in a friendly conversation and a person asks out of curiosity. Should that person just say male/female (being fully transitioned) or explain being a Trans? In my opinion it wouldnt be ethical to state you are male/female (whichever he/she transitioned to).
 
I'll rephrase to "most people don't care".
And below is a good example why.

There aren't too many subjects or posts I've ever had quoted 7 times.
The fact that some people are so concerned with this, the amount that some people are angered, offended, or "insulted" by such a trivial issue, is simply amazing.

The fact that people swarm around like bees, looking to "enlighten" or force their way of thinking down people's throats... You're just pissing people off.
It's fascism at best.

You guys think people that worry they'll lose their job and livelihood if they say the wrong thing are just going to sing a musical and have a montage and change of mind?
Does fear lead to empathy now?

I would dare say nearly every person I know does not care. Most or all of them have no problem with people being transgender.
They do have a problem with fear of persecution over some childish "adults" hypersensitivity.

And that's what it is, childish.
If you look like a "girl" you have zero reason to be offended, upset, or angry when someone refers to you as one.

Every guy I know has been called some form of feminine as an insult, whether as a joke, in all seriousness, or both.
But the only people that freak out about it are transgender.
Hell most of us get called worse.

I'm not going to bicker with 7 people at once just because they have a different opinion.
I stand by what I said, I believe what I said.

I understand there are in-betweens, I understand there are 7 billion people, and that covers every version of human possible.

I understand science is changing, and getting more realistic.
I also understand the same people that tell me all about gender, and gender and sex aren't the same, also typically claim that society's gender constructs are false.
So how can you identify as a woman if there is no definition of a woman?

She and her are pronouns to call a woman, aka a female.
They aren't just some made up names to call people on a whim, but it seems we're changing the language to fit the narrative of hypersensitive people.
Nobody ever explained to them that changing the name of something doesn't change what it actually is.

But keep shoving your opinions down everyone's throats, don't let me stop you.
I'm sure it will change everyone's mind.

You implied that DNA can't be changed. I showed a counterpoint.

As far as changing large enough portions of the DNA of an adult human to change their biological sex, I don't know if/when that will come about, biology isn't my field. Most technology tends to grow in capability with time however.
It's not a delirious fantasy when transitioning is proven to alleviate dysphoria in most cases. Whatever the solution is the best answer we have currently is to allow people to transition, so they become happy with their life, the dysphoria is alleviated and it doesn't affect the rest of society. I don't really see what the problem is. It's a treatment and it works effectively.



By saying "they realise it's not real" you're assuming that one day every transgender person is going to suddenly change their minds. This doesn't happen very frequently (although it has happened).



That doesn't answer my question though; transgender people exist and they need to be able to live their lives so what should they be doing about things like visiting the bathroom and using pronouns?



Nothing happened to that, there's still the chance that a lot of people are happy with who they are. But if you're suffering from dysphoria then you literally can't feel comfortable in your own skin. You can't just think your way out of it.



In what way does generating money come into this?



For trans people it IS what they want. That's why they transition. They are also confident that they ARE the person they transition into being. Hence the term "assigned [gender] at birth". Saying someone "used to be a man/woman" is offensive to many trans folk.



Why is producing eggs a qualifier for anything? Sex is determined by different things to gender.

Not that your 'fix' for your 'problem' is offensive but I'm always wondering, if you'd refer to a MtF as she, she looks female you know, what harm would that do to yoy society or anyone. If the answer is nothing why does it matter? Not too important just something I never understood.




This is a ship of theseus question. And the answer is heavily debated. I believe they've changed if you take a daewoo and a viper and slowely but surely start replacing all daewoo parts with the viper parts at a certain point that deawoo becomes a viper you can still call it a daewoo but it defeats all purpose of naming it as it no longer described what you mean by a daewoo.



Who's asking you to pretend anything? A person looks female feels female but was originaly a male would be reffered to as she. Not doing that is playing pretend.



First of proof it's a delussion on the same.level as standard bodydismorphia. If that's not the case your argument is invalid as that is the premise JP and Shapiro use ;)

If not explain to me why you think they are delussional.



Do you have a refrence to show these people comit suicide as much after reassignment surgery as before.

I won't accept the JP or Shapiro vid they've lied about this before.

And you're an ass for suggesting we/I don't care for that suicide is a very sensitive topic having lost multiple friends to it and mr myself going to a psych to learn and.deal with this.



Yes that's why, money...
Keeping these people in a state of bad mental health would be way more profitable wouldn't it?




This last sentence, you make an assumption I do not agree with. You assume there is only natural you, as in there can't be a discrepancy between what you psychologically feel, or how you perceive the world, and you physical form.


Sorry for typo's, these phones you know.

Edit: Tree'd on some points :P

You need to separate gender and biological sex.

The later (biological sex) is what you are born with (and is not as simple as just male / female), the former is how each of us learn and chose how to social identify across the male female scale (and many other factors).


Which being pesky is not as cut and dried as you're suggesting here, with it being possible for people to carry both male and female (and other XX and XY combinations) DNA.

Its a well documented (and not as uncommon as many think) genetic fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,XX/46,XY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(genetics)

It still amazes me how many people still forget that the genetics and human development is simply not that simple or straightforward, and that all men carry female chromosomes (you can't get rid of that X no matter how hard you try) and we all have nipples.

YY as a combination is simply not viable, however many others are, including for example XYY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome

I don't understand this argument. Transgender individuals are literally banned from the United States military. People do "care" how people identify, but unfortunately many of those that "care" do so with prejudice.

Yea I'd certainly agree with that.



1) Why does the "misgendered" person care? What difference does it make what gender they're referred to as?
2) What gives you your gender identity? Please explain in great detail why you think you're "Cismale".
3) You can answer my question about why you think you're not non-binary. Didn't occur to you?



Why not? What's wrong with calling someone a woman who wants to be called a woman? Why does that harm you?



What's pretend about it? Society does play pretend, by pretending that there are two clear cut bins that everyone can be grouped into. There are women that are more masculine than me (I'm a man, not that I have wonderful reasons for demanding to be called that). I've posted an example in this thread. There are men that are more feminine than my sister (she's a woman), I've posted an example in this thread. So what's the harm in referring to them one way or another? Why do you care? You can't really see someone's chromosomes. All you can see is how they appear. And if they want to be called something that you wouldn't normally call them just by looking at them, why on Earth do you have a problem with doing so?



The fantasy is that you know what it is to be a man or woman, and that there isn't some huge spectrum of everything imaginable in smeared out across humanity.



I don't think it's fair to assume that ever transgender person has mental problems. But I'll tell you how you don't help someone with mental problems. Insist that there is something wrong with them and attempt to force them into a rigid social construct that doesn't fit. I seriously doubt your pretense that you want to help someone with mental problems.




That's one of my messages, and I totally agree with it. But again, why does them asking to be called by a particular gender mean that they're anything but comfortable in their skin?

The thing that makes things complicated are sports, sure you can say that person is now a Woman or Man, but when it comes to feats of strength and endurance what happens then, we are certainly in the early stages of dealing with this complication.

I'm not a fan of the current approach of just denying the obvious(at least in some disaplines), it's not a sensible long term solution as there is clear advantages still even with limits on testorone.
Yeah, it's almost as if men and woman are different.

The real topic of discussion here, is should we try to change everything to satisfy 1% of people, or should that 1% be able to understand that they are different, even if it is a scale as Famine pointed out, the vast majority still fit well within reasonable bounds.
 
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The fact that people swarm around like bees, looking to "enlighten" or force their way of thinking down people's throats... You're just pissing people off.
It's fascism at best.
No. It's discussion. People who don't agree with your points are responding to your points with their own.

It'd be nearer to fascism if those in charge of the community visited punishments upon you for daring to have a different opinion. And speaking as someone who disagrees with some of your points and has responded to your points with my own and who is in charge of the community, I've personally rejected two post reports on your posts in this thread (not from any of the people you quote, I should add), and given you no punishments...

... so no, it's not fascism.
 
I'll rephrase to "most people don't care".
And below is a good example why.

There aren't too many subjects or posts I've ever had quoted 7 times.
The fact that some people are so concerned with this, the amount that some people are angered, offended, or "insulted" by such a trivial issue, is simply amazing.

The fact that people swarm around like bees, looking to "enlighten" or force their way of thinking down people's throats... You're just pissing people off.
It's fascism at best.

You guys think somebody that's worried they'll lose their job and livelihood if they say the wrong thing is going to help?
Does fear lead to empathy now?

I would dare say nearly every person I know does not care. Most or all of them have no problem with people being transgender.
They do have a problem with fear of persecution over some childish "adults" hypersensitivity.

And that's what it is, childish.
If you look like a "girl" you have zero reason to be offended, upset, or angry when someone refers to you as one.

Every guy I know has been called some form of feminine as an insult, whether as a joke, in all seriousness, or both.
But the only people that freak out about it are transgender.
Hell most of us get called worse.

I'm not going to bicker with 7 people at once just because they have a different opinion.
I stand by what I said, I believe what I said.

I understand there are in-betweens, I understand there are 7 billion people, and that covers every version of human possible.

I understand science is changing, and getting more realistic.
I also understand the same people that tell me all about gender, and gender and sex aren't the same, also typically claim that society's gender constructs are false.
So how can you identify as a woman if there is no definition of a woman?

She and her are pronouns to call a woman, aka a female.
They aren't just some made up names to call people on a whim, but it seems we're changing the language to fit the narrative of hypersensitive people.
Nobody ever explained to them that changing the name of something doesn't change what it actually is.

But keep shoving your opinions down everyone's throats, don't let me stop you.
I'm sure it will change everyone's mind.

To summarize:
- this is a forum were people are supposed to share their opinions and views
- No one here was offended. They just want to know more arguments behind some of your statements.
- I also had to learn the difference between gender and sex ( the difference of as a woman and identifying with a woman)
- Social justice warriors who you are referring to are only a small part of the community (dont generalise)
- I look chinese, but was born in the Netherlands and therefore identify with both. By ethnic definition and biologically I am chinese though and not dutch. So am I dutch or chinese?
 
To summarize:
- this is a forum were people are supposed to share their opinions and views
- No one here was offended. They just want to know more arguments behind some of your statements.
- I also had to learn the difference between gender and sex ( the difference of as a woman and identifying with a woman)
- Social justice warriors who you are referring to are only a small part of the community (dont generalise)
See below.
So one person called me an ass, and 2 others reported me.

No. It's discussion. People who don't agree with your points are responding to your points with their own.

It'd be nearer to fascism if those in charge of the community visited punishments upon you for daring to have a different opinion. And speaking as someone who disagrees with some of your points and has responded to your points with my own and who is in charge of the community, I've personally rejected two post reports on your posts in this thread (not from any of the people you quote, I should add), and given you no punishments...

... so no, it's not fascism.
Fair enough, but how many opposing points of view received so much attention?

Obviously there are people around with such intent.

In general, the people that I've seen over the internet who disagree with my views are extremely aggressive about it, and also extremely angry.
So I guess that's what I'm accustomed to.
 
I'll rephrase to "most people don't care".
And below is a good example why.

There aren't too many subjects or posts I've ever had quoted 7 times.
The fact that some people are so concerned with this, the amount that some people are angered, offended, or "insulted" by such a trivial issue, is simply amazing.

It's a thread in the Opinions section of the forum. There is nothing strange going on. Additionally, you're not being targeted in any way. The people you quoted aren't even solely focused on you, some of them are having their own discussions among themselves.
 
Fair enough, but how many opposing points of view received so much attention?
It's the Opinions forum. All of them.
Obviously there are people around with such intent.
Which doesn't really matter. You can't be silenced by people who don't agree with your opinion, unless they're staff and you actually have broken a rule in expressing your opinion. Even if that happens, it's not your opinion that's the problem but how you express it.
In general, the people that I've seen over the internet who disagree with my views are extremely aggressive about it, and also extremely angry.
So I guess that's what I'm accustomed to.
We're not the wider internet. We're GTPlanet:
FAQ
However, GTPlanet is not just another disposable “video game forum” – it is a community and a home for thousands of like-minded people which has thrived for more than a decade. These rules have always been in place, and remind everyone to put a little more thought into what they’re contributing to the community. In turn, this creates a more pleasant and attractive place for everyone.
It doesn't matter what passes for discussion on Twitter, or Facebook, or Youtube comments. Our users need to leave the anger at the door and discuss like adults.
 
I dunno, ultimately I personally don’t care much about what a person identifies as. That’s psychological and subject to change.
However when someone thinks that they have a right to determine what I refer to them as...I have a problem with that. Ie if you have a right to say you are 67% male and 15% female simultaneously, don’t get angry at me if I have a right to say that it’s the plumbing that matters not the psychology and I will not compromise my integrity based on your psychology.
In other words if it’s ok that you identify as a percentage or multi gender based on whatever reason, then why is it not ok for me to use whatever pronoun seems appropriate to me depending on my faith?
Ultimately I just don’t care. I voted the way I voted. People have a right to think what they want, but I don’t believe they have a right to tell others what to think much less control their actions based on what they think.
It’s a very controversial topic.
Trans folks are not the only ones who have suffered insults. Where I am from, learning to deal with being insulted is part of growing up. I suffered a ton of ridicule based on my appearance and still do to this day. I learned to deal with it and get on with it.
So ultimately I just don’t care, I only care when someone tries to control my actions. This is neither ‘good’ nor ‘bad.’
My psychology can’t force another to change their actions. Jmo.ymmv.
 
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