Transgender Thread.

  • Thread starter Com Fox
  • 2,391 comments
  • 141,082 views

Transgender is...?

  • Ok for anyone

    Votes: 12 29.3%
  • Ok as long as it's binary (Male to Female or vice versa)

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • Wrong

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • No one's business except the person involved

    Votes: 20 48.8%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 3 7.3%

  • Total voters
    41
Some people feel like they don't fit into any category. This isn't something I have experience of so I can't say how that might manifest itself.

Nothing, and a lot of people who don't identify as cisgender spend years of their life trying to figure out what they are, or what "category" they fit in to.

Non-binary is a catch-all term for gender identities that aren't categorised as male or female (it's not binary, hence non-binary). It can refer to people who are genderfluid, or those who don't identify as any gender.

Non-binary just means "not male or female". Transgender means being a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth. As for choosing a gender or being born with it, I honestly don't know. I'd need to do a bit more research into that area.



Imagine you are born in the Netherlands but then one day you wake up and start to feel like you're from Russia. You brush it off because you're from the Netherlands. You were born there, you do the average things that a Dutch person does every day, everyone addresses you as a Dutch person.

Then it happens again a few weeks later, but again you brush it off; you know you're from the Netherlands, that's what it says on your birth certificate. Slowly, as each day goes by, you begin to feel more and more Russian. Eventually, on a daily basis, you feel so Russian that you feel disgusted by the very thought of being from the Netherlands.

Your own reflection sends you into a spiral of depression and you feel like you're definitely a Russian, and that if people can't consider you a Russian you may as well kill yourself. But when people call you a Russian you feel amazing, like you're finally happy with your life. Everything is better.

What would you want to do about your nationality then? Now replace Russian with "citizen of Earth", as if you suddenly don't feel like you're from any country, but instead just from Earth. Would you still want to identify as being from the Netherlands?

I know that's not a valid comparison because gender is not equal to nationality, but I'm trying to give some context.

This confuses me even more. Maybe I just need more time to fully understand. Also there is no "category". Humans (excluding anomalies) are born either male or female. I can seperate sexual preference and transgender, but not the claim in being neither.

Someone can indentify his nationality wherever he wants, but that doesnt make it accurate. If I say I am a lion born in a humans body or reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln, doesnt make it so? If in your logic, I am allowed to say I am free to be a lion or lion if I want to be, I might understand your chain of thought better. So if being just human or not lincoln makes someone unhappy/suicidal would you choose to accept that person like they want to be or would you want to correct their thought?

If it is that essential to let someone to be happy and be whoever he/she wants to be. I can rail behind that thought better.
 
This confuses me even more. Maybe I just need more time to fully understand. Also there is no "category". Humans (excluding anomalies) are born either male or female. I can seperate sexual preference and transgender, but not the claim in being neither.

Someone can indentify his nationality wherever he wants, but that doesnt make it accurate. If I say I am a lion born in a humans body or reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln, doesnt make it so? If in your logic, I am allowed to say I am free to be a lion or lion if I want to be, I might understand your chain of thought better. So if being just human or not lincoln makes someone unhappy/suicidal would you choose to accept that person like they want to be or would you want to correct their thought?

There are differing schools of thoughts on identifying as something non-human, or another human who exists/existed. For me, those are all a step too far. I can get behind identifying as a different gender or being non-binary but as an animal? That's just too much for me. So I can't really make that connection.

However someone who is non-binary is just someone who doesn't feel like they can say their gender is male or female. That's fine by me, I will just address them by their name and not use gendered pronouns.

If it is that essential to let someone to be happy and be whoever he/she wants to be. I can rail behind that thought better.

When it comes to people who are transgender this is the key. They're not trying to take anything away from anyone who is cisgender, they're just trying to lead happy lives (for the most part anyway).
 
There are differing schools of thoughts on identifying as something non-human, or another human who exists/existed. For me, those are all a step too far. I can get behind identifying as a different gender or being non-binary but as an animal? That's just too much for me. So I can't really make that connection.

However someone who is non-binary is just someone who doesn't feel like they can say their gender is male or female. That's fine by me, I will just address them by their name and not use gendered pronouns.



When it comes to people who are transgender this is the key. They're not trying to take anything away from anyone who is cisgender, they're just trying to lead happy lives (for the most part anyway).

You actually explained my confusion a lot better. For me saying you are neither male/female is basically stating you are not human. I did exaggerate the example to explain my own views. But all in all you have been helpfull to help me understand the idea behind being gender neutral or non-binary. Thanks!
 
You actually explained my confusion a lot better. For me saying you are neither male/female is basically stating you are not human. I did exaggerate the example to explain my own views. But all in all you have been helpfull to help me understand the idea behind being gender neutral or non-binary. Thanks!

While I may disagree with you on the non-binary viewpoint (I have multiple friends who are non-binary and they're all fantastic humans!), I'm glad I was able to help you understand some things a bit better.
 
While I may disagree with you on the non-binary viewpoint (I have multiple friends who are non-binary and they're all fantastic humans!), I'm glad I was able to help you understand some things a bit better.

I never claimed they werent good people.:cheers: I am just more at peace knowing that as long they are allowed to be who they want, without harming anyone, are happy then I can live with that too. It is still illogical to me, but I already made peace not being able to understand everything.
 
Nope. They mean exactly the same in the dutch language. The biological gender. Sekse=geslacht=sex. So no there is no dutch word for gender as identity. Try to say it out loud and you will understand both only define gender as sex.

That said I have discovered that you can use "gender" as a way to define gender identity:

For the dutch speaking:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_(identiteitsaspect)
The way I understood it was that you said that we only have one worde for gender and sex and that is why I said that you are wrong. Geslacht en sekse are both different words but mean the same thing just as gender and sex.

So, I'm right because we have two different words exactly like the English language. Gender and sex (to identify the sex of ... ).

The sex = sekse of a person (male or female)

The gender = geslacht of a person (male or female)

qertqzet.jpg


sdfsq.jpg



Geslacht

Variabele waarmee onderscheid wordt gemaakt tussen mannen en vrouwen.
Geslacht

Sekse; het man of vrouw zijn



All of this if I understood you correctly of course.
 
The way I understood it was that you said that we only have one worde for gender and sex and that is why I said that you are wrong. Geslacht en sekse are both different words but mean the same thing just as gender and sex.

So, I'm right because we have two different words exactly like the English language. Gender and sex (to identify the sex of ... ).

The sex = sekse of a person (male or female)

The gender = geslacht of a person (male or female)

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Your not. I was speaking about the premise we dont have a word to define "gender identity" not biological gender.

In dutch sex and geslacht mean exactly the same and are interchangeable. Perhaps you read the premise wrong?
 
EDIT: I'm not trying to annoy or upset anyone here but the replies below are my opinions on this and it would be interesting to hear alternatives.



People who feel suicidal because they feel they aren't in the correct body would disagree.
People who get assaulted in bathrooms just for being transgender would disagree.



What gave you this idea? I have quite a few transgender/non-binary friends and none of them want this. I don't even know where to start with the concept of lesbian or gay people wanting specifically straight people to be attracted to them.



The dream often is to be able to change to the opposite sex, yes, but transgender people have varying relationship needs just like everyone else. Using the term "normal" to refer to people who are cisgender heterosexuals is also hugely offensive.



The goal is to not feel completely alienated by your own body. Sexual attraction is completely separate.



This is called "passing" and passing as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth is absolutely a goal for many transgender people.



How do you know? Again I've met a lot of transgender people who are very effective at passing as their chosen gender.



That's because genitalia don't define your looks.
People who feel suicidal and trapped in the wrong body have severe mental health issues.

I'm not really looking to discuss it, I'm not going to play pretend with anybody. If you want to be a transgender I don't care, but slapping a penis on a woman does not make her a man. Hormone therapy does not make her a man.

Entire bone structure, body mass, fat displacement, head size, oh, and that pesky DNA.

You cannot change your make.
 
They're not trying to take anything away from anyone who is cisgender, they're just trying to lead happy lives (for the most part anyway).
IlliterateCheeryKingfisher-size_restricted.gif


I think the biggest issue is certain individuals' and groups' perception that those who say they don't align with just one of just two only do so in an effort to weaponize such a position either to do harm or to gain an advantage.
 
I'm not really looking to discuss it, I'm not going to play pretend with anybody. If you want to be a transgender I don't care, but slapping a penis on a woman does not make her a man. Hormone therapy does not make her a man.
It always disappoints me to see such rigid thinking. No one is playing pretend. Who they are is who they tell me they are. If someone tells me they prefer a certain set of pronouns, I use them. If someone tells me they have a new name, I use it. I do it for two reasons. First is simple decency. Second is that it costs me nothing. It does not cost me my dignity to address a person they way they want to be addressed. If anything, it adds to the dignity and self-worth of the person I'm addressing, and my own as well.
 
but slapping a penis on a woman does not make her a man. Hormone therapy does not make her a man.

It depends on what you mean when you say "man". If you mean y chromosome, ok yea you're right. If you mean conform to a series of male stereotypes, I'm not with you.

Entire bone structure, body mass, fat displacement, head size, oh, and that pesky DNA.

"Men" come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. That includes bone structure, body mass, fat displacement, head size, even DNA.

You cannot change your make.

That depends on what you mean by "make". If you mean a series of stereotypes associated with a particular set of chromosomes, I'm not with you. If you mean your chromosomes, I'm on board.

It always disappoints me to see such rigid thinking. No one is playing pretend. Who they are is who they tell me they are. If someone tells me they prefer a certain set of pronouns, I use them. If someone tells me they have a new name, I use it. I do it for two reasons. First is simple decency. Second is that it costs me nothing. It does not cost me my dignity to address a person they way they want to be addressed. If anything, it adds to the dignity and self-worth of the person I'm addressing, and my own as well.

I agree with all of that. It's the part where they insist when they start to look hypocritical to me.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "insist."

Become offended at the notion of being included with a particular gender, as if it could possibly be an insult to be included with such a wonderful group of standout individuals as "men", and such a wonderful group of standout individuals as "women". Honestly I'm honored to be in either group.
 
Become offended at the notion of being included with a particular gender, as if it could possibly be an insult to be included with such a wonderful group of standout individuals as "men", and such a wonderful group of standout individuals as "women". Honestly I'm honored to be in either group.
If a person is non-binary and another person insists they must be either male or female, then the NB person has a right to be offended. It's not that they hold men or women in contempt. The source of their anger is the attempt to erase their status as non-binary by insisting they belong to one gender or the other.
 
Become offended at the notion of being included with a particular gender, as if it could possibly be an insult to be included with such a wonderful group of standout individuals as "men", and such a wonderful group of standout individuals as "women". Honestly I'm honored to be in either group.
I happily identify as a male and I'm fortunate enough to have come by certain characteristics commonly associated with males of my species naturally. As such, I'd prefer to be referred to as male, and I may or may not become offended by one's propensity to refer to me as female. If I did become offended, though, it wouldn't be because I have anything against the opposite sex, as I think women are fantastic, in addition to being [as far as I've been made aware] necessary for continued propagation of our species.
 
Here's my take:
Biologically, if you have a penis you are male, and if you have a vagina you are female. That's all there is too it, you can't be in between. However if you for some reason don't identify as the gender on your birth certificate, that is OK but you shouldn't be able to say that you don't have a gender. That just complicates things because you are either one or the other. If you were a male and you now consider yourself as female, you are are female. If you were a female and you now consider yourself male, you are male. So don't go round saying you're trans.
 
Biologically, if you have a penis you are male, and if you have a vagina you are female. That's all there is too it, you can't be in between.
You literally can. You can be both and you can be neither, although neither is more common than both.
If you were a male and you now consider yourself as female, you are are female. If you were a female and you now consider yourself male, you are male. So don't go round saying you're trans.
"Trans" (Latin: Across) simply means that the individual's gender either is, or was, the opposite to what they believe it should be. You can be transgender and still in your birth gender, or transgender and no longer in your birth gender.

And, typically, they don't "go round saying" it. The general idea is not to be noticed as different from other people in your assigned gender. You've probably encountered more transgender individuals than you think you have.
 
You literally can. You can be both and you can be neither, although neither is more common than both.

"Trans" (Latin: Across) simply means that the individual's gender either is, or was, the opposite to what they believe it should be. You can be transgender and still in your birth gender, or transgender and no longer in your birth gender.

And, typically, they don't "go round saying" it. The general idea is not to be noticed as different from other people in your assigned gender. You've probably encountered more transgender individuals than you think you have.
But using the the term transgender only distances yourself more from the general population...
 
If a person is non-binary and another person insists they must be either male or female, then the NB person has a right to be offended. It's not that they hold men or women in contempt. The source of their anger is the attempt to erase their status as non-binary by insisting they belong to one gender or the other.

Who cares? If they think you're male, great. If they think you're female, great. What's the problem? You don't have a gender "status" btw, I doubt that even has meaning.

Edit:

Also, explain to me what a non-binary person is and how they know they are one.

I happily identify as a male and I'm fortunate enough to have come by certain characteristics commonly associated with males of my species naturally. As such, I'd prefer to be referred to as male, and I may or may not become offended by one's propensity to refer to me as female. If I did become offended, though, it wouldn't be because I have anything against the opposite sex

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, almost anything can be intended as an insult, and should be offensive. The word hello can be insulting. A salute can be insulting. But there's nothing inherently insulting about being referred to as a gender. It would have to be intended as an insult, and to take offense based on that intent would make it no different than any other word. If someone doesn't intend to insult you and refers to you as female, would you take offense? If so, why?
 
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, almost anything can be intended as an insult, and should be offensive. The word hello can be insulting. A salute can be insulting. But there's nothing inherently insulting about being referred to as a gender. It would have to be intended as an insult, and to take offense based on that intent would make it no different than any other word. If someone doesn't intend to insult you and refers to you as female, would you take offense? If so, why?
Okay, so I'm not about to defend someone that immediately assumes such a gesture isn't innocent. That said, the odds of it being innocent drop significantly if a subsequent request to be referred to as an alternate gender is ignored.
 
Who cares? If they think you're male, great. If they think you're female, great. What's the problem? You don't have a gender "status" btw, I doubt that even has meaning.

Edit:

Also, explain to me what a non-binary person is and how they know they are one.
1. Who cares? The person being misgendered. That's who. 2. I perhaps should have said identity, rather than status, but either way, I do have one. Cismale. 3. I'm not non-binary, so I can't help you there. If you really want to know, ask someone who is non-binary.
 
People who feel suicidal and trapped in the wrong body have severe mental health issues.

If that's the case (I can't recall what the research on this came up with) then surely we should be helping them, not making their lives as difficult as possible?

I'm not really looking to discuss it, I'm not going to play pretend with anybody. If you want to be a transgender I don't care, but slapping a penis on a woman does not make her a man. Hormone therapy does not make her a man.

So where does someone who is transgender stand with you then? If they were born female but have transitioned to a male including having sexual re-alignment surgery, which pronouns should they use? Which bathroom should they go in to?

Entire bone structure, body mass, fat displacement, head size, oh, and that pesky DNA.

You cannot change your make.

Hormone replacement therapy can though. It changes how your body fat is distributed (I mean...you can literally grow breasts if you're MtF) and, if started before puberty has fully finished, can apparently adjust bone structure to some degree (although research is still being done about the effect of HRT on bones)
 
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And that's going to change your entire DNA?

It always disappoints me to see such rigid thinking. No one is playing pretend. Who they are is who they tell me they are. If someone tells me they prefer a certain set of pronouns, I use them. If someone tells me they have a new name, I use it. I do it for two reasons. First is simple decency. Second is that it costs me nothing. It does not cost me my dignity to address a person they way they want to be addressed. If anything, it adds to the dignity and self-worth of the person I'm addressing, and my own as well.
I didn't say I won't call Brett Betty.
I'm saying I won't call Brett/Betty a woman.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to just never refer to a person as he or she.

It depends on what you mean when you say "man". If you mean y chromosome, ok yea you're right. If you mean conform to a series of male stereotypes, I'm not with you.



"Men" come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. That includes bone structure, body mass, fat displacement, head size, even DNA.



That depends on what you mean by "make". If you mean a series of stereotypes associated with a particular set of chromosomes, I'm not with you. If you mean your chromosomes, I'm on board.



I agree with all of that. It's the part where they insist when they start to look hypocritical to me.
Well luckily not a single thing I mentioned was a stereotype of behavior.

I was trying to avoid the car analogy, but my point in a nutshell is that slapping some body panels and undercarriage on a Dodge Neon doesn't make it a Viper.
Even if I replace the engine, transmission, entire exterior and undercarriage, it's still a Neon.

Also, I think it's worth everyone noting that we're using low percentage rarities to try to redefine all of this.

I think a lot of this new era acceptance is great. Girls don't have to play with dolls, boys can wear pink, and people can please themselves as they wish.

-But- None of that is asking all of society to play pretend.

If that's the case (I can't recall what the research on this came up with) then surely we should be helping them, not making their lives as difficult as possible?
Playing into someones delerious fantasy is help?
Is that how we help people with mental problems? Just go along with whatever they say and want?

What about after we play pretend and they realize that it's not real?
What about the suicidal depression that follows that?

Or do we just do what feels good now, put a smile on their face and the suicide is their problem not ours?



So where does someone who is transgender stand with you then? If they were born female but have transitioned to a male including having sexual re-alignment surgery, which pronouns should they use? Which bathroom should they go in to?
A victim.
I see them as a victim of a society that allows them to divulge so far into a fantasy that they risk their own health taking it farther, only to eventually figure it all out.

What ever happened to being comfortable in your own skin, and loving yourself for who you are?

Oh, that requires mental health, isn't a band-aid fix and doesn't generate as much money.

Hormone replacement therapy can though. It changes how your body fat is distributed (I mean...you can literally grow breasts if you're MtF) and, if started before puberty has fully finished, can apparently adjust bone structure to some degree (although research is still being done about the effect of HRT on bones)
Yes, you can risk life and limb to become a modified version that still isn't what you want, nor is what you naturally, actually are.

I can't wait to hear how science is going to make men produce eggs before they're born!
 
Playing into someones delerious fantasy is help?
Is that how we help people with mental problems? Just go along with whatever they say and want?

It's not a delirious fantasy when transitioning is proven to alleviate dysphoria in most cases. Whatever the solution is the best answer we have currently is to allow people to transition, so they become happy with their life, the dysphoria is alleviated and it doesn't affect the rest of society. I don't really see what the problem is. It's a treatment and it works effectively.

What about after we play pretend and they realize that it's not real?
What about the suicidal depression that follows that?

Or do we just do what feels good now, put a smile on their face and the suicide is their problem not ours?

By saying "they realise it's not real" you're assuming that one day every transgender person is going to suddenly change their minds. This doesn't happen very frequently (although it has happened).

A victim.
I see them as a victim of a society that allows them to divulge so far into a fantasy that they risk their own health taking it farther, only to eventually figure it all out.

That doesn't answer my question though; transgender people exist and they need to be able to live their lives so what should they be doing about things like visiting the bathroom and using pronouns?

What ever happened to being comfortable in your own skin, and loving yourself for who you are?

Nothing happened to that, there's still the chance that a lot of people are happy with who they are. But if you're suffering from dysphoria then you literally can't feel comfortable in your own skin. You can't just think your way out of it.

Oh, that requires mental health, isn't a band-aid fix and doesn't generate as much money.

In what way does generating money come into this?

Yes, you can risk life and limb to become a modified version that still isn't what you want, nor is what you naturally, actually are.

For trans people it IS what they want. That's why they transition. They are also confident that they ARE the person they transition into being. Hence the term "assigned [gender] at birth". Saying someone "used to be a man/woman" is offensive to many trans folk.

I can't wait to hear how science is going to make men produce eggs before they're born!

Why is producing eggs a qualifier for anything? Sex is determined by different things to gender.
 
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I didn't say I won't call Brett Betty.
I'm saying I won't call Brett/Betty a woman.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to just never refer to a person as he or she.

Not that your 'fix' for your 'problem' is offensive but I'm always wondering, if you'd refer to a MtF as she, she looks female you know, what harm would that do to yoy society or anyone. If the answer is nothing why does it matter? Not too important just something I never understood.

avoid the car analogy, but my point in a nutshell is that slapping some body panels and undercarriage on a Dodge Neon doesn't make it a Viper.
Even if I replace the engine, transmission, entire exterior and undercarriage, it's still a Neon.


This is a ship of theseus question. And the answer is heavily debated. I believe they've changed if you take a daewoo and a viper and slowely but surely start replacing all daewoo parts with the viper parts at a certain point that deawoo becomes a viper you can still call it a daewoo but it defeats all purpose of naming it as it no longer described what you mean by a daewoo.

I think a lot of this new era acceptance is great. Girls don't have to play with dolls, boys can wear pink, and people can please themselves as they wish.

-But- None of that is asking all of society to play pretend.

Who's asking you to pretend anything? A person looks female feels female but was originaly a male would be reffered to as she. Not doing that is playing pretend.

Playing into someones delerious fantasy is help?
Is that how we help people with mental problems? Just go along with whatever they say and want?

First of proof it's a delussion on the same.level as standard bodydismorphia. If that's not the case your argument is invalid as that is the premise JP and Shapiro use ;)

If not explain to me why you think they are delussional.

What about after we play pretend and they realize that it's not real?
What about the suicidal depression that follows that?

Or do we just do what feels good now, put a smile on their face and the suicide is their problem not ours?

Do you have a refrence to show these people comit suicide as much after reassignment surgery as before.

I won't accept the JP or Shapiro vid they've lied about this before.

And you're an ass for suggesting we/I don't care for that suicide is a very sensitive topic having lost multiple friends to it and mr myself going to a psych to learn and.deal with this.

A victim.
I see them as a victim of a society that allows them to divulge so far into a fantasy that they risk their own health taking it farther, only to eventually figure it all out.

What ever happened to being comfortable in your own skin, and loving yourself for who you are?

Oh, that requires mental health, isn't a band-aid fix and doesn't generate as much money.

Yes that's why, money...
Keeping these people in a state of bad mental health would be way more profitable wouldn't it?


Yes, you can risk life and limb to become a modified version that still isn't what you want, nor is what you naturally, actually are.

This last sentence, you make an assumption I do not agree with. You assume there is only natural you, as in there can't be a discrepancy between what you psychologically feel, or how you perceive the world, and you physical form.


Sorry for typo's, these phones you know.

Edit: Tree'd on some points :P
 
You actually explained my confusion a lot better. For me saying you are neither male/female is basically stating you are not human. I did exaggerate the example to explain my own views. But all in all you have been helpfull to help me understand the idea behind being gender neutral or non-binary. Thanks!
You need to separate gender and biological sex.

The later (biological sex) is what you are born with (and is not as simple as just male / female), the former is how each of us learn and chose how to social identify across the male female scale (and many other factors).

and that pesky DNA.
Which being pesky is not as cut and dried as you're suggesting here, with it being possible for people to carry both male and female (and other XX and XY combinations) DNA.

Its a well documented (and not as uncommon as many think) genetic fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,XX/46,XY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(genetics)

It still amazes me how many people still forget that the genetics and human development is simply not that simple or straightforward, and that all men carry female chromosomes (you can't get rid of that X no matter how hard you try) and we all have nipples.

YY as a combination is simply not viable, however many others are, including for example XYY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
 
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(Aimless Rant)

Nobody cares.

Let me explain it better.

Nobody cares what gender you identify with best, if your feelings match reality, nobody cares.

I don't understand this argument. Transgender individuals are literally banned from the United States military. People do "care" how people identify, but unfortunately many of those that "care" do so with prejudice.
 
You need to separate gender and biological sex.

The later (biological sex) is what you are born with (and is not as simple as just male / female), the former is how each of us learn and chose how to social identify across the male female scale (and many other factors).

I understand the difference now. The way I understand it now is if for example someone is biologically human, but claims he is a lion. That person choses to identify as a Lion. If that identity does not offend or hurt anyone people, it should be ok to be a Lion.

This is quite controversial though. People that are from 1 ethnic minority identifying with another is often frowned upon. Like for example a white person from european descent, claiming he/she is african american. Biologically he/she is european descent, but he/she identifies with african american culture etc. Would that be ok?
 
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