Transgender Thread.

[zzz_pt]

I don't think so. I think sports will move toward classifying gender not based on how someone identifies or feels they should classify or label or bin their personality, but instead based on their actual body, and how it developed. What gender you identify with has absolutely nothing to do with what gender you should be competing against in sports. There are weight classes in boxing (within a gender) for example. Whether you "feel" like a featherweight has nothing to do with whether you're competing in heavy.

I get that point, but we don't see HW fighters saying they "feel" like they're LW and everyone pandering to feelings and identity politics. With gender the situation is not the same. Everyone wants to respect what other people feel and think of themselves (which is a good principle) but that clashes with the fairness of the sport, in this case women's sports.

All we've seen from Olympic Committees and similar governing bodies is not going towards your idea, which raises other problems. We know people from Ethiopia, Quenia, etc have developed different physical capabilities that allow them to run longer distances compared to people from other parts of the world, regardless of their similar training. Would we have marathons for africans and marathons for asians? Or 100 dash for black people and 100 dash for white or asian people? Because there are differences between these people at birth that can't be overcome with exercise, practice, better training routines, etc. I don't think any of these differences though compare to the ones we see with MtF athletes,

Weight is a clear cut, objective boundary. But even that brings its own problems with fighters basically dihidrating to unhealthy states just to get into lower classes. Still better than having no weight classes ofc.

 

[ryzno]

Whether you "feel" like a featherweight has nothing to do with competing in heavy.

What are the chances you'll find a woman that's 6'4" 240lbs that can fight a man of the same size and have a chance?
Them guys are hitting way harder than feather/lightweight fighters.

 

[Danoff]

I get that point, but we don't see LW fighters saying they "feel" like they're HW and everyone pandering to feelings and identity politics. With gender the situation is not the same. Everyone wants to respect what other people feel and think of themselves (which is a good principle) but that clashes with the fairness of the sport, in this case women's sports.

All we've seen from Olympic Committees and similar governing bodies is not going towards your idea, which raises other problems.

Yea I'm not saying that it's headed that way right now, but I think it will. It think it will have to. When you start seeing entire podiums, and all of the world records set by MtF athletes, something will have to give. If there is to be any point in having a women's classification, it should prevent that from happening.

If it doesn't happen, female-born athletes will stop trying.

 

[TexRex]

Having MtF athletes competing against women are what people, including some of those women, criticize. Because people who develop as men, have natural physical advantages over women.

You know who should complain about that? Those actually being bested by such individuals.

Taking action would be better than complaining, though, and those who have an issue with it should withdraw their support of sanctioning entities by declining to compete, and if there's nobody to compete in a sport, there's no sport to spectate which translates directly to lost advertising revenue.

The problem with such a course of action means those objecting lose sponsorship deals and possibly even salary (for those who get paid directly for competing) before anything happens, and their income is more of a concern than their stance on social issues.

I suppose these sanctioning bodies are responding to the prospect of lost revenue as well in their decision to allow trans athletes to compete against those with whom they identify, because failure to permit such competition means those who object to prohibition of certain competitors will rally likeminded individuals to stop supporting the competition through viewership.

 

[zzz_pt]

Yea I'm not saying that it's headed that way right now, but I think it will. It think it will have to. When you start seeing entire podiums, and all of the world records set by MtF athletes, something will have to give. If there is to be any point in having a women's classification, it should prevent that from happening.

If it doesn't happen, female-born athletes will stop trying.

Then I agree with you. But things will probably hit low before turning around.

You know who should complain about that? Those actually being bested by such individuals.

Taking action would be better than complaining, though, and those who have an issue with it should withdraw their support of sanctioning entities by declining to compete, and if there's nobody to compete in a sport, there's no sport to spectate which translates directly to lost advertising revenue.

The problem with such a course of action means those objecting lose sponsorship deals and possibly even salary (for those who get paid directly for competing) before anything happens, and their income is more of a concern than their stance on social issues.

I suppose these sanctioning bodies are responding to the prospect of lost revenue as well in their decision to allow trans athletes to compete against those with whom they identify, because failure to permit such competition means those who object to prohibition of certain competitors will rally likeminded individuals to stop supporting the competition through viewership.

When they do talk about it, they're accused of being transphobic. Just a few months ago, a female ciclist who finished in 3rd behind another women and a MtF (who won), came out saying she thought it was unfair for women to compete against MtF athletes... Guess what? Less than 48h she had to apologize to the harrassing MOB of the internet.

She's not the only one. Whoever makes their voices heard is shut down as a transphobic and a bad loser.

 

[Danoff]

You know who should complain about that? Those actually being bested by such individuals.

Taking action would be better than complaining, though, and those who have an issue with it should withdraw their support of sanctioning entities by declining to compete, and if there's nobody to compete in a sport, there's no sport to spectate which translates directly to lost advertising revenue.

The problem with such a course of action means those objecting lose sponsorship deals and possibly even salary (for those who get paid directly for competing) before anything happens, and their income is more of a concern than their stance on social issues.

I suppose these sanctioning bodies are responding to the prospect of lost revenue as well in their decision to allow trans athletes to compete against those with whom they identify, because failure to permit such competition means those who object to prohibition of certain competitors will rally likeminded individuals to stop supporting the competition through viewership.

I agree that it's market driven, and it's why I think things will go the way I do. But I don't think that it's impossible for the rest of us to weigh in with common sense on what the solution to this non-problem should be. And I don't think we should ask a generation of female-born athletes to sacrifice their goals, ambitions, and training in order to demonstrate.

Your personality does not determine your weight class... that's it. That's the beginning and end of the "dilemma" here.

 

[TexRex]

When they do talk about it, they're accused of being transphobic.

Then they should push back against the notion instead of staying silent.

Less than 48h she had to apologize to the harrassing MOB of the internet.

Nope. Refer to what I said about being concerned about income, specifically the prospect of lost income. She decided to apologize.

But I don't think that it's impossible for the rest of us to weigh in with common sense on what the solution to this non-problem should be.

Sure, sure...but then you run the risk of being labeled a keyboard warrior by those so inclined.

But calling it a "non-problem" doesn't exactly help. It's something that needs to be addressed.

The solution may well be absolute objectivity, prohibiting competitors who don't meet the requirement that they be born a certain sex. And that's fine, because prohibition by sanctioning bodies of competitors that don't meet requirements leads to the creation of sanctioning bodies that permit those competitors or alternate classification in an effort to level the playing field.

 

[Danoff]

Sure, sure...but then you run the risk of being labeled a keyboard warrior by those so inclined.

If I took to the streets in protest of every single bit of stupidity, injustice, or misguided attempt at benevolence, I'd never come back. I've got time to comment on it in a few circles, but this not my first priority.

But calling it a "non-problem" doesn't exactly help. It's something that needs to be addressed.

The solution may well be absolute objectivity, prohibiting competitors who don't meet the requirement that they be born a certain sex. And that's fine, because prohibition by sanctioning bodies of competitors that don't meet requirements leads to the creation of sanctioning bodies that permit those competitors or alternate classification in an effort to level the playing field.

I just want to understand what you're saying here... because if I'm following what you just wrote, you think that preventing MtF athletes from competing against women would be not level. In other words, doing that would require leveling.

 

[ryzno]

Sure, sure...but then you run the risk of being labeled a keyboard warrior by those so inclined.

He sure does spend a lot of time in your head... You must like him or something...

 

[zzz_pt]

Then they should push back against the notion instead of staying silent.


Nope. Refer to what I said about being concerned about income, specifically the prospect of lost income. She decided to apologize.


Sure, sure...but then you run the risk of being labeled a keyboard warrior by those so inclined.

But calling it a "non-problem" doesn't exactly help. It's something that needs to be addressed.

The solution may well be absolute objectivity, prohibiting competitors who don't meet the requirement that they be born a certain sex. And that's fine, because prohibition by sanctioning bodies of competitors that don't meet requirements leads to the creation of sanctioning bodies that permit those competitors or alternate classification in an effort to level the playing field.

Easier said than done. Of course she decided that. Not everyone has the profile to be harrassed for speaking their minds against political correctness despite being one of the best in her field. Easier to shut up. You see that everywhere. Most people risk too much if they speak up their mind at the moment.

 

[TexRex]

If I took to the streets in protest of every single bit of stupidity, injustice, or misguided attempt at benevolence, I'd never come back. I've got time to comment on it in a few circles, but this not my first priority.

And you brave certain risks in either venture.

I just want to understand what you're saying here... because if I'm following what you just wrote, you think that preventing MtF athletes from competing against women would be not level. In other words, doing that would require leveling.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that addressing the matter by excluding participants who don't meet requirements may well result in the excluded competing against one another, either under the supervision of the same sanctioning body but in a different category or under the supervision of another sanctioning body.

He sure does spend a lot of time in your head... You must like him or something...

I take issue with that particular individual's numerous tactics employed to suppress the opinions of those with whom he disagrees; attack those who have opinions that run contrary to yours instead of addressing the opinions themselves, and maybe such contradictory opinions will be withheld. In an effort to affect change, I've chosen to speak out against these tactics.

It just so happens that your opinions are more likely to align with his than those of whom he attacks, so you've opted to join in on the fun by baiting instead of addressing the tactics, either in favor of or in opposition to.

Easier said than done. Of course she decided that. Not everyone has the profile to be harrassed for speaking their minds against political correctness despite being one of the best in her field. Easier to shut up. You see that everywhere. Most people risk too much if they speak up their mind at the moment.

Yep, it's easier to knuckle under...but then nothing changes.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that addressing the matter by excluding participants who don't meet requirements may well result in the excluded competing against one another, either under the supervision of the same sanctioning body but in a different category or under the supervision of another sanctioning body.

Ok, I'm not sure where you're going with that but yes... presumably MtF individuals should compete against men for example. And FtM should compete against women for example.

 

[ryzno]

so you've opted to join in on the fun by baiting instead of addressing the tactics, either in favor of or in opposition to.

I did ask Danoff what I thought was a legit question everyone ignored. So yeah I'm done trying to talk.

 

[Danoff]

I did ask Danoff what I thought was a legit question everyone ignored. So yeah I'm done trying to talk.

Sorry I didn't answer your question, I didn't understand the point. Why would anyone expect a female boxer to be able to compete with a male boxer in the same weight class? Why would anyone expect a female athlete to be able to compete with a male athlete in pretty much any athletic competition. Men are generally better athletes. Gymnastics and particular distances for swimming events are the only ones I've seen cited where women seem to have a natural advantage.

If women could go toe to toe with men at boxing, I think all of history would be a little different.

But of course, that wasn't my point. My point was that MtF athletes are at an unfair advantage due to the athletic benefits that are conferred with male physiology. So my point is that MtF boxers should not be beating up individuals who were born women in the ring.

That, confused and generally unhelpful response to your post, is why I skipped it.

 

[TexRex]

Ok, I'm not sure where you're going with that but yes... presumably MtF individuals should compete against men for example. And FtM should compete against women for example.

It's not a "non-problem", the fact that it's being discussed is an indication of that--that's where I am and have been going since I said:

But calling it a "non-problem" doesn't exactly help. It's something that needs to be addressed.

Honestly, I like the idea that it's coming to a head, because I'm not happy with such a heavy emphasis on monetary gain. Concern for the bottom line is what I believe has in the past led the NFL to address issues like domestic violence in a manner that I'm not satisfied with, because bumping players entirely may well affect viewership and corresponding revenues...but hopefully Kareem Hunt's firing signals a change.

I have no doubt an equilibrium will be found, though, and while I don't know what it will be, I'm sure someone's going to be unhappy with it.

I did ask Danoff what I thought was a legit question everyone ignored. So yeah I'm done trying to talk.

What?

 

[Danoff]

It's not a "non-problem", the fact that it's being discussed is an indication of that-

"Non-problem" meaning there isn't an actual dilemma, just a manufactured one by confused people.

 

[zzz_pt]

Open Letter to the International Olympic Committee by Ana Paula Henkel

Abreu started playing men’s volleyball at age 17 as Rodrigo Abreu, competing at men’s professional league level. After starting to identify as a women in 2012 and changing names to Tiffany, Abreu started playing in the women’s professional league in 2017. In less that a month, Abreu was scoring the highest number of points a game on average and then beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39.

Few elite athletes speak up about the obvious unfairness and adverse impact on female sportswomen. However, 4 times Olympian for Brazilian Volleyball and bronze medal winner Ana Paula Henkel (now Connelly) has bravely spoken up and written a powerful open letter to the IOC.



Spurce: https://fairplayforwomen.com/ana_paula_henkel/

 

[TexRex]

"Non-problem" meaning there isn't an actual dilemma, just a manufactured one by confused people.

Who's confused? How did they manufacture the not an actual dilemma?

 

[Danoff]

Open Letter to the International Olympic Committee by Ana Paula Henkel

Abreu started playing men’s volleyball at age 17 as Rodrigo Abreu, competing at men’s professional league level. After starting to identify as a women in 2012 and changing names to Tiffany, Abreu started playing in the women’s professional league in 2017. In less that a month, Abreu was scoring the highest number of points a game on average and then beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39.

Few elite athletes speak up about the obvious unfairness and adverse impact on female sportswomen. However, 4 times Olympian for Brazilian Volleyball and bronze medal winner Ana Paula Henkel (now Connelly) has bravely spoken up and written a powerful open letter to the IOC.



Spurce: https://fairplayforwomen.com/ana_paula_henkel/

I completely agree with her letter. It was well written.

Who's confused? How did they manufacture the not an actual dilemma?

I think you know the answers to those questions, so I think all you're doing is looking for an opening here. But I'll answer them anyway... the confusion is to wonder whether MtF athletes should compete in the men's group or the women's (and the confused party is generally the governing body of the particular sport). The manufactured dilemma is to wonder whether someone's personality, their gender identity, how they classify their mind, should take precedence over their biology in the case of sports.

 

[Lizard]

That's some curious wording.

Having MtF athletes competing against women are what people, including some of those women, criticize. Because people who develop as men, have natural physical advantages over women.

The opposite is not such a big issue because the consequences are not impactful in the results of the sports.

In 100 years (as in the future), with the number of MtF athletes increasing, you'll see all records set by women being broken by people who were born men and made the transition MtF. You will not see the same the other way around.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's not just sports though, the toilet issue was all focused on trans women going into the woman's bathroom whilst no one cared about the opposite.

 

[TexRex]

I think you know the answers to those questions, so I think all you're doing is looking for an opening here. But I'll answer them anyway... the confusion is to wonder whether MtF athletes should compete in the men's group or the women's. The manufactured dilemma is to wonder whether someone's personality, their gender identity, how they classify their mind, should take precedence over their biology in the case of sports.

I'm really just trying to figure out what you're basing comments on. It isn't that farfetched to think those in transition are confused, but then the sanctioning bodies permitting trans athlets to compete against non-trans athletes that are significantly outclassed can be seen as confused also.

 

[ryzno]

What?

What's the what for?
I misunderstood him and asked a question. I got an answer and gave him a like. Don't start trying to break down my grammar. He understood me that all that matters to me.

 

[Danoff]

I'm really just trying to figure out what you're basing comments on. It isn't that farfetched to think those in transition are confused, but then the sanctioning bodies permitting trans athlets to compete against non-trans athletes that are significantly outclassed can be seen as confused also.

Yes I did not mean to say that the athletes were confused. Even if you didn't think that, it's fair to ask me to clarify for the sake of others reading who might have.

 

[TexRex]

What's the what for?
I misunderstood him and asked a question. I got an answer and gave him a like. Don't start trying to break down my grammar. He understood me that all that matters to me.

That doesn't explain this:

He sure does spend a lot of time in your head... You must like him or something...

Which is peculiar, because I commented on the above and you responded with the comment that led me to ask "what".

Edit:

Yes I did not mean to say that the athletes were confused. Even if you didn't think that, it's fair to ask me to clarify for the sake of others reading who might have.

Okay, so I gather that you did mean the sanctioning bodies are confused? Is that to say that they manufactured the dilemma by permitting trans athletes to compete against non-trans athletes?

I'm inclined to believe this is what you're suggesting, but please clarify if that isn't the case.

 

[Danoff]

Okay, so I gather that you did mean the sanctioning bodies are confused?

Yes.

Is that to say that they manufactured the dilemma by permitting trans athletes to compete against non-trans athletes?

I'm inclined to believe this is what you're suggesting, but please clarify if that isn't the case.

No. I think that athletes should compete according to their chromosomes.

Ok, I'm not sure where you're going with that but yes... presumably MtF individuals should compete against men for example. And FtM should compete against women for example.

Their personality has zero to do with their athletic group. And beyond that I would say that their life choices, when it comes to altering their hormones, has zero to do with their athletic group either unless for some reason that governing body has rules against performance enhancements and the hormones constitute a performance enhancement. For example FtM athletes who may have taken testosterone supplements.

...and by the way.... I'll add that transgender folks sometimes shoot themselves in the foot by hiding their birth gender from their doctors. If you're unconscious, and you need particular medication or bloodwork to determine your state of health, the attending doctor does not care whether you align more with typical female stereotypes or male stereotypes, and it has zero to do with what medication you should receive. What is needed is an accurate medical record, not a medical record which attempts to reflect what you feel like it should state.

The physical nature of your body is a reality. It is what it is. You can alter it, yes, but only so much, and its state is then "altered" in that way. You cannot go back and be reborn in the physical state that you feel should match your mind any more than I can go back and be reborn with bigger muscles or longer legs. My physiology, yours, and every human being's, as it was born, is a fact of our lives. It's not something to be run from, but to be embraced. Some people are born with genetic defects, such as a malformed palate or a missing or fused hand or foot. That is not something for them to run from either, it's something to be embraced. No matter how they feel, they must work with reality. That's not to say that corrective surgery or hormone supplements or cosmetic surgery or any other sort of alteration isn't justified or warranted. It's to say that how you were born is a fact, and not something to be ashamed of or even to take pride in. It's something that none of us had any control over. We have the genetic hand we were dealt. Play it to the best of your abilities, but remember that you can't change what it was then. It's part of who you are.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sports bodies saying that it is unfair for people with two legs to compete against people with one, or for people who were born men to compete against people who were born women.

 

[ryzno]

That doesn't explain this:


Which is peculiar, because I commented on the above and you responded with the comment that led me to ask "what".

Edit:


Okay, so I gather that you did mean the sanctioning bodies are confused? Is that to say that they manufactured the dilemma by permitting trans athletes to compete against non-trans athletes?

I'm inclined to believe this is what you're suggesting, but please clarify if that isn't the case.

Yeah I did join in on the "fun". His post had nothing to do with yours or Danoff convo except the fact you want to use him as an example for whatever reason. You could've easily answered Danoff without brining up JP but it never fails for you to use a user you don't like as an example. And of course you didn't quote him, so if he isn't inclined to click your link or read your post(for whatever reason) he'd never know you were using him as an example to respond or report you.
I'm not going to speak on Danoffs behalf but I'm pretty sure he knows what a keyboard warrior is and as I've pointed out to you before we know everyone's posting habits. We don't need to be reminded every week or 2 you don't like JPs posting style. WE GET IT!
I find actions like that rude. I don't report anything but spam bots. I called you out so he could have the opportunity to respond to you or report you using him as an example.
Whiteknighting maybe, but I'll let who I consider my friends know the are being mocked.
My point stands you like using him as an example and I believe it's cause you don't like him.
I don't see people going way into your post history to prove a point.
I might have missed something since yesterday but please show me where he's called anyone a keyboard warrior since this specific debate started the other day. I'll gladly remove this post if I'm wrong.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I was once into the strength training/powerlifting scene so I've paid some attention to Janae Kroc formerly known as Matt Kroc, a legend in the 220 lb powerlifting class who once held the combined bench/squat/deadlift world record at 2551 pounds. He transitioned to female a couple of years ago in his 40's and is now 46. Janae has chosen not to compete as a woman in powerlifting for fear of the negative attention it will bring to the transgender community. Based on some of the numbers I've seen, there isn't a woman on the planet that would come close to her lifting potential even at age 46.

 

[TexRex]

No. I think that athletes should compete according to their chromosomes.



Their personality has zero to do with their athletic group. And beyond that I would say that their life choices, when it comes to altering their hormones, has zero to do with their athletic group either unless for some reason that governing body has rules against performance enhancements and the hormones constitute a performance enhancement. For example FtM athletes who may have taken testosterone supplements.

...and by the way.... I'll add that transgender folks sometimes shoot themselves in the foot by hiding their birth gender from their doctors. If you're unconscious, and you need particular medication or bloodwork to determine your state of health, the attending doctor does not care whether you align more with typical female stereotypes or male stereotypes, and it has zero to do with what medication you should receive. What is needed is an accurate medical record, not a medical record which attempts to reflect what you feel like it should state.

The physical nature of your body is a reality. It is what it is. You can alter it, yes, but only so much, and its state is then "altered" in that way. You cannot go back and be reborn in the physical state that you feel should match your mind any more than I can go back and be reborn with bigger muscles or longer legs. My physiology, yours, and every human being's, as it was born, is a fact of our lives. It's not something to be run from, but to be embraced. Some people are born with genetic defects, such as a malformed palate or a missing or fused hand or foot. That is not something for them to run from either, it's something to be embraced. No matter how they feel, they must work with reality. That's not to say that corrective surgery or hormone supplements or cosmetic surgery or any other sort of alteration isn't justified or warranted. It's to say that how you were born is a fact, and not something to be ashamed of or even to take pride in. It's something that none of us had any control over. We have the genetic hand we were dealt. Play it to the best of your abilities, but remember that you can't change what it was then. It's part of who you are.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sports bodies saying that it is unfair for people with two legs to compete against people with one, or for people who were born men to compete against people who were born women.

If an individual's sex can't be determined as a condition of their participation and they indeed attempt to conceal it for an unfair advantage, the sanctioning body shouldn't bear the full weight of the issue, but there have been a number of openly trans athletes as of late that have gained notoriety for their success...can't the finger be pointed at the sanctioning bodies for permitting their participation?

Those sanctioning bodies have no difficulty ruling performance-enhancing substances as inappropriate and prohibiting users of those substances from participating because the use is likely to provide an unfair advantage. This should be similarly straightforward, but until more emphasis is put on the competition itself than money, it's too easily manipulated by fear of lost profits.

I'll let who I consider my friends know the are being mocked.

Yeah, no...see, I was the one being labeled a keyboard warrior in the post that I linked. I made a point to cite a post wherein the abuse was directed at me.

But I acknowledge that my propensity to point out another's frequent abusive remarks isn't exactly conducive to polite discussion.

 

[TexRex]

Sincere apologies for engaging in the behavior that I've chosen. I intend to make a genuine effort to not repeat this behavior for the benefit of the community and I understand and accept the consequences that may result from continuing down that path.

 

[Danoff]

If an individual's sex can't be determined as a condition of their participation and they indeed attempt to conceal it for an unfair advantage, the sanctioning body shouldn't bear the full weight of the issue, but there have been a number of openly trans athletes as of late that have gained notoriety for their success...can't the finger be pointed at the sanctioning bodies for permitting their participation?

Those sanctioning bodies have no difficulty ruling performance-enhancing substances as inappropriate and prohibiting users of those substances from participating because the use is likely to provide an unfair advantage. This should be similarly straightforward, but until more emphasis is put on the competition itself than money, it's too easily manipulated by fear of lost profits.

Yea I think that the sanctioning body does bear responsibility for the integrity of the sport. Ultimately it's what they want to create. If they want to create a boxing league that includes individuals born female competing against individuals born male, that's their prerogative. I'd hope that there wouldn't be too many people who would sign up to compete in that league, but I'm under no illusions about the fact that they'd have competitors. So far there hasn't been much of a market for that (at least not in sports, one could argue that certain kinds of porn head that direction).

I don't have a ton of respect for an athlete who uses an unfair advantage to win. But I also know for certain that they will, because the desire to win is a big part of what makes them great. Tom Brady comes to mind.