Transgender Thread.

[Novalee]

Trans people have brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain,” Guillamon says. “It is simplistic to say that a female-to-male transgender person is a female trapped in a male body. It's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain.” Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

A interesting article .

led by psychobiologist Antonio Guillamon of the National Distance Education University in Madrid and neuropsychologist Carme Junqu Plaja of the University of Barcelona—used MRI to examine the brains of 24 female-to-males and 18 male-to-females—both before and after treatment with cross-sex hormones. Their results, published in 2013, showed that even before treatment the brain structures of the trans people were more similar in some respects to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their natal gender. For example, the female-to-male subjects had relatively thin subcortical areas (these areas tend to be thinner in men than in women). Male-to-female subjects tended to have thinner cortical regions in the right hemisphere, which is characteristic of a female brain. (Such differences became more pronounced after treatment.)

It appears to be a peer reviewed study

 

[PocketZeven]

Trans people have brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain,” Guillamon says. “It is simplistic to say that a female-to-male transgender person is a female trapped in a male body. It's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain.” Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

A interesting article .

led by psychobiologist Antonio Guillamon of the National Distance Education University in Madrid and neuropsychologist Carme Junqu Plaja of the University of Barcelona—used MRI to examine the brains of 24 female-to-males and 18 male-to-females—both before and after treatment with cross-sex hormones. Their results, published in 2013, showed that even before treatment the brain structures of the trans people were more similar in some respects to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their natal gender. For example, the female-to-male subjects had relatively thin subcortical areas (these areas tend to be thinner in men than in women). Male-to-female subjects tended to have thinner cortical regions in the right hemisphere, which is characteristic of a female brain. (Such differences became more pronounced after treatment.)

It appears to be a peer reviewed study

I am always highly sceptical with such studies. It wasnt long ago there was "proof" that white people were more intelligent and evolved then "other races".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

 

[Novalee]

The difference is one appears to be peer reviewed while your example was an opinion presented as fact . Which everyone except some few fools believed.

It is like alex jones proclaiming lizard people run the govt.



My opinion is i think most the push back is based on made up god or gods . Nothing more .

 

[PocketZeven]

The difference is one appears to be peer reviewed while your example was an opinion presented as fact . Which everyone except some few fools believed.

It is like alex jones proclaiming lizard people run the govt.



My opinion is i think most the push back is based on made up god or gods . Nothing more .

I understand your opinion. However there is not enough data to corroborate their findings in the article.

 

[Novalee]

The study, which also included psychologists from from Oxford University and the University of Massachusetts Amherst, split kids up into three groups. There were the children who had "socially transitioned" (that is, had changed their gender pronouns, the gendered way they dress or wear their hair, and their name); children who conformed to the gender they had at birth; and children who were gender-nonconforming in some way. The kids in the third group all had some degree of interest in toys, clothing or behaviour usually associated with the opposite sex than the one they were assigned at birth.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/01/16/trans-kids-gender-identity-study_a_23644416/


Here is another study stating kids as young as three understand what gender they are or are not .

 

[PocketZeven]

The study, which also included psychologists from from Oxford University and the University of Massachusetts Amherst, split kids up into three groups. There were the children who had "socially transitioned" (that is, had changed their gender pronouns, the gendered way they dress or wear their hair, and their name); children who conformed to the gender they had at birth; and children who were gender-nonconforming in some way. The kids in the third group all had some degree of interest in toys, clothing or behaviour usually associated with the opposite sex than the one they were assigned at birth.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2019/01/16/trans-kids-gender-identity-study_a_23644416/


Here is another study stating kids as young as three understand what gender they are or are not .

As a guy with both a boy and a girl. It surprised me how a lot of gender related behavior came naturally to them. I used to think a lot of behavior was teached to them from their environment and parents, but even at a very young age specific behavior came natural to them. I have no knowledge how it would be with lgbtq from experience, but I am openminded that it is possible that LGBT are born the way they are.

However I still have trouble to understand genderneutrals or non-binary people who arent intersex (or hermaphrodite) biologically. Is it just a trend? Like in the 70's androgyny was?

 

[Novalee]

However I still have trouble to understand genderneutrals or non-binary people who arent intersex (or hermaphrodite) biologically. Is it just a trend? Like in the 70's androgyny was?

I dont really understand it either but it seems to exist.

 

[PocketZeven]

I dont really understand it either but it seems to exist.

To be clear I am speaking about the people who are not biologically intersex.

But I also dont want to be sexist, but on the surface it just seems to be a "fashion" trend of people not wanting to be "non-conformist". Like grunge, androgyny, goth etc. in the past.

 

[G.T.Ace]

that it is possible that LGBT are born the way they are.

It's not just "possible", it's a fact.

However I still have trouble to understand genderneutrals or non-binary people who arent intersex (or hermaphrodite) biologically. Is it just a trend?

It's not a trend, it's just that the whole topic becomes more widely known and at least some basic acceptance helps people to open up about it.

 

[PocketZeven]

It's not just "possible", it's a fact.

It's not a trend, it's just that the whole topic becomes more widely known and at least some basic acceptance helps people to open up about it.

I wouldnt say it is a fact yet. It isnt possible to prove a baby is LGBTQ from birth.

Dont get me wrong, because I am for LGBTQ rights. I just feel non-binary/genderneutrals (non biological) are just riding a trend. They either just dont want to be mainstream and be "unique" or they are people who have socially transitioned and still arent satisfied who they are. To me claiming to be genderneutral is just claiming you arent a human being. Gender is an essential trait of any living being. Denying that just seems inaccurate. In biology there is a distinct difference in male and female biology and even gender neutral species have distinct properties that actually do make them genderneutral physically.

 

[Tappajakoala]

Answer on topic. Three. Female, male and hermaphrodite.

People who argue there's more I would but in same basket with flat earth society and other nutters.

 

[Lizard]

I wouldnt say it is a fact yet. It isnt possible to prove a baby is LGBTQ from birth.

Dont get me wrong, because I am for LGBTQ rights. I just feel non-binary/genderneutrals (non biological) are just riding a trend. They either just dont want to be mainstream and be "unique" or they are people who have socially transitioned and still arent satisfied who they are. To me claiming to be genderneutral is just claiming you arent a human being. Gender is an essential trait of any living being. Denying that just seems inaccurate. In biology there is a distinct difference in male and female biology and even gender neutral species have distinct properties that actually do make them genderneutral physically.

This confused me for a while, but after speaking to a NB person I think I understand it.

It isn't that they have no gender at all and aren't human, it's more they fall in the middle of the scale. They aren't male and they aren't female but somewhere between the 2.

 

[PocketZeven]

This confused me for a while, but after speaking to a NB person I think I understand it.

It isn't that they have no gender at all and aren't human, it's more they fall in the middle of the scale. They aren't male and they aren't female but somewhere between the 2.

Like I stated I fully understand for someone born with both female and male genitals I understand. However there are also some who are either male or female and still claim being genderneutral or non-binary. That confuses me. You either have a penis or not. I dont mind you liking boy or girls, wanting to be a girl/boy, but not willing to be either is kinda confusing. It just doenst fall into the catagory of LGBTQ.

 

[TenEightyOne]

LGBTQ.

Q, or T.

 

[PocketZeven]

Q, or T.

Actually they define it as intersex and the correct use would be LGBTI or LGBT+ i found.

Transgender is quite clear for me. Either a male who wants to be female (or transitioning) and visa versa.

Questioning or queer, Someone still exploring and perhaps tick more then one letter of LGBT. I interpet that as someone who doesnt know yet he/she is gay or perhaps transgender.

But in all situations they acknowledge to being or wanting to be a male/female and being attracted to male/female.

 

[UKMikey]

I have the same theory. These people dont want to be "conformists". Like people who are not biologically intersex, but still claim to be non-binary or Gender neutral. That way they can feel special or unique and belong to a very small "niche" of people.

Except that flat earth can be easily be disproved by science while with intersex people the jury's still out. Unlike the disc believers, they're not claiming a massive worldwide conspiracy against them.

Not to divert from the topic, but evidence is found on their body. You have either female or male genitals or both.

I think you're confusing gender and sex. I probably am too, but I'm acknowledging that there is a difference.

 

[PocketZeven]

I think you are confusing gender and sex.

We dont have a seperate word for both in dutch. But even then the whole definition of gender as identity can be thrown away when you consider non-binary.

That said I will continue this conversation in the appropiate thread. Back to topic, I am a globe believer!

 

[PocketZeven]

I think you're confusing gender and sex. I probably am too, but I'm acknowledging that there is a difference.

Perhaps I am. There is no seperate word in my language I think, but even then non-binary defies the logic of gender identity. There is either male, female or both. Claiming there is such a thing as non-binary or gender neutral is very difficult for me to understand.

 

[Famine]

There is either male, female or both.

There's also neither - and biologically that's a lot more common than both.

 

[Populuxe]

Perhaps I am. There is no seperate word in my language I think, but even then non-binary defies the logic of gender identity. There is either male, female or both. Claiming there is such a thing as non-binary or gender neutral is very difficult for me to understand.

It seems simple enough to me. It's a sliding scale with male at one end and female at the other. Many people feel they are not at one end or the other but somewhere in between. I understand that.

 

[UKMikey]

Claiming there is such a thing as non-binary or gender neutral is very difficult for me to understand.

You could always do what the link I posted suggests and borrow our word for gender. It works fine.

 

[kikie]

We dont have a seperate word for both in dutch. But even then the whole definition of gender as identity can be thrown away when you consider non-binary.

Yes we do if I understand correctly what you mean.

Geslacht en sekse. Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

[PocketZeven]

There's also neither - and biologically that's a lot more common than both.

Perhaps I have never encountered someone in that spectrum and I am just being ignorant.

You could always do what the link I posted suggests and borrow our word for gender. It works fine.

Isnt being non-binary is actually contradicting the concept of gender as identity?

It seems simple enough to me. It's a sliding scale with male at one end and female at the other. Many people feel they are not at one end or the other but somewhere in between. I understand that.

It isnt for me. You're sex is either a male or female (or both) biologically. Or neither if you dont have genitals. You're gender is either male/female gay/lesbian/bi , or you want to be the opposite transgender. Also perhaps you are a transgender that is also gay/lesbian/bi. I presume even people that are born with no genitals identify with male or female. I can understand someone indentifying with both, but being neutral? What does that mean?

To me denyinggender is like saying I am not human, but a whole other species entity, just because I said so. It doesnt work like that. Biologically I am still human.

edit: added comment

 

[Famine]

Perhaps I have never encountered someone in that spectrum and I am just being ignorant.

The commonest phenotype of intersex is "ambiguous". The second commonest is female, which later turns out to be non-functional female. This generally only becomes apparent at puberty, because the individual looks female from the outside but with no corresponding internal organs they fail to develop at all.

The absolute rarest is the presence of both obvious male and female external structures. Full hermaphroditism - your "both" - is exceptionally unusual, because the developmental processes required to generate one set of genitals is almost completely exclusive to the other set.

And really, you're looking more at an X-Y graph than a spectrum, where X is maleness from 0 to 1 and Y is femaleness from 0 to 1.

 

[Moglet]

You're gender is either male/female gay/lesbian/bi , or you want to be the opposite transgender.

Gay/lesbian/bi are not genders, they are sexual orientations. You can be cisgender and gay just like you can be transgender and gay. Or non-binary and straight. Or gender-fluid and bi, and so on.

 

[CSLACR]

(Aimless Rant)

Nobody cares.

Let me explain it better.

Nobody cares what gender you identify with best, if your feelings match reality, nobody cares.
A colorblind man won't convince us that Red isn't real, and someone born biologically a sex won't convince people that biology is wrong.
Changing the name of something doesn't change what it actually is.


You can look how you want, feel how you want, and do what you want. Most of us really, really do not care.
What you can't do is convince everyone that rain is dry, the sun is cold, and your biology doesn't determine your biology.

If you're spending your limited time on Earth complaining you don't like the cards life dealt you, your life is going to suck. You can't demand everyone just plays pretend with you.
Teaching people that you can is dangerous and wrong, just imagine finally believing you tricked the world into thinking you are a genuine biological (man or woman) only to find out that people don't actually buy it?


Now, hermaphrodites have some wiggle room to say whatever, but people still don't care.


The long and the short of this entire subject, I think, is that lgbtq (particularly T) are looking to have straight people be attracted to them as they would everyone else.
The dream is to actually change their sex, and to be in a relationship as a normal person of the opposite sex.
So "Jane" needs a straight guy to live his/her fantasy, and "Ron" needs a straight woman to live her fantasy.
So the goal is to convince everyone that a transsexual is the same as the gender they changed to.
This is not possible without changing most of the body.

Slapping female genitals on a guy doesn't make him suddenly a pretty lady, it doesn't work like that.

 

[Moglet]

EDIT: I'm not trying to annoy or upset anyone here but the replies below are my opinions on this and it would be interesting to hear alternatives.

(Aimless Rant)

Nobody cares.

People who feel suicidal because they feel they aren't in the correct body would disagree.
People who get assaulted in bathrooms just for being transgender would disagree.

The long and the short of this entire subject, I think, is that lgbtq (particularly T) are looking to have straight people be attracted to them as they would everyone else.

What gave you this idea? I have quite a few transgender/non-binary friends and none of them want this. I don't even know where to start with the concept of lesbian or gay people wanting specifically straight people to be attracted to them.

The dream is to actually change their sex, and to be in a relationship as a normal person of the opposite sex.

The dream often is to be able to change to the opposite sex, yes, but transgender people have varying relationship needs just like everyone else. Using the term "normal" to refer to people who are cisgender heterosexuals is also hugely offensive.

So "Jane" needs a straight guy to live his/her fantasy, and "Ron" needs a straight woman to live her fantasy.

The goal is to not feel completely alienated by your own body. Sexual attraction is completely separate.

So the goal is to convince everyone that a transsexual is the same as the gender they changed to.

This is called "passing" and passing as a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth is absolutely a goal for many transgender people.

This is not possible without changing most of the body.

How do you know? Again I've met a lot of transgender people who are very effective at passing as their chosen gender.

Slapping female genitals on a guy doesn't make him suddenly a pretty lady, it doesn't work like that.

That's because genitalia don't define your looks.

 

[PocketZeven]

Gay/lesbian/bi are not genders, they are sexual orientations. You can be cisgender and gay just like you can be transgender and gay. Or non-binary and straight. Or gender-fluid and bi, and so on.

That confuses me even more. The definition I understand is to define ones gender in society to being male/female/both regardless of biological sex. But what is the logic of claiming you are none? What prevents someone to just make up a "gender"? How do you describe a non-binary? Isnt it just a feminate male, masculine female or androgynous (both). What is the difference between being non-binary and being both? In the case of androgyny in the past wasnt it just a fashion trend? In the sence of fashion being an expression of how you feel in that moment of time? Isnt it confusing if you keep changing your gender in a lifetime? In my understanding you being male/female/both biologically is sex, and you being attracted to male/female/both is sexual attraction. So wanting to be male/female/ both is gender? So being non-binary you are rejecting the notion there is male/female in the first place? Or choosing not to be one? Is gender something you choose or born with?

For example I am from chinese origin, but born in the netherlands. I dont consider myself either chinese or dutch, but both. There is no logic for me to claim I am neither. What thoughtprocess would I need to come to that conclusion? Should I make a courtcase out of it to remove my nationality of either dutch or chinese to "neutral"?

 

[Moglet]

That confuses me even more. The definition I understand is to define ones gender in society to being male/female/both regardless of biological sex. But what is the logic of claiming you are none?

Some people feel like they don't fit into any category. This isn't something I have experience of so I can't say how that might manifest itself.

What prevents someone to just make up a "gender"?

Nothing, and a lot of people who don't identify as cisgender spend years of their life trying to figure out what they are, or what "category" they fit in to.

How do you describe a non-binary? Isnt it just a feminate male, masculine female or androgynous (both).

Non-binary is a catch-all term for gender identities that aren't categorised as male or female (it's not binary, hence non-binary). It can refer to people who are genderfluid, or those who don't identify as any gender.

What is the difference between being non-binary and being both?

Non-binary can refer to being both. It's a term used to cover multiple gender identities.

In the case of androgyny in the past wasnt it just a fashion trend? In the sence of fashion being an expression of how you feel in that moment of time?

Androgyny by definition refers to having masculine and feminine characteristics together. This can refer to anything, not just fashion, however androgynous fashion has been a long standing popular concept.

Isn't it confusing if you keep changing your gender in a lifetime?

Absolutely. It's confusing and terrifying which is why I feel like we should do all we can to support anyone struggling with their identity.

In my understanding you being male/female/both biologically is sex, and you being attracted to male/female/both is sexual attraction.

Yep, although there is some blurring of the terminology when referring to people who are non-binary.

So wanting to be male/female/ both is gender? So being non-binary you are rejecting the notion there is male/female in the first place? Or choosing not to be one? Is gender something you choose or born with?

Non-binary just means "not male or female". Transgender means being a gender other than the one you were assigned at birth. As for choosing a gender or being born with it, I honestly don't know. I'd need to do a bit more research into that area.

For example I am from chinese origin, but born in the netherlands. I dont consider myself either chinese or dutch, but both. There is no logic for me to claim I am neither. What thoughtprocess would I need to come to that conclusion? Should I make a courtcase out of it to remove my nationality of either dutch or chinese to "neutral"?

If you absolutely know 100% that you are neither, then sure. But it would make international travel very difficult

EDIT: Edited to remove a lengthy gender and nationality thing that didn't really make sense.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes we do if I understand correctly what you mean.

Geslacht en sekse. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Nope. They mean exactly the same in the dutch language. The biological gender. Sekse=geslacht=sex. So no there is no dutch word for gender as identity. Try to say it out loud and you will understand both only define gender as sex.

That said I have discovered that you can use "gender" as a way to define gender identity:

For the dutch speaking:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_(identiteitsaspect)