Transgender Thread.

[Scaff]

Coexistence

I’m sorry which q? I felt like I responded to the pertinent ones. I feel that I’ve made the point I was trying to make.
I will maybe respectfully try to bow out if you don’t mind.
If there is a particular q I will respond, out of respect.
To me it’s an interesting discussion but I don’t want to continue if I am not adding anything.



Again they have the belief and I have mine. Both can coexist in harmony imo.
When either side tries to force the other to do something problems form.
I only posted on the topic because it’s getting to the point here of legislation and I have a problem being told what to say or how to think.
Maybe it’s best if I just bow out of this topic.

I've asked you to explain why you are being forced to do anything and by who?

It's a claim you have repeatedly made and I'm yet to see an answer.

An other question if I may. Where do you start on what to call people who have legally changed name or who use a shortened version on their given name?

 

[Groundfish]

@Scaff
Where I am from here there’s folks who wish to legislate what is the correct pronoun to use in this case.
I think it compromises certain folks integrity to be told incorrect pronoun use could be a punishable offense.
It’s not the case yet though.
In the link I posted the religious guy got into trouble because he refused to use the pronoun desired by another person.
I think name changes like that basketball player World B. Free are silly, but it doesn’t bother me much.
I’m just stuck on the pronoun issue. Semantics yes, but still serious to me.
It’s not because of some religious text or something.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff
Where I am from here there’s folks who wish to legislate what is the correct pronoun to use in this case.
I think it compromises certain folks integrity to be told incorrect pronoun use could be a punishable offense.
It’s not the case yet though.

I'm aware of the proposed legislation, and no it doesn't.

http://sds.utoronto.ca/blog/bill-c-16-no-its-not-about-criminalizing-pronoun-misuse/

Not that it stopped publicity hounds like Peterson claiming incorrectly that it does.

In the link I posted the religious guy got into trouble because he refused to use the pronoun desired by another person.

Free speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences, particularly in the workplace.

I think name changes like that basketball player World B. Free are silly, but it doesn’t bother me much.
I’m just stuck on the pronoun issue. Semantics yes, but still serious to me.

That would suggest that the issue is about more than just the noun then.
If it doesn't bother you with the like of legally changed names or shortened given names but it does with those who identify as a different gender, I would suggest you ask yourself why exact that is? as its certainly not that they are asking for a different title to be used (as you are happy to do that with those who do it in other circumstances).

It’s not because of some religious text or something.

I didn't say it was religious, but it is clearly caused by 'something'.

 

[McLaren]

Gay/lesbian/bi are not genders, they are sexual orientations. You can be cisgender and gay just like you can be transgender and gay. Or non-binary and straight. Or gender-fluid and bi, and so on.

Interesting. Not debating you, it just paints a bigger picture of some people on Twitter who like to begin Tweets with, "cisgender white males" with cisgender being used to reference being straight.

 

[Groundfish]

@Scaff
To be fair, I said people changing their name doesn’t bother me much, not that I am not bothered by it at all.
It comes down to what I said before conceptually regarding belief and that’s it imo.
I’m definitely bowing out of this one. I had put together a long post, but instead, I will simply choose to abstain from further participation in this thread.

 

[CSLACR]

It's the Opinions forum. All of them.

Which doesn't really matter. You can't be silenced by people who don't agree with your opinion, unless they're staff and you actually have broken a rule in expressing your opinion. Even if that happens, it's not your opinion that's the problem but how you express it.

We're not the wider internet. We're GTPlanet:

It doesn't matter what passes for discussion on Twitter, or Facebook, or Youtube comments. Our users need to leave the anger at the door and discuss like adults.

I just knew someone would bring up social media when I said that.
Yes, some of it is, but also there are other forums and such on the internet.

Also there is such a thing as a large group of people in disagreement with an individual at once, causing said individual to just say screw it and leave the discussion.
Not necessarily forced into silence, but just not wanting to deal with all of that.

Especially when half of them are just echos.

As an example, I don't have time to respond to all my quoted replies, so I picked the first I saw and I'll get to the rest when/if I have time.

I dunno, ultimately I personally don’t care much about what a person identifies as. That’s psychological and subject to change.
However when someone thinks that they have a right to determine what I refer to them as...I have a problem with that. Ie if you have a right to say you are 67% male and 15% female simultaneously, don’t get angry at me if I have a right to say that it’s the plumbing that matters not the psychology and I will not compromise my integrity based on your psychology.
In other words if it’s ok that you identify as a percentage or multi gender based on whatever reason, then why is it not ok for me to use whatever pronoun seems appropriate to me depending on my faith?
Ultimately I just don’t care. I voted the way I voted. People have a right to think what they want, but I don’t believe they have a right to tell others what to think much less control their actions based on what they think.
It’s a very controversial topic.
Trans folks are not the only ones who have suffered insults. Where I am from, learning to deal with being insulted is part of growing up. I suffered a ton of ridicule based on my appearance and still do to this day. I learned to deal with it and get on with it.
So ultimately I just don’t care, I only care when someone tries to control my actions. This is neither ‘good’ nor ‘bad.’
My psychology can’t force another to change their actions. Jmo.ymmv.

You said it so much better than I did.

 

[Scaff]

You said it so much better than I did.

You mean in misunderstanding that his own 'societal norms' are in a large part controlling what he says, all the while complaining about people controlling his actions, when in reality they are not (not unless 'my names William, but call me Bill' is a form of control).

In sticking to the 'established' norms for gender and identity people are being controlled by the societal norms they have grown up with, and are not even aware make up a part of the subconscious controls they have. Its for this reason @Groundfish has no problem with people who change names or ask for shortened versions of given names too be used, as that has been coded in as a 'norm' for his societal background and upbringing. However as its a default it doesn't seem like a control mechanism, however that's exactly what it is, a control brought about by an inbuilt desire to be a part of the 'pack' or 'society'.

This entire thing reminds me of the whole Miss vs. Ms argument.

Its an odd one to object to, particularly given that plenty of socially acceptable (now) non-gender specific pronouns exist and people don;t bat an eye about those.

 

[Moglet]

Interesting. Not debating you, it just paints a bigger picture of some people on Twitter who like to begin Tweets with, "cisgender white males" with cisgender being used to reference being straight.

I think a lot of it is simply down to not knowing the differences, and that's something I'll always try and explain if people are willing to listen. Not that people are willing to listen that often on Twitter

My brother is cisgender, but very much gay. There is of course the fact that sometimes somebody who was a homosexual is actually now heterosexual (and vice versa) because they have switched genders. A friend of mine who was assigned male at birth and was straight then became a lesbian because she's female. I've seen that referred to as transbian but I'm not sure how widely used that term is.

All of this is why I like the idea of being pansexual - Attracted to people regardless of gender identity. It's just easier.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Interesting. Not debating you, it just paints a bigger picture of some people on Twitter who like to begin Tweets with, "cisgender white males" with cisgender being used to reference being straight.

Cis-hetero would be correct.

Cis is simply the opposite of trans, nothing more.

 

[TheGeologist]

I'll rephrase to "most people don't care".
And below is a good example why.

There aren't too many subjects or posts I've ever had quoted 7 times.
The fact that some people are so concerned with this, the amount that some people are angered, offended, or "insulted" by such a trivial issue, is simply amazing.

Why are you being so defensive? At no point was I offended. All I stated was that people do care about gender identity citing their recent banishment from the U.S. military.

The fact that people swarm around like bees, looking to "enlighten" or force their way of thinking down people's throats... You're just pissing people off.
It's fascism at best.

Uhh.. what? Did you even read what I originally wrote? It is a fact, not an opinion, that they were banished.

You guys think people that worry they'll lose their job and livelihood if they say the wrong thing are just going to sing a musical and have a montage and change of mind?

Okay, once again, people did lose their jobs. Anyone that is openly trans is banished from the United States military.

 

[Danoff]

Also there is such a thing as a large group of people in disagreement with an individual at once, causing said individual to just say screw it and leave the discussion.
Not necessarily forced into silence, but just not wanting to deal with all of that.

Well...

If you don't want to deal with responses, and people asking you questions about your "beliefs", then you probably should stay silent in a discussion forum where people fully intend to discuss what people post. Forced into silence? Not so much. It seems as though some folks come here to spout opinions, and when people respond, they realize that they're not up for a discussion and split.

I find it a tad disrespectful, to come to a place like this, spout an opinion, and then get upset that people have questions and concerns about your opinion. Holding fast to the notion that you can just spout whatever you want, no matter how nonsensical or contradictory, and that nobody can ask you to justify it rationally, is the purest form of entitlement.

 

[PocketZeven]

I think a lot of it is simply down to not knowing the differences, and that's something I'll always try and explain if people are willing to listen. Not that people are willing to listen that often on Twitter

My brother is cisgender, but very much gay. There is of course the fact that sometimes somebody who was a homosexual is actually now heterosexual (and vice versa) because they have switched genders. A friend of mine who was assigned male at birth and was straight then became a lesbian because she's female. I've seen that referred to as transbian but I'm not sure how widely used that term is.

All of this is why I like the idea of being pansexual - Attracted to people regardless of gender identity. It's just easier.

Discovering the word Gender makes everything much more complicated. Are there any more terms for sexual preferences? Is a heterosexual male in a relationship with a trangender woman still heterosexual? Or how do you call a transgender female who prefers females?

 

[Famine]

Is a heterosexual male in a relationship with a trangender woman still heterosexual?

That depends on what he finds attractive, her vagina or her Y chromosome.

(assuming you mean post-transition woman).

 

[PocketZeven]

That depends on what he finds attractive, her vagina or her Y chromosome.

(assuming you mean post-transition woman).

I meant Post. But the man knows she is trans and normally is not homosexual. Is that still heterosexual? Or Bi perhaps?

 

[Famine]

But the man knows she is trans and normally is not homosexual. Is that still heterosexual? Or Bi perhaps?

Again, it depends on whether he finds her vagina attractive or her Y chromosome.

Since the point of transitioning is to fit in as your new gender, what you're basically asking here is "Is it gay to find feminine facial features, breasts and genitalia attractive?".

Which is about 30% of the plot of Ace Ventura: Pet Detective.

 

[PocketZeven]

Again, it depends on whether he finds her vagina attractive or her Y chromosome.

Since the point of transitioning is to fit in as your new gender, what you're basically asking here is "Is it gay to find feminine facial features, breasts and genitalia attractive?".

Which is about 30% of the plot of Ace Ventura: Pet Detective.

I dont see how someone is attracted to a chromosome or vagina. For the conversation's sake he is attracted to the female features and personality.

Lets say Ace wasnt freaked out about the reveal and wanted to continue the relationship. Is it still called hetero, gay or something else?

Edit: Wasnt she pre transition? I remember the charachter still having a penis? But for above's example sake lets just assume she is fully transitioned.

 

[Famine]

Why would it be gay for a man to be physically attracted to a woman? Why would it be anything but heterosexual?

Are you gay because you responded to this post with "Damn she is beautifull! I dont even care what her plumbing is!"?

I... just... what?

 

[Scaff]

For the conversation's sake he is attracted to the female features and personality.

Then he's most likely heterosexual.

 

[PocketZeven]

Why would it be gay for a man to be physically attracted to a woman? Why would it be anything but heterosexual?

Are you gay because you responded to this post with "Damn she is beautifull! I dont even care what her plumbing is!"?

I... just... what?

Appreciating someones beauty does not automatically mean I am intrested sexually. If I find my mother beautifull, doesnt mean I am intrested sexually.

You are misunderstanding. I was curious if there was a seperate word for it. I only last year learned the difference between gender and sex.

 

[Mr Tree]

Appreciating someones beauty does not automatically mean I am intrested sexually. If I find my mother beautifull, doesnt mean I am intrested sexually.

You are misunderstanding. I was curious if there was a seperate word for it. I only last year learned the difference between gender and sex.

I can see where you're coming from but if you just stop overthinking it it seems only mogical you're heterosexual in that situation.
You're attracted to a female in the examples case. Or at least I think what is is more important then what was.

 

[Danoff]

For the conversation's sake he is attracted to the female features and personality.

Female features, at least feminine features, I totally get. Female personality... that's a tougher nut to crack. I wonder whether that really exists. Is there such a thing as a more or less feminine personality?

Whatever the stereotypes are for femininity in personality, I think I'm not attracted to it. If I have to play personality stereotypes, I'm gay in that respect. I'm all about feminine features, but I get along with more men than women.

 

[PocketZeven]

I can see where you're coming from but if you just stop overthinking it it seems only mogical you're heterosexual in that situation.
You're attracted to a female in the examples case. Or at least I think what is is more important then what was.

Logic tell me you are correct. However a fully transitioned transgender woman is still transgender and not "female". She is "transgender female" or just female?

Female features, at least feminine features, I totally get. Female personality... that's a tougher nut to crack. I wonder whether that really exists. Is there such a thing as a more or less feminine personality?

Whatever the stereotypes are for femininity in personality, I think I'm not attracted to it. If I have to play personality stereotypes, I'm gay in that respect. I'm all about feminine features, but I get along with more men than women.

I guess an examples of femine personality traits are the natural motherly instinct. There are certainly other traits, but that is one of them I find attractive. Concerning stereotypes in your example I am probably Bi.

 

[Dobermann92]

While I'm not a biologist to know how many genders there are (I have an opinion about it but I mostly don't care), there is one thing which I'm strongly for: If a transgender (or more precisely transsexual) person is on a date they should tell the other person that they are transgender. Most of the transgender people know this and tell it to the other person but there are exemptions. It is for making a clear decision that how much will it affect the future of the relationship. If you don't care that the woman was a man before (a person born as a male after surgery) then go for it but if you are disgusted by it (which doesn't mean you are against it, it is a normal human reaction) then you should have this information to avoid serious frustration later in the relationship.

 

[Moglet]

if you are disgusted by it (which doesn't mean you are against it, it is a normal human reaction)

I think its often good for a relationship to reveal something like that as early as possible but I don't think we should consider disgust a normal human reaction to someone who is trans.

On a related note, I was talking to a trans girl in our group of friends over Christmas and completely out of the blue she just stood up and triumphantly announced "I think I'm going to keep my dick"

 

[Dobermann92]

I think its often good for a relationship to reveal something like that as early as possible but I don't think we should consider disgust a normal human reaction to someone who is trans.

On a related note, I was talking to a trans girl in our group of friends over Christmas and completely out of the blue she just went "I think I'm going to keep my dick"

I'm strongly for LGBT+ rights but I'm disgusted about gay sex. I would consider a transgender who did not went through operation as they have the same sex as me. I don't have the right to tell two consenting adults what to do in their bed. There is a great Richard Dawkins video on it:



I would recommend the whole series to you, it is very interesting.

 

[Danoff]

I'm strongly for LGBT+ rights but I'm disgusted about gay sex.

I'm disgusted by a fair amount of heterosexual sex. At what point, when someone is into something, are they obliged to disclose it to someone they are dating. Let's take something safely freaky like BDSM.

 

[Dobermann92]

I'm disgusted by a fair amount of heterosexual sex. At what point, when someone is into something, are they obliged to disclose it to someone they are dating. Let's take something safely freaky like BDSM.

Before they consider having sex of course. You don't have to open with this discussion because that is just simply weird, but if you are really into BDSM then I think you should tell your partner in advance. That is why talking to the other person before having sex is very important in my opinion.

I'm not into peeing or most of the fetishes, but if consenting adults do it then I don't really care. It is important to have that primer knowledge to what to expect of the other person.

 

[Danoff]

Before they consider having sex of course. You don't have to open with this discussion because that is just simply weird, but if you are really into BDSM then I think you should tell your partner in advance. That is why talking to the other person before having sex is very important in my opinion.

So would you say that if you're into heterosexual sex that people find disgusting you can be upfront about it later than if you're of a gender (I suppose I mean physically or psychologically) that they might find disgusting to have sex with? Seems like you should come out with something you think might disgust the other person pretty much as soon as it's reasonable to do so in either case.

 

[Dobermann92]

So would you say that if you're into heterosexual sex that people find disgusting you can be upfront about it later than if you're of a gender (I suppose I mean physically or psychologically) that they might find disgusting to have sex with? Seems like you should come out with something you think might disgust the other person pretty much as soon as it's reasonable to do so in either case.

These are just mere suggestions, but usually you kiss before having sex and kissing a person who is the same sex as you can be frustrating later if you didn't know it in advance. These are suggestions based on human interactions, there are no strict rules in this regard. If you aren't transitioning, just have a different gender than "normal" (meaning you fall to the other or noncomfornist category) then you should tell that too in the first several dates, but it won't have much affect on the relation itself in my opinion.

 

[Moglet]

I'm disgusted by a fair amount of heterosexual sex. At what point, when someone is into something, are they obliged to disclose it to someone they are dating. Let's take something safely freaky like BDSM.

I think the difference here is that you're not required to pull out a ball gag and whip the first time you have sex with a new partner, whereas there's no avoiding the fact that someone might not have the genitalia that you're expecting!