Transgender Thread.

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Transgender is...?

  • Ok for anyone

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • Ok as long as it's binary (Male to Female or vice versa)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wrong

    Votes: 2 8.3%
  • No one's business except the person involved

    Votes: 12 50.0%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 3 12.5%

  • Total voters
    24
@Daniel - "The differences between sex and gender"...

If viewed not as interchangeable terms, referring solely to biological sex, I don't see that there's much point in describing "gender" at all. Still, if there's a want to describe these certain traits/behaviours/roles, I oppose the conflation with sex. Using male/female terminology attaches those descriptions/monikers to biological sex, making it inherently sexist and (in my opinion) societally regressive. I think that it needs to be further distanced (by not using male/female), or not distanced at all. In the same way, I would vehemently oppose there becoming an equivalent distinction between say race and ethnicity, where ethnicity became a term for certain traits/behaviours/roles to be deemed black, white, asian.....

I think that people should be and feel free to look and act how they need/want to, without that being a commentary on what it is to be male or female. I oppose sexism in both its "conservative" and "progressive" forms.
I'd have to go back and do some reading of both Judith Butler and West & Zimmerman's works, but from memory, the intent was describing and highlighting the notion that certain traits and expectations are socially constructed and placed upon individuals because of what is between their legs.

That isn't to say that those theorists applauded it; scholars of feminist theory will probably have done the opposite, especially in cases where said norms negatively affected women.

And then there's the whole notion of gender identity, gender expression, gender euphoria and dysphoria.

Human cultures are complicated, but I definitely don't regret majoring in anthropology :lol:
 
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The shoe fits if you want to label yourself that.

Who? Matt Walsh? That moron wouldn't say **** to me. These guys are bitch made in public on their own.

Look in a mirror. You throw a fit every time you talk about transgender & now we all know why b/c you listen to the dumbest people on YouTube.
So people who understand the biological differences between men and women are the dumbest people? Well who are you?
In the very first video Matt's definition was challenged with the idea of a person without reproductive organs. Intersex is a thing and by itself it already makes a neat binary sex classification difficult. Things get even muddier when you realize that people forgo biology all the time when classifying people in social situations. Who checks another person's chromosomes or internal organs before addressing them? No one in day to day life. In many, many cases if someone fits another's internal concept of a man they are labeled as male no matter their biology. The same is true in the reverse situation.
No we don't check organs or chromosomes because that is undignified and totally stupid. That's why we have genders, right?
I myself don't have a problem with using biological definitions for male and female, but even then I realize that those definitions aren't as straight forward in practice as they might seem. Right now we're communicating through the internet where biology is even harder to establish, yet people are still labeled male and female based on a number of factors through this medium. Those factors are subjective in many cases, which makes the notion of identity being subjective as put forward in the video not so far fetched. I think it's reasonable to disagree to the points raised, but not so much to dismiss the idea entirely. I think it's also important to point out that, at least from what I saw, no one was arguing against biological reality.
I think the definitions are pretty straight forward mate.
I'm assuming the insanity is supposed to be in the videos you posted. Can you summarize it? At best I see arguments that sound unpolished perhaps from a lack of preparation, but still touch on some valid points.
Well when a woman, with female sex organs, cannot reproduce, it means that SHE is infertile. She doesn't stop being a woman because her vagina doesn't function as intended. This is not the same as a male not being able to get pregnant because nothing in their biology will ever allow for it! It's not the same!
Wait you actually identify as a cat or is that a joke?

If it's the former, curious why you identifying as a cat is fine but people identifying as the opposite gender or a different one is crossing the line?
Yes, that is a joke.
 
No we don't check organs or chromosomes because that is undignified and totally stupid. That's why we have genders, right?

What bathroom and pronouns should this person use?

images-8.jpeg

What about this person?

stinson.jpg

What about this person?

3f55e008a04b4d9babe7cbc9610bf6aa.jpg

How do you know what gender they are if you can't check their organs or chromosomes?
 
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No we don't check organs or chromosomes because that is undignified and totally stupid. That's why we have genders, right?
Matt brought up organs. So where does that leave his definition?
I think the definitions are pretty straight forward mate.
Rigorous definitions aren't impossible, but then they're not likely to be used in social interactions. This is the problem. If we use Matt's definition, it's not straight forward because like you said it's a stupid basis for classification when interacting with people.
Well when a woman, with female sex organs, cannot reproduce, it means that SHE is infertile. She doesn't stop being a woman because her vagina doesn't function as intended. This is not the same as a male not being able to get pregnant because nothing in their biology will ever allow for it! It's not the same!
This wasn't mentioned in the first two videos.
 
Matt brought up organs. So where does that leave his definition?
You tell me.
Rigorous definitions aren't impossible, but then they're not likely to be used in social interactions. This is the problem. If we use Matt's definition, it's not straight forward because like you said it's a stupid basis for classification when interacting with people.
That's why have genders! You didn't even read what I said!
This wasn't mentioned in the first two videos.
No but it WAS mentioned in the third.
 
You tell me.
I wasn't using the definition.
That's why have genders! You didn't even read what I said!
I did read your post, although I'm not totally clear on what you're trying to say now. Gender comes from a lot more than complications in determining biology.
No but it WAS mentioned in the third.
OK I had not watched that one, but what was it in the first two that you would call insanity?
 
Male

Male

Male
Okay, before I give you the answers, I want to fully understand your viewpoint so I can continue the discussion in good faith. I don't want to misconstrue a previous statement of yours regarding "That's why we have genders, right?"

So, can you please clarify what you mean when you say 'male'?

A) Sex is the same as gender. You are saying these three people are all of the male sex and the male gender.
B) Sex is different than gender. You are saying that these three people are of the male sex, but their gender might not match up.
C) Sex is different than gender. You are saying that these three people would identify with a 'male' gender, but their sex might not be male.

Or do you have a different viewpoint entirely?
 
What? So telling people that there's 2 types of reproductive organs is wrong?
Then you will have no problem defining biological sex at all, as you have been asked repeatedly and refused to adress.
And you're saying that I'm just a dumbass follower? Do you even know who you're dealing with?
Matt Walsh? That's easy he's a far-right grifter, who describes himself as a "theocratic fascist". Let me ask you quite clearly, do you know who he is and do you align yourself with his views? I aks also as you express being disturbed at anti-sematic content here, yet seem unaware that admitted fascist Walsh is a genocide denier.

Let's take a look at Matt Walsh's record:
  • Repeated defender of rapists and paedophiles
  • Blatant and proud misogynist
  • Anti-abortion - including in the cases of rape and incest
  • Anti-LGBT - to the point of believing conversion therapy works.
  • Racist to the degree he believes the 'great replacement theory'
  • Genocide denier (repeat offender)
  • Claims Anxiety, depression, ADHD, and DID are not real
  • Big, big fan of authoritarianism
  • Climate Change denier
  • Vaccine denier
  • Claims anime is satanic
  • Tobacco Good : Weed Bad
  • Claims video games make people killers
  • Thinks yoga is a pagan ritual
  • Claims homeless people are just grifters
Or are you too busy being outraged to see the insanity that trans activists push?
OK I will make this real simple, the bulk of the alleged 'tans-agenda' is not getting murdered by idiots with views aligned with the likes of Matt Walsh, the rest is made up by idiots like Matt Walsh.

One 'agenda' wants to stay alive, and the other wants to actively harm members of society.

Well when a woman, with female sex organs, cannot reproduce, it means that SHE is infertile. She doesn't stop being a woman because her vagina doesn't function as intended. This is not the same as a male not being able to get pregnant because nothing in their biology will ever allow for it! It's not the same!
Tell me you know **** all about biology without telling me you know **** all about biology!

So people who understand the biological differences between men and women are the dumbest people? Well who are you?
Matt Walsh either doesn't or pretends not to, you clearly don't (or you would have defined it when asked or posted the utter tosh above)
 
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Gender rolls seem to be fairly common globally, though sometimes to varying degrees.
There is a set of expectations associated with being male or female, and that is fairly common. Where I live, a woman is an adult human of the female sex, and a man is an adult human of the male sex.

I'm not sure how a baseless field would survive to receive grants if it never produced results.
And what results has it produced?

Handwaving this all away as "some countries don't recognise gender" or saying that it's a term created by academia for grant money and only commonly used by "west-influenced" activists is wilfully ignorant at best, and transphobic at worst.
I'm not handwaving anything; I'm providing a different perspective from a country that doesn't recognize gender the way English academia does. I understand that point of view, but I don't see it as helpful. And spare me the transphobic shaming— I fully support personal freedom to do whatever one chooses.
 
There is a set of expectations associated with being male or female, and that is fairly common.
Yes, that would be gender wouldn't it?
Where I live, a woman is an adult human of the female sex, and a man is an adult human of the male sex.
I'm sure most of the world does the same, though it doesn't eliminate the possibility of gender roles.
And what results has it produced?
I don't have a specific list, I'm just wondering how you're supposed to attract funding without doing anything supposedly. Funding for research typically isn't given as a blank check that you can line your pockets with and run off.
 
I'm not handwaving anything; I'm providing a different perspective from a country that doesn't recognize gender the way English academia does. I understand that point of view, but I don't see it as helpful. And spare me the transphobic shaming— I fully support personal freedom to do whatever one chooses.
You refused to engage in any of my points highlighting some of the core aspects of gender (including differences in social expectations, roles and norms) and sex (differences in biology). If that's not handwaving then why is yours flapping around in the wind?

Also just confirming, when you say you're "providing a different perspective", are you also providing the perspective of the 50-60 Czechs who undergo gender-affirming surgery per year, as well as the views of the Constitutional Court ruling that made it easier for trans people to change their legal gender, or just people who agree with your views?

Like I said, just because you don't see or agree with that "perspective" does not mean that it does not exist in your country.
There is a set of expectations associated with being male or female, and that is fairly common.
Lets put it this way.

What set of expectations do you think there are for the each of the three people I posted photos of above?

This is not an attempt to "catch" you being sexist or transphobic. I agree with you about there being certain social expectations about men and women - society and culture works that way. My hope is to show you why those expectations are directed at gender, and not biological sex.

---

@ScottPuss20 I'm still waiting on your response for the below :)

So, can you please clarify what you mean when you say 'male'?

A) Sex is the same as gender. You are saying these three people are all of the male sex and the male gender.
B) Sex is different than gender. You are saying that these three people are of the male sex, but their gender might not match up.
C) Sex is different than gender. You are saying that these three people would identify with a 'male' gender, but their sex might not be male.

Or do you have a different viewpoint entirely?
 
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Okay, before I give you the answers, I want to fully understand your viewpoint so I can continue the discussion in good faith. I don't want to misconstrue a previous statement of yours regarding "That's why we have genders, right?"

So, can you please clarify what you mean when you say 'male'?

A) Sex is the same as gender. You are saying these three people are all of the male sex and the male gender.
B) Sex is different than gender. You are saying that these three people are of the male sex, but their gender might not match up.
C) Sex is different than gender. You are saying that these three people would identify with a 'male' gender, but their sex might not be male.

Or do you have a different viewpoint entirely?
I'm not going to clarify anything to you because I don't want to be dragged down into some pointless **** fight for the next week. It doesn't matter what I say, I'm clearly never going to give the answer you are looking for.
 
I'm clearly never going to give the answer you are looking for.
And just didn't.

It's not about giving the right or wrong answer, it's about getting you to think about the reasons for your answer to justify your answer to yourself.

If, as your evasion above somewhat hints, you cannot justify your answer to yourself, maybe it's time to think about changing your answer.

Especially since you just put a woman who was born female into a male toilet based on a picture of her...
 
I'm not going to clarify anything to you because I don't want to be dragged down into some pointless **** fight for the next week. It doesn't matter what I say, I'm clearly never going to give the answer you are looking for.
I'm not here to **** fight, I promise!

I genuinely want to understand your perspective and views, and I'd love for you to help provide some clarity on them it because this whole topic can easily turn into arguments about semantics as any sort of cultural or social phenomena can happen.

Jumping the shark or misconstruing your post is the last thing I want to do.

@Famine let me cook please I beg you
 
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And just didn't.

It's not about giving the right or wrong answer, it's about getting you to think about the reasons for your answer to justify your answer to yourself.

If, as your evasion above somewhat hints, you cannot justify your answer to yourself, maybe it's time to think about changing your answer.

Especially since you just put a woman who was born female into a male toilet based on a picture of her...
You criticised me for not doubling down on my view in the past so I will stand firm now. I'm not changing my answer.
 
You criticised me for not doubling down on my view in the past
Actually, I didn't.

I criticised you for doubling-down on dumbness-based-on-feelings repeatedly until being presented with actual evidence, and said that changing your mind once given evidence was a good thing - but it shouldn't come after all the dumbness beforehand. You should be informed before making your mind up, rather than making your mind up on ignorance and taking dozens of posts to recant.


One of your three answers puts a woman who was born female into a male toilet based on a picture of her. It should make you wonder why, although it very much looks like you won't.
 
Actually, I didn't.

I criticised you for doubling-down on dumbness-based-on-feelings repeatedly until being presented with actual evidence, and said that changing your mind once given evidence was a good thing - but it shouldn't come after all the dumbness beforehand. You should be informed before making your mind up, rather than making your mind up on ignorance and taking dozens of posts to recant.


One of your three answers puts a woman who was born female into a male toilet based on a picture of her. It should make you wonder why, although it very much looks like you won't.
OK so we've established that I've got one of them wrong. You want to know why? The particularly chiseled jawline, the muscular neck, the haircut and the muscular arms look very masculine if you ask me.
 
I'd have to go back and do some reading of both Judith Butler and West & Zimmerman's works, but from memory, the intent was describing and highlighting the notion that certain traits and expectations are socially constructed and placed upon individuals because of what is between their legs.

That isn't to say that those theorists applauded it; scholars of feminist theory will probably have done the opposite, especially in cases where said norms negatively affected women.

And then there's the whole notion of gender identity, gender expression, gender euphoria and dysphoria.

Human cultures are complicated, but I definitely don't regret majoring in anthropology :lol:
Do you think that people would have felt it necessary to have the terms sex and gender diverge if it were not for the existence of conservative sexism? If sex/gender was considered merely academic, and people felt free to present however they wanted/needed to, I can't see why sexual/gender dysphoria would ever have existed (or at least be widely validated). It seems to me that the divergence panders to conservative sexism, and in the process, creates its own variant. Why have gender identity when we can just have freeform identity? Why have gender expression when we can just have freeform expression? Why not essentially do away with the risk of gender dysphoria?

It's not a problem to describe traits/behaviours/roles, it's a problem to label them male or female. "I am introverted", "I like cars", "I like pink", "I have long hair", "I wear makeup", "I play sports", "I am the breadwinner", "I take care of the kids", "I play video games", "I am empathic"...... do you see any of those traits/behaviours/roles as gender-specific? I recognise that some of them might be more commonly associated with a certain gender, but there's no way I'd place the restriction on any of them by saying that they're male or female things. Is there an example of anything that you would be willing to say is a male or female trait/behaviour/role?


* by the way... thank you for enabling a civil discussion, without the sense of a want for character assassination. I find that this area of the forum is much more homogeneous and far less liberal than when I gained the most from it. I appreciate that (in my eyes) you're doing it "the right way".
 
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OK so we've established that I've got one of them wrong. You want to know why? The particularly chiseled jawline, the muscular neck, the haircut and the muscular arms look very masculine if you ask me.
Okay, we're getting somewhere. You were saying before that you agreed with Matt Walsh' affirmation that a woman is an 'adult human female'.

I'm not refuting that point, all I really want to know is:

If someone is an adult human female, would you say that:
  • Their sex is a woman
  • Their gender is a woman
  • Both, because I'm essentially saying the same thing twice.
 
Okay, we're getting somewhere. You were saying before that you agreed with Matt Walsh' affirmation that a woman is an 'adult human female'.

I'm not refuting that point, all I really want to know is:

If someone is an adult human female, would you say that:
  • Their sex is a woman
  • Their gender is a woman
  • Both, because I'm essentially saying the same thing twice.
Yes.
 
They do tend to be aligned in most cases.
To echo what @LeMansAid said, I suspect a lot of people here would agree with you on that. In fact they're so closely aligned to the point where there have been multiple pages in thread based on misunderstandings about what people are saying versus what they're indending to say.

Those 'trans activists' disagree with Matt Walsh's definition of a woman, but not because they are denying "biological reality". They disagree because they view the word 'woman' in the context of gender, and not sex.

If you use sex as the signifier for day-to-day life, for instance:
  • Which bathroom do I use?
  • Do I use Mr or Miss if I'm asking my teacher something?
  • If I'm talking to someone else about Scott, do I say "he" or "she"?
Then you'll have a very difficult time trying to prove it and you might get it wrong sometimes.

Let's go back to those photos. I asked you 'what bathroom and pronouns would these people use', and you responded 'Male' to each of them.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of your response is that you are saying these men are all biologically male, and if you were talking about one of them, you would use the term "he".

1736478468152.png


This is a rugby player named Ilona Maher. She was born female, and her identiy is 'woman'.

1736478479599.png

This is a body builder named Shaun Stinson. He was born female, but his gender identity is 'man'.

1736478491943.png


This is LaRae Perkins. She was born female, and her gender is a woman. She has a condition called PCOS (which can only happen in those born female) which can cause facial hair growth.

The point I hope you can get from that little exercise is understanding why many people will prioritise gender over sex when it comes to day-to-day interactions.

And unless you're a doctor, or about to (consentually) undress someone for some fun adult sleepovers, I would say sex is irelevant to the conversation.

---

@LeMansAid I wouldn’t say that traits or roles are gender-specific, but rather that certain traits can be gendered (i.e. associated closely with a particular gender).

That’s not inherently a bad thing, in my opinion. The real issue arises when people are boxed into those traits or roles, or restricted from them, because of their gender.

One example would be facial hair -- it's almost universally a trait associated with masculinity. That doesn't mean that it's specific to men (see photo above.

It’s not sexist to point out that a mechanic is a typically masculine profession. It would be sexist if someone refused to let a mechanic do her job because her name tag says "Lisa" on it, or if she was passed over for a promotion for the same reason.

Similarly, I wouldn’t call it problematic to say that wearing dresses and heels is often seen as a feminine presentation in many cultures. But if Brian harassed for wearing a fabulous dress with matching heels (💅) then that's bad (and while not necessarily sexist it, I hope my point still stands :lol:).

Those associations are also cultural. I can't think of an example specifically for gender right now, but for Western cultures, men holding hands is often read as romantic or “gay,” but it's not seen as such in some parts of South Asia (and the Middle East, I think?). The issue isn't the action, or the fact that the issue might be interpreted in a certain way, but the issue is that others judge it because of what that interpretation means.

Ultimately, I don't think that the distinction arose from specifically trying to counter conservative sexism, nor is it problematic to describe things we see in society as somewhat gendered.

I wanted to try and get somewhere without jumping to conclusions based on misunderstanding. There's a lot of that when it comes to anything sociocultural, especially when the definitions can be so muddled.
 
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