Travesty called the U.N.

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K saiyu ...this is for your benifit..I hope it penetrates your skull when you read it .

This is the charter of Hezbollah..this is WHY they exist and what they exist for .

read it and let it sink in and maybe you will come to a greater understanding of the problem.
EVERYTHING can't be decided by negotiation or diplomacy . Only a fool or a soon to be dead or enslaved person believes that .

Our Identity
We are often asked: Who are we, the Hizballah, and what is our identity? We are the sons of the umma (Muslim community) - the party of God (Hizb Allah) the vanguard of which was made victorious by God in Iran. There the vanguard succeeded to lay down the bases of a Muslim state which plays a central role in the world. We obey the orders of one leader, wise and just, that of our tutor and faqih (jurist) who fulfills all the necessary conditions: Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. God save him!

By virtue of the above, we do not constitute an organized and closed party in Lebanon. nor are we a tight political cadre. We are an umma linked to the Muslims of the whole world by the solid doctrinal and religious connection of Islam, whose message God wanted to be fulfilled by the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., Muhammad. This is why whatever touches or strikes the Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Philippines and elsewhere reverberates throughout the whole Muslim umma of which we are an integral part. Our behavior is dictated to us by legal principles laid down by the light of an overall political conception defined by the leading jurist (wilayat al-faqih).

As for our culture, it is based on the Holy Koran, the Sunna and the legal rulings of the faqih who is our source of imitation (marja' al-taqlid). Our culture is crystal clear. It is not complicated and is accessible to all.

No one can imagine the importance of our military potential as our military apparatus is not separate from our overall social fabric. Each of us is a fighting soldier. And when it becomes necessary to carry out the Holy War, each of us takes up his assignment in the fight in accordance with the injunctions of the Law, and that in the framework of the mission carried out under the tutelage of the Commanding Jurist.

Our Fight
The US has tried, through its local agents, to persuade the people that those who crushed their arrogance in Lebanon and frustrated their conspiracy against the oppressed (mustad'afin) were nothing but a bunch of fanatic terrorists whose sole aim is to dynamite bars and destroy slot machines. Such suggestions cannot and will not mislead our umma, for the whole world knows that whoever wishes to oppose the US, that arrogant superpower, cannot indulge in marginal acts which may make it deviate from its major objective. We combat abomination and we shall tear out its very roots, its primary roots, which are the US. All attempts made to drive us into marginal actions will fail, especially as our determination to fight the US is solid.

We declare openly and loudly that we are an umma which fears God only and is by no means ready to tolerate injustice, aggression and humiliation. America, its Atlantic Pact allies, and the Zionist entity in the holy land of Palestine, attacked us and continue to do so without respite. Their aim is to make us eat dust continually. This is why we are, more and more, in a state of permanent alert in order to repel aggression and defend our religion, our existence, our dignity. They invaded our country, destroyed our villages, slit the throats of our children, violated our sanctuaries and appointed masters over our people who committed the worst massacres against our umma. They do not cease to give support to these allies of Israel, and do not enable us to decide our future according to our own wishes.

In a single night the Israelis and the Phalangists executed thousands of our sons, women and children in Sabra and Shatilla. No international organization protested or denounced this ferocious massacre in an effective manner, a massacre perpetrated with the tacit accord of America's European allies, which had retreated a few days, maybe even a few hours earlier, from the Palestinian camps. The Lebanese defeatists accepted putting the camps under the protection of that crafty fox, the US envoy Philip Habib.

We have no alternative but to confront aggression by sacrifice. The coordination between the Phalangists and Israel continues and develops. A hundred thousand victims - this is the approximate balance sheet of crimes committed by them and by the US against us. Almost half a million Muslims were forced to leave their homes. Their quarters were virtually totally destroyed in Nab'a, my own Beirut suburb, as well as in Burj Hammud, Dekonaneh, Tel Zaatar, Sinbay, Ghawarina and Jubeil - all in areas controlled today by the 'Lebanese Forces',. The Zionist occupation then launched its usurpatory invasion of Lebanon in full and open collusion with the Phalanges. The latter condemned all attempts to resist the invading forces. They participated in the implementation of certain Israeli plans in order to accomplish its Lebanese dream and acceded to all Israeli requests in order to gain power.

And this is, in fact, what happened. Bashir Jumayyil, that butcher, seized power with the help also of OPEC countries and the Jumayyil family. Bashir tried to improve his ugly image by joining the six-member Committee of Public Safety presided over by former President Elias Sarkis, which was nothing but an American-Israeli bridge borrowed by the Phalangists in order to control the oppressed. Our people could not tolerate humiliation any more. It destroyed the oppressors, the invaders and their lackeys. But the US persisted in its folly and installed Amin Jumayyil to replace his brother. Some of his first so called achievements were to destroy the homes of refugees and other displaced persons, attack mosques, and order the army to bombard the southern suburbs of Beirut, where the oppressed people resided. He invited European troops to help him against us and signed the May 17th, [1984] accord with Israel making Lebanon an American protectorate.

Our people could not bear any more treachery. It decided to oppose infidelity - be it French, American or Israeli - by striking at their headquarters and launching a veritable war of resistance against the Occupation forces. Finally, the enemy had to decide to retreat by stages.

Our Objectives
Let us put it truthfully: the sons of Hizhallah know who are their major enemies in the Middle East - the Phalanges, Israel, France and the US. The sons of our umma are now in a state of growing confrontation with them, and will remain so until the realization of the following three objectives:

(a) to expel the Americans. the French and their allies definitely from Lebanon, putting an end to any colonialist entity on our land;
(b) to submit the Phalanges to a just power and bring them all to justice for the crimes they have perpetrated against Muslims and Christians;
(c) to permit all the sons of our people to determine their future and to choose in all the liberty the form of government they desire. We call upon all of them to pick the option of Islamic government which, alone, is capable of guaranteeing justice and liberty for all. Only an Islamic regime can stop any further tentative attempts of imperialistic infiltration into our country.
These are Lebanon's objectives; those are its enemies. As for our friends, they are all the world's oppressed peoples. Our friends are also those who combat our enemies and who defend us from their evil. Towards these friends, individuals as well as organizations, we turn and say:
Friends, wherever you are in Lebanon... we are in agreement with you on the great and necessary objectives: destroying American hegemony in our land; putting an end to the burdensome Israeli Occupation; beating back all the Phalangists' attempts to monopolize power and administration.
Even though we have, friends, quite different viewpoints as to the means of the struggle, on the levels upon which it must be carried out, we should surmount these tiny divergencies and consolidate cooperation between us in view of the grand design.
We are an umma which adheres to the message of Islam. We want all the oppressed to be able to study the divine message in order to bring justice, peace and tranquillity to the world. This is why we don't want to impose Islam upon anybody, as much as we that others impose upon us their convictions and their political systems. We don't want Islam to reign in Lebanon by force as is the case with the Maronites today. This is the minimum that we can accept in order to be able to accede by legal means to realize our ambitions, to save Lebanon from its dependence upon East and West, to put an end to foreign occupation and to adopt a regime freely wanted by the people of Lebanon.
This is our perception of the present state of affairs. This is the Lebanon we envision. In the light of our conceptions, our opposition to the present system is the function of two factors; (1) the present regime is the product of an arrogance so unjust that no reform or modification can remedy it. It should be changed radically, and (2) World Imperialism which is hostile to Islam.

We consider that all opposition in Lebanon voiced in the name of reform can only profit, ultimately, the present system. All such opposition which operates within the framework of the conservation and safeguarding of the present constitution without demanding changes at the level of the very foundation of the regime is, hence, an opposition of pure formality which cannot satisfy the interests of the oppressed masses. Likewise, any opposition which confronts the present regime but within the limits fixed by it, is an illusory opposition which renders a great service to the Jumayyil system. Moreover, we cannot be concerned by any proposition of political reform which accepts the rotten system actually in effect. We could not care less about the creation of this or that governmental coalition or about the participation of this or that political personality in some ministerial post, which is but a part of this unjust regime.

The politics followed by the chiefs of political Maronism through the 'Lebanese Front' and the 'Lebanese Forces' cannot guarantee peace and tranquillity for the Christians of Lebanon, whereas it is predicated upon 'asabiyya (narrow-minded particularism), on confessional privileges and on the alliance with colonialism. The Lebanese crisis has proven that confessional privileges are one of the principal causes of the great explosion which ravaged the country. It also proved that outside help was of no use to the Christians of Lebanon, just when they need it most. The bell tolled for the fanatic Christians to rid themselves of denominational allegiance and of illusion deriving from the monopolization of privileges to the detriment of other communities. The Christians should answer the appeal from heaven and have recourse to reason instead of arms, to persuasion instead of confessionalism.

To the Christians
If you, Christians, cannot tolerate that Muslims share with you certain domains of government, Allah has also made it intolerable for Muslims to participate in an unjust regime, unjust for you and for us, in a regime which is not predicated upon the prescriptions (ahkam) of religion and upon the basis of the Law (the Shari’a) as laid down by Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets. If you search for justice, who is more just than Allah? It is He who sent down from the sky the message of Islam through his successive prophets in order that they judge the people and give everyone his rights. If you were deceived and misled into believing that we anticipate vengeance against you - your fears are unjustified. For those of you who are peaceful, continue to live in our midst without anybody even thinking to trouble you.

We don't wish you evil. We call upon you to embrace Islam so that you can be happy in this world and the next. If you refuse to adhere to Islam, maintain your ties with the Muslims and don't take part in any activity against them. Free yourselves from the consequences of hateful confessionalism. Banish from your hearts all fanaticism and parochialism. Open your hearts to our Call (da'wa) which we address to you. Open yourselves up to Islam where you'll find salvation and happiness upon earth and in the hereafter. We extend this invitation also to all the oppressed among the non-Muslims. As for those who belong to Islam only formally, we exhort them to adhere to Islam in religious practice and to renounce all fanaticisms which are rejected by our religion.

World Scene
We reject both the USSR and the US, both Capitalism and Communism, for both are incapable of laying the foundations for a just society.

With special vehemence we reject UNIFIL as they were sent by world arrogance to occupy areas evacuated by Israel and serve for the latter as a buffer zone. They should be treated much like the Zionists. All should know that the goals of the Phalangists regime do not carry any weight with the Combatants of the Holy War, i.e., the Islamic resistance. This is the quagmire which awaits all foreign intervention.

There, then, are our conceptions and our objectives which serve as our basis and inspire our march. Those who accept them should know that all rights belong to Allah and He bestows them. Those who reject them, we'll be patient with them, till Allah decides between us and the people of injustice.

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.


do you get it ?
 
I had to stop you right there.

Why would you negotiated with beings that you don't consider worthy to breathe air?

All Hezbolah wants is to destroy Israel, that's it. So of course they don't want to talk with Israel...until Israel puts them in a fold nelson and they finally say uncle for a few years.

Well carry on reading my post and see why.

K saiyu ...this is for your benifit..I hope it penetrates your skull when you read it .

This is the charter of Hezbollah..this is WHY they exist and what they exist for .

read it and let it sink in and maybe you will come to a greater understanding of the problem.
EVERYTHING can't be decided by negotiation or diplomacy . Only a fool or a soon to be dead or enslaved person believes that .

You too need to read my post. If they can have talks with Hamas, why not Hezbollah. Do you think I'm some peace loving hippy that you presume I believe that everything can be decided by negotiation or diplomacy?
 
Well carry on reading my post and see why.



You too need to read my post. If they can have talks with Hamas, why not Hezbollah. Do you think I'm some peace loving hippy that you presume I believe that everything can be decided by negotiation or diplomacy?



If they can have talks with Hamas, why not Hezbollah.

For this very simple reason...again and I quote ;

Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.


This is the fundemental difference between Hamas and Hezbollah..though similar organizations. When they do negotiate if at all its for prisoner exchanges..NOT FOR PEACE .

You can't negotiate with an organization that is sworn to your eradication !

Why is that SO hard for you to grasp ?

You die or they die . You surrender or they do...THERE IS NO BASIS FOR NEGOTIATION AT ALL .

What...." we will stop having children and excepting new immigrants if you stop killing us" ? If you stop killing us we will commit mass suicide on Yom Kippur ? Dont kill us any more and we will close Israel kill everyone that wont leave and send the rest packing ?

Why are you so dense ?

Hamas gets negotiated with over what ? What has Israel negotiated with Hamas ? Where they were going to put the next tank round , who's house they were blowing up and what leader a missile was going to hit ...other than that NO PEACE NEGOTIATIONS..only prisoner swaps when Israel feels like it .

Hamas wants no peace with Israel and neither does hezbolah..so they fight .

They negotiate only when Israel has a boot on their neck and they need a breather .


Pay special attention to this part BTW ...

We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements


So tell me what are you negotiating ?
 
Do you think I'm some peace loving hippy that you presume I believe that everything can be decided by negotiation or diplomacy?

Actually, that's pretty close to what I was thinking. Except the hippie part.
 
For this very simple reason...again and I quote ;

This is the fundemental difference between Hamas and Hezbollah..though similar organizations. When they do negotiate if at all its for prisoner exchanges..NOT FOR PEACE .

Wrong - Hamas is STILL sworn to the destruction of Israel, plus you haven't argued against my points about Israel's past negotiations with countries in compliance with either the PLO, Hamas or Hezbollah.

Ledhead
Why are you so dense ?

Continually stating the same thing over and over again and repeatedly getting annoyed with me doesn't constitute a debate - argue the points with something new or stop.

Swift
Actually, that's pretty close to what I was thinking. Except the hippie part.

I had a feeling, and I'm sure you're not the only one who thinks that too.
 
Just remember, one Ohio class nuclear sub has the power to end the world 8 times over.


cold war deterrence it fun !
 
Wrong - Hamas is STILL sworn to the destruction of Israel, plus you haven't argued against my points about Israel's past negotiations with countries in compliance with either the PLO, Hamas or Hezbollah.



Continually stating the same thing over and over again and repeatedly getting annoyed with me doesn't constitute a debate - argue the points with something new or stop.



I had a feeling, and I'm sure you're not the only one who thinks that too.



They negotiated with the PLO after it recognised israel in the camp david accords..all other negotiations are either prisoner exchanges or negotiations for cease fires and THIRD partys are involved they are NOT DIRECT negotiations ..please cite an example that proves differently...hamas may want to negotiate a cease fire when they are about to be crushed..other than that WHAT negotiations were there between Israel and hamas ????

You are still missing the point..Israel has NO STARTING POINT for negotiations with any organization that doesn't recolgnise its right to exist .
NONE ...NADA ...They attack Israel Israel responds ..they get a cease fire after getting stomped on for a while then they start over ..WTF kind of negotiations are they ?

Whhen did Israel EVER sit down and negotiate with Hamas ? Or Hezbollah ?:

NAME ONE TIME .
 
They negotiated with the PLO after it recognised israel in the camp david accords..all other negotiations are either prisoner exchanges or negotiations for cease fires and THIRD partys are involved they are NOT DIRECT negotiations

Exactly, which is what I was trying to show. I'm not fooling myself and saying you can negotiate with them for an everlasting peace and end to the Israeli-arab hostilities which even Hezbollah say:

"The Lebanese reject negotiations with the Zionist enemy. They consider these negotiations unnecessary, worthless and have no basis or place," Hussein Haj Hassan told Al-Jazeera television."

But if there was the possibility for an prevention to the fighting, which is what the prisoner exchange could have achieved, I hoped Israel would have been willing to explore the possibility ESPECIALLY considering the greater amount held in Israeli jails. Please don't take this as me being naive and thinking that every single man, woman and child held by the Israelis is innocent because they are not.

ledhead
..please cite an example that proves differently...hamas may want to negotiate a cease fire when they are about to be crushed..other than that WHAT negotiations were there between Israel and hamas ????

You are still missing the point..Israel has NO STARTING POINT for negotiations with any organization that doesn't recolgnise its right to exist .
NONE ...NADA ...They attack Israel Israel responds ..they get a cease fire after getting stomped on for a while then they start over ..WTF kind of negotiations are they ?

Whhen did Israel EVER sit down and negotiate with Hamas ? Or Hezbollah ?:

NAME ONE TIME .

The answer is what you have already expressed earlier in your post, plus one agreement of the top of my head was the cease-fire deal made through the PNA with the Palestinian militants (including Hamas) in the run up to the Gaza Withdrawal by Israel. True, Israel has been less willing with the PNA after the election since the more "Israel friendly" party was outvoted, but I'm just trying to show that there can be "agreements" between the two - they don't have to be radical, long lasting ones which I and all parties admit would be IMPOSSIBLE, but they can be done even if by proxy.

You're also still missing my point as well about Israel being able to collectively punish Lebanon for it's involvement with Hezbollah yet still talk with and have relations (however fractured) with their neighbours who SUPPORT and ARM Hezbollah, and in the past Hamas - both of whom were sworn to the destruction on Israel.
 
The lebanese prime minister said yesterday that Lebanon will be " the last country ever to have recognition of Israel " . (thats just a side note ).

But to respond to your premise that Israel could have negotiated instead of going to war against hezbollah ...you are somewhat Naive of everything that took place and the history between the two...first they attacked immediately after the hezbollah " invaded " Israel and killed the other members of the convoy and kidnapped the two survivors..they did this in the hope of rescuing them..upon this attempt they took MORE casualties and lolst a tank inside Lebanon and had to send in MORE troops to get out those that chased the kidnappers , immediately AFTER Hezbollah started raining rockets on northern Israel and the airstrikes started..at what time did you want them to go search for a HEZBOLLAH leader to negotiate with ? they are not in Israel..they do not have an embassy..in fact they ran to Syria to hide after missiles started flying into their windows .

How excactly did you want Israel to negotiate ..? With Whom ????

Now if you recall israel immediately set terms and Hezbollah laughed at them ..so what now ..? How do you negotiate ???

The negotiating came through the UN .....Hezbollah was told by its masters..Syria and Iran what to do ...both countries that have NO relations or embassy or consuls with Israel..in fact do not even recognize Israel as a country or its right to exist..so Israel had to negotiate with WHO ..THE WHOLE UN ??? Multiple envoys ?? Guys on the street ?? Hezbollah is a state sponsored terror group and SYRIA AND IRAN DENY HAVING CONTROLL OVER THEM. Hmmm... so if they " negotiate" on their behalf they are proving themselves to be liars ...

So please explain how in the physical sense Israel could negotiate even if they WANTED to ? All they could do was broadcast terms and bomb stuff and " negotiate " using other methods...Since Lebanon is the " home " of Hezbollah ..the Lebanese are responsible for them..Do you except that fact at least ?

At any rate things escallated very fast to a point where hezbollah was hiding or fighting..their leaders were fleeing for shelter ..not exactly conductive to "negotiating ' at least until the WAR IS OVER .
 
This is the type of thing I would have liked to have seen tried:

UN secretary-general Kofi Annan says he will appoint a secret negotiator to mediate between Israel and Hezbollah for the release of two Israeli soldiers seized in July.
But Israeli officials say Mr Annan's role is to secure the release of the soldiers demanded by a UN resolution, not to mediate.

Hezbollah gave a cautious response, backing only indirect negotiations to secure a prisoner exchange.
"The two sides have accepted the effort of the secretary-general to help solve this problem," Mr Annan told a news conference in Saudi Arabia.
"I will appoint a person to work secretly with the two sides ... I will not announce his name today or tomorrow," he said through an Arabic interpreter.

The release of the soldiers, whose capture by Hezbollah in a cross-border raid on July 12 sparked a 34-day war, is at the centre of a UN resolution for a permanent ceasefire on the Lebanon-Israel border.
Hezbollah wants to exchange the soldiers for Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails.
Hezbollah and the Jewish state have been involved in prisoner exchanges in the past.
"A mediator is not needed," an Israeli government official said.
"The UN resolution determines that soldiers will be released unconditionally. The UN secretary-general will assist and not mediate."

Israel's official position remains that it will not enter into any negotiations to free the soldiers, Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev says.
When asked about the announcement, a senior Hezbollah official, Energy Minister Mohammed Fneish, said he was not authorised to comment on any role for Mr Annan, but added:
"We agree to a basic principle which is to conduct a prisoner exchange through indirect negotiations. Who is the channel is a detail."

Whether it could have worked and prevented war and casualties on both sides of the border, who knows, but I would have liked to have seen this approach before the conflict began and not after.
 
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