Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman

[a6m5]

His father lived there.

I'm sorry I missed that, too. That, at least to me, makes the break-in scenario even more far fetched.

I should just shut up at this point. I'm trying very hard to get through to everyone that I am totally on Trayvon Martin's side, but also that we shouldn't assume anything at this point. No, I'm not doing very good job. I could have just made the point by posting "wait".

 

[Pupik]

That, at least to me, makes the break-in scenario even more far fetched.

I lost the keys to my house, but fortunately, I had a can of soda and a bag of Skittles to help me break into that house, because that's what I'd use to break a window and cause trouble.

After all, if you plant corn, you get corn. I'm in Iowa right now, and they think it's the dumbest argument they've ever heard (okay, straw man argument in extremis, but really?)

 

[dautolover]

No, I don't think Zimmerman did anything more to initiate the incident than being a concerned citizen and following a potential robbery suspect.

On what basis did Zimmerman think that Martin was a potential robbery suspect?

Not to single out, but because I live here, I'm very annoyed by the racial diversity leading to multi-way racism. If this video featured a white man, by this funny political correctness and racial sensitivity in this country, it would actually seem very racist to many Americans. Regardless of race, the man is just speaking common sense.

He also points out the politics in this, which reminds me of politicians like Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson. Not that I follow those two, but I get the impression that their interest is in the divide between the blacks & the whites. They don't want to heal the wounds, unite the nation. They want to cash in on the continued racial conflict. I swear sometimes they seem like they go looking for smoke, so they can make it into fire.

Like pointed out in the video, more blacks are killed by blacks. Now, if Sharpton or Jackson showed more focus on that, fixing that, I can truly respect a man like that, and consider him a great leader of our time.

Instead, they usually fly in here in the defense of black criminal shot by the police, at least around here.

I had the possibility of Trayvon Martin as a break-in suspect completely ruled out. As a result, at first, I thought you were nuts.

I still think that is a lot of assumption at this stage, but what hit me was, someone I know recently got arrested for similar crime. No criminal record. College student, good kid(used to play ball with him), rich parents, etc. Imagine our surprise when we heard that he was caught inside someone's home.

I'm just sharing my personal experience, and just saying that we shouldn't rule this out completely, not until we have more information.

I think that Sharpton and Jackson invoke race because they feel that whites don't necessarily want to unite with blacks at all. When blacks feel discriminated against, whites always tend to downplay racism (something that is happening in this case). This lack of understanding keeps people divided, not united.

I'm sure they talk about crimes within the black community too. However, the difference between this type of violence and the violence between blacks and police/Zimmerman is that in the former the aggressor always rightly ends up in prison, but in the latter, the aggressor gets away with the murder (or killing or homicide, whatever you want to call it) by citing self-defense. Indeed, the major worry for many activists is that the Zimmerman case can serve as precedent that can make it easy to claim self-defense by simply stating "this kid looks suspicious."

 

[Dapper]

20 years earlier...

They said it was for the black man,
they said it was for the mexican,
and not for the white man.

But if you look at the streets it wasn't about Rodney King,
It's bout this *****d up situation and these ****ed up police.
It's about coming up and staying on top
and screamin' 187 on a mother ****in' cop.
It's not written on the paper it's on the wall.

 

[sumbrownkid]

That was different though. Rodney King was driving drunk and was an endangerment to the public. Beating was way too harsh, but today even my fellow neighbors said they would have beaten him.

 

[Dapper]

"But if you look at the streets it wasn't about Rodney King..."
"It's about coming up and staying on top..."

It is the needle that broke the camels back.
Chris Rock says it best, "There isn't a white man that would trade places with me... and I'm rich!"


And, obviously, Rodney King was no different. Putting the guy in cuffs was their job and that could've easily been done.

 

[Pupik]

I think that Sharpton and Jackson invoke race because they feel that whites don't necessarily want to unite with blacks at all.

No, they feed off the collective ignorance and the mass appeal of creating a scapegoat that is an invisible entity (government, "the man" for example). I'm not saying they're racist, and I'm not saying they directly stir up "reverse racism" (i.e. racism). But what I do say is that they generally dumb-down the message of "you need to fix the problems in your community" (which takes a long time, and results aren't necessarily immediate) to something simpler that makes the crowd feel good for a moment by creating a blanket villian (it's their fault, not ours...fix this, and it's panacea-time!).

I think they speak to a poorer-class of person (not necessarily all poor people, mind you) who might act out in a group mentality, rather than as an individual who wouldn't necessarily be incited to destruction nor violence, seeking more of a simpler middle path within the deep shade and simplicity of the big bell curve. There's also outlier groups that court all sorts of races, national status, and ethnic/religious groups, but when in times and occasions of deep fear, the actions of a tiny fraction of individuals are used to paint an entire group into a straight, narrow, and hastily-drawn stripe.

When blacks feel discriminated against, whites always tend to downplay racism (something that is happening in this case). This lack of understanding keeps people divided, not united...I'm sure they talk about crimes within the black community too.

For every discussion about how people should transcend race and color, there's three more discussions about how each race is holding the other back. We're all equal, until it's convenient to make separations and distinctions; when our feelings are hurt, many folks use the simpler animal behavior of blaming external forces, one looks towards an outward source that caused their misfortune or treatment.

I suppose this really goes in the Racism thread.

We can only wait and see how this court case pans out.

 

[Dapper]

I think they speak to a poorer-class of person (not necessarily all poor people, mind you) who might act out in a group mentality, rather than as an individual who wouldn't necessarily be incited to destruction nor violence, seeking more of a simpler middle path within the deep shade and simplicity of the big bell curve.

I think you are using 'poorer-class' to describe the people with greater class. The people who you think are classy really aren't. I think the people who you think are classy, which I am sure you include yourself, have a history that is not worthy of pride. And, as we have seen recently, the people who you think are a poorer-class have responded with almost unprecedented amounts of class. (since the rest of your post was based on this faulty pretense, I won't bother.)

Freedom riders is about a group of people...

edit- Charges coming tonight.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So let's say Zimmerman approached Martin and asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood. Then Martin attacks him at some point. Wouldn't he be justified in shooting Martin?

 

[Dapper]

So let's say Zimmerman approached Martin and asked him what he was doing in the neighborhood. Then Martin attacks him at some point. Wouldn't he be justified in shooting Martin?

BUT FOR Zimmerman approaching Martin, Martin would still be alive. Therefore, if Zimmerman approached Martin (which he essentially admitted), Zimmerman is guilty.

Dude is charged with 2nd degree murder. /freedom

 

[dudedo]

Thank goodness he's finally been arrested!

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

BUT FOR Zimmerman approaching Martin, Martin would still be alive. Therefore, if Zimmerman approached Martin (which he essentially admitted), Zimmerman is guilty.

The same could be said about a policeman killing an armed criminal. The logic isn't exactly sound.


There is some creepy guy acting suspicious staring at some kids in a park. I approach him and ask him what he's doing. He takes offense and starts attacking me. If I have a gun and fear for my life, I would say shooting the person would be a good option.

Is there a point when something said justifies a physical response?

 

[Dapper]

The same could be said about a policeman killing an armed criminal. The logic isn't exactly sound.

Police is not community watch. Martin was not armed or a criminal. ^Not sound logic.

There is some creepy guy acting suspicious staring at some kids in a park. I approach him and ask him what he's doing. He takes offense and starts attacking me. If I have a gun and fear for my life, I would say shooting the person would be a good option.

You should call the police! That is what they are for.

Is there a point when something said justifies a physical response?

Not by you.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Police is not community watch. Martin was not armed or a criminal. ^Not sound logic.

In the case of an armed criminal, it doesn't really matter if it's a police officer. If he attacked Zimmerman then he is a criminal.

You should call the police! That is what they are for.

What if I don't or he tries to pick up a kid?

Not by you.

What are you exactly referring to? If Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing, then Martin should have no right to physically attack him?

 

[arora]

You should call the police! That is what they are for.

I have a problem with this, not defending Zimmermen as I don't know the facts but just in general... If my liberties are being violated I have the right to protect them period, I don't need to wait for some doofus with a badge. I'm against vegil antis of course but if I see someone else's liberties being violated I'll do something about it and call the police later thanks.

As for this shooting, I'd guess the shooter was over zelous and probably commited unwarranted homicide or outright murder. Unfortunate things like this lead to a cry we should not have the right, wait for the cop, meh.

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't know exactly how Florida defines second degree murder, but generally it requires an act such as assault, rape, or armed robbery, which is known to possibly result in death, being the cause of the murder. I hope they have evidence to justify that charge over something like unintentional manslaughter. If not then Florida may be developing a reputation as over-reaching in high-profile homicides, like in the Casey Anthony case. And considering the racial tensions involved I would hate to see the reaction to Zimmerman being found not guilty.

 

[a6m5]

There is some creepy guy acting suspicious staring at some kids in a park. I approach him and ask him what he's doing. He takes offense and starts attacking me. If I have a gun and fear for my life, I would say shooting the person would be a good option.

Obviously, this is the point I was getting to as well. It is perfectly acceptable to approach and question a suspicious person. Most Americans can legally carry a firearm on them. If they feel that their life is threatened by the attacker, they are permitted to shoot in self-defense.

I just don't see the racial angle in this case. However, I do feel that it is a big deal, because I believe(my assumption here) it allows a man like Zimmerman to believe that he can confront a kid, and if they get into a scuffle, he can just shoot the kid that he believes is guilty.

I do see a big problem here, and it has absolutely nothing with race.

I think that Sharpton and Jackson invoke race because they feel that whites don't necessarily want to unite with blacks at all. When blacks feel discriminated against, whites always tend to downplay racism (something that is happening in this case). This lack of understanding keeps people divided, not united.

I'm sure they talk about crimes within the black community too. However, the difference between this type of violence and the violence between blacks and police/Zimmerman is that in the former the aggressor always rightly ends up in prison, but in the latter, the aggressor gets away with the murder (or killing or homicide, whatever you want to call it) by citing self-defense. Indeed, the major worry for many activists is that the Zimmerman case can serve as precedent that can make it easy to claim self-defense by simply stating "this kid looks suspicious."

I do see your point, but all this distrust & paranoia by the blacks are very frustrating. I'm not talking about Trayvon Martin, but if you are concerned about black men getting shot by police, or in supposed self-defense, where do you think you should start working? Disregard the race for second: If I'm always in danger of getting shot by the police, what am I doing wrong? Is it the trigger-happy cops? Probably more to do with your actions or associations.

I realize I'm oversimplifying it, but if I didn't want to get hit by a car, I would not try to cross over the freeway on foot. That's my oversimplified logic.

 

[Pupik]

I think you are using 'poorer-class' to describe the people with greater class. The people who you think are classy really aren't. I think the people who you think are classy, which I am sure you include yourself, have a history that is not worthy of pride. And, as we have seen recently, the people who you think are a poorer-class have responded with almost unprecedented amounts of class. (since the rest of your post was based on this faulty pretense, I won't bother.)

Thanks, that was as refreshing as getting hit in the head with an empty beer can.

 

[Dapper]

Proximate cause
"But for the fact..." At 14:30 and 18:20.

If my liberties are being violated I have the right to protect them period, I don't need to wait for some doofus with a badge. I'm against vegil antis of course but if I see someone else's liberties being violated I'll do something about it and call the police later thanks.

You are equating a guy staring at a park to an armed gunman following a minor.
A guy at a park is not hurting anyone, much like Martin. So, essentially, if you start a confrontation you get what you deserve. Zimmerman, for example, may have gotten beat up, possible life in prison and publicly ostracized.

No one is allowed to start a confrontation and end it in murder. That is murder. Zimmerman started the confrontation. Remember, but for the fact he kept following Martin, Martin would be alive.

As for this shooting, I'd guess the shooter was over zelous and probably commited unwarranted homicide or outright murder. Unfortunate things like this lead to a cry we should not have the right, wait for the cop, meh.

What are you talking about? How is self defense even close to this case?

Thanks, that was as refreshing as getting hit in the head with an empty beer can.

Thanks for reaffirming your stance.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Proximate cause
"But for the fact..." At 14:30 and 18:20.

Ooo... Let me try

But for the fact Martin attacked Zimmerman, Martin would still be alive. Zimmerman must've shot in defense.

Here's a cool video I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d5eP0wWLQY#t=19s

 

[arora]

What are you talking about? How is self defense even close to this case?

Self defense? Not what I'm saying, here...

Murder Charge in Florida:
Florida law defines murder as:

The unlawful killing of a human being:

When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;
When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any serious felony (sic).
First Degree Murder is punishable by either life in prison without any chance of parole, or death. There are other degrees of murder, such as second and third degree murder.

Manslaughter Charge in Florida:
Florida law defines manslaughter as:

The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification... and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree.

 

[Dapper]

Ooo... Let me try

But for the fact Martin attacked Zimmerman, Martin would still be alive. Zimmerman must've shot in defense.

I don't know why I even read your post.

How can a person being followed (Zimmerman admitted he was following!) attack their pursuant? You can't act in a forceful manner to someone you don't know is following you.

And what a gross misunderstanding of clear text.

The "event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held the cause of that injury" is not a minor attacking an armed grown man. Zimmerman said he was the pursuant in 911 call.

The "event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held the cause of that injury" is Zimmerman overstepping his duty which is basically the equivalent of a crossing guard.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

How can a person being followed (Zimmerman admitted he was following!) attack their pursuant? You can't act in a forceful manner to someone you don't know is following you.

Simple, they turn around and attack the person. As far as I know following someone is not a crime.

The "event sufficiently related to a legally recognizable injury to be held the cause of that injury" is not a minor attacking an armed grown man.

If he was attacked with his back to Martin, then Martin had a good advantage. One good punch can knock anybody out. I would guess Martin had more considerably more experience in street fights than Zimmerman. Weight doesn't do much if you don't know how to fight.

 

[Dapper]

Simple, they turn around and attack the person. As far as I know following someone is not a crime.

But for Zimmerman following...

If he was attacked with his back to Martin, then Martin had a good advantage. One good punch can knock anybody out. I would guess Martin had more considerably more experience in street fights than Zimmerman. Weight doesn't do much if you don't know how to fight.

Could you please quit speaking from the wrong end of the alimentary canal? Fighting cops is great experience. 👍
Zimmerman's a heaping pile O' poo

 

[Northstar]

I have a feeling they are once again over reaching as far as charges in Florida. From what I have seen they could have a decent case for Manslaughter but are going for Murder instead.

Guess we will see what they have evidence wise once the case starts if it is made public.

Zimmerman's a heaping pile O' poo

I closed the window once I saw NBC in the URL.

 

[dautolover]

I do see your point, but all this distrust & paranoia by the blacks are very frustrating. I'm not talking about Trayvon Martin, but if you are concerned about black men getting shot by police, or in supposed self-defense, where do you think you should start working? Disregard the race for second: If I'm always in danger of getting shot by the police, what am I doing wrong? Is it the trigger-happy cops? Probably more to do with your actions or associations.

That's an understandable stance. The problem is that the distrust and paranoia that blacks and even Latinos feel stems from experience... they see these things occurring everyday.

In my opinion, had Zimmerman ignored Martin's race, Martin would still be alive. Why? Because he wouldn't have approached him, because he wouldn't have thought there was anything strange about a kid walking down a neighborhood. Because there really isn't anything strange or wrong with just walking in a neighborhood, after having bought Skittles from the nearby 7/11, right?

Thus, race cannot be ignored.

But what I do say is that they generally dumb-down the message of "you need to fix the problems in your community" (which takes a long time, and results aren't necessarily immediate) to something simpler that makes the crowd feel good for a moment by creating a blanket villian (it's their fault, not ours...fix this, and it's panacea-time!).
...
For every discussion about how people should transcend race and color, there's three more discussions about how each race is holding the other back. We're all equal, until it's convenient to make separations and distinctions; when our feelings are hurt, many folks use the simpler animal behavior of blaming external forces, one looks towards an outward source that caused their misfortune or treatment.

I suppose this really goes in the Racism thread.

We can only wait and see how this court case pans out.

These are things talked about in the racism thread. Just to "quickly" address the parts Dapper didn't already address...

1) One thing to realize about Sharpton and Jackson is that they are deeply rooted in the church. They have more of a pulpit style of rhetoric that is supposed to be, umm, more "inspirational" than analytic. Younger activists tend to be more inclusive in terms of allowing whites to talk about race, than their older counterparts. Many whites have talked about notions of white privilege, and modern day racism.
2) I don't think people go around blaming society at large for every single misfortune. When one hears that everyone is equal, yet feels that they are treated differently, and when they see people of the same race are treated equally different, that's when people start to invoke race. The Martin case shows these problems (check my reply to a6m5).

Simple, they turn around and attack the person. As far as I know following someone is not a crime.

If he was attacked with his back to Martin, then Martin had a good advantage. One good punch can knock anybody out. I would guess Martin had more considerably more experience in street fights than Zimmerman. Weight doesn't do much if you don't know how to fight.

What?! What makes you believe the latter point, that Martin has more experience in street fights?

 

[dautolover]

I closed the window once I saw NBC in the URL.

Not a good reason to not check it out. It could be a start point of inquiry.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

What?! What makes you believe the latter point, that Martin has more experience in street fights?

Looking at what's been posted of his Twitter account and the multiple suspensions from school, this isn't some innocent kid. There's no proof, but it wouldn't be a far stretch.

Apparently the police report Trayvor at 160 pounds. Zimmerman's family say Zimmerman is 190 pounds.

I've been watching this recently, so my view is biased

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

That video made me angry, If I was there some people would have left in stretchers.

 

[berty1979]

I couldnt watch that to the end, I hate seeing a bunch of animals with no morals cowardly attacking someone who is alone. Makes me mad too