Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman

dautolover
In my opinion, had Zimmerman ignored Martin's race, Martin would still be alive. Why? Because he wouldn't have approached him, because he wouldn't have thought there was anything strange about a kid walking down a neighborhood. Because there really isn't anything strange or wrong with just walking in a neighborhood, after having bought Skittles from the nearby 7/11, right?

Thus, race cannot be ignored.
You make a lot of assumptions. I walked into a bank once with a hoodie, hood raised because it was raining, and the security guard/off duty cop immediately stood up. When I removed my hood he sat down. I'm white, in my 30s, and wear slacks and dress shirts to work, but that day I had a hood concealing my face as I entered a bank. I was also followed by a convenient store owner when I was a teen. He followed any teen he saw, which was a lot because the store was across the street from the high school. That was ageism, but in a town with only three black families he didn't assume his shoplifting issues were from those teens.

A kid you don't recognize with a hood up in a neighborhood with recent break-ins can cause suspicion, regardless of race. I would love to see a study on the false accusations by neighborhood watch members that didn't result in a death. The fact that a neighborhood watch was implemented means that residents are likely already suspicious of anyone, including each other.

Simply put, we have no evidence to suggest Zimmerman saw a black person and became suspicious before knowing anything else. If Trayvon had his hood up (do we know if that is the case?) Zimmerman may have needed to get close, or at a good angle to determine race, depending on lighting conditions and so forth.

Too much is unknown to assume much of anything. There were supposedly break-ins recently and so any kid wandering around may appear suspicious to a guy actively looking for the suspect.
 
I have a feeling they are once again over reaching as far as charges in Florida. From what I have seen they could have a decent case for Manslaughter but are going for Murder instead.

Guess we will see what they have evidence wise once the case starts if it is made public.
The difference between manslaughter and murder is the intent to kill. Guns aren't fired as warnings. One pulls the trigger to kill.

I closed the window once I saw NBC in the URL.
So you know, there are pictures of Zimmerman's real police report. It just shows the guy is not a good person. I wouldn't intervene while police are arresting people who serve alcohol to minors. :indiff:
 
The difference between manslaughter and murder is the intent to kill. Guns aren't fired as warnings. One pulls the trigger to kill.

Read my post again(not that you will), the evidence I have seen doesn't make me believe that they will be able to get a murder conviction, manslaughter is much easier to prosecute, especially since self defense is going to be a major part of the case.

So you know, there are pictures of Zimmerman's real police report. It just shows the guy is not a good person. I wouldn't intervene while police are arresting people who serve alcohol to minors. :indiff:

Do you know why I said what I did?

This is NBC we are talking about, the same damn people that edited the 911 tape. Even watching the video it seems insanely one sided and only using quotes from the report that fit their side. After that tape I have completely lost what little respect I had for NBC, any report coming out of their mouth is as credible as The Onion as far as I'm concerned.

Honestly, I don't even know why I'm responding to you, you are as easy to deal with as a crumbling brick wall.
 
Read my post again(not that you will), the evidence I have seen doesn't make me believe that they will be able to get a murder conviction, manslaughter is much easier to prosecute, especially since self defense is going to be a major part of the case.
I was simply defining the difference between the two. And adding a bit of logic about the his charge (guns are used for killing, not unintentional killing like manslaughter).

Do you know why I said what I did?

This is NBC we are talking about, the same damn people that edited the 911 tape. Even watching the video it seems insanely one sided and only using quotes from the report that fit their side. After that tape I have completely lost what little respect I had for NBC, any report coming out of their mouth is as credible as The Onion as far as I'm concerned.

Honestly, I don't even know why I'm responding to you, you are as easy to deal with as a crumbling brick wall.
I know why. And it is completely irrelevant. A police report is objective. :dunce:
 
Dapper
The difference between manslaughter and murder is the intent to kill. Guns aren't fired as warnings. One pulls the trigger to kill.
Second degree murder means you initially engaged in an activity to cause harm and the death was an unintended consequence. Unless they can show that Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation they will have a hard case to prove. But manslaughter can be a death caused by reckless behavior where you never intended to hurt anyone, such as verbally confronting a person after a 911 operator said not to.

If the situation was not initiated by Zimmerman (as in Trayvon came back to attack him after he stopped following or Trayvon responded to a simple question with physical violence) and he felt he needed to defend himself then neither charge may apply.

And your description of guns isn't close to the truth. That is a very broad generalization that does not apply in many cases, including home or self defense. One does not only pull the trigger to kill, and unless you have evidence to show the intent was to kill you are now just applying anti-gun biased logic. I have shot many guns. Not once did I intend to kill anyone and only once did I intend to kill an animal.
 
I don't think the prosecution is going to get the murder charges pass the jury. The evidence is just way too inconclusive to point out intentional murder.
 
Looking at what's been posted of his Twitter account and the multiple suspensions from school, this isn't some innocent kid. There's no proof, but it wouldn't be a far stretch.

Apparently the police report Trayvor at 160 pounds. Zimmerman's family say Zimmerman is 190 pounds.

I've been watching this recently, so my view is biased


Multiple suspensions can stem from many things (fighting, talking back to teachers, excessive tardiness). Whether these things matter when determining whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense... I'm not sure those things give (or could give) the defense a strong argument in favor of Zimmerman.

Any difference in weight (and to some extent, fighting ability) is rendered null in the presence of a handgun. The power dynamics change quickly.

While the video shows something that is reprehensible and ugly, I don't know how this video can affect the case, unless you think that Martin is in any way like these morons. But again, why would you think that? Because they have similar skin color?

You make a lot of assumptions. I walked into a bank once with a hoodie, hood raised because it was raining, and the security guard/off duty cop immediately stood up. When I removed my hood he sat down. I'm white, in my 30s, and wear slacks and dress shirts to work, but that day I had a hood concealing my face as I entered a bank. I was also followed by a convenient store owner when I was a teen. He followed any teen he saw, which was a lot because the store was across the street from the high school. That was ageism, but in a town with only three black families he didn't assume his shoplifting issues were from those teens.

A kid you don't recognize with a hood up in a neighborhood with recent break-ins can cause suspicion, regardless of race. I would love to see a study on the false accusations by neighborhood watch members that didn't result in a death. The fact that a neighborhood watch was implemented means that residents are likely already suspicious of anyone, including each other.

Simply put, we have no evidence to suggest Zimmerman saw a black person and became suspicious before knowing anything else. If Trayvon had his hood up (do we know if that is the case?) Zimmerman may have needed to get close, or at a good angle to determine race, depending on lighting conditions and so forth.

Too much is unknown to assume much of anything. There were supposedly break-ins recently and so any kid wandering around may appear suspicious to a guy actively looking for the suspect.

You raise very important points... Particularly the hoodie point. While I agree that an older person might make certain associations when they see someone walking with a hoodie, these associations are always following blacks/Latinos, particularly young black/Latino men. I have a friend who entered a GameStop near City Walk (which is next to Universal Studios) wearing his hood up. My friend is Latino. Upon entering, the security guard asked him to take off his hood, which he did. But that did not stop the security guard from following him around the store. Annoyed, my friend left the premises, but the security guard continued to follow him outside the store. My other friend told the guard "we left the store already, stop following us," but the guard did not say anything or go away until he made sure my friends had left the surrounding area.

Had my friend entered the store without his hoodie, he probably wouldn't have been followed. But even after removing his hood, he still aroused suspicion. My point being that skin color and/or dress can arouse certain associations of (possible) criminality. People of color sometimes don't have to dress a particular way to stop people from making these associations. This is something that people of color are very familiar with, unfortunately.

We will see how the case turns out. Some people were asking the prosecution to file hate crime charges, which the prosecution did not do, because this one is really hard to prove.

Read my post again(not that you will), the evidence I have seen doesn't make me believe that they will be able to get a murder conviction, manslaughter is much easier to prosecute, especially since self defense is going to be a major part of the case.

Unless the prosecution feels confident that they can dismantle the self-defense claim, this shouldn't be any problem. There could be two reasons why the prosecution chose to file murder charges.
1) Public pressure.
2) Regardless if they choose manslaughter or second degree murder, the prosecution will still have to address self-defense. If they had chosen manslaughter, and the defense is able to successfully establish self-defense, Zimmerman will still walk away a free man, since he would be protected by the "Stand Your Ground" law. The prosecution might have reasoned that if this was the case, why not land the most time for Zimmerman?

The line between manslaughter and second degree murder is very thin, giving the prosecution leeway in determining how harshly they want to punish the aggressor in question. Basically, manslaughter is supposed to denote crimes in which the frailty of human composure is taken into account. Your alleged crimes of passion fall under these categories. Second degree murder involves murder that is not premeditated, but is done with malice.

The common example used to denote the difference is the passion crime: a person who discovers his/her partner sleeping with someone else grabs a gun from the drawer and kills the lover. Where the difference lies is the circumstance... if the person decides to leave without the lovers noticing, take some time to purchase a weapon to kill the lover, and then wait to catch them again in the act, it no longer is manslaughter. If done in the spot, upon learning of the affair, it is manslaughter.

One more element for the prosecution to prove, basically. Zimmerman's failure to stand back even when the 9-11 operator suggested he stand back helps fulfill, somewhat, that last element of malice. That's the circumstance that changes everything, because if Zimmerman had been unexpectedly attacked by Martin (let's say Martin did want to steal something and wanted to incapacitate the watchdog) then Zimmerman kills him, then that's manslaughter (notwithstanding the Stand Your Ground law). But the fact that it was Zimmerman doing the pursuing, and possibly Martin feeling like the he was the one in danger, 2nd degree murder isn't that far-fetched of a stretch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/homicide-murder-manslaughter-32637-2.html

and this one...
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...ee-race-and-justice-in-US/I-am-Trayvon-Martin
 
Any difference in weight (and to some extent, fighting ability) is rendered null in the presence of a handgun. The power dynamics change quickly.

Yes, but it seems like many people were questioning how a little kid could pose a threat to a grown adult. If somebody knocks you down and beats your face in, you better hope that you can get your gun out.


Multiple suspensions can stem from many things (fighting, talking back to teachers, excessive tardiness). Whether these things matter when determining whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense... I'm not sure those things give (or could give) the defense a strong argument in favor of Zimmerman.

While the video shows something that is reprehensible and ugly, I don't know how this video can affect the case, unless you think that Martin is in any way like these morons. But again, why would you think that? Because they have similar skin color?

I'm just making assumptions on his lifestyle. i don't see a reason why he couldn't be like those morons. He was acting like a thug on twitter. People were asking whether he hit a bus driver. He got suspended for vandalism and they found stolen earrings and rings in his backpack. I doubt Trayvon was a person who avoided fights.

edit: I hate Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for bringing race into any major news event they can. Should there be a white protest for the linked video?
 
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Second degree murder means you initially engaged in an activity to cause harm and the death was an unintended consequence.
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation.
:indiff:

Unless they can show that Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation they will have a hard case to prove. But manslaughter can be a death caused by reckless behavior where you never intended to hurt anyone, such as verbally confronting a person after a 911 operator said not to.
I agree, but I think some voice analysis of the screams and the lack of signs of struggle on Martin will lead to 2nd degree murder.
And your description of guns isn't close to the truth. That is a very broad generalization that does not apply in many cases, including home or self defense. One does not only pull the trigger to kill, and unless you have evidence to show the intent was to kill you are now just applying anti-gun biased logic. I have shot many guns. Not once did I intend to kill anyone and only once did I intend to kill an animal.
:dunce: Anyone who carries a gun, points it at someone and pulls the trigger is trying to kill them.
And actively pursuing another individual before these events happen only exacerbates one's intentions.
 
:dunce: Anyone who carries a gun, points it at someone and pulls the trigger is trying to kill them.
Not true. Purposely aims at center mass or head, yes, but purposely shoots limbs or quickly pulls the gun out in a panic and fires without looking, no. Yes, someone who uses a gun on another has the responsibility of knowing that they can kill the person, but that is not a definitive intent.

And actively pursuing another individual before these events happen only exacerbates one's intentions.
Which is why, if things are as they appear, I believe Zimmerman is most likely looking nothing less that manslaughter. But that still means we are making an assumption as to how the confrontation began and how it became physical. There is too little known to the public as to what happened between when Zimmerman got off the phone with 911 and the altercation began. I have to believe the prosecutor has some good evidence to go for second degree murder, but the whole nation thought the same thing in the Casey Anthony trial and we saw how the prosecution flubbed that.
 
:dunce: Anyone who carries a gun, points it at someone and pulls the trigger is trying to kill them.
Considering the amount of training it takes in the military and police forces to get people to do exactly that without hesitation, I have to assume it probably isn't true that your everyday Joe pointing a firearm at someone has the intent to kill by default.
 
Considering the amount of training it takes in the military and police forces to get people to do exactly that without hesitation, I have to assume it probably isn't true that your everyday Joe pointing a firearm at someone has the intent to kill by default.
*pointing is not shooting*
Do you own a gun? Would you shoot someone without the intent to kill them?
Even the constitution says cruel and unusual punishment is not allowed.
 
I would say the average Joe who fires at someone is either scared or angry, and not thinking clearly. Intent to kill is a different story and also why Dapper is having a hard time with the laws definition.
 
Yeah, in fact. I own several guns.


And if I was in a position where I had to point a gun at someone and fire, my first and foremost reasoning for shooting them would be to stop them from doing whatever it is that they are doing that made me point a gun at them in the first place. Not to kill them.
 
I would the average Joe who fires at someone is either scared or angry, and not thinking clearly. Intent to kill is a different story and also why Dapper is having a hard time with the laws definition.

:confused: I am the one who defined the law correctly.

A non-authority figure carrying a gun while chasing another person is not scared, and anger is not a mitigating factor.

Yeah, in fact. I own several guns.


And if I was in a position where I had to point a gun at someone and fire, my first and foremost reasoning for shooting them would be to stop them from doing whatever it is that they are doing that made me point a gun at them in the first place. Not to kill them.
If you pull the trigger without the knowledge the person may die then you have no right owning a gun. No one said pulling a gun is intended to kill someone, but shooting someone comes with the understanding they will die. Therefore, if you shoot someone your intent is to kill them (even if you shoot them to stop another action). That doesn't mean it is illegal, though. That depends on malice. Self defense is not malicious.
 
This:
If you pull the trigger without the knowledge the person may die then you have no right owning a gun.
Isn't even remotely the same thing as this:
Therefore, if you shoot someone your intent is to kill them (even if you shoot them to stop another action).
Having the knowledge that doing it may kill them is not the same thing as having intent to kill them.



Which is what Foolkiller already said almost word for word now that I look back, so I can't imagine this will go anywhere.
 
You can shoot someone and not kill them, I have seen this point raised time and again on this thread and its getting annoying. It is entirely feasible to pop someone in the leg if needs be, even a simpleton with only a few hours practice can do that at the right range!
 
*pointing is not shooting*
Do you own a gun? Would you shoot someone without the intent to kill them?
It happens often enough to have its own legal charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault#Aggravated_assault
Aggravated assault
Aggravated assault is, in some jurisdictions, a stronger form of assault, usually using a deadly weapon.[5] A person has committed an aggravated assault when that person:

attempts to cause serious bodily injury to another person such as in the case of kidnapping

attempts to have sexual activity with another person under the age of consent

attempts or causes bodily injury to another person with a deadly weapon.

Aggravated assault can also be charged in cases of attempted harm against police officers or other public servants, or for bodily harm stemming from the reckless operation of a motor vehicle. The latter is often referred to as either vehicular assault or aggravated assault with a motor vehicle.

Just because you use a deadly weapon against another does not mean that you intend to kill them. Even the law recognizes this.
 
Having the knowledge that doing it may kill them is not the same thing as having intent to kill them
.

If you know pulling the trigger may result in killing another, then do it, you are making determination to act in a certain way. :indiff:
 
If you pull the trigger without the knowledge the person may die then you have no right owning a gun. No one said pulling a gun is intended to kill someone, but shooting someone comes with the understanding they will die. Therefore, if you shoot someone your intent is to kill them (even if you shoot them to stop another action). That doesn't mean it is illegal, though. That depends on malice. Self defense is not malicious.
The correct term is "might", not "will". Thus, if you shoot someone, your intent is not necessarily going to be to kill them.
 
The correct term is "might", not "will". Thus, if you shoot someone, your intent is not necessarily going to be to kill them.

Your intent should be to protect yourself and kill them. If it is not, you are not a responsible gun owner.
Besides, cruel punishment is frowned upon and is kind of taboo is the US. It's part of the 8th amendment. Therefore, shooting someone without the intent of killing them is considered cruel and irresponsible.
 
Your intent should be to protect yourself and kill them. If it is not, you are not a responsible gun owner.
Besides, cruel punishment is frowned upon and is kind of taboo is the US. It's part of the 8th amendment. Therefore, shooting someone without the intent of killing them is considered cruel and irresponsible.

Wow.... just, wow.....
 
I feel like we're going from circular logic to spherical logic, now.
 
I (continuously) feel the absence of logic in this forum.

Gun=deadly force
Deadly force, as defined by the United States Armed Forces, is the force which a person uses, causing—or that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causing—death or serious bodily harm. In most jurisdictions, the use of deadly force is justified only under conditions of extreme necessity as a last resort, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed.

If one is too stupid to understand this, they should't own a gun.
 
You can keep repeating that all you want, because while that is absolutely true, that still doesn't mean that firing at someone is automatically intent to kill.
 
You can keep repeating that all you want, because while that is absolutely true, that still doesn't mean that firing at someone is automatically intent to kill.
An intention is a determination to act in a certain way.
Knowing guns are deadly, even if shot in the leg :dunce:, if you shoot at someone, you made a determination to act in a certain way... That certain way is with deadly force. That is the definition of an intention to kill someone.
 
I (continuously) feel the absence of logic in this forum.

oSziW.jpg
 
Under state of mind (i), intent to kill, the deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the defendant intentionally uses a deadly weapon or instrument against the victim, such use authorizes a permissive inference of intent to kill.
I love proving groups of people wrong.

Since wiki seems to be too deep for this audience, I'll rephrase.
Using a deadly weapon=intent to kill
 
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