Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman

[sumbrownkid]

Thats the Catch-22 in this situation.

If he spends a night in jail...unattended that is...he is probably gonna wake up a dead man.

Even if he was watched by security, he's gonna get hurt. He's a marked man.

The only option left is put him into protective custody. Make him disappear until the FBI or whoever can put the pieces together and start a trial.

What's pathetic is how long it's taking to get a trial started.

 

[Zenith]

Not a Catch-22.

/pedant

 

[Northstar]

What's pathetic is how long it's taking to get a trial started.

A trial for what charges?

The fact none have been filed yet means they are at least not caving into the media and filing charges just for the sake of filing them ala Casey Anthony(which was also in Florida).

Charges could come Tuesday depending on if the grand jury does meet and what they find.

 

[Keef]

If I need to shoot someone in self defense I am willing to sleep in jail for a night or two especially if it keeps the entire country from hating me.

Self-defense killings do happen, and more often than you think. But we never hear about them because they're kept private for a reason. I don't know why this case has churned up a public frenzy. This is not a typical self-defense case because we never hear about typical self-defense cases. I've got my suspicions as to why it turned into such a big deal but obviously my opinion doesn't matter until the case has been decided.

According to this article there were 326 "justifiable homicides" reported in 2010. It also notes an increase of justifiable homicides during that decade, mainly because new castle doctrines and "stand your ground" laws in various states made it possible to prosecute homicides as justifiable. This point is supported by the fact that total killings changed very little, while justifiable homicides went up drastically in some cases.

 

[FoolKiller]

What's pathetic is how long it's taking to get a trial started.

Never followed any case closely before have you? If Zimmerman had been charged on the spot and arrested it would have likely been a minimum of three months before a trial started. In a high profile case it can take years for everyone to get everything together for the case.

This isn't traffic tickets or a petty crime. Homicide investigations take months. Autopsy results alone take a month or more to get back (think Whitney Houston). Based on what is found in the autopsy report they then have to dig through each piece of evidence to see what connects to how the person died. When it is an open and shut shooting case, like this, there are also ballistics results that have to be examined. These tell where the bullet entered, at what angle, etc. That is important, particularly in this kind of case, as it will tell you where the shooter and victim were in relation to each other, if the victim were fleeing, approaching the shooter, if one of them was on top of the other, and so forth.


There is nothing pathetic about the timing here, especially considering that no charges have been filed.

 

[Dapper]

Self-defense killings do happen, and more often than you think. But we never hear about them because they're kept private for a reason. I don't know why this case has churned up a public frenzy. This is not a typical self-defense case because we never hear about typical self-defense cases. I've got my suspicions as to why it turned into such a big deal but obviously my opinion doesn't matter until the case has been decided.

According to this article there were 326 "justifiable homicides" reported in 2010. It also notes an increase of justifiable homicides during that decade, mainly because new castle doctrines and "stand your ground" laws in various states made it possible to prosecute homicides as justifiable. This point is supported by the fact that total killings changed very little, while justifiable homicides went up drastically in some cases.

I am all for blasting someone's head off if they try to come in your house. But if that happens, for the sake of keeping a civil society they should be detained at least overnight and have a bail set so that they have an incentive to not flee the country. As FK points out, there is a lot of possibly incriminating evidence yet to be analyzed and the guy can go where ever he wants.

But you are right, this isn't really self-defense. Zimmerman was pursuing a teenager on public property, not defending his own property against an offender. Nonetheless, he needs to answer for what he did in front of his peers.

 

[dautolover]

They're practically screaming, "This guy shot a kid for no reason!!! Get rid of guns!!!!!"

I agree with this. I see other issues here, but not guns.

Self-defense killings do happen, and more often than you think. But we never hear about them because they're kept private for a reason. I don't know why this case has churned up a public frenzy. This is not a typical self-defense case because we never hear about typical self-defense cases. I've got my suspicions as to why it turned into such a big deal but obviously my opinion doesn't matter until the case has been decided.

According to this article there were 326 "justifiable homicides" reported in 2010. It also notes an increase of justifiable homicides during that decade, mainly because new castle doctrines and "stand your ground" laws in various states made it possible to prosecute homicides as justifiable. This point is supported by the fact that total killings changed very little, while justifiable homicides went up drastically in some cases.

I think that there a couple factors as to why this case is special.

1) No gun was found on Martin

2) No wounds on Zimmerman (as shown in the videos in the detention center)
- These two make the "justifiable homicides"/"self-defense" argument very weak.

3) The race of the victim and what he was wearing

4) The neighborhood (mostly white)
- These two are about race.

5) Zimmerman was told to stand back, yet he followed Martin nevertheless. Unlike one of the most popular "stand your ground" cases, which involved a widow killing a burglar who had entered her home wielding a knife, the Martin case does not involve Martin entering a place and putting Zimmerman in danger. In fact, it was Zimmerman that decided to pursue Martin. And this presents some legal questions : does Zimmerman pursuing and confronting Martin (rather than it being the other way around) invalidate the "Stand Your Ground" argument? Did this confrontation make Zimmerman feel threatened? How, if there were no weapons involved? Does the lack of presence of weapons change anything?

Add all of this, and the fact that Zimmerman is still free, you get a pretty crazy case.

 

[dautolover]

Zimmerman was pursuing a teenager on public property, not defending his own property against an offender. Nonetheless, he needs to answer for what he did in front of his peers.

Didn't this happen at a gated community (does this make this property "non-public?)? And wasn't Zimmerman supposed to be keeping watch of the community?

These are other considerations that make the case even crazier...

 

[Dapper]

Didn't this happen at a gated community (does this make this property "non-public?)? And wasn't Zimmerman supposed to be keeping watch of the community?

These are other considerations that make the case even crazier...

I suppose it isn't public property, you are right. 👍

But still, Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground on his property.
And I heard (from his Bro I think) he was on his way to Target, meaning he was not patrolling as a community watch dude.

 

[dautolover]

But still, Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground on his property.
And I heard (from his Bro I think) he was on his way to Target, meaning he was not patrolling as a community watch dude.

True. Keef's article mentions that Florida expanded the "stand your ground" law to include confrontations that occur outside somebody's property.

To differentiate:
Castle Doctine: Where you're allowed to defend yourself if you're at your home/property
Stand Your Ground: Where you can defend yourself regardless if you're at your own home/property. This is Florida's particular law in question.

So Zimmerman was about to leave when he saw Martin, called the police, proceeded to follow and approach Martin, etc.? If the prosecution (once the damned trial begins) finds that Zimmerman's shift was over, then Zimmerman's protection against the stand your ground law is nearly done for.

 

[Northstar]

1) No gun was found on Martin

Since when do you need a gun to be threatening?

2) No wounds on Zimmerman (as shown in the videos in the detention center)

There are 2 things people for some reason fail to take into account.

1) He was taken into the police station after he was treated by medical staff, they usually wipe blood off.

2) Security cameras are usually rather low definition, sometimes they struggle just to get features of someones face.



I would rather wait until the medical report comes out(If it does at all) to make any conclusions as to whether or not he is injured.

3) The race of the victim and what he was wearing

4) The neighborhood (mostly white)
- These two are about race.

Neither of these should play into how the case is handled.

Add all of this, and the fact that Zimmerman is still free, you get a pretty crazy case.

As he should be, him being in jail would mean he would have been charged, from what I have seen the prosecutor would have a fairly weak case.

 

[Pupik]

Thats the Catch-22 in this situation.

If he spends a night in jail...unattended that is...he is probably gonna wake up a dead man.

Even if he was watched by security, he's gonna get hurt. He's a marked man.

The only option left is put him into protective custody.

There are separate wards in prison to keep other inmates from harm, especially if arrested before trial.

 

[sumbrownkid]

There are separate wards in prison to keep other inmates from harm, especially if arrested before trial.

My neighbor actually did time in jail, and believe him when he says inmates are some of the most clever people when it comes to hurting another.

And Foolkiller, yes I have watched other trials, and aggravating is a better word than pathetic.

But anyways, why is it Florida that gets bad rep for the legal system?

 

[buickgnx88]

FYI, you have no legal obligation to listen to the 911 operator, they are not a sworn law enforcement officer, thus even if he decided to follow after the 911 operator said to stand by, he wasn't breaking the law.

Also, what sort of information are some of you basing your idea that he did in fact to continue to follow and confront Martin?

 

[sumbrownkid]

The news did mention of witnesses hearing someone shouting for help, and a call record between trayvon and a girl right before it all went to 🤬

 

[dautolover]

Also, what sort of information are some of you basing your idea that he did in fact to continue to follow and confront Martin?

Well, had Zimmerman not followed and confronted Martin, Martin would still be alive... right?

Further, the 911 operator repeatedly kept asking Zimmerman if he was following Martin. Zimmerman kept telling the operator that he was, that he had seen Martin running away from him, and that he was going to see what was going on with the situation. The operator kept telling him that it was not necessary to pursue Martin.

Neither of these should play into how the case is handled.

Indeed, you are right. Race, nor the associations we often make about other people's skin color, should not play a role in the incident. But there's a difference between what should or should not happen, and what actually happened. The role of race goes to your question:

Since when do you need a gun to be threatening?

Indeed, you don't need to have a gun. But in this case, Martin never exhibited any suspicious behavior that warranted Zimmerman's 911 call nor Zimmerman's suspicions. While people are bogged down with the details of the confrontation, no one asks "what was so suspicious about Martin that made Zimmerman feel that he needed to call the police and to follow him in the first place."

Sure, as the facts suggest (vaguely), Martin began to run away from Zimmerman. Here, the general public can ask (and Zimmerman certainly did): "well if he hadn't done anything wrong, why did he run?" But there's another possible answer to Martin's running away: If you're being followed at night by some stranger, isn't possible to feel a sense of danger? A sensible thing to do after you feel endangered is to run, right?

For Zimmerman, what was so suspicious about Martin? Had Martin been older, white, and been wearing a Harvard sweater, would Zimmerman have called the police in the first place? My feeling is that no, he wouldn't have. But this all begs the question: how did Martin's skin color and wardrobe contribute to Zimmerman's feeling that Martin posed a threat. Does a certain skin color pose a threat?

So yes, race, in a perfect world, shouldn't matter. But the fact that there's a black kid dead, and given the circumstances, all of this suggests to me that race, that night, did matter.

This is why this case is so crazy.

 

[Sam48]

I'm a bit baffled as to how this case made it into the national spotlight when crimes just like this happen nearly every week or two in a town that neighbors mine (And they barely make it past my county line).

 

[FoolKiller]

My neighbor actually did time in jail, and believe him when he says inmates are some of the most clever people when it comes to hurting another.

Jail or prison?

But anyways, why is it Florida that gets bad rep for the legal system?

Adam Carolla has a game on his podcast where he plays a game called Germany or Florida. The news girl reads a messed up news story and they have to guess whether it is from Germany or Florida. Apparently it isn't just the legal system.

Also, what sort of information are some of you basing your idea that he did in fact to continue to follow and confront Martin?

Unless the confrontation took place just after the 911 operator told him to not pursue Martin it seems odd that the confrontation still occurred after he backed off.




And one thing has happened today that tells me what charge Zimmerman won't get at this point.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-shooting-no-grand-jury-zimmerman-161400993.html

Florida state attorney Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, said on Monday that the case will not go to a grand jury.

The decision does not rule out the possibility that George Zimmerman, Martin's shooter, could be arrested.

The grand jury had been set to meet Tuesday in Sanford, Fla., where the Feb. 26 shooting occurred.

"From the moment she was assigned, Ms. Corey noted she may not need a grand jury," a statement from Corey's office read. "The decision should not be considered a factor in the final determination of the case. At this time, the investigation continues and there will be no further comment from this office."

According to the Associated Press, Corey has "a reputation for not presenting cases before grand juries if it wasn't required." (Only first-degree murder cases require the use of grand juries in Florida, the AP noted.)

 

[disinfected]

I usually disregard anything celebrities have to say about these kinds of things, but I gained a lot of respect for this man today.

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2012/04/05/don_cheadle_slams_nbc_over_george_zimm

 

[a6m5]

Just to get this out of the way, Zimmerman seems to be a complete fool. A cop wanna be tool I wouldn't trust to bag my groceries.

Having said that, I'm not sure about the FoolKiller calling Trayvon Martin an unarmed innocent? Unarmed, yes. Innocent? I haven't been keeping tabs on this case, but do we not that for fact?

Anyway, like Omnis, I think this is a wait & see. As much as I'd like to see Zimmerman proven guilty, pay the full price for stupidity, legally, I think it's entirely possible that only crime committed that night was Trayvon attacking the neighborhood watchman.

When I was a kid, I used to fight all the time. If I was minding my own business one night, getting out of the house to pick up some junk food, if some suspicious looking creep(Zimmerman) was tailing me, I might have fought him. At that point, if that creep ended up being a neighborhood watch, I might have ended up committing the crime by jumping him, instead of talking to him. I might also have ended up getting shot.

Just pointing that out. I hope the authorities get to the bottom of it. Zimmerman should stop carrying a piece, because he is clearly an idiot. Like noted earlier, it could all be media's doing, but I'm thinking Zimmerman probably wanted to be a Batman, not a neighborhood watchman[/speculation]
Edit:

I usually disregard anything celebrities have to say about these kinds of things, but I gained a lot of respect for this man today.

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2012/04/05/don_cheadle_slams_nbc_over_george_zimm

I've always thought highly of Cheadle, but all this did was confirm his intelligence and level head. Major network rigging the story irresponsibly is nothing new either. They can be a complete whore at times.

 

[dautolover]

If I was minding my own business one night, getting out of the house to pick up some junk food, if some suspicious looking creep(Zimmerman) was tailing me, I might have fought him. At that point, if that creep ended up being a neighborhood watch, I might have ended up committing the crime by jumping him, instead of talking to him. I might also have ended up getting shot.

So you're suggesting that Martin could have attacked Zimmerman on self-defense?

 

[a6m5]

So you're suggesting that Martin could have attacked Zimmerman on self-defense?

While that is entirely possible, that was not what I was suggesting at all.

I was suggesting the possibility of this case being a teenager overreacting in confrontation with a neighborhood watchman. And as long as this possibility exist, we can't say for certain that Trayvon Martin was completely in the right(or innocent).

Don't get me wrong, I have very hard time believing the justification of this self-defense by Zimmerman. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that Zimmerman was a trigger happy fool.

 

[FoolKiller]

Having said that, I'm not sure about the FoolKiller calling Trayvon Martin an unarmed innocent? Unarmed, yes. Innocent? I haven't been keeping tabs on this case, but do we not that for fact?

Basing it on the 911 call and Zimmerman's own words.



"He's just walking around, looking about"

His own description of Martin's behavior sounds like the opposite of someone causing trouble. And then he even describes what sounds like Martin trying to get away when he realized he was being checked out.

While it is true that we need to wait and see nothing points toward Trayvon Martin doing more than he said he was going to do when he left the house, buy some Skittles.



And Zimmerman appears to have more trouble:

Zimmerman's Lawyers Withdraw from case

The two attorneys for George Zimmerman said Tuesday that they can no longer represent the neighborhood watch volunteer in the highly charged Trayvon Martin shooting case because they have lost contact with their onetime client.

At a late-afternoon news conference in Sanford, Fla., lawyers Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig expressed concern about Zimmerman’s emotional and physical well-being, saying he has taken actions without consulting them. They also said they do not know where Zimmerman is.

“You can stop looking in Florida,” Uhrig told reporters. “Look much further away than that.”

 

[a6m5]

Basing it on the 911 call and Zimmerman's own words.



"He's just walking around, looking about"

His own description of Martin's behavior sounds like the opposite of someone causing trouble. And then he even describes what sounds like Martin trying to get away when he realized he was being checked out.


While it is true that we need to wait and see nothing points toward Trayvon Martin doing more than he said he was going to do when he left the house, buy some Skittles.

This is the problem I have. At the time of this 911 call, yes, I would say it does not point to any wrongdoing by Trayvon Martin. But all this is how it led to the moment or incident in question, not the actual incident where supposed(I'm rolling my eyes) self-defense took place.

I am no investigator, or lawyer(as you know!), but the question is how this confrontation unfolded. If a neighborhood watch guy tails you, then it becomes "hey what you doin' here!" "stop following me you freak!",did Zimmerman identify himself? Did Trayvon Martin jump Zimmerman? Did Zimmerman draw(draw, not fire) his gun in self defense? Did Trayvon try to grab the firearm, take it away from Zimmerman? etc., etc.

As I said, I am damn near ignorant on the subject, but I see bit of gray area in a struggle, or fight like this. Had Zimmerman identified himself as the neighborhood watch member, and Trayvon instigated a fight out of frustration, overpowered Zimmerman, then try to take the gun away from him, is he still an innocent & guiltless victim?

I really hate this Zimmerman, because as I posted earlier, growing up, I could easily been in the situation this Martin kid ended up in. I was not a criminal, but I had some attitude. I took shortcuts, every guy I know did. And to run into some gun wielding cop wannabe tool, the grown up with the gun supposedly felt that his safety was in question shoots this kid. I don't doubt that Trayvon acted like a punk, being confronted by this creep. Many of us would have reacted similarly, not all of us respond like "I am so sorry, sir. Excuse me, I was just looking for shortcut, and if I bothered your gated community, I do apologize, it will not happen again. Can I just exit the same way I came in? Great, have nice evening George, it was pleasure meeting you...." If the adult in the situation like this show little more patience, restraint,or discretion, more kids will be dead. It's not like this kid came into somebody's house.

And Zimmerman appears to have more trouble:

Zimmerman's Lawyers Withdraw from case

I'm convinced that he's already made one deadly mistake. More mistakes would not surprise me a bit.

 

[FoolKiller]

This is the problem I have. At the time of this 911 call, yes, I would say it does not point to any wrongdoing by Trayvon Martin. But all this is how it led to the moment or incident in question, not the actual incident where supposed(I'm rolling my eyes) self-defense took place.

Police were on their way and Zimmerman had been instructed to stop following Trayvon. If Zimmerman did anything more then all the blame is on him. If Trayvon, heading out the entrance to the neighborhood, as Zimmerman describes it, suddenly circles back around and jumps Zimmerman, then Zimmerman has a case because he was only doing what he was supposed to do as neighborhood watch. The problem I have is, that doesn't make sense.

That said, no 17-year-old male ever makes sense, so we can't rule anything out.



Whatever the case, if Zimmerman left the state, as his former attorney suggested, during a homicide investigation he may have just destroyed any chance he had.

 

[a6m5]

Police were on their way and Zimmerman had been instructed to stop following Trayvon. If Zimmerman did anything more then all the blame is on him. If Trayvon, heading out the entrance to the neighborhood, as Zimmerman describes it, suddenly circles back around and jumps Zimmerman, then Zimmerman has a case because he was only doing what he was supposed to do as neighborhood watch. The problem I have is, that doesn't make sense.

I'm still hung up on if, who & how the attack was initiated. I think we both assume that Zimmerman went out of his way to make this incident happen. At the point in the 911 call, when the operator tells you that you don't need to follow the suspect, most people not retarded would stop. But I'm not sure if that action directly is a crime(you can spin many thing to make it criminal), and I highly doubt that police would have charged Zimmerman just for continuing to follow Martin.

However, instead of properly communicating, if Martin assaulted Zimmerman, now, that does sound like a crime to me, although the uncalled confrontation pretty much came up looking for him.

Edit: While we don't know how this went down for sure, I sense many gray areas in self-defense scenario that needs to be cleared up. I'm not the one who'd like to see criminal's rights valued or protected, but then, something like I described can happen at any time. I'm not gonna lie, I own & love guns. At the same time, I realize how dangerous firearms can be in these "defense" scenarios. I would love to see the guidelines, rules & regulations made more clear & uniformed across the country. Less misunderstandings the better.

 

[Solid Lifters]

 

[Sanji Himura]

No, I don't think Zimmerman did anything more to initiate the incident than being a concerned citizen and following a potential robbery suspect. You noticed that the media has doctored evidence to convict this man. First it was NBC not airing the full context of the 911 call, then it was ABC not showing the enhanced video of Zimmerman being dragged through Police headquarters to be questioned for five hours, and finally, it was CNN, who by one of their own reporter's own admission, questioned the network line about Zimmerman calling Martin a racial slur after a sound engineer enhanced the 911 tape.

That was three instances that the media is stirring up this frenzy. Ask yourself this question, why was Martin doing inside a gated community that was predominately white at night if he wasn't stirring up trouble? Answer: he had no business to be there.

EDIT: @Solid Lifters: I completely agree with the first minute of the video.

 

[a6m5]

youtube vid

Not to single out, but because I live here, I'm very annoyed by the racial diversity leading to multi-way racism. If this video featured a white man, by this funny political correctness and racial sensitivity in this country, it would actually seem very racist to many Americans. Regardless of race, the man is just speaking common sense.

He also points out the politics in this, which reminds me of politicians like Al Sharpton, or Jesse Jackson. Not that I follow those two, but I get the impression that their interest is in the divide between the blacks & the whites. They don't want to heal the wounds, unite the nation. They want to cash in on the continued racial conflict. I swear sometimes they seem like they go looking for smoke, so they can make it into fire.

Like pointed out in the video, more blacks are killed by blacks. Now, if Sharpton or Jackson showed more focus on that, fixing that, I can truly respect a man like that, and consider him a great leader of our time.

Instead, they usually fly in here in the defense of black criminal shot by the police, at least around here.

No, I don't think Zimmerman did anything more to initiate the incident than being a concerned citizen and following a potential robbery suspect. You noticed that the media has doctored evidence to convict this man. First it was NBC not airing the full context of the 911 call, then it was ABC not showing the enhanced video of Zimmerman being dragged through Police headquarters to be questioned for five hours, and finally, it was CNN, who by one of their own reporter's own admission, questioned the network line about Zimmerman calling Martin a racial slur after a sound engineer enhanced the 911 tape.

That was three instances that the media is stirring up this frenzy. Ask yourself this question, why was Martin doing inside a gated community that was predominately white at night if he wasn't stirring up trouble? Answer: he had no business to be there.

EDIT: @Solid Lifters: I completely agree with the first minute of the video.

I had the possibility of Trayvon Martin as a break-in suspect completely ruled out. As a result, at first, I thought you were nuts.

I still think that is a lot of assumption at this stage, but what hit me was, someone I know recently got arrested for similar crime. No criminal record. College student, good kid(used to play ball with him), rich parents, etc. Imagine our surprise when we heard that he was caught inside someone's home.

I'm just sharing my personal experience, and just saying that we shouldn't rule this out completely, not until we have more information.

 

[Pupik]

That was three instances that the media is stirring up this frenzy. Ask yourself this question, why was Martin doing inside a gated community that was predominately white at night if he wasn't stirring up trouble? Answer: he had no business to be there.

His father lived there.

Go back to the start of this thread, and do not pass go.

Anyone else notice that Zimmerman was previously involved in a domestic dispute with his fiancee and resisted a police officer while drunk already in his lifetime? No wonder he can't stand it when the cops tell him to back down from chasing down a teenager, he likely has a serious problem with authority.

Unfortunately, I don't think Zimmerman's going to get a fair trial, but without any absolutely damning evidence, he's pretty much scot-free to use a self-defense charge.

Adam Carolla has a game on his podcast where he plays a game called Germany or Florida. The news girl reads a messed up news story and they have to guess whether it is from Germany or Florida.

Gee, that's not loaded or anything: America's Wang that can't vote correctly, drive in the correct lane and has Disney World or America's least favorite aggressor nation that has predominately white people but generally has a better work ethic. I guess California, New York, and Texas never make the news, being the only states with more people in 'em than Florida, so right them must be.