Update 1.16 Physics Changes

[BrandonW77]

I think people really need to state whether they're using a wheel or a DS3 as I doubt someone on a DS3 would feel/notice some of these subtle changes. I'm not disparaging DS3 users, I've been beaten by plenty of pad drivers, it's just that some of these nuances cannot be communicated through a joystick and button, but they can be very noticeable on a wheel.

I have driven the RUF Yellowbird replica for more than 300 miles, I also have 2 other Yellowbird build that has at least 300 miles each. Spent most of the time testing and tuning at Tsukuba and Spa. The replica that I have been working on recently is Sport Auto 1988 version, with 1200+kg and 3 different distribution, 40/60 ; 32/68 and 37/63. The 32/68 and 37/63 uses exact same setup - The setup used in both replay : 38/62 distribution version, 1200+kg, 469PS, high lock LSD and corrected gearing. The tire is Comfort Medium to target real life lap record at 1:06.12 ( Best Motoring ) at Tsukuba.

I provided 2 best lap replay, both done on 1st lap. The 1.15 best lap was done about a week ago, 1:05.829, while the 1.16 was done recently with 1:05.808

What I can tell from driving the RUF, it has better braking reaction from the chassis ( weight being transferred ) - easily felt from the 1s turn entry and both hairpin and overall subtle difference in holding lateral load ( this can be felt on the left curve after the Dunlop esses and the last corner ). Back in 1.15 the RUF has some subtle braking traits that can easily overload/lock the front tires when nearing the apex so I have to be extra careful when modulating the brakes, in 1.16 it's tamer/easier to modulate at Tsukuba. While holding the line on the left curve after the Dunlop and last corner was more hairy back in 1.15, the traction/grip limit is the same however.

The RUF tune/setup hasn't been changed at all, including same BB and similar driving pace. Both best lap replay should be able to be exported to Motec file from within GT6 if anyone wishes to do more comprehensive analysis.

Both are done without any assist ( no ABS )

^ This man, arguably, knows more about the intimate details of Gran Turismo cars than most people on this board. If he says there's been a change, then there's been a change. 👍

So an improvement of 21 thousandths of a second at a course that emphasizes handling.

2 hundredths of a second difference at Tsukuba is probably equivalent to five tenths of a second at a longer track like Spa or Suzuka. Tsukuba is a basic, short track and it's very hard to extract much time from it when you're already close to the ultimate lap time. Also, different physics does not necessarily mean faster times. It could mean faster times, but not necessarily, especially if the changes are mostly FFB based. Being able to feel my suspension compressing/rebounding more isn't always going to make me faster, but it's likely to be noticeable and give me more smiles per mile.

 

[ColouredBadger]

I've found that the MR cars seem to be improved again. I had to change the tune on my R8 LMS Ultra because it began to understeer massively on my pre 1.16 setup. The tune is now more of a 'normal' tune with balanced springs and not one that is completely daft that is required to drive those rear-heavy cars. The overall balance seems to be improved and the car is easier to drive than it was before... I have definitely found a difference in feel of the rear heavy cars.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I went with option 3, should be easy to backup my position

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I have driven the RUF Yellowbird replica for more than 300 miles, I also have 2 other Yellowbird build that has at least 300 miles each. Spent most of the time testing and tuning at Tsukuba and Spa. The replica that I have been working on recently is Sport Auto 1988 version, with 1200+kg and 3 different distribution, 40/60 ; 32/68 and 37/63. The 32/68 and 37/63 uses exact same setup - The setup used in both replay : 38/62 distribution version, 1200+kg, 469PS, high lock LSD and corrected gearing. The tire is Comfort Medium to target real life lap record at 1:06.12 ( Best Motoring ) at Tsukuba.

I provided 2 best lap replay, both done on 1st lap. The 1.15 best lap was done about a week ago, 1:05.829, while the 1.16 was done recently with 1:05.808

What I can tell from driving the RUF, it has better braking reaction from the chassis ( weight being transferred ) - easily felt from the 1s turn entry and both hairpin and overall subtle difference in holding lateral load ( this can be felt on the left curve after the Dunlop esses and the last corner ). Back in 1.15 the RUF has some subtle braking traits that can easily overload/lock the front tires when nearing the apex so I have to be extra careful when modulating the brakes, in 1.16 it's tamer/easier to modulate at Tsukuba. While holding the line on the left curve after the Dunlop and last corner was more hairy back in 1.15, the traction/grip limit is the same however.

The RUF tune/setup hasn't been changed at all, including same BB and similar driving pace. Both best lap replay should be able to be exported to Motec file from within GT6 if anyone wishes to do more comprehensive analysis.

Both are done without any assist ( no ABS )

EDIT : Damn, just had a look at my replay data to make sure, the 1.15 replay has slightly different gearing ( 1st gear, 3rd gear and final ) The 1.15 has 4.000 final and 1.16 has 3.777, 3rd gear on 1.15 is 1.120, while 1.16 is 1.115 ( 0.005 difference )

Since 1st gear is not used on the lap, it doesn't have any effect, and 3rd is very small, while the lower final only allows slightly higher speed on redline, but at Tsukuba the performance difference is not much. I tinkered a bit the gearing before updating to 1.16

Edited my post with more infos on slight difference between 2 cars. Anyway, please compare both replays, I think they are very close.

The 1.15 car has 4.000 official final ratio, while the 1.16 car has 3.777 adjusted final to replicate real life top speed test RPM.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Nordschleife felt the same to me, too. I don't get the extra sensation of speed myself, but it could be caused by what I described, if that's what individuals latch onto.

The "wobble" is really very subtle. Initially I thought mass was more distributed within the body, then I realised that the body resists motion in different axes by different amounts. Previously, the vast majority of the dynamic character came from the suspension model, and the inertial behaviour of the body always felt a little simple - like it was constant density, spatially uniform etc.

Collisions are the same, but the way the body rotates as a result is subtly changed because of that change to the inertial model. The same applies to jumps, even though the way the ground "releases" the car hasn't changed.

Obviously the original figures for the previous inertial model would have been derived from the detailed data available to PD, so they would have been a sort of average value.

Performance, and hence lap times will not be affected greatly by this change as a result, because the average effect will be similar. It is just those tiniest instants, during the more dynamic maneuvres, e.g. turn in, brake or throttle onset, riding curbs, hitting large bumps, clipping scenery etc. that the difference presents itself.

I have a strong suspicion that downforce masks the effect, perhaps indirectly (e.g. stiffer structures to support the extra load - the only degrees of freedom the body has to move are through the suspension and tyres).

Maybe @Griffith500 can help give more insight on the changes

 

[Nielsen]

All I know is that GT6 physics didn't feel right when the game came out in 2013. Today I took the Honda S2000 '06 for a drive on Spa and everything just felt so intuitive and right! At the end of they day, that's all that matters.

If only PDI made games like they make virtual cars handle, oh the potential.

 

[hasslemoff]

Done some testing luckily I have a few cars set up to run set lap times around certain tracks and can consistently run them close each lap.

The cars and tracks

• Ferrari 512b, Trial mountain: low to mid 1'36's pre 1.16 / low to mid 1'36's after 1.16
• Skyline pace car, Apricot hill Reverse: low to mid 1'34's pre 1.16 / low to mid 1'34's after 1.16

These two cars were setup to run in this WRS Career Championship all the settings were exactly the same.

To me there is no difference in the physics, but I did notice more response in FFB (dfgt) it could of been that I was taking more notice and the cars felt the same as before the update.

Also tested Mazda Roadster TC which I ran a race in just before the update on Matterhorn Riffelse and again found no difference in lap times but it felt like the FFB went a bit lighter than before when you go over the crest of the first turn, again it could be me taken more notice.

 

[Griffith500]

I felt a difference with DS3. I primarily used "soft" road cars, stock on CM tyres, no aids (including ABS). I sampled several cars on several tracks, on and off road, various driving styles. I don't keep track of lap times, as they're irrelevant to the way I drive: I'm all about the connection, and enjoying the idiosyncrasies of different cars.

My immediate impression was one of how the car rotated, in all three axes. The effect was in transitions only. Reactions felt tauter, more immediate, but they continue past the point of inception, more pendulous - this is the heftiness people notice. It's fundamentally a change in the body inertia.

There was no perceptible difference in grip, which you can only assess in relatively steady situations anyway.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

There's definitely been some tinkering with the physics engine. Weight distribution and weight transfer is more apparent.

1) This week's seasonal at Spa I used the GT86. Normally if I mess up the line going up Eau Rouge I just put my foot down and use the run off at the exit no problem. After physics change, if I mess up the line I get a huge tankslapper at the crest of the hill. Never had that happen before.

2) I drive the Nismo GT-R GT3 every day for half a year now to prep for GT Academy. I change the track every week but I get a pretty good idea of how it handles before the update. After the update I can feel the heavy front end pushing more in the slow corners. In high speed corners downforce negates this and it's not as apparent. Interestingly the lap times stays the same.

3) I have a Huayra tuned to 650PP on SS tires as a "control" car for physics changes. Before the update it can do 2.02 laptime comfortably around Ascari. After the update the rear end steps out a lot easier under sudden weight shifts (braking, accel and quick direction changes at the chicanes). I could only get 2.03 and it's definitely harder to string together a good lap.

I can see how people with DS3 or not so consistent drivers may say there is no physics changes, because the effect is really subtle. And if you're naturally a smooth driver you won't notice the punishing effect of the new weight transfer physics. But there is definitely a difference from before, and I'm glad that PD is moving in the right direction even though they're still not quite PC sims level 👍

 

[hornet_burnout]

G25 here, 2 more hours of driving and it definitely feels better due to weight transfers. I can even see it on the replays. Bloody awesome.

I had almost given up on playing cause it felt a bit too synthetic in general, now I can't get enough of it. Cars feel very alive and incredibly responsive to inputs while driving on the edge. May be undetectable for DS3 users, and even a bit disconcerting to "computer drivers" used to exact braking, apex and acceleration points. You can now take corners in any fashion or style you like, as you do IRL. I had a lot of trouble drifting before, now it just comes naturally, even in normal racing or time attack.

 

[Thomas2012]

I feel like there's a bit of a difference but I can't really tell if it's now placebo or actually there. I'll have to do more testing.
Edit: I think it's just placebo.

 

[GT_Alex74]

Z32 on Trial Mountain, DGFT, CS, bone stock, fresh from the dealership.

26/02 evening : 01:43.905 on lap 3
27/02 early afternoon : 01:43.920 on lap 2

Exact same feel, exact same reactions to bumps, curbs, dirt drops, banked corners, direction changes, subtle driving, brutal driving, trying to do reverse-entries...

A whole day online didn't changed my point of view. It think it's just since the first post stating there were changes in physics, people are paying more attention, thus a placebo effect (or DS3 specific tweaking). I myself pay attention to cars reactions on a daily basis for my time board comments.

I may try a few other cars I did recently, but don't expect more difference.

 

[sk8er913]

I voted no. But then I read the op and saw.
"under braking/acceleration" and remembered that I spun under braking twice yesterday.

 

[Griffith500]

I find it interesting that certain people are claiming it must be DS3 specific, whereas others are claiming it is wheel-specific.

Notice that the descriptions of perceived changes have been consistent in the underlying cause, even when the point of recognition and actual language differs.

I also notice a difference between what the robots report and what the seat-of-the-pantsers report.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I have not noticed any change in physics at all with this update using a G27. As most of you know, I drive many, many miles each and every day in all types of cars. I tune cars and run regular hot laps using stock, unmodified, cars. It is with this experience and amount of game play that I base my opinion on that there has been no physics changes with this update. Thank you.

 

[Speedracer8218]

I usually run the Megane QM at least 2 hrs every night and I haven't seen any changes in the physics or weight transfer post 1.16 update.

My laps times remained about the same and I still throw this MR car around the track and not offset its balance, and the "feel" is just as it was before. I believe if the cars "gained weight" after 1.16 my Megane would understeer in the tight turns without me braking a little sooner, but it doesn't.

DS3 user here for those wondering

 

[Johnnypenso]

Anyone have any Motec comparisons to share?

 

[sparkytooth]

I've been playing for extended periods of time since 1.16's release yesterday on my DS3, and I haven't noticed much of a change, most seem to agree that there has been a subtle change to the way the machines handle weight and inertia. Jumping seems to have changed for the better and that's about it.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Anyone have any Motec comparisons to share?

Anyone who have downloaded my replays can export them to Motec data files and do data analysis/comparison. I haven't got the time to do it Maybe you can If the slight gearing changes deemed not fit for comparison, I may run the car again on 1.16 with same exact gearing in 1.15

I think the difference/changes is very subtle, the RUF with it's RR layout and pendulum like rotation made it easier to feel. I also drove the Diablo GT with 40/60 distribution ( have been testing a lot to build Diablo SV-R and GTR replica on SS/RH, slight changes can be felt ( this was at Suzuka which the Diablo had issue on left up hill Dunlop Curve entry - right after the S curves. ) Back in 1.15, the Diablo easily pushed right after the apex ( during the climb ) and applying more steering often leads to the rear break traction and slide. This is less pronounced on 1.16 on exact same tune, although the low speed front tire is still very sensitive ( very high grip compared to the rear tires - only when Racing tire fitted ) Which made me believe there's no changes in tire grip level.

 

[Eugenizer]

Hi There! I think there was a slight change... I've done about 20.000 km on the Nürburg Ring 24h Layout so far. Most of wich in the Audi R8 lms (about 4000km) and After I've done the new seasonals and tested some cars on Midfield I thought that braking in to corners was a litle... Different... So I went to do "the Ring thing" And i've noticed that on turn in under braking i was More likley to lock up the front tires (with abs 1!) and obviously go in to understeer... I used to have a quite conservative suspension setup to avoid snap oversteer on the way in while having lesser downfoce on the tail to increase topspeed... So softened up the suspension up front a little, which worked perfectly for me. Then I've tested some other cars and experemented with weight Distribution and therefore
adding weight and stuff... My conclusion? Weight and wehre it's placed is a little more important now, which is nice! But I
can't say that it effects the lap times dramaticly if at all...obviously I did not get the exact same times I did before but I'm not a pro Racing driver and the Ring is long so 0.5 of a second more or less I'd say is not really a change in lap times on that distance... it just feels better to me. And for the log I use a G27 wheel, and abs only on cars which have it in real life too other than that no aids... You get the idea I'm one of those "try to do as if it's the real thing" Guys. So there you go: change? I'd say a bit... But I don't think it's to dramatic so if some people don't think so, I would understand.

Edit: now I'm quite sure that there has been a change. Why? Because I've experienced the things I wrote, before I visited gtp and as I got here and saw this thread and read the op, I thought: "there you have to give your mustard to "(german for telling what you think) and After I've done the writing I read the other replys, basically telling the same... Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[ron86]

I primarily used "soft" road cars, stock on CM tyres, no aids (including ABS). I sampled several cars on several tracks, on and off road, various driving styles. I don't keep track of lap times, as they're irrelevant to the way I drive: I'm all about the connection, and enjoying the idiosyncrasies of different cars.

Nice to see someone who shares pretty much the same goal in playing GT6 - driving different cars (in their stock form with their stock tires) just for they joy of it 👍

 

[hardvibes]

Yes.
There's no placebo effect. I drove the Mégane at Nurb GP in quick match many times before the update and now it corners better with the same tune.

I think people really need to state whether they're using a wheel or a DS3 as I doubt someone on a DS3 would feel/notice some of these subtle changes.

DS3 here and I definitely noticed the difference.

Where in particular?
Turn 1-3-4-6-8-11-12

 

[VBR]

I've done about 2,000 miles on The Ring 24 Hour in my trusty stock KTM Street, & know that car/track combo like the back of my hand. Gonna test & report back soon.


👍

I can confirm that there has been a change. Whether that's a change due to a physics update, or an FFB update, or both - I'm not sure.

What's changed? The lateral weight shift effects are now much more pronounced. This can be felt more when you oversteer, as the force pulling the wheel in the opposite direction is much stronger now. The result is that you can feel oversteer more, & can thus correct it easier. There is more weight when you are turning, even in cars that have power steering. Also, when hitting the kerbs it all feel a little bit more meatier.

When I had the privilege of driving a Caterham 7 Superlight at a track day once, I noted just how much force you feel through the wheel when the back end steps out. It was never nearly enough in Gran Turismo, although it was there, just about. Now it feels much more realistic, & wheel users should find themselves spinning out less & able to catch more slides.

However, there is still no longitudinal weight shift present at all. You should feel the wheel go light under throttle from a standing start, it go heavier under engine breaking (lift off), & get heavier under braking. Sadly, GT doesn't model any of this. That said, it does model the changes regarding how easy it is to steer the faster you go. At a dead stop it is heavy (although nowhere near enough compared to reality), under 50kph it is heavy, & then gets progressively lighter the faster you go.

The conclusion? FFB feels much better in the 1.16 update, this stronger lateral weight shift is something I've wanted since I started using an FFB wheel, & I am very happy now.

Incidentally, when I tried Project CARS on the stock FFB settings, I was unable to feel any real lateral weight shift upon oversteer. Hopefully this can be turned up in some menu somewhere.

When I did my tests yesterday, the cars used were a KTM Street on CS tyres & an Aston Martin V12 Vantage on SH (both stock). However, when I later tested my trusty Lotus Esprit V8 on CS tyres it felt exactly the same as it always had. Maybe this change is only affecting certain cars, it would explain why some people are reporting a change while others are not. I then tested my Mazda Roadster stock on CM tyres & that felt different just like the first two cars.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

It could be that this supposed change only affects cars that already has a pronounced F/R weight difference. IIRC, the X-bow is rear heavy, the Aston the opposite, and the Lotus is fairly neutral. The MX-5 is FR, but isn't it like 50/50 in its weight dist? That would put a hole in my little theory then.

 

[VBR]

Maybe the new FFB is just a bug byproduct of the change to the Red Bull cars FFB?

 

[Griffith500]

I notice a change without FFB.

Anyone have any Motec comparisons to share?

What are you expecting to see, one way or the other?

It could be that this supposed change only affects cars that already has a pronounced F/R weight difference. IIRC, the X-bow is rear heavy, the Aston the opposite, and the Lotus is fairly neutral. The MX-5 is FR, but isn't it like 50/50 in its weight dist? That would put a hole in my little theory then.

Weight isn't just distributed fore and aft.

Weight positioned to one side (of the mass centroid) contributes a polar moment of inertia just the same as it would fore or aft of that centroid.

The interaction between the axis of rotation and the centre of mass determines how much each discrete lump of mass is accelerated. Summing those over the car's body for different axes of rotation gives you something to work with in the game.

The Esprit has a backbone chassis, incidentally, contributing to good mass centralisation. I wonder if it's fuel mass being accounted for?

 

[hornet_burnout]

OK, final words upon some more testing.

First of all, the poll should only have two options:
a) Yes there is
b) I can't feel it

Cause if you can't feel the difference, that is the only thing you can state. It doesn't mean others can't feel it and that it isn't there (trust me we're not all hallucinating, some feel it with a wheel, others with controller, I feel it with both).

Which leads me to the second statement that will probably get me a lot of hate that is: if you really can't feel it, then I'm just sorry for you cause this is undoubtedly the best car handling since GT4 in terms of realistic "feel", it's really sad so many can't get to enjoy it.

(thread unsubscribed)

 

[hasslemoff]

Cause if you can't feel the difference, that is the only thing you can state. It doesn't mean others can't feel it and that it isn't there (trust me we're not all hallucinating, some feel it with a wheel, others with controller, I feel it with both).

We most all be hallucinating if we don't notice any difference then, I must not go on gt6 after going out on a Friday.

I've seen people say in this thread that it's a new effect on weight distribution. If its a new effect how come not everyone can feel it, i've heard more people say there is no difference and they cannot see or feel anything different.

How can people feel the weight distribution effect ?
Whats the best way to notice the new difference ?
What am I looking for ?
Some ideas into how to help the people like me who say they feel no difference and what to compare it to ?

These would be a great help instead of assuming that were all of our rockers for not noticing a difference. The questions are not just for the person I quoted.

All the cars and combo's I tried I notice'd no difference, stock, tuned, abs and no abs and I do think I was taking more notice in the ffb which is why I felt more of the kerbs and bumps.


Explanations in a simple form would be must appreciated as I'm not the brightest and get confused with complicated answers.

 

[super_gt]

Looks like 1.16 physics improvement is undercover
If there was a significant physics improvement the poll vote would have been 100% YES
There is no physics improvement for me.

 

[brian wolf]

My testing has proved inconclusive. Laptimes and handling appear to be unchanged, FFB may have been tweaked. The only recent v1.15 replay data I have is GT300 at Tsukuba, testing for a recent FITT challenge. I appreciate that a 500pp racecar on RH tyres may not show the subtleties of a minor physics change. But, it was the only data I had to do an accurate comparison.

Settings - Arcade mode. Grip to real. ABS1 only. DFGT 10 and 10

v1.15 laptime - 55.191 TOP OF SCREEN

v1.16 laptime - 54.980 BOTTOM OF SCREEN