Views on this move

[kilesa4568]

Looked perfectly fine to me but I'm going to stick around for the comments on it. Much more entertaining.

 

[stpatty]

If the other guy was using the radar he could have corrected his entry at the point of contact. Take a shallower line when you see the dive (read; "dive" doesn't always mean "dirty") and set yourself up as well as possible for the rest of the S.

You guys are crazy, that was a clean move. You don’t have to be alongside before braking, but before turn-in. If that was the case, nobody could ever “outbrake” someone and call it clean. Dude should’ve protected the inside, or braked later and taken the wider line to contest the position. If you think this is the type of move you only see in low ranked lobbies, you’ve probably never raced in top split. Dude was incredibly unaware, probably wasn’t using radar and now he’s mad. LOLz.

Especially in a race with high tire wear and all compounds being used. The differences in grip is potentially astronomical, so moves like this should be expected. It takes two to overtake and clearly this guy wasn’t participating based on his obvious lack of awareness. I mean, what kind of driver doesn’t see this move coming?

This pretty much sums up the rest of my thoughts. If someone's forcing you narrow on the straight that leads to a big braking zone, don't just assume because you've moved across that there's not going to be any movement.

 

[Groundfish]

Miles too far back, black and white to me. You are so far back he moves from the inside defensive line to a middling line as he rightfully feels you are far enough back not to be impeded by him widening his approach.

Way, way too far back.

On this track, I would have positioned for the best possible exit and passed into the left at the end of the next straight which is far, far less likely to end in tears.

Yep.

 

[Winnie847]

Just because you can stop by apex doesn’t make it clean lol
A block pass would be a dirty move, .
Look I’m sounding high and mighty here but nobody’s perfect and I make mistakes online all the time.
But, putting up a move here for everyone and asking for input is an open question.
I’m answering in a way that I hope helps someone. Advanced drivers do many things others shouldn’t think about.

Further when advanced drivers start at the back and make late moves on inexperienced and lesser skilled drivers...It gives me mixed emotions big time.
The A plus will say and maybe be right that they got turned in on.
That’s objectively verifiable.
But, you gotta ask yourself what did you expect? Further an A plus passing a B is not a show of skill. It’s seal clubbing.
I race from the back. Just yesterday a lower ranked driver brakes way too much on a turn and I hit him not expecting that.
Was it his fault? Or was it mine for not qualifying?
In any event had I qualified he would not have been crashed out on that turn.
Anyways, I don’t think I see average drivers who know how to overtake clean.
Clean is NO DOUBT. You win inside, stay next to them close nose to nose, the line is yours.

the rules of racecraft don't change based on driver level or skill, or position on the grid. Fast people have incidents and end up in the backfield all the time, that doesn't mean the rules and guidelines change. Imagine the chaos and confusion if they did.

and no, just because you can stop by the apex doesn't make it clean...there is clearly much more context than that. Context which has been discussed in detail in this thread, so don't ignore that.

From you I'm hearing a lot of "I would have done this differently" or "this move was ill-advised and could have been prevented by being more conservative"

What I'm not hearing from you is "this is exactly what makes this move illegal or dirty and here are examples to support it."

What did you expect you ask? I expect all drivers to adhere to at least a similar standard of driving and racecraft, no matter their skill level. That's literally why rules exist, not just in racing, but in driving on highways and city streets. Rules are there so everybody knows what everyone else is doing in theory, and can anticipate it. If there is a car alongside of you, don't turn in because you'll hit that car. Just like staying between the lines in your lane...it's expected.

Your anecdotes about A+ passing a B driver not being a show of skill are moot because that has nothing to do with this convo. Nobody is flexing or trying to show skill, it's a practice lobby for the real thing tomorrow night.

The way you conduct your root cause analysis is interesting to say the least. Just because you could have avoided an incident by not qualifying does not mean that it's your fault for doing so. That's no different than saying "if I wasn't racing this never would have happened." How silly is that? That's essentially tossing rules and racecraft out the window. If I was never born, I'd never have any incidents.

 

[Groundfish]

What I'm not hearing from you is "this is exactly what makes this move illegal or dirty and here are examples to support it."

Looks to me like if you took the position of those cars at the point where the Gran Turismo Yellow driving line (which is a good line on that corner) turns in towards apex, that ASH front bumper isn’t even to the other players rear wheels.
That’s what would be dirty, coming from half a second back and straight lining towards apex.
If that’s not the case (If ASH is nose to nose before that point I’m just wrong and that was a clean move.)
Then I will happily eat crow.

What did you expect you ask? I expect all drivers to adhere to at least a similar standard of driving and racecraft, no matter their skill level.

Not everyone’s A plus or has A plus awareness and anticipation. Certainly not a B rank in GTS on NA. You can’t expect them to be expert, and racecraft is a huge skill all players work on all the time. Not everyone is at a good level or the same.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Just because you can stop by apex doesn’t make it clean lol
A block pass would be a dirty move, .
Look I’m sounding high and mighty here but nobody’s perfect and I make mistakes online all the time.
But, putting up a move here for everyone and asking for input is an open question.

This, because you can jump on the brake and keep to the apex doesn't mean it is now the other guy's problem, if you are too far he just is not going to expect it.

 

[Winnie847]

Yep.

the problem with this, is that you can't just say "way too far back" because what does that really mean? too far back is subjective, different for different people. this is literally why rules exist, to remove subjectivity. clearly he was not too far back, since he made the apex and was alongside before turn-in. views like this are what muddy's the waters and confuses things that shouldn't be confusing.

 

[FPV MIC]

This, because you can jump on the brake and keep to the apex doesn't mean it is now the other guy's problem, if you are too far he just is not going to expect it.

It kind of does. Haven't you guys ever watched Daniel Ricciardo. There's two video's on the previous page showing that type of overtake and both were deemed legal.

Here's some more from DR (the one I've time stamped is from a long, long way back, and the one after is almost the same as the one in this thread).

 

[Winnie847]

Looks to me like if you took the position of those cars at the point where the Gran Turismo Yellow driving line (which is a good line on that corner) turns in towards apex, that ASH front bumper isn’t even to the other players rear wheels.
That’s what would be dirty, coming from half a second back and straight lining towards apex.
If that’s not the case (If ASH is nose to nose before that point I’m just wrong and that was a clean move.)
Then I will happily eat crow.



Not everyone’s A plus or has A plus awareness and anticipation. Certainly not a B rank in GTS on NA. You can’t expect them to be expert, and racecraft is a huge skill all players work on all the time. Not everyone is at a good level or the same.

again, you're talking about imaginary stuff.. the yellow driving line? come on. if I followed GT's brake points and driving lines I'd be 1-2s slower per lap.

nobody is asking for everyone to have A+ skill or be an expert. Using radar and mirrors and the lookback button isn't exactly high level stuff.

 

[Groundfish]

again, you're talking about imaginary stuff.. the yellow driving line? come on. if I followed GT's brake points

Dude turn on that line and tell me it’s not the fast line there that everyone drives...
The point is all about the racing line and who has right to take it.
GTS has no rules though excepting don’t look bad so there’s that.
The yellow line IS the line for that corner.
Anyways I am just maintaining that if you have not gotten position by turn in and you continue by cutting the normal line at full brake to attempt overtake it’s a dirty move.
I don’t care what else happens to me you do it I’ll be pissed.
As I said I think ASH was not meeting that unwritten rule to win the corner by getting nose to nose at turn in point.
Everyone hates people diving there.
If ASH fairly won the corner relative to the standard racing line I will go edit my posts with an apology to him and everyone.
Looking though I think the odds of that are astronomically low because he dove straight in to apex at full brake and got in a crash.

 

[meekrab]

Looks like a good attempt at a move to me. The Porsche probably could have kept the position by just going around you, since you're moving about a snail's pace at the time of the impact to make that super tight line work.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I think it's a fair move, you got to the inside and didn't run wide into him. If anything you were too courteous which caused the contact, by slowing down to make sure you're giving him space you both get to the apex at the same time. Sometimes being more assertive and running it in deeper actually helps, tell him who is boss early on .

 

[Ashthebash]

I think it's a fair move, you got to the inside and didn't run wide into him. If anything you were too courteous which caused the contact, by slowing down to make sure you're giving him space you both get to the apex at the same time. Sometimes being more assertive and running it in deeper actually helps, tell him who is boss early on .

This did cross my mind, that releasing the brake a little earlier would mean I'd have slipped past well before the apex, then just need to gather it up, slow it down around the right and power out. As you say what I've done is effectively brake to be able to get tight onto the racing line without running wider

 

[Ashthebash]

Looks to me like if you took the position of those cars at the point where the Gran Turismo Yellow driving line (which is a good line on that corner) turns in towards apex, that ASH front bumper isn’t even to the other players rear wheels.




Not everyone’s A plus or has A plus awareness and anticipation. Certainly not a B rank in GTS on NA. You can’t expect them to be expert, and racecraft is a huge skill all players work on all the time. Not everyone is at a good level or the same.

You do realise that he had gone defensive? Meaning that neither of us would have been anywhere near the mythical yellow line anyway? (which is way off at many places on the game from what I've seen, tends to turn in early)

Also this guy in the Porsche is A+, I don't think he saw me go hence the turn in but I think he should have seen me. I would have seen the move coming WAY before turning in (and possibly still have a couple of examples of it from the Gr.4 race last series). But then I'd have been kicking myself for opening the door and being mugged, and not seen fit to go for a 'revenge' ram followed by some post race abuse

Nice to open up a bit of a debate though

 

[Groundfish]

You do realise that he had gone defensive? Meaning that neither of us would have been anywhere near the mythical yellow line anyway? (which is way off at many places on the game from what I've seen, tends to turn in early)

Also this guy in the Porsche is A+, I don't think he saw me go hence the turn in but I think he should have seen me. I would have seen the move coming WAY before turning in (and possibly still have a couple of examples of it from the Gr.4 race last series). But then I'd have been kicking myself for opening the door and being mugged, and not seen fit to go for a 'revenge' ram followed by some post race abuse

Nice to open up a bit of a debate though

The yellow line turns in at the perfect point on that corner.
I’m just saying put up the racing line and show that you had acquired corner rights before that. Then I’ll concede and admit I’m wrong.
Him going defensive doesn’t mean you fill the scuba tanks man.
Him going defensive doesn’t change the cars position relative to the racing line.
The guy got pissed because of your poor etiquette imo.
Yes he DID go defensive.
That’s why he got pissed at you, or maybe it was something you did before but we can’t see that.
In any case corner rights are what they are, if I’m seeing car positions wrong then show it.
Ok look at this photo from the move...

Is this overlap sufficient?

 

[FPV MIC]

The yellow line turns in at the perfect point on that corner.
I’m just saying put up the racing line and show that you had acquired corner rights before that. Then I’ll concede and admit I’m wrong.
Him going defensive doesn’t mean you fill the scuba tanks man.
Him going defensive doesn’t change the cars position relative to the racing line.
The guy got pissed because of your poor etiquette imo.
Yes he DID go defensive.
That’s why he got pissed at you, or maybe it was something you did before but we can’t see that.
In any case corner rights are what they are, if I’m seeing car positions wrong then show it.

The racing line hasn't got anything do with it, and if the other guy had stayed off the racing line and run down the inside all the way to the corner like most people would have done @Ashthebash wouldn't have been able to pull the old bait'n'switch.

Probably a case of...

 

[Groundfish]

The racing line hasn't got anything do with it

Yes, it does, in racing. Now this being a video game...
If you look where those cars are, relative to the shadow, you can see just how blatant of a dive it is.

 

[FPV MIC]

Yes, it does, in racing. Now this being a video game...
If you look where those cars are, relative to the shadow, you can see just how blatant of a dive it is.

Only for lap times, and if he wasn't far enough up and couldn't make the apex... but he could make the apex and he was far enough up.

 

[Ashthebash]

The yellow line turns in at the perfect point on that corner.
I’m just saying put up the racing line and show that you had acquired corner rights before that. Then I’ll concede and admit I’m wrong.
Him going defensive doesn’t mean you fill the scuba tanks man.
Him going defensive doesn’t change the cars position relative to the racing line.
The guy got pissed because of your poor etiquette imo.
Yes he DID go defensive.
That’s why he got pissed at you, or maybe it was something you did before but we can’t see that.
In any case corner rights are what they are, if I’m seeing car positions wrong then show it.
Ok look at this photo from the move...View attachment 995137
Is this overlap sufficient?

Yes, he's not pointing anywhere near the apex, in fact he hasn't started turning in so the overlap there is more than sufficient. Fact is he turns in a few metres later when I'm FULLY alongside

And your magical racing line...

Just a still taken from YouTube of the approach to the penultimate corner. Anyone following that yellow line religiously needs their head read, it's on the wrong side of the track

 

[Jump_Ace]

Looks fine to me. He failed to shut the door on you and instead decided not to give you any room and 'nudge' you. if he was more skilled he would've avoided the collision, allowing you to be on the outside for the next turn. Who knows what may have happened then, and then for the following left afterward. It could've been an epic battle. But alas, GTS is so dry and everyone is all about their rank instead of having fun and encouraging those kinds of close battles just to see how it plays out.

Jerome

 

[Groundfish]

Only for lap times, and if he wasn't far enough up and couldn't make the apex... but he could make the apex and he was far enough up.

View attachment 995141

Look the line on that corner starts turning in at the shadows right side.
In order to overtake you ought to have a good overlap there.
Your photo shows him t boning the guy lol.
Here’s a hint, if the guy ahead is already turning AND you’re not overlapped, THEN you hit him, You might piss people off pretty bad.
Strangely enough Ash says the guy was A plus and got really pissed off.
Well what do you thinks gonna happen when you send in a dive and t bone him?
Smh. For reference here’s the line. You’re turning right here.

Now go watch and see where was ASH at this point? Locked up full brake down the inside no overlap. Gee I wonder why the driver got so angry?
Triple smh
I’m done here
Also that last line put up is fine for a mid 29 or so time on softs in a gr3.
Maybe Ash you are much faster.
I digress though. It’s not life and death here. It was just a lobby. Might as well divebomb everyone.

 

[HaydenFan69]

I know there's probably a thread for this type of thing but can't find it so if there is I imagine it'll end up there

Done a lobby, and made a move late in the race on a car ahead. It is from a long way back, but I'm on better tyres and have better brakes so I know it's a possibility. After he covers the inside down the straight I move out of the tow early to see if he opens the inside back up, which he does, and I switch back up the inside to make the move on the brakes



The contact from my perspective is him not seeing me or just not thinking I might have gone for it and he's turned in, because as the on board shows I'm making the apex quite comfortably and I'm alongside. I'm not suggesting there should have been penalties anywhere, just suggesting that maybe this move - while bold - wasn't dirty and didn't warrant a retaliatory ram into T4 (which ghosted) and plenty of post race abuse

Thoughts?

(It'll be interesting to see all the different viewpoints on this, I can imagine they'll be varied!!)

He moved a lane up in effect blocking you. I know people wil argue how is he supposed to hold that line into the corner. That’s on him to figure out.

Other than than, it’s whatever. If you want to feel guilty, go ahead. Or you want to blame him for driving down on you, go ahead. Both made it out fine. Lost a few seconds from the ordeal, but didn’t end anyone’s race.

@Ashthebash, don’t let this incident deter you from trying that move again. Be aggressive. Be... Be... Agressive! Because you were going to overtake the French driver prior to him coming down on you (whether or not he saw you).

 

[NevilleNobody]

Groundfish is right, and tbh this is why this corner causes so much grief. At times it looks like there's room there but the door shuts much faster than say a 90 degree turn (think the last corner at bathurst).

 

[FPV MIC]

Look the line on that corner starts turning in at the shadows right side.
In order to overtake you ought to have a good overlap there.
Your photo shows him t boning the guy lol.
Here’s a hint, if the guy ahead is already turning AND you’re not overlapped, THEN you hit him, You might piss people off pretty bad.
Strangely enough Ash says the guy was A plus and got really pissed off.
Well what do you thinks gonna happen when you send in a dive and t bone him?
Smh. For reference here’s the line. You’re turning right here.
View attachment 995143

Now go watch and see where was ASH at this point? Locked up full brake down the inside no overlap. Gee I wonder why the driver got so angry?
Triple smh
I’m done here
Also that last line put up is fine for a mid 29 or so time on softs in a gr3.
Maybe Ash you are much faster.
I digress though. It’s not life and death here. It was just a lobby. Might as well divebomb everyone.

If you're expecting to turn in from way out there when a car is hot on your heels then you can expect that hole that you can put a truck into to be filled every single time. Don't complain when someone fills it, just cover the inside line! It's that simple!

 

[kilesa4568]

@Groundfish @NevilleNobody

If this was done to you, would you retaliate too?

 

[Ashthebash]

He moved a lane up in effect blocking you. I know people wil argue how is he supposed to hold that line into the corner. That’s on him to figure out.

Other than than, it’s whatever. If you want to feel guilty, go ahead. Or you want to blame him for driving down on you, go ahead. Both made it out fine. Lost a few seconds from the ordeal, but didn’t end anyone’s race.

@Ashthebash, don’t let this incident deter you from trying that move again. Be aggressive. Be... Be... Agressive! Because you were going to overtake the French driver prior to him coming down on you (whether or not he saw you).

Thanks

Oh don't worry it won't change my approach, I was just interested to see how people's opinions would be - and it's pretty much what I expected. I'm not even too bothered about the contact in the video - I put that down to either surprising him or him not seeing me - I was more concerned with the reaction I got (although I didn't share the vid of that).

My view of the move remains that while audacious and from a long way back, it wasn't dirty or reckless and didn't warrant the reaction

 

[OJBrit]

You talk of overlap but this is a corner where it is not relevant. A corner with a shorter run and braking zone such as Bico de Pato it would be relevant and your comments about overlap completely correct.
Senna S has a long straight and a heavy braking zone. Therefore you can move later without overlap and this is literally what most moves look like into this corner. In fact I bet someone could pull from YouTube someone doing this move in real life.

 

[watto79]

If a move is considered "dirty" if you don't have any overlap before you start braking then I guess this overtake was also an outrageously dirty divebomb? Ignore the Hyundai that outbraked themselves but I had zero overlap on the other McLaren, so I was being dirty?



If the inside is open and you can make the corner without needing to rely on contact then in my opinion it's a fair move. The Porsche driver probably wasn't expecting it, but they lacked spatial awareness.

I think I've said it before but while everyone understands there is an art to overtaking, there is also an art to being overtaken. You need to be aware of what other drivers are doing and what they might do so you can react accordingly.

 

[Philtaylor17]

All I'm going to say is can you imagine the amount of penalties given out if high level IRL racing series deemed every move that didn't start from being alongside before the braking to be illegal? The amount of amazing overtakes throughout history removed? There's a good reason they don't do that, and don't have laws against it, and it's because its completely possible to make a clean overtake ( which this was ) without starting the braking zone alongside. Just because you had to open your steering doesn't make the move dirty.

By the logic being used here I could exit the final corner ahead, and immediately start braking for turn 1, and if you pass me call you a dirty driver

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

if you don't have any overlap before you start braking then I guess this overtake was also an outrageously dirty divebomb?

I'm not sure where that overlap rule has come from, it's certainly not from any real motorsport. It might have some logic if we all braked at the same point but we don't, that's why we can overtake each other. We may as call the race after qualifying otherwise.

I also don't see why divebomb is such a dirty word around here, they're mostly perfectly clean, legitimate moves no matter how far back you come from (people seem to confuse them with punts for some reason).