Views on this move

  • Thread starter Ashthebash
  • 441 comments
  • 20,100 views
Whilst aggressive as all get out, the Ferrari had well-established overlap and had the car pulled up to actually make the corner. This level of aggression when executed well is brilliant, but quickly turns dodgy when it's not. In my opinion I believe the Ferrari executed this beautifully and simply caught the Porsche off guard.

It's not a pass I would attempt personally but especially when racing with others online who you may not know well you have to keep your head on a swivel and anticipate anything. Porsche driver simply wasn't expecting that move and I can't necessarily fault that either since racing experience is not known. I can not blame either driver in this instance and will chalk it up to a racing incident.
 
BigJimmy
From my point of view a good overtake under braking should be about trying to make sure your opponent knows you are there and you have achieved a good overlap. In this example it came from a big lunge from way back and at no point was an overlap achieved, as you can see from the moment of impact. The Porker is ahead of the Ferrari on the way to the apex when they hit.

TAKE

TAKE


In the real world this would have ended both their races and a significant amount of my blame would be on the overtaker. But, as it was a lobby race in a computer game I couldn't actually give a monkeys. :D
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That's past the point of contact and due to the view being used the front of the car is invisible anyway.

Just before point of contact.
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Furinkazen
By your logic any overtake attempt is not allowed then if you're a way back.

Oh and here timestamped is an example of that exact move in real life without contact because defending driver used awareness. 03:40 if anyone can't get the timestamp.

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That video is almost spot on 👍.

I'm also pretty sure @kilesa4568 was agreeing with you and his reply was in reference to the person you had replied to :)
 
Pigems
When the guy behind you is on better tires, that 1s(which it wasn’t in this case, maybe .3 at most) is a lot less relevant though. The Porsche should have stayed inside, without question. He opens the door by moving over(possibly even moving under braking), so all bets are off at that point. It’s racing, if there is a car behind you, you can never assume you know what he’s gonna do, or that your “safe”, we all know what assuming does.
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None of that makes it ok to lunge from way back and crash.
If @Ashthebash had this huge tire advantage why bother with a desperate lunge?
As was already said no need to do that. Just overtake properly because it would be inevitable.


Pigems
e. In top split FIA races, you either defend or get passed, that’s just how it works 99% of the time. These guys aren’t messing around.
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Doesn’t make it good racing, or correct relative to real world, or even fun if people just dive. He was too far back as multiple pics showed. I guess I will agree to disagree, in good faith and a friendly manner as possible...
 
kungtotte_
"Right of way" is a concept for driving on the street, in racing it's about who asserts their control over the track.

Something that's done by positioning your car and showing intent with your movements on the track. Think about the intent the Porsche is showing throughout the clip with his track positioning and movements, and then consider whether this was a dirty overtake or not.
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Ok I said it wrong my apologies.. I just think the guy in front had the turn in line first and due to him naturally braking for the turn in the guy behind used it to his advantage and it went pear shaped 👍
 
FPV MIC
That's past the point of contact and due to the view being used the front of the car is invisible anyway.
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Dude he was further back than this. If you’re here, it’s not your corner. Period.
3FE23013-F8D6-4062-BD5E-E4B85F5CB4B7.png


He was so far back he wasn’t even in the guys radar!
Ok now I’m done. I disagree with divebombing as a means to get ahead
 
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Groundfish
Dude he was further back than this. If you’re here, it’s not your corner. Period.
View attachment 995285

He was so far back he wasn’t even in the guys radar!
Ok now I’m done. I disagree with divebombing as a means to get ahead
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There is overlap there long before the apex, meaning Porsche can’t just turn in with a car there. He had already lost the corner by this point.
 
A skilled driver should be able to pull a move off where they could dive inside and not touch the other car... when the car is touched the guy behind is at fault as far as I am concerned! the guy in front has to brake as normal.. the guy behind has the luxury of going in more aggressive and have the car in front as a last resort safety barrier when it all goes skewy ;)
 
Groundfish
Doesn’t make it good racing, or correct relative to real world, or even fun if people just dive. He was too far back as multiple pics showed. I guess I will agree to disagree, in good faith and a friendly manner as possible...
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Correct or not, you have to run the race to the level of your competition. If a top split races very agressive, you better race the same. Otherwise, you will run in the back. While I myself finds defending from lap 1, turn 1 disgusting race technique, if that is what is required to compete at the highest of levels, I let it slide to those races and racers.

But that level shouldn’t be compared to the average FIA room. I hold a higher standard to those rooms. Because I know the higher ranked driver likely has a higher skill, meaning he is more likely to pull off an iffy move, and said driver being overtaken will be able to handle being dive bomber. Whereas, I don’t trust any low A driver in my room. I’ve run with enough of the same guys to get a feeling of who does what, but even still, you race watching your competition out of the corner of your eye.
 
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Groundfish
Dude he was further back than this. If you’re here, it’s not your corner. Period.
View attachment 995285

He was so far back he wasn’t even in the guys radar!
Ok now I’m done. I disagree with divebombing as a means to get ahead
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What the.... I was pointing out point of contact, and in my picture it was just before point of contact.

And as @Pigems mentions above, there's overlap in your picture so by that point it's all over when the door has been left open.

Groundfish
Edit the other thing is, I consider myself still part of TPC, even though I haven’t made the lobbies lately, tpc is good people and when I see my teammates in sport mode I support them in the fullest even to the point of taking people out for them.
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Now this is dirty!!!
 
@Groundfish here you go

Your image of the 'ideal line'

23FDD6AD-6D54-4F26-A698-B528A108FB32.jpeg


As close a photo as I can get position-wise, showing the Porsche clearly inside that line hence not at turn in
PS_App_20210303_065234.jpeg


How much overlap??
PS_App_20210303_065243.jpeg


Practically half a car

Although that's using the shadow as a reference which is actually further back in my picture (due to time of day I'd assume)
 
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Ashthebash
@Groundfish here you go

Your image of the 'ideal line'

View attachment 995290

As close a photo as I can get position-wise, showing the Porsche clearly inside that line hence not at turn in
View attachment 995291

How much overlap??
View attachment 995292

Practically half a car
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Lol that shadows at an angle to the track just like your photo angle.
You are way behind way outta position.
I pulled it up in game the outside edge of the shadow is way ahead of the inner edge at track edge, plus lol your camera angle is at a diagonal too!
Nice try.
I’m unsubbin this nonsense knock yourselves out.
I will NEVER support divebombs. No matter how good of friends you all are, none of that makes this anything but a huge mistake desperate lunge resulting in a wreck and personal conflict with the A plus driver ahead that got rammed.
There’s no justification for this “move”
 
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Ashthebash
Although that's using the shadow as a reference which is actually further back in my picture (due to time of day I'd assume)
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Can you show the Porsche's POV speed and control inputs immediately before the collision?
 
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Mr P
A skilled driver should be able to pull a move off where they could dive inside and not touch the other car... when the car is touched the guy behind is at fault as far as I am concerned! the guy in front has to brake as normal.. the guy behind has the luxury of going in more aggressive and have the car in front as a last resort safety barrier when it all goes skewy ;)
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The guy behind pulled the move off without making contact and using the other car as a means of making the corner.
All contact in this video is the Porsche turning in on the Ferrari.

Groundfish
I disagree with divebombing as a means to get ahead
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I certainly also disagree with dive-bombing as a means to get ahead. For me the character of a dive-bomb is a fast move up the inside from a long way back in a way that can not make the corner without making contact to stay on line.
The only contact here is the Porsche's fault.
I might very well had done the same thing as the Porsche, because sometimes I loose focus on my opponents and look ahead to next apex.
Had I done it I would be pissed afterwards. At myself.

Edit: @Groundfish you are certainly a part of TPC.
 
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kungtotte_
So that means you can basically never pass, as the leading car can just swerve into you and it'll be your fault?
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That does sound a lot like the old GtSport penalty system, well when passing lower rated drivers. :ouch:

Now you can bash away and dive from anywhere, use the other car as a brake and anything else as long as you don't knock the other driver too far off track. :banghead:

If PD can't agree with themselves what is clean and what isn't, is it really any wonder that we as (mostly) simple forum members can't. :P

:gtplanet::cheers:
 
Groundfish
Lol that shadows at an angle to the track just like your photo angle.
You are way behind way outta position.
I pulled it up in game the outside edge of the shadow is way ahead of the inner edge at track edge, plus lol your camera angle is at a diagonal too!
Nice try.
I’m unsubbin this nonsense knock yourselves out.
I will NEVER support divebombs. No matter how good of friends you all are, none of that makes this anything but a huge mistake desperate lunge resulting in a wreck and personal conflict with the A plus driver ahead that got rammed.
There’s no justification for this “move”
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When 20+ people say the move was legit and 2 or 3 say otherwise, maybe the 20+ people are right. They've even explained why it's legit and not a divebomb. Horsey not thirsty?

It was bold for sure but it was a beautifully executed, opportunistic move all the same. Would I go for it? Maybe, maybe not, but if I see someone open up the inside of T1 that early, you can be damn sure I'll think about passing or at least try and compromise the other driver's line.

ASH32
is it really any wonder that we as (mostly) simple forum members can't.
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Everybody is likely on the same page with the pass but some have attached their own overly polite and naive racing principles to it, marking anything that they wouldn't do themselves as dirty.

What bothers me is if he reacts like this (kinda antsy) on a forum, how would he react seeing it on a track?
 
It's a my opinion it's a bad move simple as that and i am entitled to my opinion just like everyone esle.. funny how this move is made at the end of the long back straight with the deepest braking point under speed on the track.. I mean Interlagos is a big track and surely some would have the ability to pass elsewhere other than the end of the mile long slipstream straight? I think PD should implement areas on track where no overtaking is allowed a bit like the DRS areas in F1 and I'm sure dive bombing would be eradicated.. but this will never happen :P remember we are all entitled to our own opinions if you don't like mine then that's just life :P

Have fun racing guys :cheers:
 
Perfectly fine move, nothing wrong with aggressive and assertive driving, Porsche left the door open anyway and should have opened the steering. Nothing wrong with diving to the apex either if car and driver a capable and there is room, heck COTA has corners designed to encourage those kind of dives. Generally what happens and is ok in the real world should be ok in the virtual world, yes?

Maybe there is some way games can teach race craft in the future, as I'm always surprised by how acceptable and good race craft is often seen as bad driving by the sim racing community.
 
kilesa4568
When 20+ people say the move was legit and 2 or 3 say otherwise, maybe the 20+ people are right. They've even explained why it's legit and not a divebomb. Horsey not thirsty?
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I’m very confident that those who share my viewpoint are individuals with impeccable taste, honor, courage, and a truly honest and moral nature. Further I also believe one or two are leaders in the sim community as a whole, who have given us all tremendous entertainment by sharing their artistic genius as well as fantastic sense of humor and overall intelligence and inner beauty.
Truly these folks are leading the evolution of humanity forward and also never fail to lead by example.
I am humbled by their very presence in a silly thread like this about a divebomb in a video game lobby :)
 
If that isn't a clean pass we all mayaswell just pack in racing, watch how many clean moves are done starting from behind in real racing, it happens constantly. Some cars have more straight line speed than others, your in an M6 vs a Jag and you have to wait forever despite being on better tyres because you need to be fully alongside before outbraking?

As I said before, if I accelerate out of the last corner ahead and then immediately start braking for turn 1 your going to stay behind me and lose 30 seconds? Of course not, yes it's an extreme example but it shows the flaws in the argument of "you must be alongside before braking to pass".

If you can get to the apex alongside and not run wide and force the other guy off, its a fair pass. If the other guy has to open his steering at the apex, so be it, its part of racing, it happens constantly IRL
 
Where i disagree with most of you is the "overlap at the point of the apex"...that's irrelevant. By that point, lead car has made a decision to turn in. What matters is overlap at the point of braking and the OP was so far back he was off radar.
 
He can decide to turn in whenever he wants if the overtaking car is on his inside he needs to open the steering lol

If he got there because his car has vastly better brakes or grip or driver skill does it really matter? A clean pass is being at the apex first and not running wide imo, I feel fairly confident this is generally accepted by most top level racing series?

I mean if not how many penalties would F1, Le mans, Indycar etc be giving out each race?
 
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I'll keep it simple - That is a clean move done by OP.

The driver in front should have been paying attention to their mirrors, meaning that they had poor awareness and turned in. They denied the line and caused a collision.

Late moves are only an issue if you're blocking a driver behind you or clearly doing a dive that is too fast for the driver in front to react to or where you cannot slow down enough to safely make the corner.
 
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Last of the late brakers, Daniel Ricciardo, has been used as an example a few times here and I always love his overtakes. There is a good example from last year when he was instead the defender that I think applies here. Styrian Grand Prix, Turn 3 between Stroll and Ricciardo. Stroll dives and doesn't make the apex, Danny Ric is aware and avoids contact, but both cars go off and he loses the position. No penalty was awarded by the stewards after the race. Did they not know the rules or was additional context considered? Ricciardo says in post race interviews that he thought it should be a penalty, if not he should have blocked, and would bring it up in the next drivers' meeting for a consensus. I think that is what is happening here and its good debate, but the consensus and my take seems to match up to Honey Badger's own words, “I think if he made the corner and kind of squeezed me off, then I accept that and that’s a move, but to get both of us off – yeah, that’s where it’s like ‘I don’t see how that works’ – in any situation I guess.”
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2...oll_forces_Ricciardo_off-track_at_Turn_3.html
 
ZiggyS80
Last of the late brakers, Daniel Ricciardo, has been used as an example a few times here and I always love his overtakes. There is a good example from last year when he was instead the defender that I think applies here. Styrian Grand Prix, Turn 3 between Stroll and Ricciardo. Stroll dives and doesn't make the apex, Danny Ric is aware and avoids contact, but both cars go off and he loses the position. No penalty was awarded by the stewards after the race. Did they not know the rules or was additional context considered? Ricciardo says in post race interviews that he thought it should be a penalty, if not he should have blocked, and would bring it up in the next drivers' meeting for a consensus. I think that is what is happening here and its good debate, but the consensus and my take seems to match up to Honey Badger's own words, “I think if he made the corner and kind of squeezed me off, then I accept that and that’s a move, but to get both of us off – yeah, that’s where it’s like ‘I don’t see how that works’ – in any situation I guess.”
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2...oll_forces_Ricciardo_off-track_at_Turn_3.html
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Difference there is that it is an obvious mistake by Stroll, he misses the corner, unlike here. See the video I posted bottom of a page or so back for how it should be done.
 

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