Views on this move

  • Thread starter Ashthebash
  • 441 comments
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I don't see any problem. It's fair play, it's not some dirty move that compromises your opponent and makes them crash. This over-analysis is totally stupid and absolutely meaningless, completely derailing this thread in the process. It was smart, opportunistic driving and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
I have no idea how the officials sort out fault in real racing, I don’t watch racing. :cheers:

It tends to be obvious. Very little in the way of absolute bonkers moves like you see in a video game setting.

If anything, had Ash pulled this off, it’d have been another Zanardi/Herta Laguna Seca.



I know CART banned that type of move shortly after, but they banned the use of short cutting a corner to overtake, not the overtake.
 
The irony is that if Ash had gone for an actual divebomb their would've been no contact at all and they would've both made the corner. It's actually a really stupid crash because the Porsche knows the Ferrari is there so half defends (yet turns in anyway :rolleyes:) and the Ferrari is trying to be overly kind so they both go into the corner about 20mph down on what they normally would and clumsily fall over each other. If there is a car alongside on the corner entry you've lost the corner, you don't just drive into them.

Here is a pretty much identical incident from the chicane at Fuji but the car ahead is aware enough to not turn in and cause a crash (ignore the shouty man in the little box).

Here is a real world example of the same corner with a move from even further back, the lead car leaves a cars width on the inside because he knows that (this time at least) causing a crash would cost him a lot more than losing a position:
 
My question is why risk a move like that? If you're on better tires you have almost a full lap to make the move, you probably would have got him on the run to the next corner.
Got one corner really - T4, and you know once he's gone defensive down the straight in the first place then he's going to defend that the same way (and the Ferrari doesn't exactly drive past cars!). As I said in the OP, I tried to tempt him out thinking if he came out then I could switch back, plus has to be said I caught him cold. I'd only just caught up to him after taking 6s in as many laps (I got beaten up a bit first stint - not by this guy, we actually had some decent side by side T4-T7), so knew an early move would be even less expected.

If you were to see the guy's graph, there could even be an argument that he turned in knowing full well I was there. It is a bit, mountain rangey. But again I wasn't saying the turn in was dirty or anything, I fully expected to pull his pants down with that move and take him by surprise and IF he didn't see me, contact was always possible, the reaction with the T4 ram and post race abuse though, another matter, and very reflective of his SR graph

I had an almost exact same situation in the FIA tonight and I tried to bait the guy to come out but he stayed to the left until it was too late to try a switch, guess a 62k driver with higher level racing experience isn't so easily bought. But had he moved out, I would have 100% done the switch back again
 
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1.30m sums it up




I did the first bit, but as @GOTMAXPOWER says, slowed TOO much because I wanted to make the apex and be able to take it tight enough to leave space - which I did. What you seem to be advocating is that the Porsche driver is allowed to be completely oblivious to what's going on. I mean, if you see this in the mirror and then the Ferrari disappears on your left hand side, surely that means you can turn in to climb all over the kerb??

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Oh, and 100m? Behave yourself, it's not a force field that prevents overtakes and anyone braking at 100m for that corner is going to get overtaken by any car within a second. For reference I was braking at around 75m on old hards, and ridiculously close to the 50m board on fresh softs, this move was somewhere in the middle
 
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I mention the 100m and 50m boards because yeah, we brake in between those two points.

So at what looks to be about 75m, the front if your car is well behind the back of his, by this point he is already braking and has made up his mind as to which line he is going to take.

This is the point of no return and I essence the crux of the entire discussion, you're asking him, before that point, to leave you enough space to make the apex despite no part of your car even being close to his?

This will end in problems more often than you will get away with it.
 
Ok. This sequence begins at the initial brake application of the Ferrari. At no point does he get right to apex, or closer to apex, nor can he stop because he’s full brake. I’m sure all of those here touting this behavior as a valid “move” would be happy if every time they tried turn 1 cars would do this right? :::rolls eyes:::
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The sequence ends at the impact point.
On THAT turn, it’s a divebomb
Look in particular at the 4th photo. The Ferrari isn’t even IN the shadow yet! AND the shadow angles across track. The right side of said shadow is further down track than left! The Porsche is turning in at THAT point!
Honestly I’m totally flabbergasted and don’t understand what you guys are even looking at.
You're off again making things up. In this case attempting to use stills to disprove a video. Saying I couldn't slow the car and I wasn't making the corner blah blah blah.

I was doing 62mph at the point of contact, the Porsche 68mph. Would you like proof?
 
I mention the 100m and 50m boards because yeah, we brake in between those two points.

So at what looks to be about 75m, the front if your car is well behind the back of his, by this point he is already braking and has made up his mind as to which line he is going to take.

This is the point of no return and I essence the crux of the entire discussion, you're asking him, before that point, to leave you enough space to make the apex despite no part of your car even being close to his?

This will end in problems more often than you will get away with it.
There's a radar, mirrors, and the red proximity indicators to aid you with situational awareness.

It happens to me in nearly every single race I'm in that I have to look at the radar while braking, turning in, and heading towards the apex to see what the car behind is up to. Whether they're diving me, backing off, going side by side on the inside or the outside.

And I react accordingly. If they're alongside I give them space, if they're behind me I stay on my line.

It really isn't harder than that.

Up your situational awareness and these situations become less black and white 👍
 
I mention the 100m and 50m boards because yeah, we brake in between those two points.

So at what looks to be about 75m, the front if your car is well behind the back of his, by this point he is already braking and has made up his mind as to which line he is going to take.

This is the point of no return and I essence the crux of the entire discussion, you're asking him, before that point, to leave you enough space to make the apex despite no part of your car even being close to his?

This will end in problems more often than you will get away with it.
To be honest I'm just asking him to use his mirrors. If you have any kind of rear view you see that coming, and you don't turn in to climb all over the kerb like on a normal lap on your own, you open the steering up a little in the hope that I've got it wrong and am going to fly past up your inside. If you don't see it coming... I'm not sure what your defence is

Guy is/was 52k, believe me, if he's getting any higher than that he will become accustomed to that kind of move and learn to defend it. You can't give an inch, because they'll take a mile
 
. If you have any kind of rear view you see that coming, and you don't turn in to climb all over the kerb like on a normal lap on your own, you open the steering up a little in the hope that I've got it wrong and am going to fly past up your inside. If you don't see it coming... I'm not sure what your defence is

What you fail to understand is the reason why people like Ross Bentley explain that you must have sufficient overlap PRIOR to the lead car turning in.
You can’t expect the LEAD CAR to slow down below the limit and mirror drive in fear of the guy who never presented himself.

By your logic anytime I’m leading a guy into turn one my choice is A remain defensive on track limits inside on entry, or B if taking the racing line, EVEN if you are multiple car lengths behind me on ENTRY (not initial braking) that I must not drive the limit and must mirror watch and yield if you cut the entire line?
Really?
That’s nuts. In racing you drive the LIMIT which is precisely why these unwritten rules exist as they do and why convention is what it is.
Cornering at limit you expect the lead driver to be ready to yield AT APEX?
The whole idea is preposterous and backwards and I fail to see how anyone could posdibly believe it’s right to think the lead car should slow down below limit and mirror watch AFTER starting the turn and committing?
That’s recipe for disaster.

You looked at the photos I showed of where you were and perhaps are in denial about that, since you commented I made them up!

Bottom line, if you can’t get in position to make a proper overtake you ought to drive faster and do it right, not ruin the game by desperately lunging and ruining the guys race.
I feel bad for the Porsche.
Stuck in front of an impatient racer who was willing to ruin his race just to get ahead.
 
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The cars are alongside each other before the apex though? The collision even happens before the apex.

Nobody is saying the Porsche needs to move off the apex if he gets there first, but he didn't get there first which is the crux in this whole situation is it not? We're all essentially racing each other to the next apex and it's about getting there first.

In the video posted here, ash unequivocally was on his way to hit the apex first when the Porsche turned in on him.

Aggressive doesn't mean dirty.

Aggressive doesn't mean forbidden.

It just means aggressive.

You don't have a god given right to drive whatever line and speed you want towards the apex just because you happen to be in front of the other car, you need to actually drive faster than the other guy to ensure you stay ahead of them. In this case the Porsche failed to do so. This isn't time trial, it's a race, and in a race you need to actually care about other cars on track.
 
I don't think it was "dirty" but it wasn't the right time for that pass. I think the other driver was surprised to made that were there and had already committed to his turn in. Truthfully, you probably shouldn't have made the move because you really didn't have the space for it. If you had out braked him like 10 meters before, ok sure, but it wasn't evident that you had that position until after he already turned in. This is a game remember, people don't always see what's next to them.


That being said, he should have taken a more defensive line knowing this is GTsport and how people play.
 
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From my point of view a good overtake under braking should be about trying to make sure your opponent knows you are there and you have achieved a good overlap. In this example it came from a big lunge from way back and at no point was an overlap achieved, as you can see from the moment of impact. The Porker is ahead of the Ferrari on the way to the apex when they hit.


In the real world this would have ended both their races and a significant amount of my blame would be on the overtaker. But, as it was a lobby race in a computer game I couldn't actually give a monkeys. :D

Lol. Many thanks for taking the time to comment :)
 
Alright then, as some of you seem to be jumping up and down about "dive bomb passing" being dirty. Rate the following video.

For context it's the drivers view point, I'm driving, and it was a league race.


Dirty divebomb! you didn't brake at the 100m, he turned in before you and you didn't lay out a red carpet for the lead car....

Move is good!
 

So exactly what are you arguing with the video? Is the move good or bad?
And exactly where is turn-in point?
Does this mean that you can not pass anyone on Big Willow apart from on the one straight because everything else is past turn-in?
This is not really applicable in my book.
The Porsche was lured to go outside and opened the door instead of staying defensive, the Ferrari dived inside and executed a inside pass with no contact. And then the Porsche turns in on it...
What he should have done was make room and move to cut off/close door on next apex. Or undercut coming out of the esses.

Alright then, as some of you seem to be jumping up and down about "dive bomb passing" being dirty. Rate the following video.

For context it's the drivers view point, I'm driving, and it was a league rac

[/QUOT
E]e.OTE]

Clearly legit.
 
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What you fail to understand is the reason why people like Ross Bentley explain that you must have sufficient overlap PRIOR to the lead car turning in.
You can’t expect the LEAD CAR to slow down below the limit and mirror drive in fear of the guy who never presented himself.

By your logic anytime I’m leading a guy into turn one my choice is A remain defensive on track limits inside on entry, or B if taking the racing line, EVEN if you are multiple car lengths behind me on ENTRY (not initial braking) that I must not drive the limit and must mirror watch and yield if you cut the entire line?
Really?
That’s nuts. In racing you drive the LIMIT which is precisely why these unwritten rules exist as they do and why convention is what it is.
Cornering at limit you expect the lead driver to be ready to yield AT APEX?
The whole idea is preposterous and backwards and I fail to see how anyone could posdibly believe it’s right to think the lead car should slow down below limit and mirror watch AFTER starting the turn and committing?
That’s recipe for disaster.

You looked at the photos I showed of where you were and perhaps are in denial about that, since you commented I made them up!

Bottom line, if you can’t get in position to make a proper overtake you ought to drive faster and do it right, not ruin the game by desperately lunging and ruining the guys race.
I feel bad for the Porsche.
Stuck in front of an impatient racer who was willing to ruin his race just to get ahead.

Right, let's go through this point by point then.

1. "You can’t expect the LEAD CAR to slow down below the limit and mirror drive in fear of the guy who never presented himself"

If the driver behind is in overtaking range, which he clearly was because he made the apex easily, then yes, you need to be able keep an eye on your mirrors ( or radar ), you see F1 drivers do it all the time, and while you can't to that 100% of the time, that's, what, reflexes, are, for, oh there is a car on my inside, damn, good job I can also steer the other way.

2. "By your logic anytime I’m leading a guy into turn one my choice is A remain defensive on track limits inside on entry, or B if taking the racing line, EVEN if you are multiple car lengths behind me on ENTRY (not initial braking) that I must not drive the limit and must mirror watch and yield"

Yes, those are your choices, defend the inside, or take the racing line because you judge that your braking late enough that he can't outbrake you from that far back and make the corner, if he can do that from "miles back" then maybe you aren't as on the limit as you like to think, and the faster car will unfortunately pass you, you may have to open the steering slightly and lose a little time, that's how racing goes at times.

3. "Cornering at limit you expect the lead driver to be ready to yield AT APEX?"

Yes, i can be on the limit of cornering in a left hander, and if a car is there very easily steer the other way, if we couldn't do that then chicanes would be a real problem eh?

4. "You looked at the photos I showed of where you were and perhaps are in denial about that, since you commented I made them up!"

I think you know he wasn't saying you made the photos up, the statements about the photo's were not correct.


"Bottom line" to use your phrase, if you can't be ready to react to what happens on track, then maybe you shouldn't be on that track.
 
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Great move in my view. The Ferrari fakes to the right making the Porsche move over to cover & then the Ferrari flicks to the left & lunges inside towards the apex, winning the corner. Clearly.
This was a set up move, and a classic racing move at that.
No leading driver has the "ownership" of a corner if they get faked & move wide to cover, leaving a gaping hole to the apex. That's on them.
The simple fact that they failed to anticipate a quick switch to the inside shows that they were out-thought, and out-raced.
Still photos of the incident prove nothing one way or the other. It has to be viewed in real time. Racing, as we should all know, involves split second decisions / reactions made at speed, something which still photos cannot convey.
Watched in real time the Ferrari cleverly steals the corner from the Porsche.
Well done.
A "dive bomb" which has been bandied about to describe the move, is a straight lined missile plunge into a non existing space, with no thought or consideration of the consequences.
A desperate move designed to take someone out even if it means the "diver" takes themselves out in the process.
This clearly was nothing of the sort.
Bravo.
 
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