Views on this move

[kungtotte_]

I had a browse through my copy of Bentley's "Ultimate Speed Secrets" and the following passages popped out as relevant, I highlighted the parts I reacted to.

It's almost as though Bentley is saying that not everything is black or white and we have to judge everything on a case by case basis...

 

[Philtaylor17]

 

[Philtaylor17]

 

[Furinkazen]

@NevilleNobody @Groundfish

OP didn't cause any accident, was alongside by the corner apex, Porsche turned in. I have even posted video evidence of real moves that are lauded as quality overtakes at the exact same corner but you continue to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I'd hate to see you guys on an actual race track, you wouldn't last two minutes.

There's no such thing as an "auto-blame" on the passing car, the car defending also has to be aware of its surroundings expecially if they lose the right to the corner. A divebomb in itself is NOT a dirty move, it refers to a move from a long way back. If he hit the Porsche in the rear wheel, that would be his fault, but your own screenshots even showed the ferrari being fully alongside and more importantly having made the actual corner. If the Porsche was NOT there the Ferrari would have still made the corner clean.

You even see here at the apex the Ferrari has the corner and is turned in!

 

[roamingbard13]

@NevilleNobody @Groundfish

OP didn't cause any accident, was alongside by the corner apex, Porsche turned in. I have even posted video evidence of real moves that are lauded as quality overtakes at the exact same corner but you continue to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I'd hate to see you guys on an actual race track, you wouldn't last two minutes.

There's no such thing as an "auto-blame" on the passing car, the car defending also has to be aware of its surroundings expecially if they lose the right to the corner. A divebomb in itself is NOT a dirty move, it refers to a move from a long way back. If he hit the Porsche in the rear wheel, that would be his fault, but your own screenshots even showed the ferrari being fully alongside and more importantly having made the actual corner. If the Porsche was NOT there the Ferrari would have still made the corner clean.

You even see here at the apex the Ferrari has the corner and is turned in!

I'm not watching the video again, because I don't care, but I'd argue that the Porsche is coming down too early for optimal speed through that section anyways based on these pics. The optimal apex is a bit later IMO to get a great exit on the next apex.

Edit:

Thanks though, for all of you continuing to post here. It's been great ******* reading the last couple days.

 

[PirovacBoy]

My opinion on the move? It was well executed. French Guy got under pressure and got eaten alive. If you defend you got to do it 100% or nothing. The Contact on turn in was 100% his fault lacking spacial awareness. Period.

 

[Groundfish]

Alright then, as some of you seem to be jumping up and down about "dive bomb passing" being dirty. Rate the following video.

For context it's the drivers view point, I'm driving, and it was a league race.

This was a good move. You achieved overlap prior to turn in and he knew you were there. You were right next to him. Nicely done.

Last night in FIA I got a chance to take second into turn 1...Also an example of overtaking at the hairpin. I was on softs there. No contact, driver ahead knew I was there...Notice on the turn 1 sim next to him inside, I actually start braking early to ensure I will hold tight, and to ensure I can keep my car nosed ahead of him so there’s nowhere he can go. He’s cutoff totally by the position of my car and is forced to fall in behind

There’s another at Decida de Lago
The AMG can’t do anything all his options are removed.

Fwiw I had good runs and pulled alongside on the straight.
But, if you just brake a touch early on inside (a touch) and stay next to your opponent nosed ahead there’s nothing they can do.
That’s what I consider safe and textbook.
No grey area.

 

[MaxAttack]

he knew you were there

No contact, driver ahead knew I was there...

Surely you can see this is pretty much the only difference between those other moves and Ash's move, and that this is also the only part of the whole situation Ash has no control over.

So how can he be blamed for doing the exact same thing (plus one lovely dummy) when it just so happens the Porsche driver wasn't as aware as all these others?

 

[Groundfish]

You even see here at the apex the Ferrari has the corner and is turned in!

Negative. You ought to drive the track so you can see where that is. Ferrari cut the racing line in a bee line to PRE APEX hitting the Porsche. The apex is further down track. The Ferraris line left him nowhere to go except hug inside curb at a slow speed.
See the photos I put up for overtaking dove right, in an A plus lobby.

Edit @MaxAttack
No no no no. The difference is I fairly earned track position along side before the turn in point, and maintained position of my car so that my opponent had no choice but to fall in behind.
If you get inside and stay nosed barely ahead it prevents the chance your opponent could maintain round the outside forcing you to leave space side by side.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

@Groundfish I'm really curious as to what you think of this incident since the lead car was the one penalised, I posted it earlier but understand there is a lot going on in this thread 👍

 

[Timm Sheehan]

So exactly what are you arguing with the video? Is the move good or bad?
And exactly where is turn-in point?
Does this mean that you can not pass anyone on Big Willow apart from on the one straight because everything else is past turn-in?
This is not really applicable in my book.
The Porsche was lured to go outside and opened the door instead of staying defensive, the Ferrari dived inside and executed a inside pass with no contact. And then the Porsche turns in on it...
What he should have done was make room and move to cut off/close door on next apex. Or undercut coming out of the esses.

Sorry that this is going to really be a poor answer as everyone can have an opinion on just about anything but a key philosophy I believe in is to make an educated or experienced point to which at this time I feel I do not have adequate experience or knowledge to accurately determine if the move was good or bad. I am however impressed at the move @Ashthebash made and how he convinced the Porsche driver to give up his position.

I posted the video because it continues the discussion on passing and passing etiquette from that was previously posted.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

This was a good move. You achieved overlap prior to turn in and he knew you were there. You were right next to him. Nicely done.

Last night in FIA I got a chance to take second into turn 1...Also an example of overtaking at the hairpin. I was on softs there. No contact, driver ahead knew I was there...Notice on the turn 1 sim next to him inside, I actually start braking early to ensure I will hold tight, and to ensure I can keep my car nosed ahead of him so there’s nowhere he can go. He’s cutoff totally by the position of my car and is forced to fall in behind

View attachment 995471 View attachment 995472 View attachment 995473 View attachment 995474 View attachment 995475 View attachment 995476 View attachment 995477

There’s another at Decida de Lago
The AMG can’t do anything all his options are removed.View attachment 995478 View attachment 995479

Fwiw I had good runs and pulled alongside on the straight.
But, if you just brake a touch early on inside (a touch) and stay next to your opponent nosed ahead there’s nothing they can do.
That’s what I consider safe and textbook.
No grey area.

These are as you say examples of clean overtakes, no doubt about that.
But so is @Ashthebash , although his is more risky and as yours totally dependent on the overtaken car to not turn into the overtaking car.
If the car turned into you it would be an example of the exact same thing as the OP.

Now, multiple people has explained why it isn't dirty. You ignore that.
You quote Bentley's Speed Secrets, another member posted the quotes on overtake from that verybook and it also says it's not a clear cut thing but a grey area. You also ignore that.
Then several movies of real life situations similar or exactly the same as the OP is posted.
You also ignore that.

At this point I don't think you would change your mind if Ross Bentley himself said it was a clean move.
So there is really no point in trying to persuade you to see this more nuanced.
You clearly has a black/white view of this, so we might as well agree to disagree.

 

[Furinkazen]

Negative. You ought to drive the track so you can see where that is. Ferrari cut the racing line in a bee line to PRE APEX hitting the Porsche. The apex is further down track. The Ferraris line left him nowhere to go except hug inside curb at a slow speed.
See the photos I put up for overtaking dove right, in an A plus lobby.

Edit @MaxAttack
No no no no. The difference is I fairly earned track position along side before the turn in point, and maintained position of my car so that my opponent had no choice but to fall in behind.
If you get inside and stay nosed barely ahead it prevents the chance your opponent could maintain round the outside forcing you to leave space side by side.

It is very clear you're hear just to troll now, i'll agree with @RacingGrandpa here and agree to disagree.

Of note - it is irrelevant what ranking a lobby is, i've seen some shocking driving in A+ rooms, some great driving in B level rooms.

 

[Groundfish]

Now, multiple people has explained why it isn't dirty. You ignore that.
You quote Bentley's Speed Secrets, another member posted the quotes on overtake from that verybook and it also says it's not a clear cut thing but a grey area. You also ignore that.
Then several movies of real life situations similar or exactly the same as the OP is posted.
You also ignore that

I disagree vehemently. That’s all.
For one reason and that’s that the Ferrari never had sufficient overlap.
I posted up photos proving my point and examples of how to do it, which I myself did.
It’s a very deceptive turn from the camera angles he put up and I am not alone in my viewpoint, one of the people who agreed is pretty much top of the heap in the sim racing industry, he did say MOST of the blame was on the Ferrari.
When people race like this imo it ruins online racing. Imo you can’t race if people do that. The move wasn’t successful or clean and that move from there has a very very low probability for success, as noted by others as well as myself.
One driver who agreed with me specifically avoids sport mode because of these divebombs.
I will just stop posting in the thread I guess, but my mind is not changed. I’m not sure what’s not black and white here.

At this point I don't think you would change your mind if Ross Bentley himself said it was a clean move.
So there is really no point in trying to persuade you to see this more nuanced.
You clearly has a black/white view of this, so we might as well agree to disagree.

Certainly. I’m sure never going to change my mind on it and that’s ok.
We can all stay friendly.
There’s no law saying racers will always agree on issues like this.

So to all, simply recognize that moves like these will lead to big trouble 95 percent of time...

I’m bowing out. I’ve showed the right way and said enough

 

[NevilleNobody]

Sufficient? There was no overlap at all. in fact a considerable gap.

 

[Groundfish]

Sufficient? There was no overlap at all. in fact a considerable gap.

You’re right. My bad.
Goodbye, thread.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

I’m bowing out.

It's probably for the best. It's pretty obvious everybody has their opinion on what happened (IN A PRACTICE LOBBY!!!!!) and isn't going to change their minds. Hopefully see you on track again sometime .

Hey @NevilleNobody did you see the Formula E Bird vs Lynn clip/stewards decision, I'm curious what people think but nobody wants to talk about it.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

but nobody wants to talk about it.

Well.... It's Formula E. The best you can do is keep quiet....

 

[Pigems]

I disagree vehemently. That’s all.
For one reason and that’s that the Ferrari never had sufficient overlap.
I posted up photos proving my point and examples of how to do it, which I myself did.
It’s a very deceptive turn from the camera angles he put up and I am not alone in my viewpoint, one of the people who agreed is pretty much top of the heap in the sim racing industry, he did say MOST of the blame was on the Ferrari.
When people race like this imo it ruins online racing. Imo you can’t race if people do that. The move wasn’t successful or clean and that move from there has a very very low probability for success, as noted by others as well as myself.
One driver who agreed with me specifically avoids sport mode because of these divebombs.
I will just stop posting in the thread I guess, but my mind is not changed. I’m not sure what’s not black and white here.



Certainly. I’m sure never going to change my mind on it and that’s ok.
We can all stay friendly.
There’s no law saying racers will always agree on issues like this.

So to all, simply recognize that moves like these will lead to big trouble 95 percent of time...

I’m bowing out. I’ve showed the right way and said enough

I didn’t have overlap in my pass either. I wanna know why you and @NevilleNobody aren’t calling my pass dirty too. It was the exact same pass, but on the outside. Why is one dirty and one not?


Why is this Dirty...


But this isn’t?

 

[AlexWilmot]

This is utter rubbish! how dare I make a dirty overtake:

 

[Hasnain282]

I'm curious what people think but nobody wants to talk about it.

I could see it being given both ways but I'd say Bird was entitled to space and Lynn turned in on him

 

[Groundfish]

I didn’t have overlap in my pass either. I wanna know why you and @NevilleNobody aren’t calling my pass dirty too. It was the exact same pass, but on the outside. Why is one dirty and one not?


Why is this Dirty...


But this isn’t?

Please guys let me go, but @Pigems you were side by side by turn in :::here:::

He was smart, rather than fight you and run side by side, losing more time he let you go. Maybe tires knackered, other cars behind...Hard to say, but one things true you were side by side just before turn in, so you were in the right.
He for whatever reason chose to relinquish the turn.

Please guys let me go. If you send pm that’s fine. This is just too much rn.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Please guys let me go, but @Pigems you were side by side by turn in :::here:::
View attachment 995495
He was smart, rather than fight you and run side by side, losing more time he let you go. Maybe tires knackered, other cars behind...Hard to say, but one things true you were side by side just before turn in, so you were in the right.
He for whatever reason chose to relinquish the turn.

Please guys let me go. If you send pm that’s fine. This is just too much rn.

There's never any obligation to answer, @Groundfish and there is no kink in our friendship over this.
I have no problems disagreeing with friends

 

[NevilleNobody]

This is utter rubbish! how dare I make a dirty overtake:

Are you guys deliberately obtuse? Pigems was alongside, and clearly, extremely clearly, so are you. Neither one shows you coming from half a car length behind the lead cars bumper.

With Bird and Lynn, again, are guys for real? It's not even close to being the same because the lead car changed lines aggressively at the absolute last second and the following car was at leasing making sweet love to the rear of the lead car. It was still a questionable pass attempt but better than the OP's.

 

[Ashthebash]

Sufficient? There was no overlap at all. in fact a considerable gap.

You on about the 100m board again or something?

Scenario. I'm right behind you, my car isn't quick enough to get any overlap on the power but my braking zone is 10m shorter than yours. Are you suggesting I should stay behind and brake earlier than I need to just because I don't have any overlap? Because I'll tell you now that's not happening and you need to be aware of that.

I was 0.204 behind the Porsche over the line, going quicker so under 0.2 as I made the switch and braked around 0.15s later according to the frame by frame and brake trace. Carrying nearly 8-9mph more through the main part of the braking zone. As a result at the turn in we were pretty much side by side. What you and Groundfish are neglecting is that the profile of that corner means while you turn towards the left quite early it actually has a very late turn in, it's not common, it's not the same as a corner like the final one at Bathurst which is short and tight, the entry to the corner is very long and as I was fully alongside well before contact, which came before the apex, the move had been done. As I said, it seems the only reason either of you present when discussing similar moves that had no contact is the only one that's completely out of my control - the Porsche driver's awareness (or lack of it)

There were lots of instances yesterday in the FIA of people trying very similar moves, some successful, some not. I even had a late move done on me there as I was getting towards the end of my stint on hards. No contact though because I'm aware of what's going on around me. Watch any race at Interlagos and you'll see similar moves into that corner. If the move I made had stewards making a decision, they wouldn't give a penalty to either car

Are you guys deliberately obtuse? Pigems was alongside, and clearly, extremely clearly, so are you. Neither one shows you coming from half a car length behind the lead cars bumper.

You don't need any overlap before a braking zone, none. You can get it all on the brakes if your braking distance is shorter than that of the car ahead. You can be three car lengths behind, if your car stops four car lengths shorter then you can pass on the brakes. If you don't realise that then I can imagine you wrongly calling a lot of drivers dirty

I'm done

 

[kilesa4568]

I'm done

People can learn a lot from this thread so thanks for posting the video.👍

 

[Stencedaddy]

o·ver·take
/ˌōvərˈtāk/

verb

1. 1.
   BRITISH
   catch up with and pass while traveling in the same direction.
   "her car overtook a line of vehicles"

 

[BalsBrother]

People can learn a lot from this thread so thanks for posting the video.👍

The lesson I learned from this thread is don't post videos asking for opinions if you are not prepared to accept that others might see things differently. I see other views I don't have to agree with them but I do tend to be open to seeing their point of view which can give a wider perspective on any subject

 

[Timm Sheehan]

This is utter rubbish! how dare I make a dirty overtake:

Ok, what is wrong with this? Please explain.

I see you running side-by-side through a series of S turns each on the inside on different turns and you came out on the inside on the last turn and pulled away. What was wrong here? I am not seeing it.

 

[Mr P]

The lesson I learned from this thread is don't post videos asking for opinions if you are not prepared to accept that others might see things differently. I see other views I don't have to agree with them but I do tend to be open to seeing their point of view which can a wider perspective on any subject

Great post well said 👍