Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Here are photos first of the racing line, then from the replay of the contact.
Views on this move
- Thread starter Ashthebash
- 441 comments
- 20,092 views
Here are photos first of the racing line, then from the replay of the contact.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Sorry photo heavy both drivers views
I can continue the sequence to impact which happened mid corner well before the apex cone
I can continue the sequence to impact which happened mid corner well before the apex cone
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- 5,669
- Ulricehamn
Now this is the problem. Ther isn't a fixed line everyone has to follow and being on the yellow brick road doesn't give you right of way.
If you look at this photo from the replay it should be more clear to you
It's racing, not a cue system.
- 651
- New London, CT
- roamingbard13
I think those photos show that he has pretty sufficient overlap before the corner? I must be missing something.
- 595
- Stockholm
The Ferrari is turning though? Like, it's not gonna continue along that red arrow to intersect the ideal line, it's going to turn until it blends in with the ideal line.
That's kind of how overtakes work!
The video is posted in the first thread and it's clear to anyone looking at it that the Ferrari is taking a path that will not result in cutting the Porsche off or end up with contact as long as the Porsche behaves like the Ferrari actually exists.
You're allowed to think it was too aggressive.
You're allowed to think it was rash.
You're allowed to think the Porsche can be excused for the contact given that the Ferrari lunged.
You're not allowed to make up your own story about what path the Ferrari is travelling on when we've literally got a video showing us what happened.
Stop it, dude. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion but this is what people mean when they say you're making things up. The Ferrari objectively isn't doing what you're saying that it's doing.
That's kind of how overtakes work!
The video is posted in the first thread and it's clear to anyone looking at it that the Ferrari is taking a path that will not result in cutting the Porsche off or end up with contact as long as the Porsche behaves like the Ferrari actually exists.
You're allowed to think it was too aggressive.
You're allowed to think it was rash.
You're allowed to think the Porsche can be excused for the contact given that the Ferrari lunged.
You're not allowed to make up your own story about what path the Ferrari is travelling on when we've literally got a video showing us what happened.
Stop it, dude. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion but this is what people mean when they say you're making things up. The Ferrari objectively isn't doing what you're saying that it's doing.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
The last photo is the 911 post impact. Neither car has come near apex. The corner has a decreasing radius, the apex is further down.
Neither car made it to apex because they hit each other
Fwiw the 911 deserved this after what he did to the Subaru before. (Smashed through in turn 1)
This was final lap, for the lead.
If you look, if 911 was in chase view, he’s mid turn before the Ferrari is in sight, and if he flashed a look back just prior to the corner he would see the Ferrari appearing to take a standard line...But, the 911 shoved his way past a Subaru before, I don’t know who was aware of that. Tbh if I were the Ferrari and the Subie driver let me know via chat, you bet I’d stuff that dirty 911.
There’s a lot to see in this sequence. The 911 never changed lines entering braking, as you can see.
The Ferrari went inside but wasn’t up right to track limits, with heavily worn tires he was drifting towards mid track unable to hold a tight line against the inside track limit.
The trouble with this is it’s a decreasing radius bend. It looks like you could drive a truck through there but the apex is much further down around the corner...
These photos are FAIR showing the different camera views and how in one view it looks like a great move but in others it looks like a bad one IN STILL PHOTOS.
:::shrug:::
Neither car made it to apex because they hit each other
Fwiw the 911 deserved this after what he did to the Subaru before. (Smashed through in turn 1)
This was final lap, for the lead.
If you look, if 911 was in chase view, he’s mid turn before the Ferrari is in sight, and if he flashed a look back just prior to the corner he would see the Ferrari appearing to take a standard line...But, the 911 shoved his way past a Subaru before, I don’t know who was aware of that. Tbh if I were the Ferrari and the Subie driver let me know via chat, you bet I’d stuff that dirty 911.
There’s a lot to see in this sequence. The 911 never changed lines entering braking, as you can see.
The Ferrari went inside but wasn’t up right to track limits, with heavily worn tires he was drifting towards mid track unable to hold a tight line against the inside track limit.
The trouble with this is it’s a decreasing radius bend. It looks like you could drive a truck through there but the apex is much further down around the corner...
These photos are FAIR showing the different camera views and how in one view it looks like a great move but in others it looks like a bad one IN STILL PHOTOS.
:::shrug:::
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- 2,216
- Isle of Wight, UK
One moment, it's "you must respect the letter of the laws of racing to the absolute fullest" and then it's "revenge punts are on the table for you if you do overtakes I don't like"
So, which is it? Respect the other people on track, or act as judge jury and executioner for a set of rules that, clearly, not everyone is privy to or even agrees are correct?
I'm also not exactly sure what the images are meant to be prove which hasn't already been dragged out over the last 9 pages.
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
Where are you considering the "turn-in" point? If I'm understanding the sequence of photos you've posted, by the time both cars are increasing steering input to actually turn into the corner, the Ferrari at a minimum has their front wheels aligned with the Porsche's rear wheels.
- 5,669
- Ulricehamn
They don't hit each other. The Porsche hits the Ferrari.
I understand why you want to show photos, there is no possibility to determine speed from those. The video is crystal clear, the Ferrari bait and switch and reaches the corner with sufficient overlap so the Porsche should leave room for him.
He doesn't, the impact is on the Porsche.
Now, 99% of us agree about this. I know a.majority isn't always the same thing as right but this is racing and every incident is reviewed separately and judge by a consensus among the marshalls.
Here is consensus, in this case you are wrong.
I understand why you want to show photos, there is no possibility to determine speed from those. The video is crystal clear, the Ferrari bait and switch and reaches the corner with sufficient overlap so the Porsche should leave room for him.
He doesn't, the impact is on the Porsche.
Now, 99% of us agree about this. I know a.majority isn't always the same thing as right but this is racing and every incident is reviewed separately and judge by a consensus among the marshalls.
Here is consensus, in this case you are wrong.
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- 2,034
- Bristol, UK
- OJBrit
You're showing pictures of the racing line which takes a wide entry into the corner and kisses the apex well after the yellow, green and white kerbing start.
Then you show pictures of the Ferrari well up the inside before this apex. You've really presented that final nail in the coffin of your arguement on a guilded cusion there.
Then you show pictures of the Ferrari well up the inside before this apex. You've really presented that final nail in the coffin of your arguement on a guilded cusion there.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
People have said the 911 needed to open up his steering.
But that would mean he’d go outside track limits due to the shape of the turn guys.
I’ve shown the objective reality.
I don’t know how many here have raced Interlagos extensively, online as I have...But bottom line doing what the Ferrari did will result in tears more often than not.
You’re not making any friends by stuffing it in there on the guy ahead.
I mean it’s last lap, emotions are high maybe because the 911 shoved his way past the Subaru before...I dunno.
For those who said it was a block pass...How? he was never ahead.
A block pass is a cheeky move whereby you get ahead without contact but your opponent is forced to slam brakes to avoid you.
Also, why did the Ferrari NOT get alongside next to the 911?
The 911 broke very late, but imo the Ferrari couldn’t get next to the 911 because in order to do that he needed to cut the whole arc of the turn in a straight line, further, he’s not able to hold his INSIDE.
The only reason he appears to turn is the 911 ricocheting him.
Again if the 911 has mental telepathy, and “feels” the Ferrari, and opens up steering MID CORNER to avoid the car that appears very lat on his screen he’ll be outside track limits.
We can argue all day but at the end of the day the move resulted in bad blood.
But that would mean he’d go outside track limits due to the shape of the turn guys.
I’ve shown the objective reality.
I don’t know how many here have raced Interlagos extensively, online as I have...But bottom line doing what the Ferrari did will result in tears more often than not.
You’re not making any friends by stuffing it in there on the guy ahead.
I mean it’s last lap, emotions are high maybe because the 911 shoved his way past the Subaru before...I dunno.
For those who said it was a block pass...How? he was never ahead.
A block pass is a cheeky move whereby you get ahead without contact but your opponent is forced to slam brakes to avoid you.
Also, why did the Ferrari NOT get alongside next to the 911?
The 911 broke very late, but imo the Ferrari couldn’t get next to the 911 because in order to do that he needed to cut the whole arc of the turn in a straight line, further, he’s not able to hold his INSIDE.
The only reason he appears to turn is the 911 ricocheting him.
Again if the 911 has mental telepathy, and “feels” the Ferrari, and opens up steering MID CORNER to avoid the car that appears very lat on his screen he’ll be outside track limits.
We can argue all day but at the end of the day the move resulted in bad blood.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
The turn in is where the racing line diverges towards the inside from the edge of the track where you brake. It’s just prior to the shadow or at the shadow on the right.
That’s an objective thing. That’s why I don’t get it when people say I’m “twisting” something. I’m not. Pull it up in game. Race there. That’s the racing line, the fastest way through...
I mean anyone who knows me knows I’ve been a HUGE proponent of defending inside.
And this is precisely WHY!
People CANNOT contain themselves in video games.
Riddle me this, remembering I’ve got the replay...Where does Ferrari end up if he doesn’t hit 911?
He’s already drifting out from being inside, he was running wide of the decreasing radius!
It takes everyone who plays Interlagos a LONG time to get how you race turn 1.
That’s not it guys.
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- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
Last night I shared a post including a series of videos with the first of them being an inside pass going into the same corner similar to the one in question here. You can see via. the red dot where I open up my steering and am still easily able to make the corner. Opening up the steering doesn't imply that the driver should let go of the steering wheel completely and go straight. I'll re-attach the video for easy reference.
- 5,669
- Ulricehamn
I was going to post a long answer here. But frankly I can't be bothered...
- 1,685
- United Kingdom
I’m sorry but this is absolute bs now.
@Groundfish I’ve raced with you and backed you up plenty of times and no one is questioning your clean driving.
On this occasion I have to call out horse**** on this one. You have yet to place an argument that cannot be counter argued or disproven, to the point where half the questions posted to you have been directly ignored or sneered at only to then have you claim offended once you’ve been proven unequivocally wrong just because it’s the only way you can hold some sort of moral high ground.
The majority here agree the move is risky and aggressive and is open to the Porsche turning in by mistake or otherwise due to the surprise nature of the move.
Nobody is arguing here that the Ferrari could’ve decided to make a move into t4 instead. However this is not what happened and not the point of discussion.
The fact the Ferrari out broke the Porsche does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Ferrari is not on the fastest racing line and has straight lined to the apex to shorten his braking distance does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Ferrari slows down (over slows imo) and holds that tight line does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Ferrari did everything to try and avoid contact whilst still pulling of this move does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Porsche driver defends then decides to only half defend is the Porsche’s 1st mistake.
The fact the Porsche never actually returns fully to the racing line thus compromising both braking ability and entry speed is the next mistake
The fact the Porsche is not aware of their surroundings is the next mistake.
The fact the Porsche decides to (from my perspective) turn in too early to over cut the curb is the next mistake
The fact the Porsche continues to turn in when the Ferrari is alongside is the next mistake (either deliberate or not it is still a mistake).
The fact the Porsche decided to then ram the Ferrari driver is dirty.
The fact that you are condoning revenge punting mid race is dirty.
So from my point of view the only dirty persons in this whole incident is the Porsche driver and now yourself. I don’t understand why you are digging your heals in to the point of (imo) tarnishing your very good online image within this community.
If you had proceeded to argue - I’m not sure on this move, looks kinda iffy to me, it’s not something I would approve of and certainly not do myself. I would suggest waiting and making the move into T4 instead. - I expect the majority would agree with you or at least agree with your sensible approach.
Instead however you have decided from the off to argue to the death no matter what, as if your opinion is the only one that matters as it must be right.
I ask you this - Do you not make mistakes? Is your knowledge of racing technique, etiquette and craft so full that you have nothing left to learn?
You’ve said many times that you are finished yet you come back to argue the same point that has been disproven by multiple people. I really wish you well, and hope to see you on circuit again someday. My biggest hope is that maybe you can learn something from this thread which can be used on track, or maybe irl when inevitably you will be wrong again some day.
@Groundfish I’ve raced with you and backed you up plenty of times and no one is questioning your clean driving.
On this occasion I have to call out horse**** on this one. You have yet to place an argument that cannot be counter argued or disproven, to the point where half the questions posted to you have been directly ignored or sneered at only to then have you claim offended once you’ve been proven unequivocally wrong just because it’s the only way you can hold some sort of moral high ground.
The majority here agree the move is risky and aggressive and is open to the Porsche turning in by mistake or otherwise due to the surprise nature of the move.
Nobody is arguing here that the Ferrari could’ve decided to make a move into t4 instead. However this is not what happened and not the point of discussion.
The fact the Ferrari out broke the Porsche does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Ferrari is not on the fastest racing line and has straight lined to the apex to shorten his braking distance does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Ferrari slows down (over slows imo) and holds that tight line does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Ferrari did everything to try and avoid contact whilst still pulling of this move does not make this move dirty.
The fact the Porsche driver defends then decides to only half defend is the Porsche’s 1st mistake.
The fact the Porsche never actually returns fully to the racing line thus compromising both braking ability and entry speed is the next mistake
The fact the Porsche is not aware of their surroundings is the next mistake.
The fact the Porsche decides to (from my perspective) turn in too early to over cut the curb is the next mistake
The fact the Porsche continues to turn in when the Ferrari is alongside is the next mistake (either deliberate or not it is still a mistake).
The fact the Porsche decided to then ram the Ferrari driver is dirty.
The fact that you are condoning revenge punting mid race is dirty.
So from my point of view the only dirty persons in this whole incident is the Porsche driver and now yourself. I don’t understand why you are digging your heals in to the point of (imo) tarnishing your very good online image within this community.
If you had proceeded to argue - I’m not sure on this move, looks kinda iffy to me, it’s not something I would approve of and certainly not do myself. I would suggest waiting and making the move into T4 instead. - I expect the majority would agree with you or at least agree with your sensible approach.
Instead however you have decided from the off to argue to the death no matter what, as if your opinion is the only one that matters as it must be right.
I ask you this - Do you not make mistakes? Is your knowledge of racing technique, etiquette and craft so full that you have nothing left to learn?
You’ve said many times that you are finished yet you come back to argue the same point that has been disproven by multiple people. I really wish you well, and hope to see you on circuit again someday. My biggest hope is that maybe you can learn something from this thread which can be used on track, or maybe irl when inevitably you will be wrong again some day.
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- 2,672
- Anglesey
- El_Beardo_Grande
I've had moves like this done to me (me being the Porsche, in this example) . . opening the steering doesn't result in going off track. Just off line.
There's no need to open to a point you're going in a straight line, and keeping it there.
A quick flick straight, and then back to the left would have avoided contact.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
If you’re gonna take the inside, you better HOLD inside. The Ferrari failed that too.
Ok ok ok edit
I read you guys loud and clear. I’ve sure as heck never said I’m a squeaky clean driver. I do questionable things often.
Maybe this is such a big issue for me given the huge number of races online I’ve done at Interlagos.
It’s a yoooj number.
I guess like @BigJimmy I’m too nice.
I’be never said I’m infallible I’m still honestly totally flabbergasted by this whole situation.
I guess what’s true is this: the majority feel that was a great move.
There’s a minority that feel it was the DEVIL lol.
So if you do this, the likely outcome relative to most is nothing, but to some, outright war.
Pick your poison I guess.
I’m certainly not trying to imply I’ve never done FAR FAR worse there. I’ve probably taken out half of people on the server on that track lol.
I just know how it goes when you make a grey area dove turn one.
I think in worlds fastest gamer first race there was a huge pileup there. I was kinda stoked to watch the program but turned it off after seeing that mess.
FIRDT TURN FIRST RACE PILEUP.
It was stupid and I never watched any after that.
Worlds best can’t make it through one turn clean.
Again I’d be willing to bet I’ve raced that track the most of 95-99 percent of people involved in this thread.
So, the majority say great move!
I’m okay with that, but if you’re gonna do it that way watch out for the minority.
They might not appreciate your move.
Ok ok ok edit
I read you guys loud and clear. I’ve sure as heck never said I’m a squeaky clean driver. I do questionable things often.
Maybe this is such a big issue for me given the huge number of races online I’ve done at Interlagos.
It’s a yoooj number.
I guess like @BigJimmy I’m too nice.
I’be never said I’m infallible I’m still honestly totally flabbergasted by this whole situation.
I guess what’s true is this: the majority feel that was a great move.
There’s a minority that feel it was the DEVIL lol.
So if you do this, the likely outcome relative to most is nothing, but to some, outright war.
Pick your poison I guess.
I’m certainly not trying to imply I’ve never done FAR FAR worse there. I’ve probably taken out half of people on the server on that track lol.
I just know how it goes when you make a grey area dove turn one.
I think in worlds fastest gamer first race there was a huge pileup there. I was kinda stoked to watch the program but turned it off after seeing that mess.
FIRDT TURN FIRST RACE PILEUP.
It was stupid and I never watched any after that.
Worlds best can’t make it through one turn clean.
Again I’d be willing to bet I’ve raced that track the most of 95-99 percent of people involved in this thread.
So, the majority say great move!
I’m okay with that, but if you’re gonna do it that way watch out for the minority.
They might not appreciate your move.
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- 651
- New London, CT
- roamingbard13
- 2,216
- Isle of Wight, UK
This is all categorically false. The 911 doesn't need telepathy because he, and every other driver, has mirrors, radar and the timing sheet, which is more than enough to keep track of where your opponents are. He simply isn't using them and that can't be said to be someone else's fault.
It's also more than possible to get around this corner without hitting apex, without exceeding track limits. I should know, I am very bad and often overshoot that apex. It doesn't end in the wall but compromises the T2 line massively. That's why if you can dummy or force someone offline there it's a great opportunity, they are hindered thru two turns then. The Porsche has about 75% of the width of the track available to him without making contact with Ash.
I also disagree here. If I take the inside on entry then I aim to reclaim as much of the outside on exit as possible whilst still leaving room. If I can fully overlap and cut out into the racing line without hitting them, that's exactly what I'll do. It's the fastest way thru the corner. (Sorry for/if double post.)
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- 1,336
- New York
Ferrari pulled the classic dummy and switched to the inside.
Porsche was successfully faked, failed to pay attention to their mirrors/radar, and left to look the fool.
If you brought this to the stewards in real racing they would laugh you out of the office. Unfortunately there are plenty of amateurs driving in this game who will get got by a move like this and instead of conceding they will try to punish the driver who pulled a clean move on them.
Pretty apparent who in this thread falls into that group
Porsche was successfully faked, failed to pay attention to their mirrors/radar, and left to look the fool.
If you brought this to the stewards in real racing they would laugh you out of the office. Unfortunately there are plenty of amateurs driving in this game who will get got by a move like this and instead of conceding they will try to punish the driver who pulled a clean move on them.
Pretty apparent who in this thread falls into that group
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
Watching the video again I do not see how this claim can be made. The Ferrari did so well on brakes that it was in fact going slower than the Porsche at the point of contact. Furthermore, the contact occurred on the inside of the corner. How can you claim that the Ferrari failed to hold the inside when there's nothing to support otherwise other than some arrows that you've drawn in the images?
Are you making the assumption that the Ferrari had no chance to make the corner and was going to fly out wide had there been no contact?
- 651
- New London, CT
- roamingbard13
- 5,669
- Ulricehamn
Outside a specific area of IOW. Middle too
- 424
- Detroit
- Razgriz2118
I'm honestly surprised this is continuing after the whole "I've been victimized" card got pulled since that's usually a sign all of the straws have been grasped and the goalposts had been moved to the edge of the universe already, I thought it would die there.
- 1,685
- United Kingdom
