- 2,052
- United Kingdom
- AWRacing17
I know there's nothing wrong with it(poking at the what's apparently a dirty move) I was showing a move where the lead car (Aston) turns in before I get my front wheels to his front wheels
Views on this move
- Thread starter Ashthebash
- 441 comments
- 20,190 views
- 842
- United Kingdom
- Philtaylor17
I just feel like the very simple, and very odd debate has been lost here.
So just to clarify, the majority agree that it was a good pass, and completely fine.
And a few say that its dirty because, A) he wasn't alongside when braking starting or at some imaginary non adjustable turn in point
Or B) because there was contact despite the fact the Porsche could have easily turned out of it.
Or my personal favourite C) They were past the 100M board come on!
This is nuts
it shouldn't be complicated at all. But, well, here we are
So just to clarify, the majority agree that it was a good pass, and completely fine.
And a few say that its dirty because, A) he wasn't alongside when braking starting or at some imaginary non adjustable turn in point
Or B) because there was contact despite the fact the Porsche could have easily turned out of it.
Or my personal favourite C) They were past the 100M board come on!
This is nuts
it shouldn't be complicated at all. But, well, here we are
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- 3,405
- Canada
Again the 100m board is a reference for braking points into this corner. If you're not at the rear bumper of the guy in front at the point you're jumping on the anchors, you have no right to dive and take an apex on a corner like t1 at Interlagos where hanging way left is key to the drive through the next corner complex.
We can argue all day but I absolutely guarantee you get contact more often than not by making that move and tbh thats all that really matters.
We can argue all day but I absolutely guarantee you get contact more often than not by making that move and tbh thats all that really matters.
- 842
- United Kingdom
- Philtaylor17
Why do I need to be at his bumper, there is no reason why I need to be at any particular spot relative to the other car before the move starts. You will not find any rule in a top series that says that.
If I can get to the apex fully alongside, and not run wide, then it does, not, matter, not at all. If he has such slow reactions that he can't adjust his line then he shouldn't be racing. It isn't the car behinds job to make the car in fronts life easy, its his job not to ram him, or push him off. Getting to the inside and being turned in on can happen yes, it will affect the outside car only, and since its that cars fault if there is contact in this scenario then it doesn't matter, brought it on themselves through crazy bad reactions.
It isn't a track day, maybe that is the confusion, its a high split, highly competitive race. The key word being race.
I can't really say it any clearer, so I'm finished here.
Was good fun, if a bit mindblowing at times
If I can get to the apex fully alongside, and not run wide, then it does, not, matter, not at all. If he has such slow reactions that he can't adjust his line then he shouldn't be racing. It isn't the car behinds job to make the car in fronts life easy, its his job not to ram him, or push him off. Getting to the inside and being turned in on can happen yes, it will affect the outside car only, and since its that cars fault if there is contact in this scenario then it doesn't matter, brought it on themselves through crazy bad reactions.
It isn't a track day, maybe that is the confusion, its a high split, highly competitive race. The key word being race.
I can't really say it any clearer, so I'm finished here.
Was good fun, if a bit mindblowing at times
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FPV MIC
Premium
- 4,320
- Australia
- GT-MIC
As has been mentioned many, many times you don't have to be in any certain theoretical position at any theoretical point on the track. You just have to be able to out brake your opponent into the corner.
What happens, or what the fast line is through the next set of corners after the initial part of the overtake is completed is nothing to do with the overtake itself. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard a commentator say '' 'Driver A' dived down the inside taking 'Driver B' by surprise, 'Driver B' had to open the steering to avoid contact, then 'Driver A' parked it on the apex to stop any chance of the undercut. All done legally and this is what I think would have happened without the contact. That's racing!
While agree it probably will end in contact more often than not it's down to people's inability more than anything. So imo what really matters is that people learn from their mistakes.
@Ashthebash's intentions had been made clear by his aggressive moves from left to right and back again (all legal), the other party just failed to read it and respond correctly. If he'd stayed on the inside line we wouldn't be here now.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
This is nuts
It IS nuts that so many apparently subscribe to the Happy Gilmore school of racing where it’s the lead cars job to avoid any and all crazy lunges...and their fault of contact occurs...
“He should have seen me coming!”
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- 842
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- Philtaylor17
.
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Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
I'll say one thing @Groundfish, your good at twisting statements.
I didn't say it was their job to avoid crazy lunges, a crazy lunge meaning an unsuccessful dive that results in either front to rear contact or running past the apex.
I said that outbraking someone to the apex and being fully alongside at said apex, holding a tight slow apex is not a crazy lunge, its a well executed block pass, and it is more than reasonable to expect an evenly barely competent driver to be able to smoothly open his steering, and either hold his line on the outside, or cut back and slot in behind.
Personally, I suspect you know what I'm on about, but have backed so far into a corner with this you can't swallow your pride with it.
I suspect also you may not have any racing instinct, and rather than develop any have decided to stick to a very flawed and rigid set of unworkable rules.
Anyway, here i am replying again lol.
In all honesty I've enjoyed the laughs here, and the memes ( a lot!
Wow that was uncalled for
- 842
- United Kingdom
- Philtaylor17
I apologise for any offence, it was not intended I promise. I merely called it how I saw it, felt like my words were being twisted in a deliberate manner, and have seen that a few times in this thread, and i stand by that.
If you are happy to retract so am I
If you are happy to retract so am I
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Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Anyone who questions my racing instincts is free to watch my last FIA race.
It’s shared under search tag TPC.
I’m not feeling good after making a joke and receiving a hateful response...
It’s shared under search tag TPC.
I’m not feeling good after making a joke and receiving a hateful response...
- 842
- United Kingdom
- Philtaylor17
Hateful? Wow, ok, well, that it certainly wasn't. Frank and honest, yes. And again, I think you know this. However upsetting someone is not good, I will delete the post now just incase.
And also refrain from discussing this thread.
I did not enjoy having words twisted rather deliberately, quite a shocking experience. I learned a lot from this thread, mostly about how it isn't worth participating unfortunately.
I personally find it crazy that it becomes this over a practice race move..
I genuinely mean this when I say I wish you the best, again, apologies for any unintended offence this apparently caused
And also refrain from discussing this thread.
I did not enjoy having words twisted rather deliberately, quite a shocking experience. I learned a lot from this thread, mostly about how it isn't worth participating unfortunately.
I personally find it crazy that it becomes this over a practice race move..
I genuinely mean this when I say I wish you the best, again, apologies for any unintended offence this apparently caused
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- 659
- Canada
- xPat_McCrotchxx
- 16,478
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
But you're still here posting untruths and lampooning everybody that doesn't agree with you. How many ways do we have to put it to you until you understand that what took place was well within the rules and spirit of motor racing? The contact wasn't intentional, it was a result of the Porsche turning in and not taking notice of the Ferrari on the inside. Don't make up all these stupid theories to prove your point because it's dragged the whole thread down and derailed it completely. Take a walk, or eat a Snickers. One of the two.
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- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
Ross Bentley's got a lot to answer for.
- 659
- Canada
- xPat_McCrotchxx
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- 828
- United Kingdom
What's completely nuts is that you deliberately miss points, twist things, fabricate things, and somehow stick to your guns while all the evidence which is in your face is contrary to what you're saying, meaning you continually wind people up. But then, half the time you contradict yourself anyway.
Overlap before turn in? Check the avatar
Out
- 4,716
- Indiana
- CWM_Spirit
I think something that's being overlooked too much in this conversation is how the turn-in point is defined. Is it the moment the steering deviates from zero degrees or is it the moment the driver actually goes to "set their hands" for the corner? Turn one at Interlagos is a bit funky as there's generally a slight input to the left before the actual entry to the corner. In my opinion, sufficient overlap should be established before there's a commitment to the corner by the driver being overtaken. Meaning, the overlap needs to be made before the driver already has their car loaded up for the corner so much it's impossible for them to deviate from their line (open up the steering) without abandoning the corner entirely.
From the video I see that the Porsche was doing the typical slight-left-before-entry but has not actually turned into the corner yet. By the time the Porsche actually went to set the car into the corner, the Ferrari had sufficient overlap established AND had the car slowed as to not completely send them both off of the race track.
I'll attach some links of me navigating this corner, with the first one being another driver who I have a lot of respect for putting a similar move on me. At the time I didn't think it was dirty and I still feel the same way. Additionally I'll add one or two at the end of other drivers to demonstrate it's not just me who does this.
From the video I see that the Porsche was doing the typical slight-left-before-entry but has not actually turned into the corner yet. By the time the Porsche actually went to set the car into the corner, the Ferrari had sufficient overlap established AND had the car slowed as to not completely send them both off of the race track.
I'll attach some links of me navigating this corner, with the first one being another driver who I have a lot of respect for putting a similar move on me. At the time I didn't think it was dirty and I still feel the same way. Additionally I'll add one or two at the end of other drivers to demonstrate it's not just me who does this.
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- 595
- Stockholm
I don't know, I've read the book too and even posted some quotes up above. I'm guessing that Bentley would side with the majority in this thread that it was an aggressive move but ultimately a fair one.Ross Bentley's got a lot to answer for.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Apology accepted.
- 659
- Canada
- xPat_McCrotchxx
Gracious in defeat.
LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,264
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
A lot has been said on this so I'm probably just repeating things, but I see it as 50:50 racing incident here.
Porsche
- Shouldn't have opened the inside. It's the last lap so he should expect a divebomb.
- If he opened the inside, he should keep an eye on rear view mirror or radar, and be prepared to give you space (or do a cutback).
Ferrari
- A bit of a desparate divebomb from way too far back here. You can't always assume the other guy has perfect 100% awareness at all times because most people don't have mental capacity to look in mirror/radar once they committed to the apex. With the way Interlagos T1 tightens on exit, you'd always expect a collision like this could happen.
- Personally I would just make sure I get a good exit and slipstream to try pass into T4. Much safer that way.
Personally, if I'm the Ferrari driver I would give the place back because it's a dubious pass. Better lose 10 points than have a guy rage at you post race and ruin your reputation in front of the other 18 drivers. But then the Porsche driver shouldn't have revenge punted you in the next corner as well, because he was practically inviting that divebomb.
So, 50:50.
Porsche
- Shouldn't have opened the inside. It's the last lap so he should expect a divebomb.
- If he opened the inside, he should keep an eye on rear view mirror or radar, and be prepared to give you space (or do a cutback).
Ferrari
- A bit of a desparate divebomb from way too far back here. You can't always assume the other guy has perfect 100% awareness at all times because most people don't have mental capacity to look in mirror/radar once they committed to the apex. With the way Interlagos T1 tightens on exit, you'd always expect a collision like this could happen.
- Personally I would just make sure I get a good exit and slipstream to try pass into T4. Much safer that way.
Personally, if I'm the Ferrari driver I would give the place back because it's a dubious pass. Better lose 10 points than have a guy rage at you post race and ruin your reputation in front of the other 18 drivers. But then the Porsche driver shouldn't have revenge punted you in the next corner as well, because he was practically inviting that divebomb.
So, 50:50.
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- 1,354
- Australia
- TPC_Fudsy
Just had a look at my FIA replay. That overpass shadow is very nearly square to the track, there's less than half a metre difference between one side of the track and the other. From the approach it doesn't look square because of a perspective trick due to track camber. Also, it's insanely hard to judge the actual turn in point on the approach to that turn because at least 30m of the braking zone is curved track. Does a car have its steering turned to follow the line of the track or to turn into the corner? In my replay I had steering turned in almost from as far back as the 50m board.
I think the OP's pass was risky but clean.
I think the OP's pass was risky but clean.
- 5,670
- Ulricehamn
I see your reasons but I think you are missing something. The Ferrari is only faster than the Porsche in the curves. His braking distance is maybe 15 meters shorter.
I agree that the Porsche turning in is a racing incident, but from the Ferraris point of view there is nothing dubious about this overtake, it's a textbook outbraking orchestead by a perfectly executed bait and switch.
If anything he was too polite.
And giving it back? Absolutely not. You give back a place that you won in an unfair way.
We're not handing out participation medals in racing. Let's not get there.
The biggest problem in this thread in my point of view is that the vast majority, vast I say, are in agreement that this is fair and a select few can't fathom this and try to use tactics like name calling and twisting words along with blatantly ignoring ever single proof they are not right.
The issue with the overtaking is long settled, it was 100% legal and fair albeit somewhat risky. But sim racing is the place to take risks, because they don't cost money or lives here.
So, the people that keeps calling this dirty even to the point of it justifying a revenge punt: I am absolutely certain you guys meet a overwhelming amount of "Dirty drivers" in the dailies.
I sure hope you refrain from revenge as it's very clear your definition of clean driving is nothing like the majority of players.
- 5,764
- USA
- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
- 2,470
- United Kingdom
- Hasnain282
Actually I did a similar thing in my race yesterday, granted I wasn't planning on making the move at this corner it's just that the car in front broke earlier than I was expecting. I believe I would've made the corner just fine but there was contact in the end so would like to know what you guys think
- 229
- England
So looking for 9 pages ok then ...... um .... I like racing (keeping it on topic.)
So I never did give an opinion on the video and while it's a bit late I may as well throw some fuel on the embers.
What I saw in the vid is a perfectly good pass that I didn't like. I am relatively new to GT Sport and only have just over a thousand races. I have seen that move attempted a lot but that video is the only clean example I could point to. Usually they have ended up with the person being passed punted or other wise put off track as it is a very risky move imo.
I can understand the other points of view given too as they would give folks a bit of confidence in having clean side by side racing going through corners which is something I certainly don't at all have right now.
As a general rule I tend to go with the view of any pass is clean as long as it doesn't impede, bump or otherwise make the driver being passed have to take avoiding action . It won't cover every situation 100 % but as I said as a general rule it works for me and that is how I try to race.
Just my thoughts and you may take them or leave them as it suits your preference.
)So I never did give an opinion on the video and while it's a bit late I may as well throw some fuel on the embers.
What I saw in the vid is a perfectly good pass that I didn't like. I am relatively new to GT Sport and only have just over a thousand races. I have seen that move attempted a lot but that video is the only clean example I could point to. Usually they have ended up with the person being passed punted or other wise put off track as it is a very risky move imo.
I can understand the other points of view given too as they would give folks a bit of confidence in having clean side by side racing going through corners which is something I certainly don't at all have right now.
As a general rule I tend to go with the view of any pass is clean as long as it doesn't impede, bump or otherwise make the driver being passed have to take avoiding action . It won't cover every situation 100 % but as I said as a general rule it works for me and that is how I try to race.
Just my thoughts and you may take them or leave them as it suits your preference.
- 2,039
- Bristol, UK
- OJBrit
Same.
I'm very surprised that a classic and clean racing move is being called into question.
The only thing that makes this different from a real life move is that neither driver is a real life racing driver (I assume) and therefore do not know how each other reacts on a track or their relative skillsets. However that should still not stop someone atempting a well executed move. I'd have thought the Frenchman being an A driver would have had more racing awareness but at least on this occasion they did not show it.
Apart from going to 9 pages I'm not sure what else this thread has to offer.
