Views on this move

[Timm Sheehan]

(snip) I think PD should implement areas on track where no overtaking is allowed a bit like the DRS areas in F1 and I'm sure dive bombing would be eradicated.. (snip)

I can't tell if you're bring serious?
Just in case you are, its a race track, for racing. Overtaking is "allowed" anywhere. And that's not how DRS areas work
Genuinely confused.

Mr. P please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of your quote but as I believe what you are saying is PD should implement certain "passing zones" just like F1 has implemented these "DRS Zones" on tracks. Not a bad idea but honestly not what I would want to see in GTS (or GT7).

If you take Red Bull Ring as an example you can see F1's DRS zones, if PD limited passing to just these areas of the tracks there would be a very limited passing zones and would restrict racing severely. Not what I would want (and obviously most wouldn't want this either) BUT the idea does present a method to prevent dive bombs, punting, and other contact penalties.

Historically DRS was created by the FIA because passing was NOT occurring and this gave the teams incentives to pass while on track.

I didn't want to generate a major discussion with this post but do value other's opinions and can see some merit in the original idea Mr. P posted.

Enjoy your Racing!

 

[Groundfish]

Ok. This sequence begins at the initial brake application of the Ferrari. At no point does he get right to apex, or closer to apex, nor can he stop because he’s full brake. I’m sure all of those here touting this behavior as a valid “move” would be happy if every time they tried turn 1 cars would do this right? :::rolls eyes:::

The sequence ends at the impact point.
On THAT turn, it’s a divebomb
Look in particular at the 4th photo. The Ferrari isn’t even IN the shadow yet! AND the shadow angles across track. The right side of said shadow is further down track than left! The Porsche is turning in at THAT point!
Honestly I’m totally flabbergasted and don’t understand what you guys are even looking at.

 

[Ashthebash]

@meekrab @Bambi I hope this is ok for you both and you don't mind how I've put it together

Images show the speed difference and should show the level of steering input if you look closely

We know how the overlap was under the shadow, so tried to find the moment of turn in and you should see the red dot has moved towards the left, used chase cam to show position in comparison to that suggested racing line as it's pretty close to the turn in point

 

[Mr P]

Mr. P please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of your quote but as I believe what you are saying is PD should implement certain "passing zones" just like F1 has implemented these "DRS Zones" on tracks. Not a bad idea but honestly not what I would want to see in GTS (or GT7).

View attachment 995332


If you take Red Bull Ring as an example you can see F1's DRS zones, if PD limited passing to just these areas of the tracks there would be a very limited passing zones and would restrict racing severely. Not what I would want (and obviously most wouldn't want this either) BUT the idea does present a method to prevent dive bombs, punting, and other contact penalties.

Historically DRS was created by the FIA because passing was NOT occurring and this gave the teams incentives to pass while on track.

I didn't want to generate a major discussion with this post but do value other's opinions and can see some merit in the original idea Mr. P posted.

Enjoy your Racing!

I personally don't race online anymore in GTSport .. I have raced 11 times in total going by my stats on Kudos prime, the reason I stopped was due to dive bombers simple as that! I am racing clean and fair and pulling away and when I get to a braking zone they divebomb me and drive off into the sunset... not my cup of tea! I know clean racing exists when you get the right people in a private room but the majority of open lobbies you will end up with dive bombers desperate to pass you at any cost! my suggestion for a no overtake zone similar to DRS system was basically for the braking zones where dive bombing occurs as I couldn't think of a reason to dive bomb if those kind of rules where in place I was basically just clutching at straws for a solution to keep impatient drivers in check

Enjoy your debate guys and have fun racing

 

[Spirit]

With all of the posted images my original opinion still stands. Yes it's a divebomb and yes it's aggressive. However aggressive moves are not automatically dirty. What keeps it from being dirty is the fact that the Ferrari pulled the car up on brakes before the corner and would have made it regardless of contact. Additionally, there was reasonable time for the Porsche driver to read and react to the overtake attempt as to not turn in on the Ferrari.

A divebomb only becomes a dirty maneuver when it's done so late that there's not enough time to slow the car down for the corner and/or when it's done so late that the other vehicle cannot adequately react to the situation. Of course exactly what those boundaries are is open to interpretation but from everything I've seen none of the criteria have been met, making the overtake clean and valid. Would a pass like this be allowed at a track day? Chances are hell no, but this is racing.

 

[Philtaylor17]

I mean, that last still, correct me if I'm wrong but he is pretty much completely alongside is he not?

Alongside at point of contact ( avoidable contact if Porsche opened steering ) yes, makes apex without running wide, yes.

Yeah it was a surprise move, you could define it as "aggressive within the rules" maybe , but thats not getting him a penalty in any real life series.

There are good arguments being made as to why it is clean that aren't being addressed, possibly, because they are correct

 

[NevilleNobody]

Ok. This sequence begins at the initial brake application of the Ferrari.
View attachment 995340 .

This discussion is over after seeing this. We are past the 100m board, the lead car is approaching the 50m board and you guys are saying it is fine for the OP to attempt a pass from THAT FAR BACK and expect the lead car to somehow magically anticipate the massive dive bomb and take a wide line into a corner that drops off to the left?

This move is even worse than I thought it was after the OP.

 

[watto79]

my suggestion for a no overtake zone similar to DRS system

Again, not how DRS zones work. Almost the opposite in fact.

 

[Philtaylor17]

This discussion is over after seeing this. We are past the 100m board, the lead car is approaching the 50m board and you guys are saying it is fine for the OP to attempt a pass from THAT FAR BACK and expect the lead car to somehow magically anticipate the massive dive bomb? an dtake a wide line into a corner that drops off to the left?

This move is even worse than I thought it was after the OP.

Seriously? The discussion should be over, because its so not dirty

If he gets to the apex alongside and doesn't run wide it doesn't matter if he braked from 1000 Meters behind the Porsche, if your that much faster then fair play to you

What difference does it make how far back he is? He doesn't "punt" him off, he doesn't force him wide, Porsche driver can use his radar or peripheral and reflexes to use his steering and not collide you cannot just turn in on someone and then say it was dirty, even if you weren't expecting them to be there, that's what reflexes are for, and even if there is minor door rubbing, that's very common in tin top series, and certainly isn't illegal

 

[Mr P]

Again, not how DRS zones work. Almost the opposite in fact.

I know how DRS zones work I just meant similar... designated areas with no overtake rules or regulated areas to make racing less pushy

I'm out of this debate now.. have fun

 

[ZiggyS80]

Difference there is that it is an obvious mistake by Stroll, he misses the corner, unlike here. See the video I posted bottom of a page or so back for how it should be done.

Haha, I'm not holding up Lance Stroll as an example of how it should be done. The correlations I was making was that the defender maintained awareness to avoid contact, that he would have had no issue if he made the corner, and that if the consensus of drivers is that is an acceptable move then he would block in those situations in the future.

 

[Furinkazen]

Haha, I'm not holding up Lance Stroll as an example of how it should be done. The correlations I was making was that the defender maintained awareness to avoid contact, that he would have had no issue if he made the corner, and that if the consensus of drivers is that is an acceptable move then he would block in those situations in the future.

But alternatively the defending driver is not supposed to block (move) under braking, or if you're in Indycar blocking is not allowed in any way.

 

[Groundfish]

This move is even worse than I thought it was after the OP.

I know, when I took those it was shocking. What’s worse is those condoning this behavior. People don’t understand racing.
It’s not the lead cars job when he’s ahead and has the corner to avoid if someone chucks it up there.
Here’s a photo from the textbook:

 

[Philtaylor17]

Are you real with this?

I dont mean to be like, funny or anything, I promise.

But, do you guys watch any real racing? Or is it just sim stuff?

And if you do watch real racing, do you find you call for penalties constantly that aren't given?

Because applying these standards, a lot, and I mean A LOT, of IRL overtakes would become illegal.

I also feel like its not really great form to make comments on people "condoning behaviour" when they are making logical arguments, which are just getting ignored completely whilst you complain about the "behaviour" of those making them.

As for the above image, he was further alongside than that, and closing speed makes a difference, no still image can show the full picture, which is why stewards use multiple videos not simple still photographs.

As for that people don't understand racing comment at the end, there really isn't a need for that. I could say something, but I will choose to bite my tongue

 

[SimonO88]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I was scavenging for strategies this morning when I came across this thread. My thoughts are that the move is legit. Low and behold, middle stint of FIA tonight and I pull this out of the bag:



I suppose the difference is, the person I overtook had the awareness to expect a move.

 

[watto79]

I know how DRS zones work I just meant similar... designated areas with no overtake rules or regulated areas to make racing less pushy

I'm out of this debate now.. have fun

Its just the thought of a no overtaking zone on a race track blows my mind. I really can't get my head around that one.

 

[El_Beardo]

Anyone who thinks that move isn't legit, needs to start watching GT or Touring Car racing.

It's fine. A little aggressive, but fine.

 

[Groundfish]

As for the above image, he was further alongside than that, and closing speed makes a difference, no still image can show the full picture, which is why stewards use multiple videos not simple still photographs.

No he was not. The shadow is way further down track on the right side of the track. I mean the pictures I put up show the positions of the cars how can you think he’s got any claim to that corner? Have you ever seen Interlagos?
In order to have textbook corner rights he should be alongside by the turn in point. He is not.
The lead car stays inside, sees he is way too far back to claim corner rights, returns towards the racing line, enters the corner at the limit then mid turn in comes a blue triangle missile on radar. Case closed.

also feel like its not really great form to make comments on people "condoning behaviour" when they are making logical arguments, which are just getting ignored completely whilst you complain about the "behaviour" of those making them.

Well I can tell you I’ve raced Interlagos hundreds of times, and that move right there will start an immediate war with whoever you perpetrate it on. That’s truth, because it’s a dirty dive. You can make that move right by getting next to the lead car before he’s mid turn, it’s not rocket science here.
Ash was never in position to overtake, he was behind the whole way.
Again that move in a sport mode race will set off an instant war and cars will be off track and post race chat will be vicious!
Ash said that’s what happened!
Again because he was in the wrong!
No one on my end is saying don’t make a move. Only if you do, do it right. Maybe the guy ahead was in cockpit mode, saw that start to unfold, and thought my gosh this guys not going for THAT is he?
Then it’s omg
Then :::boom::: crash.

 

[Philtaylor17]

"Textbook corner rights" dude come on, your killing me

And yes, In that last image he is very very much alongside, if he is 1.2cm behind his bumper he is still alongside.

And yes I've raced Interlagos plenty of times, watched plenty of races there too.

Im just glad F1 stewards don't apply a rule that you must be alongside.
"Unfortunately Daniel, you were 0.21mm behind Esteban when you braked, and he had to open his steering 5 degrees to avoid you, therefore, you are disqualified, and banned from all future events, please remember that this is racing, which means strictly no racing, okay?"

As for this "Ash was never in position to overtake, he was behind the whole way" I must confess, that like Ash I tend to do most of my overtakes from behind, very very rarely do I overtake from in front. Its spectacular when I do though.

 

[Groundfish]

"Textbook corner rights" dude come on, your killing me

And yes, In that last image he is very very much alongside, if he is 1.2cm behind his bumper he is still alongside

Hey, you think it’s fine, more power to ya.
I suggest doing it against a Brazilian in sport mode, watch the reaction you get.
Those guys know what’s up around there, they will respect a person doings things right. But stuff like this they don’t tolerate. Honestly it’s moves like this that ruin sport mode many times.
Dive from another zip code, crash, fight.
More power to ya man.

 

[Philtaylor17]

So, your saying that what's killing sport mode, is people over reacting to being overtaken? I would probably agree with that. I would also say that taking someone out because you weren't a fan of a pass ( not talking about a ram here ) with a revenge punt is never justifiable, in any region.

In all seriousness though, its fine for us all to have different opinions on racing, but I think its possible to be overly harsh on people.

Hopefully you understand I mean no offence I just found some of the comments a little over the top really.

 

[NevilleNobody]

I've been watching motorsport for 40 years, relentless, and a good portion of incidents I tin tops is just this situation, dive bombs.

They were past the 100m board! Come on.

 

[Philtaylor17]

I've been watching motorsport for 40 years, relentless, and a good portion of incidents I tin tops is just this situation, dive bombs.

They were past the 100m board! Come on.

Ah of course! I forgot about the no racing after the 100M board rule! That's barley.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I've been watching motorsport for 40 years, relentless, and a good portion of incidents I tin tops is just this situation, dive bombs.

They were past the 100m board! Come on.

Question: if the Porsche had run wider and there where room all the way through the corner would it have been alright then?

 

[Philtaylor17]

 

[HaydenFan69]

The second you break this down frame by frame you’re overthinking this.

What I see at full speed from Ashthebash’s video is one of an overagressive, yet relatively safe move. Only because the Porsche hit him are we taking about this.

If Ash nailed this and posted here, we’d be slapping his back and saying, “Well done mate,” all the while knowing most of us don’t have the balls, nor skill, to make that move stick.

 

[Pigems]

Ok, Question. Is this a dirty pass too then? Same corner, no overlap before braking, very similar to @Ashthebash ’s clip. Only in this case the other driver was fully aware of his surroundings.

 

[Famine]

Is this a dirty pass too then?

Disgusting - you're past the 100m board and not even braking, and didn't even have overlap when you reached the shadow.


Or, you know, something.

 

[AfraidRacer]

In the real world this would have ended both their races and a significant amount of my blame would be on the overtaker. But, as it was a lobby race in a computer game I couldn't actually give a monkeys.

@Pigems @Philtaylor17 I don’t agree with Groundfish obviously, I’ve done a ton of moves from far back. But interested in your take on who the blame would be put on if this was IRL.

 

[Pigems]

I have no idea how the officials sort out fault in real racing, I don’t watch racing.