Vintage Cars (1920's-1930's) Please

[analog]

I think it's long overdue that GT should finally have a significant (not saying huge) selection of vintage cars, not just classics from the fifties onwards (although always more than welcome) nor irrelevant oddities (in a driving game) from the 19th Century like GT4 offered, but a few key essential and iconic cars from the specific period between both World Wars where cars finally became interesting (at least from the perspective of inclusion in a videogame) and huge technological progress was made whilst still being so unlike anything build after WW2 that it'll offer a genuinely different (and challenging) experience currently not available.

They have slightly touched upon this subject though, GT4 had the Model-T which I hugely enjoyed despite not offering much in the performance department, it also offered the pre-war Auto-Union yet this was a straight line speed record car which could only be used on 2 tracks (one being the Nordschleife) and which didn't offer much enjoyment as it inherently wasn't build for cornering.
GT5 has ofcourse the WW2 period covered (which I welcomed by the way ) yet the only thing that might vaguely resemble a vintage car experience is the Tank Car (also carried over from GT4 but now enjoyable to drive with GT5's physics) yet saying that probably doesn't do justice to the experience offered by lot of widely varying vintage cars (a lot of which were light and nimble instead).

With Kaz being a Pebble Beach judge for a couple of years now he must have encountered them yet there still seems to be a reluctancy to fully embrace this period (not just by PD it has to be said) and give us the full spectrum regarding periods of car history at least.
The big question is, is this reluctancy justified or not, is it just a niche within a niche and the interest for these kind of vehicles only shared by a very small minority or could it prove to be a real eye-opener and one of the key distinguishing new aspects of GT6?

I mean, they've made a real leftfield decision to include 2 WW2 military vehicles which they could've foreseen weren't gonna be universally greeted with enthusiasm (apart from people like me but then again I support motorbikes and even 18-wheelers to be included as well, seriously), then why not make a more logical extension by including some road and race cars from the twenties and thirties?

This is not supposed to be wishlist (although some pictures and clips trying to illustrate your enthusiasm or try to enthuse others for this period in general and not just specific cars only isn't a problem) but more to see if my argument or wish is widely shared or whether this thread will sink Titanic-style.
One more thing, I'm not a specific fan of this period nor very knowledgeable about the cars in question, it just strikes me as odd to exclude this significant period from GT (and most other racing games) whilst they could offer so much fun.

 

[Ills1999]

I am in complete and total agreement.

I could not care less about the latest and greatest supercars and race cars and in my opinion that group is highly over-representated.

 

[Dean]

I would like more classics, than we've got in GT5. Go classics 👍!

 

[TuneR-]

Yes please for classic/vintage cars, especially classic race cars!

 

[analog]

I could not care less about the latest and greatest supercars and race cars and in my opinion that group is highly over-representated.

Well, as much as I also enjoy my moderns, I do agree that for a large part (certain supercars or racecars) they do tend to offer slight variations of the same thing, even though subtle differences can make a whole lot of difference.

So it's not just me wondering why this period is overlooked for the sake of further completing the 'GT is a virtual car encyclopedia'-argument (which it never can be) but mostly because some of these cars seem to offer a more demanding and fun experience, especially in a videogame (in real life perhaps a bit too demanding), no modern car can offer or at least not in the same way.

 

[Ills1999]

overrepresented. not representated...

Super vid, that, beautiful, brutish machines.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Personally I think they should focus on having a depth in the category. By that I mean having a decent choice of cars throughout a given era, not just having a select one or two cars per decade.

 

[nascarfn]

yes we need lots of classic race cars and maybe even a few throwback racetracks

 

[Scuderia Paul]

We should have the Maserati 250F. One of the most beautiful and legendary race cars driven by Juan Manuel Fangio.

 

[Grand Prix]

Yes, having more beercan cars is always good.

Decent power and weight, would be great fun to race with on Comfort Hards! Cars from the 1910s and earlier would be a little too slow perhaps, but 1920s and 1930s machines were great. Straight-8 engines and 4 wheel drifts babe.

 

[eran0004]

A modern vintage would be nice too:

Morgan 3-wheeler

 

[W3H5]

Couldn't agree more. 👍

I've been desperate to see some old Alfas or Bugattis or even some old Spykers in a GT game, especially the Bugatti Boat Tail which I can see is pictured above.

The enjoyment of having a vintage race selection would be immense for many people.

 

[VXR]

The Bugatti driver is keeping it in a wonderfully straight line whilst pulling the handbrake on the middle wheel.

I'd love to see more vintage racers. The sort of cars that turn up at Prescott and other hillclimbs would be a fantastic inclusion.

 

[Griffith500]

Definitely!

Not just the cars, but the racing too. It was so much more varied back then - that is, all "disciplines" had equal standing, more or less. If we could have just a handful of, say, inter-war cars and some environments to use them in, with plenty of flexibility in rules and configurations etc., I don't think a comparative lack of depth will matter too much.

If we had the means, say, to organise a hill climb or classic rally or trial, it could be a lot of unusual fun. I don't expect PD to spend time on separate modes, just allow us to customise the rules.

 

[analog]

Personally I think they should focus on having a depth in the category. By that I mean having a decent choice of cars throughout a given era, not just having a select one or two cars per decade.

Ideally yes, although certain decades probably 'deserve' bigger attention than others, given the limited time and resources.
I can completely understand the main car selection being those build since the fifties, and perhaps even since the sixties as is currently the case.
But since the twenties and thirties were such an important era and a lot of those cars having the sort of performance which could be appreciated by a lot of players as opposed to the era that preceded it perhaps, I'd prefer the majority of prewar cars being from this era than a more equal distribution of the complete era from the late 19th Century until WW2 but that's personal ofcourse.

And as for the cars in question, I didn't necessarily mean to focus on the racecars or exotics of this era (although the same argument of limited time and resources counts here too) but to include perhaps more humdrum production cars as well, with the potential to turn them into period RM versions or Hot Rods perhaps.

@Griffith500, trials and hillclimbs (although being a particular British thing I guess ) could be done if PD decided to include a rough terrain 'free roam' map (which could also be used for other disciplines obviously, not least rallying or to use/test SUV's and offroad cars) in which you could then also define a route by marking a specific path (a bit like the course creator) but that's another discussion.

 

[magawolaz]

I'm with you OP, more vintage cars please love them (see signature)

 

[Griffith500]

Ideally yes, although certain decades probably 'deserve' bigger attention than others, given the limited time and resources.
I can completely understand the main car selection being those build since the fifties, and perhaps even since the sixties as is currently the case.
But since the twenties and thirties were such an important era and a lot of those cars having the sort of performance which could be appreciated by a lot of players as opposed to the era that preceded it perhaps, I'd prefer the majority of prewar cars being from this era than a more equal distribution of the complete era from the late 19th Century until WW2 but that's personal ofcourse.

And as for the cars in question, I didn't necessarily mean to focus on the racecars or exotics of this era (although the same argument of limited time and resources counts here too) but to include perhaps more humdrum production cars as well, with the potential to turn them into period RM versions or Hot Rods perhaps.

@Griffith500, trials and hillclimbs (although being a particular British thing I guess ) could be done if PD decided to include a rough terrain 'free roam' map (which could also be used for other disciplines obviously, not least rallying or to use/test SUV's and offroad cars) in which you could then also define a route by marking a specific path (a bit like the course creator) but that's another discussion.

Yep, they were only intended as examples of the diversity that is still left untapped - I have no particular attachment to either discipline, but it's worth noting that Colin Chapman first started making cars for trials; the Lotus MkI was made in 1948, so it was still going on then. The fact that they did everything with these old cars should be reason enough to include them; a sort of genesis type thing regarding car culture as a whole.

Improvements to the course creator are, hopefully, a given, and it already has open terrains (a few per theme), we're just not "allowed" to use them as such. Although, they are a bit uninteresting for trials or the sports that followed, given they lack small-scale detail (I think what I really want is a proper successor to Screamer 4x4, if I'm thinking of that kind of driving, but there's no harm in GT providing even rudimentary means for "exploration" etc. on the way to tackling something like Paris-Dakar). Hill climbs and what we now call rally stages should be easy enough with the tool even in its current state. It should lend itself well to much of the racing of that era, being as it was set on long loops or stages of public roads much of the time.

I agree about the era, it was a great time for motor vehicle development. It was only really materials at that time that were truly lacking, as all the fundamentals of the current understanding that makes race cars and passenger cars alike tick along were already beginning to be understood soon after the turn of last century. Of course, as is sadly the case for many things, this was really kicked into action by WWI, and later cemented by WWII (the internal combustion engine was "mature" by that point, certainly, and had already distilled itself out of various alternative approaches).
Watching these videos is testament to these cars' "completeness" - for starters, the racing cars sound like proper racers, a sound that persisted until the 60s, practically, and the role of aerodynamics is clearly visible (although not downforce just yet, obviously.) I remember being gobsmacked at Goodwood the first time I went when I saw and heard these things flying around like proper cars, thoroughly dispelling the notion in my mind that old cars are boring.


In short this was the era that cars stopped being mere "motorised carriages" and started being their own thing.

 

[arora]

Anyone who does not want a few beer cans has no idea what racing is all about, no discussion about it tbh.

Common on now Kaz.

 

[Dan_]

As always, analog is requesting more vintage material to be in the next Gran Turismo installment, I couldn't agree more.

Not to turn this into a wishlist, but just because I'm inclined to like weird but clever things: Alfa P3 Tipo B Aerodinamica:

There is so much we're missing for not having pre WWII machinery, or even the american land yachts. Mr. Yamauchi attends regularly to classic car events throughout the globe, he's always at GFS and several other meetings, I sincerely am hoping that he does put some resources onto getting at least a couple of these in the game, though.

 

[analog]

As always, analog is requesting more vintage material to be in the next Gran Turismo installment, I couldn't agree more.

I am quite predictable sometimes ain't I? But it's something worth persisting with (even though no doubt a futile pursuit), as opposed to my more outlandish requests which arguably are a less logical fit to a GT-game.
Like Griffith500 correctly observed, this is the period where cars stopped being merely motorised carriages and so much of the aspects of the cars we enjoy now were already present, albeit less developed or civilized which is exactly the reason why they could offer fun in a videogame.

Would you believe for example that development of the original Citroën DS launched in 1955 already started in the mid to late thirties?
This period deserves more attention and love than it's currently getting in driving/racing games, and the historic factor is even largely irrelevant, it's the glorious cars produced then which'll offer thrills (and let's not forget stunning visuals and sounds) which shouldn't be so easily neglected or trivialized.

Sometimes you need to look back to go forward, in this case Kaz needs to look way back to find there is a plethora of untouched treasures which could refresh the whole GT-experience (we can then talk 18-wheelers for the next installment I suppose ).

 

[interpolfan11]

Good thread topic, completely agree. 👍

 

[Dan_]

That's very true, also for those who are in the 'driving involvement' camp, these cars had extremely revvy and powerful multicylinder engines, very poor suspension and tire design and were featherlight, even though I have never experienced one of these in real life ( and I probably never will ), I must say that is difficult to believe in a more pure driving experience than offered by these cars.

Fortunately, we know that polyphony has dedicated personnel to channeling requests from the community into the brainstorms ( Kaz himself stated this... ), so threads as organized and opinion-oriented like this one may contribute to their game design phylosophy somehow. Keep 'em coming I'd say.

Nice touch about the DS though, now I gotta do some research. Much appreciated mate. 👍

 

[Lock2Lock]

@OP
I would love to have them in GT. I actually miss the vintage cars from GT4.

 

[analog]

Fortunately, we know that polyphony has dedicated personnel to channeling requests from the community into the brainstorms ( Kaz himself stated this... ), so threads as organized and opinion-oriented like this one may contribute to their game design phylosophy somehow. Keep 'em coming I'd say.

Let's hope they pick up on this, and as for this thread, so far the reactions seem universally supportive so not much of a discussion.
Guess this isn't a controversial addition but neither one that really enthuses many aside from the usual suspects, you either really want them or you couldn't care less it seems.

Outside a few notable exceptions, it's extremely rare these cars pop up in any wishlist threads (although perhaps the kind of people who can appreciate these machines know better than posting in wishlists....oh how snobbish ) and maybe it's simply a case of this period not automatically appearing on the radar of those inclined to play videogames.

To be honest, it wasn't on mine either for a long time, in fact PD themselves are responsible for my 'mini-crusade' by offering a few vintage cars in GT4 whilst leaving a huge gap inbetween which started me to wonder why that is.
And after picking up one of the PS2 TOCA-titles which happened to include a Mercedes W125 (but horrible physics-engine) I became convinced this period being wrongfully overlooked.

 

[Grand Prix]

No excuse for not having this in GT6 with the Bugatti license IMO.

That, and the Type 35 GP car would be great inclusions in the Bugatti dealership.

 

[analog]

No excuse for not having this in GT6 with the Bugatti license IMO.

Yeah, only the brands already included offer enough possibilities, although the Japanese examples are gonna be thinly spread (surely that won't be the reason? ) but still.

Slightly before the first Evo there was this.

Falling right into the period I'm talking about is the first Toyota.

Okay, Mazda was still missing one wheel until 1960 but already sporting half the racing colours of the 787B!

 

[Dean]

I would like this beauty in GT6:

Sorry for the bad image... I took it myself, back in March '11, at the Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart, Germany .

 

[analog]

I'd love that car too but this thread isn't for classics in general but specific for classic (or better put vintage, so there's a distinction) cars built roughly between WW1 and WW2 as that's the period which is still missing.

 

[Dean]

I accidentally posted the wrong photo, but I've fixed that now. Sorry .

 

[analog]

What? They've started modelling?

Oops, false alarm.