What does GT5 have over FM3?

[Darkpitiless]

• open wheel cars
• dynamic weather
• dynamic time of day
• my lounge
• custom public lobbies
• active aerodynamics
• better animation of suspension movement
• an affordable steering wheel is available
• steering via gamepad feels more direct
• license tests
• special events
• better lighting
• up to 16 cars on track (but frame rate suffers)

[*]open wheel cars .. Whats that?

[*]dynamic weather .. Boring.. And you can't choose you're fav weather.

[*]dynamic time of day .. Useless. It's just not fun anymore.

[*]my lounge .. No where near Forza's online ecperience.

[*]custom public lobbies .. No where near Forza's online ecperience.

[*]active aerodynamics .. Respect.

[*]better animation of suspension movement .. Respect.

[*]an affordable steering wheel is available .. Respect.

[*]steering via gamepad feels more direct .. Have even used a 360 controller in Froza3? Don't think so.

[*]license tests .. Respect.

[*]special events .. Respect.

[*]better lighting .. Respect.

[*]up to 16 cars on track (but frame rate suffers) .. 16
so what? it's not like you'lll be counting ever car you pass + it just killed the graphics.

 

[GT Motion]

I usually never see less than a couple thousand at a visit.

When are you guys online? I usually go on in the evenings here on the West coast. Last time I was there there were like 50 people in circuit and then less than 50 in the rest of the categories, probably more than 100 but I mean really? This game sold over over a million copies.

 

[NOS Waster]

Considering the amount of improvements seen from FM1 to FM2, then FM2 to FM3, it seems like they are consistently doing a good job improving.


True. I was talking current gen consoles. Sorry.

If talking about consoles only, then your statement is true. I should have realized that you were talking about consoles, so my apologies

 

[porsche 9146]

GT5 has the following major features that FM3 does not:

weather (and, by extent, working windshield wipers) (on limited tracks)
dynamic time-of-day (and, by extent, night racing and working headlights) (on limited tracks)
multi-surface racing (snow and gravel) (on limited tracks)
16 cars on track (in limited events)

FM3 has the following major features that GT5 does not:

engine swaps
drivetrain swaps
car classification
customisable liveries
the "storefront", a way to share user-generated content
leaderboards

 

[Bogie 19th]

I own both too and I totally agree with you. I just want to add to one big issue that is just not mentioned enough in this thread:

1. The most popular racing wheel for sim players is the G25/G27. You can't use those in Forza. That's a HUGE NEGATIVE. I use a DFP, another very popular wheel and I can't use that in Forza. I had to buy that horrible MS wheel. This is a really big deal.

Nah, the better wheel to buy is the Fanatec. Not only is it a better wheel, but it works on the Xbox, PC and PS3.

 

[ValiantThorr]

Yeah, they do improve, however, that short development cycle leads to a certain lack of polish.

And that 'two steps forward, one step back' feel I got from FM2 to FM3, with the online lobbies, for exammple.

That was not due to T10 open lobby feature being removed from FM3, but was external server providers that didnt want open lobby's, as Kaz is realizing now with connection problems.

 

[toothache]

Forza on the otherhand sounds wonderful. Every car sounds like it should

I love it when you people say this ^

How do you know what every car should sound like?

When you play a car sound from a video clip on youtube ..you are not getting the real true sound.

^^Those sounds are distorted recorded on cell phone cams etc....

Also car in GT5 when you are out of cockpit view sound a lot louder and much better.
My only disappointment with car sounds in GT5 is when you go in a tunnel .. the sound stays the same doesn't magnify at all ....that sux !!!!

No bonu$ for the sound designers for this oversight!!!

 

[GT Motion]

Nah, the better wheel to buy is the Fanatec. Not only is it a better wheel, but it works on the Xbox, PC and PS3.

I bought the Fanatec GT3RS and was in constant contact with Fanatec and the owner of Fanatec when waiting on and trying to service the wheel. I went back to the G25 because it was the better wheel imo.

 

[CarreraGT]

Personally, I feel stuck in Mediocre-ville with both games.

FM3 is definitely a step up, but just not quite there.

GT5 is a step up in graphics and physics, but they fumbled the ball, cutting events and tracks,
and implementing this archaic level-up stuff, not to mention several other WT*s, hence failing to capitalize on the improvements.

I guess Mediocre-ville will have to do, till the next release.

Have to agree with u there. Don't get me wrong I love GT5 but it's not quite all I was hoping it would be. The physics and graphics are incredible but I was just hoping for that something extra that would allow it to be more than just another GT game (not that there's really anything wrong with that).

Not going to lie, I have always been a GT fan but I'm pretty interested to see what T10 can deliver in FM4...

 

[Snow_leopard]

[*]open wheel cars .. Whats that?

[*]dynamic weather .. Boring.. And you can't choose you're fav weather.

[*]dynamic time of day .. Useless. It's just not fun anymore.

[*]my lounge .. No where near Forza's online ecperience.

[*]custom public lobbies .. No where near Forza's online ecperience.

[*]active aerodynamics .. Respect.

[*]better animation of suspension movement .. Respect.

[*]an affordable steering wheel is available .. Respect.

[*]steering via gamepad feels more direct .. Have even used a 360 controller in Froza3? Don't think so.

[*]license tests .. Respect.

[*]special events .. Respect.

[*]better lighting .. Respect.

[*]up to 16 cars on track (but frame rate suffers) .. 16
so what? it's not like you'lll be counting ever car you pass + it just killed the graphics.

open wheels that formula 1 and evry races that u use a car whit open wheels for example formula 1

 

[NOS Waster]

[*]open wheel cars .. Whats that?

[*]dynamic weather .. Boring.. And you can't choose you're fav weather.

[*]dynamic time of day .. Useless. It's just not fun anymore.

[*]my lounge .. No where near Forza's online ecperience.

[*]custom public lobbies .. No where near Forza's online ecperience.

[*]active aerodynamics .. Respect.

[*]better animation of suspension movement .. Respect.

[*]an affordable steering wheel is available .. Respect.

[*]steering via gamepad feels more direct .. Have even used a 360 controller in Froza3? Don't think so.

[*]license tests .. Respect.

[*]special events .. Respect.

[*]better lighting .. Respect.

[*]up to 16 cars on track (but frame rate suffers) .. 16
so what? it's not like you'lll be counting ever car you pass + it just killed the graphics.

1: Open wheel cars are Formula 1 and cars of the like

2: You can choose your own weather when you go online; so yes, you can choose.

3: You can choose your own time of day. Go online. The time of day seems a little better when running a long race where the time scale is lower.

4: The "My Lounge" and Open Lobbies allow people customize their own race and allows everyone to free roam while waiting for a race. It isn't a flawed matchmaking hopper system. Neither is better than the other, though because Forza has a lot of nice game modes in their online that are just plain fun. Soccer, Cat an Mouse, etc. I can't deny that Forza has amazing game modes.

5: Feeling of a 360 controller is very detached from the car. The speed sensitivity is too much. There is also this problem with the PS3, but the problem is ameliorated when using a wheel. More wheels are compatible with the PS3 instead of the 360, but in general a controller is not the way to go to play a driving sim.

6: Getting 16 cars on track didn't kill the graphics. The PS3's capabilities limited the graphics that could be used and the PS3's capabilities are STILL more than the new Xbox 360. 16 still isn't very good considering i can find a 50+ person race on PC sims. . .

Note: the order of my comments are in response to the ones you struck out.

 

[Snow_leopard]

1: Open wheel cars are Formula 1 and cars of the like

2: You can choose your own weather when you go online; so yes, you can choose.

3: You can choose your own time of day. Go online. The time of day seems a little better when running a long race where the time scale is lower.

4: The "My Lounge" and Open Lobbies allow people customize their own race and allows everyone to free roam while waiting for a race. It isn't a flawed matchmaking hopper system. Neither is better than the other, though because Forza has a lot of nice game modes in their online that are just plain fun. Soccer, Cat an Mouse, etc. I can't deny that Forza has amazing game modes.

5: Feeling of a 360 controller is very detached from the car. The speed sensitivity is too much. There is also this problem with the PS3, but the problem is ameliorated when using a wheel. More wheels are compatible with the PS3 instead of the 360, but in general a controller is not the way to go to play a driving sim.

6: Getting 16 cars on track didn't kill the graphics. The PS3's capabilities limited the graphics that could be used and the PS3's capabilities are STILL more than the new Xbox 360. 16 still isn't very good considering i can find a 50+ person race on PC sims. . .

Note: the order of my comments are in response to the ones you struck out.

and we forgot to mention that when u enter in the pit in forza 3 where is the pit crew it feel like ur tires are been changed by invisibel ppl not like in gt5 u see them runing araund the car

 

[NOS Waster]

and we forgot to mention that when u enter in the pit in forza 3 where is the pit crew it feel like ur tires are been changed by invisibel ppl not like in gt5 u see them runing araund the car

Does the pit crew exist for standard cars? I don't know because i haven't changed tires in a standard. In NASCAR you have the pit crew runnin around but i think in road races you have 4 crew men to change the tires quickly.

 

[machschnel]

And that means what? I do not care if it is 2222 the 69 Charger is just an example of one of many cars in the game and most of them are encouraged to be made into AWD and they are totally unrealistic. The driving aids as well come on all these cars without spending one extra credit for them where-as in reality it would cost a small fortune to equip any of these older cars with these things.

It means, if you look at modern cars, the vast majority have aids, contrary to what you said.

And how is AWD unrealistic? If you had the money you could convert any car to AWD. My father has even owned an AWD motocycle. It's quite realistic actually. The fact they dominate is also realistic. Watch a Time Attack or similar (where AWD are actually allowed) and you see the AWD whitewash in Forza is art imitating life. I know AWD conversions aren't common, but neither are ECU's for cars from 1944....................

What's not realistic is a game limiting your options ala Gran Turismo.

 

[niky]

There's realism and then there's realism.

You can add EFI to pre-EFI cars. In fact, such kits are quite common in the United States, for the benefit of classic car owners. Such conversions are rather cheap.

For a more involved install, you can also convert a classic to a standalone ECU. This is rather expensive, though... the ECU itself would cost over a thousand dollars, and custom tuning will cost a few hundred over that if you need dyno time... but what's a thousand dollars or two in a video game?

There are also proportioning valves available to control brake bias, and modules available to adjust traction control and stability control systems, but I haven't heard about any mass market applications of the TCS-intercept modules. They are possible, but not something the general public can get easily... not like EFI and ignition conversions for older cars.

You can convert almost anything to AWD and swap any engine into anything, but such swaps are involved and sometimes require major surgery. In some cases, you will have to ditch much of the original suspension and go for custom-machined parts. While it's possible to do this "on the cheap", "on the cheap" often requires owning your own machine shop, doing the CAD for it and designing your own parts from scratch. And for many modern cars, also dumping the entire electronics system for a standalone because none of the computers will talk to each other (the snobs!).

So, possible, yes. Practical or cheap, no. And if you allow anything and everything that is possible, pretty soon your online grid will be filled with be-winged AWD Fiat Cinquecentos (the old ones) with twin-turbo Hartley V8s and custom-made gearboxes. Which would probably get very boring, after a while.

But then again... it would be awesome to see something like that in real life...

 

[Pierced Lead]

Looks to me like the people in the Oceania region are favoring FM3 over GT5. Just an observation.

Maybe they aren't happy with the 3 Aussie cars being standard

 

[NOS Waster]

Looks to me like the people in the Oceania region are favoring FM3 over GT5. Just an observation.

Maybe they aren't happy with the 3 Aussie cars being standard

I wouldn't be either if I was an Aussie.
Then again, I have a different sim that has an amazing V8SC.
For Aussie street cars, i would definitely hop on Forza, though.

 

[Akira AC]

On the other hand, GT5 had twice the time a Forza game has and it doesn't seem more polished than that, quite the opposite

I disagree to this,Forza games uses exactly the same technique as GT does, recycle old assets,if you check the car list in FM3 all cars there are brought over from previous FM games,new inclusions to FM3 like Ferrari California and the Lambo Reventon looks superior to a Pagani Zonda(it can be check,its almost the same quality as FM2),apart from that the amount of content is limited to just 12 scenarios,the real inclusion from FM2 were cockpits and +50 cars,the rest of the content is deliver as DLC,something that I really dislike mainly because at the time cars like the GT-R,the lambo gallardo,and 2007 pagani zondas were just in time to be included in the game,and as a marketing stunt MS offer them as DLC,cars that should be in the game initially.

In the scenario and features department they don't add nothing but improvements over things already done like the livery editor and the online storefront,games that are sequels needs to introduce more stuff,GT5 include more stuff to the series(D/N changes,weather,track editor,16 cars on race and damage),and what FM series has done is reduce its content or redistribute it as DLC to make the game more profitable.

Apart from that the amount of tracks in FM3 is limited to just 12,they said its 18 but sadly 3 scenarios are just variations of the same thing(camino viejo,ladera test track and iberian circuit are the same huge track),while Gran Turismo shows a random track generator that crates infinite track layouts over the same scenario,apart from this the quality of the events in GT is superior over FM3 events,endurance races in FM3 are not real endurance races,they take at best 4 hrs and GT5 can handle a whole endurance race.

In my personal opinion I think that people that like to actually race plays Gran Turismo while players that like to paint cars plays Forza,FM3 was really a huge step back from FM2,the introduction of a rewind function make the game easier and boring because it fall under a routine,a lot of people will argue that rewind is a good feature,but it is there to fix the mistakes that AI makes,AI often rams into you and you have to use rewind function to make the AI rethink again and brake or get aside you,Rewind function is good when is limited but when is not it almost takes the whole gameplay concept of racing away,FM could be a really good racing game if they developers put more effort to it and try to innovate,have 100 layers more to paint your car is not a new feature while a track editor is.

that is pretty much what I think of Forza,another game on the series has to shown something good,not the continuation of the same linear events by adding more content,GT5 does it right by makingthe driving experience more desirable,I expend most time driving in time trials in GT than painting my car in Forza3,but that is just me so games adjust to the kind of person that you are,an artist(well GT5 offers photomode for that)uses FM3,and a player uses GT5,so is all down on which kind of person you are.

 

[Kaaosherra]

Number 1: Better driving feel. Enough said.

 

[Luminis]

I disagree to this,Forza games uses exactly the same technique as GT does, recycle old assets

Granted, Forza does recycle old assets as well. There are two major differences, though:
1) The visual differences are not nearly as noticible as they are in GT5.
2) All the old assets have all features available, they're not limited in any way.

Regarding the development time:
Even if Forza recycles stuff from even Forza 1, that game was released in 2005. Gran Turismo 4 was released in 2004, GT3 in 2001, even. Now, even if we consider only GT4, that gives PD still more total time than T10. Add to that that the recycling isn't as noticble in Forza, and that's why I'm considering T10 to have better time management.

As far as the individual development time goes, GT5 had more than Forza 3, recycling or not. As I said earlier, Forza is on a two year development cycle. GT5 had at least twice that much time. And as far as QA and polish of the single game goes, think Forza 3 is far ahead in that regard. It dramatically shows when playing GT Life. It feels as if nobody at PD ever bothered to actually play through GT Life, for example.

Regarding the features:
GT5 may have added more features compared to the previous game than FM3 did. However, if you look at the feature list, they're both not actually short. it's just that, in my opnion, GT5 had to close the gap that has opened itself since GT4. Forza released three games during that time, thus, if you look at what the franchises added in the same period of time, I can't see how Forza would be lacking in that regard.
If a franchise has to close such a gap with just one game, it just has to add a huge load of features in that game, compared to its predecessor.

Granted, neither game is where I, personally, want it to be yet. And both games could improve themselves a lot if they just looked at each other and copied the good stuff the other game brings to the table.
Thing is, this is something that I kinda think T10 is more willing to do then PD. Maybe due to the fact that it's easier to copy the good stoff from the competition, but I honestly don't care.

Now, in 2010, both games added a lot to the console sim racing genre since 2004. Both games have a different focus right now, but I'm quite certain we'll see a step forward by the end of next year.
We'll have another debate about Froza 4 and GT5 and I for one am looking forward to how those games will compare. A patched and updated GT5 versus a fresh Forza.

 

[Tenacious D]

Correction: iRacing is the true racing simulator.

Correction: iRacing is the true expensive as HELL racing simulator.

If I could afford it, I'm still not sure I'd play it. I know that iRacing is awesome sauce to thousands, but GT5 still offers a bunch of goodness that iR can only dream of.

In my personal opinion I think that people that like to actually race plays Gran Turismo while players that like to paint cars plays Forza

Well, tougers and drifters also flock to Forza by the thousands.

I have to admit that I'm one of the car painters that spent way too much time in the paint shop. But heck, to me it's the one really good feature of the game, and the related elements like the Storefront are sweet icing on top. I had to apologize to the guys here when they invited me to race in the early days of Forza 3 because I spent almost all my time painting cars. Kind of like now in GT5, I spend all my time grinding and collecting Standards. At least for a while, till I get glutted, but that may take a thousand cars.

People who spend all their time drifting isn't necessarily a bad thing. Neither are the car artists who crank out awesome liveries by the dozen. If not for F3's/360's horrible file handling and photo ruining, I'd have been playing it all through 2010. Instead, the bugs once again got to me, but this one I only played for two months. Others still can't get enough of it or T10's sometimes questionable DLC. Some prefer GT's feel, others Forza. Different strokes and all that.

I still have the opinion that those who insist these games need to "evolve"... just what the heck does that even mean in a racing game? Looking over the entire genre, Gran Turismo was the only real evolution that really mattered. At first I thought it was a weird game which featured a bunch of little known... imported sports cars?? WHY sports cars? But then I played it, and my eyes were opened.

Forza isn't an evolution, not really, it's a copy with a few interesting twists. But the one intriguing development which it does bring to the table is the well designed Livery Editor. Eutechnyx ups the ante with the concept I've been wanting to see for years of the "sideless" car painter, where there is no top, front, right, left etc, with a cutoff boundary. The trainable Drivatar in FM1 was the other great development I was particularly impressed with.

There is some evolution going on in Gran Turismo with the Course Maker, though it really needs to mature into something like ModNation Racer's Track Creator. But just about everything else in racing games is taking something from real life and adding it in as a gameplay element. We're discussing an Event Maker in another thread. It's a great idea, but it's really nothing more than allowing us to design the particulars of a racing event, something humans do in the real world every year. Photo Mode? Great idea, but this is known as photography in real life. Still Gran Turismo tends to deliver the most things I want to see in a way that is greater than the sum of the parts. There really is nothing quite like a GT game.

Anyway, the time for talking evolution or revolution is about over. Now it's up to these game companies to start taking the motorsport world and seeing how much of it they can recreate in a way that's enjoyable.

 

[PzR Slim]

In my personal opinion I think that people that like to actually race plays Gran Turismo while players that like to paint cars plays Forza

That is totally incorrect, I've been part of a site since the release of FM2 and pretty much all we did in Forza was race. Running three comps a week for the majority of that time. The only reason more people paint in Forza is because they can

If GT5 had a livery editor as good as the one in Forza there would be just as many people painting.

For me GT5 has a better handling model and there are more subtle differences bewtween individual cars. Then there is the obvious stuff like weather and day/night driving, it's just a shame that it's limited to a handful of tracks. I fully expected GT5 to beat FM3 in every department. I'm sorry to say it hasn't.

 

[Obli]

Does any game do skidmarks and tyre smoke as well as GT5? I was amazed by the smoke at the nurburgring. Some of the smoke swirls are partially lit by sunshine coming through the trees.

Anyway, I think there are a LOT of things GT5 has over Forza 3, and vice versa. The most important aspect GT5 nails is driving feel / physics (but not collision physics!).

 

[chris139ryan]

gt5 has a lot more cars than fm3 thats the only big difference

 

[PzR Slim]

Does any game do skidmarks and tyre smoke as well as GT5? I was amazed by the smoke at the nurburgring. Some of the smoke swirls are partially lit by sunshine coming through the trees.

Anyway, I think there are a LOT of things GT5 has over Forza 3, and vice versa. The most important aspect GT5 nails is driving feel / physics (but not collision physics!).

The smoke looks awesome in GT5, just a shame everything turns to ratcrap when a car passes through it. Interestingly I was watching a GT5 advert last night and there were quite a few instances where there were cars passing through smoke and I saw none of the pixelation problems. Now that would be all well and good if it wasn't for the 'Actual Gameplay Footage' at the bottom of the screen. I wonder when the screen captures for the adverts was done and whether an earlier build didn't have these pixelation problems but things were changed at the last minute that resulted in the pixelation.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

There really is nothing quite like a GT game.

Prior to the release of GT5 I would have agreed with that statement wholeheartedly.

While GT5 has great unrealized potential, thats about all it has.

Its a mere shell, of the game it should have been after almost 6 yrs.

IMO GT5 is practically indefensible on nearly all sides.

As I said earlier in this thread, PD actually backed up to make FM3 look better than it is.

GT5 should have easily cleaned Forza's clock, but instead PD punts on first and goal.

 

[ScouserInExile]

For me, the big difference is all about the "feel" of the game. Both in terms of the front end and the actual driving. There's just something more solid about GT, somehow. I like both games, I think they're great in their own rights, I just prefer GT - even though I couldn't give a concrete reason why. (though I may be a little biased, I used to work for Sony, I have my name in the credits of GT2 and a mate of mine was one of the project managers on GT3 and GT4)

 

[Spagetti69]

Forza is the most complete package and the most finished.
GT is ok. I really thought I would have been blown away but at 79% completion rate already I feel it is lacking somewhat. I'm interested to see what PD include in this upcoming "large" update.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I disagree to this,Forza games uses exactly the same technique as GT does, recycle old assets,if you check the car list in FM3 all cars there are brought over from previous FM games,new inclusions to FM3 like Ferrari California and the Lambo Reventon looks superior to a Pagani Zonda(it can be check,its almost the same quality as FM2)

Actually, every car was built from the ground up for FM3, they were not just imported from previous Forza titles.

http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/pitpass1.htm

The Forza 3 treasure trove looks something like this: More than 400 cars, with each vehicle model re-built from the ground up with 10x the number of details compared to its predecessor Forza 2. Plus, detailed cockpit views for all 400+ cars, each with working gauges (including race cars and digital multi-function displays)."

In the scenario and features department they don't add nothing but improvements over things already done like the livery editor and the online storefront

Over Forza 2, Forza 3 added 360 calculations per second physics (most on a console), they added roll over, cockpits, underbody, 150 more cars, point to point races, drift scoring, drag strip, auto-tuning option, auto-brake option, rewind option as well as new tracks off of the top of my head. So yeah, they do MUCH more than just improve existing features. One has to wonder if you have bothered to even play Forza?

games that are sequels needs to introduce more stuff,GT5 include more stuff to the series(D/N changes,weather,track editor,16 cars on race and damage),

They are adding what racing games have already had for years.

and what FM series has done is reduce its content or redistribute it as DLC to make the game more profitable.

Just not true, sorry.

Apart from that the amount of tracks in FM3 is limited to just 12,they said its 18 but sadly 3 scenarios are just variations of the same thing(camino viejo,ladera test track and iberian circuit are the same huge track),while Gran Turismo shows a random track generator that crates infinite track layouts over the same scenario

Sadly, the track creator is extremely limited and random and is actually rather mundane. FM3, not including the random track editor in GT5, has more tracks than GT5.

apart from this the quality of the events in GT is superior over FM3 events

The events in FM3 are substantially better than the events in GT5.

endurance races in FM3 are not real endurance races,they take at best 4 hrs and GT5 can handle a whole endurance race.

This one you do have correct. I do like the endurance options in GT5. Too bad the bspec is so hosed, that it makes them almost useless unless you babysit your system for 24 hours. GT5 just doesn't feel like a natural driving experience right now though, it needs some work. It's amazing when I am in cockpit view in FM3, sometimes I forget I am playing a game....seems like I am head first in a real race, with my heart racing. With some patches and work, hopefully I will get that feeling with GT5 down the road.

In my personal opinion I think that people that like to actually race plays Gran Turismo while players that like to paint cars plays Forza

Not even close. Racing is first and foremost in Forza 3. That is at the heart and passion of us sim racers. We love racing in GT and Forza because of the racing.

FM3 was really a huge step back from FM2,the introduction of a rewind function make the game easier and boring because it fall under a routine,a lot of people will argue that rewind is a good feature,but it is there to fix the mistakes that AI makes,AI often rams into you and you have to use rewind function to make the AI rethink again and brake or get aside you,Rewind function is good when is limited but when is not it almost takes the whole gameplay concept of racing away,

Luckily, that is just an option for the casual players. Those of us hardcore players don't bother with the feature. We are glad it's there for those new people who want to use it though. FM3 is a huge step forward from FM2.

FM could be a really good racing game if they developers put more effort to it and try to innovate,have 100 layers more to paint your car is not a new feature while a track editor is.

FM is actually one of the best racers this gen on console, if not the best. As for track editor vs. livery editor, it's a matter of opinion. I would rather have a livery editor than the track creator we have in GT5 (due to how limited the tracked randomizer is). It it was a true track editor, like say what you see in Modnation, then I would be all over the editor improvements.

GT5 does it right by makingthe driving experience more desirable,I expend most time driving in time trials in GT than painting my car in Forza3,but that is just me so games adjust to the kind of person that you are,an artist(well GT5 offers photomode for that)uses FM3,and a player uses GT5,so is all down on which kind of person you are.

I race about 99.9% of the time in Forza 3, as I do in GT5. The track creator and livery editor have not taken away from the core importance of these games..the racing.

 

[speedthrill]

Not yet it hasn't:

FM3: 3.73m

GT5: 2.90m

But I expect GT5 will probably overtake it in a month or two.

Not that sales matter. Wii Fit sold 15m and it's still crap.

5.5 million in 12 days has been sold since the release of GT5.