What does GT5 have over FM3?

[HBR-Roadhog]

True the assists exist in GT as well and the only ones I really take issue with is auto brake and rewind.

Ideally I think the game should make you purchase these other assists for a car that does not have them but maybe that is just me.

The AWD is over the top though.

 

[paskowitz]

Forza 3 is a better video game, GT5 is a better driving sim. There is a difference. But more importantly, its how the driving experience in GT5 comes together. I get these moments, when I forget that I am playing a game. I get fooled into thinking that what is happening is real life. FM3 has never stimulated those moments. Whether it is due to the graphics or the physics or both, I have never been fooled into thinking that what I am doing is real.

 

[Luminis]

Ture the assists exist in GT as well and the only ones I really take issue with is auto brake and rewind.

Ideally I think the game should make you purchase these other assists for a car that does not have them but maybe that is just me.

The AWD is over the top though.

Thing is, both games are basically doing the same thing. Unrealistic driving aids, modern driving aids on old cars for free, unrealistic cars.

Why would you attack only one game for it, though? Kinda biased, don't you think?

 

[Pierced Lead]

Above all GT5's physics feel much better than FM3's.

 

[Earth]

Forza 3 is a better video game, GT5 is a better driving sim. There is a difference. But more importantly, its how the driving experience in GT5 comes together. I get these moments, when I forget that I am playing a game. I get fooled into thinking that what is happening is real life. FM3 has never stimulated those moments. Whether it is due to the graphics or the physics or both, I have never been fooled into thinking that what I am doing is real.

So someone else has experienced this

While driving the McLaren F1 at a drying ring I felt as though I was actually there... I had never felt this in a game ever... it made me overlook the flaws in the gameplay. Kaz has nailed the backbone (physics & realism) he just needs to upgrade online (Remove 20 sec time limit to finish plz!)

 

[NOS Waster]

My curveball from a couple pages back: iRacing
3-way discussion?

GT5:
Amazing eye candy
a very nice career progression (can be enhanced through DLC)
An adequate online mode

Forza:
Good graphics (but the reflections are a tad much
A nice linear career, but there aren't special event types
TBH, i think Forza has the better sounds (more consistent good sounds)

iRacing:
The best racing sim physics. Period
A tiered license progression system.
An adequate way to match people by iRating
Safety Rating (though it seems to be useless with FastTrack now)
Most realistic damage in any sim. Period
Advanced mechanical failures
The tracks are laser scanned and continuously updated
The cars are laser scanned to have accurate aerodynamics modelling

While those are pros of iRacing, here are some cons.
The matchmaking system in iRacing reeks of Forza's hopper system
You have to pay 3 dollars every time you want to host your own custom session
Relatively expensive compared to the others, BUT is way cheaper than trying to go racing for real.
FastTrack lets a lot of unsafe drivers in fast cars by timetrialing like crazy
Damage, Tires, and Suspension modelling STILL need work
Sound needs work (this will be addressed in JAN)
Lack of cars, but Spec racing allows for even fields
Graphics are less than adequate by today's standards.
Aero modelling needs work on some cars.
Some other things that i cannot be bothered to mention.

Long story short:
EVERY sim, whether it be for console or PC, will have its shortcomings. There is no way to make the perfect sim.

My preference of the console sims? Gran Turismo 5

Why? It gives me an amazing feeling being able to drive cars that i would dream of even seeing IRL. Also, cars having somewhat accurate physics adds to the experience. Also, the customizable lobbies and lounges online adds to the Online mode a lot instead of just being thrown in with random people. Also, the game is $US60 and doesn't cost anything after that except for optional DLC (if it comes out). The online is free. I don't have to pay $60 a year (XBL) or $90 a year (iRacing) in order to keep enjoying GT5 online.

There's my reason. I know i went off topic with the iRacing comment, but it was to make a point that any sim will have its strong points and weak points. IMO, neither game is better than the other, but i prefer GT5 because i am a GT fan, it is the least expensive venture of the 3, and contains some of the most beautiful recreations of cars i have seen.

I own Forza 3 and an xBox. I can vouch that it is an amazingly fun game. They nailed the career mode. It is absolutely fantastic! I just haven't decided to play it because I have either been playing iRacing or GT5 and haven't bothered to renew my XBL Gold.

tl:dr

All racing sims have strong points and weak points. GT5 and Forza are both great games and IMO neither one is better than the other.

 

[aQuarius26]

FM3 feels like an Arcade game to me, more "cartoonish" (like NFS Series games), and those types of racing games just don't appeal to me anymore.

 

[Tenacious D]

Then, I will say that even if I find that GT5 much better recreates the "driving feel" than Forza 3, I actually have the feeling that much more things are going on under the hood of Forza 3's physics engine.

It's hard to explain, but basically, every time I lose control in Forza 3, I fully understand what happened and therefore which mistake I made, such as bad driving line, hitting the apex too soon or too late, braking too late, re-accelerating too violently, and so forth. But when I lose control in GT5, many times I'm just wondering what happened and therefore am left guessing what was wrong in my driving, like it's not my fault but the fault of the car.

I don't know, maybe it's just a lack of feedback (although driving with DFP on a 1080p projector and a very good sound system). But the intuition I have is that GT5 is just like a big giant extremely well done mystification. Just like, in fact, everything is fake but is so well done than it's amazing. And for Forza 3, it's somewhat the opposite, my intuition is that everything is computed applying as much physical rules as possible, but the end result is not as satisfying, as the physical model lacks some details or uses some incorrect values.

Regardless, regarding the pure driving feeling, I think that Forza 3 has a great feeling of grip but lacks body simulation and/or has some extremely simple suspension modeling. Whereas in GT5, it feels like there is a minimal tire simulation but a very well done representation of body behavior which lead to a much better "driving feeling".

I need to click on Scaff's link in a bit. I wanted to say that my feelings about GT5 vs F3 are pretty much opposite. Much of that may be due to the driver views in Gran Turismo that since GT4 have been about perfect for me. Forza seems stuck in the 90s with its view choices, and if you can't see your drive that well, everything is going to suffer.

However, there is something about Forza that doesn't quite feel kosher. In the previous two games, just about every car oversteered which wasn't right at all. F3 corrects much of this, but the essence of their car feel remains. I do like the grippier tires, but I need that because I just can't connect with those cars like I can in other games, especially GT4, Prologue and GT5. When I lose control in both games, I usually know what I did wrong, though in GT5 I agree that sometimes the car will misbehave and I'm not sure why. But I will have to say that in the few times I lost control of my car in real life, most of them I had no clue why. There are times that a car gathers and responds to energy and inertia in ways that you have to experience a few times to really understand, and I'd rather not re-experience some of those...

I think the one thing that indicates a more basic, user friendly physics engine is the easier drifting in Forza games. Not having a proper clutch, drifters do need some help, but it seems that GT5 has it about right. Another is that one or two posters have pointed out that you can do some completely wrong tunings to Forza cars, like raising the suspension all the way with no lack of performance, or having one really long gear giving almost identical lap times. But having said all that, both games are now more similar to real life than ever, so it's more a matter of taste and preference. You can pick and chose elements which you prefer in either and run with them. I prefer to run with Gran Turismo.

Game wise, Forza 3 pretty much smokes GT5 in most areas, since you actually have a ton of events to do in F3. It does offer more tracks and a decent variety, though T10 did milk a few courses way too much. PD dropped the ball in mixing up the courses well in GT5, which would have been easy to do, as they have the tracks to play with, and A-Spec is way too skimpy. I don't care for either game's online system, but I'd give the nod to GT5, and with updates I think the differences will just explode. Currently, Forza does offer leaderboards which GT5 doesn't, but I have a caveat on that. And of course you have to pay for online play in Forza, which I don't think is worth the price of admission.

Modifications, hands down, GT5 drops it again, with missing featues such as brake upgrades (WTH??), transmission tuning, etc, as well as not having savable mods and tunes, whereas in Forza, you can have as many as you like and NAME them. And I can't say enough about Forza's wonderful livery editor, in which you can create any race car you can imagine or copy. Any. Well, from their list of cars, which is very nice, but supercar heavy. They do have Porsche though, and more Ferraris. Car models are mostly good in Forza, and for those cars ported from FM1, the differences aren't too great. Edit: forgot damage modeling, which in Forza is pretty darn good. About half realistic or less, but the way it's done is pretty satisfying.

I think in every other respect, Forza blows. Have a nice racing wheel? Unless it's a Fanatec, forget it. Try uploading a pic without using a capture card. The Forza website even ruins the image. Online is a sandbox nightmare. Every car performs much better with an AWD drivetrain swap, and it seems that every month, there's a new physics exploit T10 has to patch, resulting in a leaderboard wipe. File handling in F3 is atrocious, if you have very many pics, replays or decals. And I prefer a car list which is bigger and not supercar heavy.

Forza 3 is overall a better game with WAY more to do, but I just can't eat the bugs necessary to enjoy it, and by golly, cutting me out from using my Logitech because of their proprietary crap is the biggest fail about MS and the 360.

And then there's this:

Forza 3 is a better video game, GT5 is a better driving sim. There is a difference. But more importantly, its how the driving experience in GT5 comes together. I get these moments, when I forget that I am playing a game. I get fooled into thinking that what is happening is real life. FM3 has never stimulated those moments. Whether it is due to the graphics or the physics or both, I have never been fooled into thinking that what I am doing is real.

 

[prymet1me]

@NOS Waster don't get me raging about XBL fees, why or why Microsoft must you do this. I had live since the old brick and I think this may be my last year with it. (sorry for the tangent)

 

[GR1P_0082R]

I don't really want to get into a Forza vs. GT discussion, however, I'll say this: Personally, I found race cars, such as GT2 or LMP cars a lot harder to control in Forza than I do in Gran Turismo.

Taming a 1000+HP, 850kg Minolta Toyota? Peace of cake in GT5.
Controling a way less powefull R15 TDI? Quite a challenge in Forza.
At least if both are driven wothout any driving assists (except for ABS = 1 for GT5).

Furthermore, I, personally, found most race cars to be pretty oversteery rather than understeery.

But still, I think that GT5 simulates the actual driving better. Forza is just not as far behind as some people make it out to be. Or would it like to be, I don't know.


Well, show me a '69 Camaro that comes with TCS, ASM, ABS and skit recovery force stock then, if accuracy is that important.

Or any other car with skit recovery force.

If you turn all the assist on, both games will nanny you through a race in an unrealistic way.

Speaking of unrealistic stuff... I guess there are as many X1s running around real tracks as there are AWD Vipers.

In real life this is called YAW Control, or AYC, it's very common in most of the newer sports cars today. I know for a fact almost all newer Nissans and Infinities have this across the board. Maybe not the lower end Maxima and Altima, Cube or whatever other mom cars they have in their line up. But the Z line all has this equipped, along with "I think" EVERY car in the Infinity line up.

. . .and to add to it, it's amazing. Me and my buddy Keyon did some testing at the track in his 2003 G35, with the YAW control on it's almost impossible to lose control of the car, no matter how hard you try, this is also on dry surface, wet is a completely different ball game.

 

[NOS Waster]

@NOS Waster don't get me raging about XBL fees, why or why Microsoft must you do this. I had live since the old brick and I think this may be my last year with it. (sorry for the tangent)

sry. Had to use it as a point of comparison.
BUT if I'm going to pay to play a racing sim online, then I'm going to pay 50% more than forza for online keep iRacing.

 

[ValiantThorr]

Native support for 900 degree steering wheel and H-gate shifter and clutch?

Does FM3 support the Fanatec clutch and 6 speed shifter?

Of Course, the clutch is also in game adjustible (sensitive)

 

[ValiantThorr]

Don't you just hate the generic exhaust sound just before a race starts on FM3. It just doesn't look as good as GT5. Driving is easy on FM3 whilst on GT5 it can be hard, very hard.... which is very realistic as i'm no racing driver. What I like about FM3, which most people appreciate is the custom paint designs on the cars, the car marketplace for trading, buying cars. Mostly the ability to rewind, it just helps the less gifted drivers out there, saving all that time restarting a race.

The Generic exhaust sound is there, because you are not using a clutch. When you are using a clutch you will have control over these rev's for Drag etc

 

[m0j0NL]

Yes, wow. The fact people are even comparing these two games is a joke.

Yeah why would people compare the #1 race games for 2 separate consoles.. beats me

 

[Luminis]

Yeah why would people compare the #1 race games for 2 separate consoles.. beats me

Because Gran Turismo and Forza are pretty close in terms of the games' concept.

And, well, the Xbox vs. PS war carries over into a Forza vs. Gran Turismo war for some people, appearently.

 

[B Quiet N Drive]

I have pretty extensive experience with both games... I don't have time to read the blunt of these responses so excuse me if I'm posting something you've already read...

To me, GT5 wins in the following area's... (in no particular order)

1. Photo Mode - Although I wish all cars were premium, the ones that are look flat out amazing in GT5's photo mode. I really enjoy taking pictures in this game.

2. Nascar! - FM3 has some generic stock cars, but getting the right's to some actual Sprint Cup cars is pretty awesome for a big Nascar fan like me.

3. Wheel - With FM3, the MS Wheel and the very expensive Fanatec are really your only options for a decent FF wheel. Logitech makes a some great wheels for the PS3. I love my driving force GT

4. F1/Open Wheel cars - Not sure why Forza hasn't cracked this egg yet but to me it's a huge deal breaker when picking one game over the other.

5. "Real" Content - GT5 has Nascar, Sebatian Vettel, Real Ferrari F1 cars, all "name brand" stuff that Forza seems to lack (other than their LeMans cars).

6. 16 players online - Forza may have an amazing livery editor, but leaving the capability to load all that custom content has restricted them to still having only 8 people online. You can't beat 16 people racing Karts, it's way better than 8 cars with "cool" paint jobs.

7. Day/Night/Weather Changes - It may only be on a few tracks, but it's better than nothing.

8. History - GT has been in my life for, seems like forever. Unfortunately if they release another game with a bunch of crappy looking "standard" (sub-standard) cars, that history won't be enough to keep me around. Despite all the wins above, Forza has a good thing going.

 

[m0j0NL]

Because Gran Turismo and Forza are pretty close in terms of the games' concept.

And, well, the Xbox vs. PS war carries over into a Forza vs. Gran Turismo war for some people, appearently.

Sorry forgot

/sarcasm on

And

/sarcasm off

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Wow, I'm really impressed.
10 pages and this thread hasn't melted down into a flaming Troll a thon.

A lot of good points have been offered about both games and I can identify with most of them.

IMO, had PD built off the strengths of its previous games and continued them in GT5, FM3 would not look near as good as it does now.

GT4 outdated as it was when FM3 was released, still held alot of preferential sway on those strengths.
Even though FM3 was a much improved next gen offering that actually emulated more of the GT way with a deeper game having more content of events and tracks.

Consequently, I think the field has been left wide open for T-10 and FM4 to further close the gap, if not surpass GT as the console racing sim King.

I could have never imagined saying that prior to the release of GT5.
Neither could I have imagined PD actually backing up to make it possible.

Microsoft and T-10 do seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot at the most unopportune times, so chances are they won't be able to capitilize on their good fortune.
At least PD better hope so.

 

[Luminis]

Wow, I'm really impressed.
10 pages and this thread hasn't melted down into a flaming Troll a thon.

A lot of good points have been offered about both games and I can identify with most of them.

IMO, had PD built off the strengths of its previous games and continued them in GT5, FM3 would not look near as good as it does now.

GT4 outdated as it was when FM3 was released, still held alot of preferential sway on those strengths.
Even though FM3 was a much improved next gen offering that actually emulated more of the GT way with a deeper game having more content of events and tracks.

Consequently, I think the field has been left wide open for T-10 and FM4 to further close the gap, if not surpass GT as the console racing sim King.

I could have never imagined saying that prior to the release of GT5.
Neither could I have imagined PD actually backing up to make it possible.

Microsoft and T-10 do seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot at the most unopportune times, so chances are they won't be able to capitilize on their good fortune.
At least PD better hope so.

Agreed 100%. If it wasn't for the hardware limittations of the Xbox360, I'd be looking forward to Forza 4 even more. Either way, it's going to get interesting at the end of next year. If I can bring myself to stop playing Diablo III for a while, that is

Still, I'd love to see what T10 could do if they had the same possibilities PD has. In terms of hardware, time and budget...

 

[ValiantThorr]

Wow, I'm really impressed.
10 pages and this thread hasn't melted down into a flaming Troll a thon.

A lot of good points have been offered about both games and I can identify with most of them.

IMO, had PD built off the strengths of its previous games and continued them in GT5, FM3 would not look near as good as it does now.

GT4 outdated as it was when FM3 was released, still held alot of preferential sway on those strengths.
Even though FM3 was a much improved next gen offering that actually emulated more of the GT way with a deeper game having more content of events and tracks.

Consequently, I think the field has been left wide open for T-10 and FM4 to further close the gap, if not surpass GT as the console racing sim King.

I could have never imagined saying that prior to the release of GT5.
Neither could I have imagined PD actually backing up to make it possible.

Microsoft and T-10 do seem to find a way to shoot themselves in the foot at the most unopportune times, so chances are they won't be able to capitilize on their good fortune.
At least PD better hope so.

For forza 3 (1 year old). To beable to even be compared to GT5 and still beat it in certain points tells me that FM4 is really going to dominate the race sim war without a doubt. as we speak they are gathering info from the community and opposition in order to acheive this.

 

[wajdi1977]

Fms3 is the best racing game for Xbox360 owners and GT5 is the same for PS3 owners,fortunately I'm a PS3 owner !end of the story:tup:

 

[Luminis]

For forza 3 (1 year old). To beable to even be compared to GT5 and still beat it in certain points tells me that FM4 is really going to dominate the race sim war without a doubt. as we speak they are gathering info from the community and opposition in order to acheive this.

While you're somewaht right, I wouldn't count on Forza 4 being that good. First and foremost, because I doubt they can squeeze stuff like 16 cars our of the Xbox. Maybe 12, at best, but, well, we'll see.

 

[ValiantThorr]

Agreed 100%. If it wasn't for the hardware limittations of the Xbox360, I'd be looking forward to Forza 4 even more. Either way, it's going to get interesting at the end of next year. If I can bring myself to stop playing Diablo III for a while, that is

Still, I'd love to see what T10 could do if they had the same possibilities PD has. In terms of hardware, time and budget...

The Hardware in terms of graphics and processing power is not really a factor they are virtually equal in this regard. And yeah if they had the same time and budget would be a different story I suppose.

 

[ValiantThorr]

While you're somewaht right, I wouldn't count on Forza 4 being that good. First and foremost, because I doubt they can squeeze stuff like 16 cars our of the Xbox. Maybe 12, at best, but, well, we'll see.

Well they could if they dropped the frame rate like in GT5

 

[prymet1me]

While you're somewaht right, I wouldn't count on Forza 4 being that good. First and foremost, because I doubt they can squeeze stuff like 16 cars our of the Xbox. Maybe 12, at best, but, well, we'll see.

Hopefully they fully utilize the system to find a great balance of gameplay and graphics to avoid cutting and pasting cars from FM3 if FM4 cars look better. Also I hope for more tire smoke without compromises to edges of the cars and shadows, also hoping to keep the frame rate steady and avoid screen tearing.

 

[Luminis]

The Hardware in terms of graphics and processing power is not really a factor they are virtually equal in this regard. And yeah if they had the same time and budget would be a different story I suppose.

Well, there is no real benchmark that works equally well for both consoles, so the only thing that one could go by is the FLOPS rating that Sony and Microsoft gave out, which are probably not very precise. Judging by this, the PS3 is quite a bit more powerful than the Xbox360.

What's worrying me the most, though, is that T10 stated that they had to reduce the numbers of cars on track from 12 to eight during development, due to the Xbox' limitations.
On the other hand, two years of optimizing and polishing can do a lot to a graphics engine and a physics engine as well.

With GT back in the ring, T10 has to bring their a-game, though. Which can only be good for those of us that own both consoles

Hopefully they fully utilize the system to find a great balance of gameplay and graphics to avoid cutting and pasting cars from FM3 if FM4 cars look better. Also I hope for more tire smoke without compromises to edges of the cars and shadows, also hoping to keep the frame rate steady and avoid screen tearing.

If they can get the showroom models to work during racing and have them look exactly what they look in the dealership, I'd be fine with copyoasting the cars from FM3. It's not like they're from a last gen game

 

[Cheshyrkat]

For me its the driving mechanics. Forza feels shallow and detached by comparison. Cars seem to lack weight and almost feel like they are hovering above the road giving little feedback. It bests GT5 in just about every other aspect and is a far more consistent game but because I couldnt 'connect' to the driving I put it down rather quickly and dont go back often. I look forward to the next Forza and hope they can match what GT5 does with the driving mechanics. Same goes for GT6. I hope PD is really listening and can capture what makes Forza great. Competition is great and should make both games better.

 

[ValiantThorr]

Hopefully they fully utilize the system to find a great balance of gameplay and graphics to avoid cutting and pasting cars from FM3 if FM4 cars look better. Also I hope for more tire smoke without compromises to edges of the cars and shadows, also hoping to keep the frame rate steady and avoid screen tearing.

+1
I would prefer a steady frame rate. Otherwise my 1080p tele is a being wasted. Cant stand the thought of reducing to 720p or 1080i in game!

 

[ValiantThorr]

For me its the driving mechanics. Forza feels shallow and detached by comparison. Cars seem to lack weight and almost feel like they are hovering above the road giving little feedback. It bests GT5 in just about every other aspect and is a far more consistent game but because I couldnt 'connect' to the driving I put it down rather quickly and dont go back often. I look forward to the next Forza and hope they can match what GT5 does with the driving mechanics. Same goes for GT6. I hope PD is really listening and can capture what makes Forza great. Competition is great and should make both games better.

You know forza is the only game that makes my fanatec turbo s Fans work overtime due to FFB effects Ah maybe hardware? next in comparison would be Raceon and rfactor GT 5 FFB is good though.

 

[Senna52]

I have played both quite extensively and for me I love them both but for different reasons. I love the livery editing and things of that sort in Forza. I like the driving but it just doesn't feel as real to me. I have done my fair bit of driving so its not as if I haven't felt he real thing. I still play both though. I feel like the graphics for both games are outstanding but I give GT5 the edge because the tracks and environments feel much better.

The 'Ring is a great example for many reasons. Physics wise this is where GT excels and where I feel Forza missed the mark. Forza cars feel overly planted and grippy to me. Producing oversteer is difficult even in monstrously powered cars. GT just feels, right to me. Also, this is where the steering assist in Forza really really annoys me. I believe a lot of it is due to making the game more accessible to those new to driving "sims". Another way of showing this is that real world tracks have been made wider in FM3 to allow more room (I am surprised this hasn't been mentioned).

I still love and play both games, but for a real driving experience, I pick GT5 because I feel like I am actually driving when I sit in my cockpit and play. I pick Forza when I want to play a great fully fleshed out game. Forza excels by having more events and things of that nature. In the end I keep coming back to GT5 though for the reasons mentioned. I feel like I am actually driving and thats what it is all about.