What don't you like about GTS? From the beta

[lancia delta hf]

Imagine if, instead of a Grand Prix weekend, every team was given a set amount of time to run solo on the track. Then, all these laps would be laid over one another for broadcast time. Exciting, right? That's roughly what an all-ghost-all-the-time eSports event would be. It wouldn't be racing: it'd just be simultaneous hot-lapping.

Think of some of the best close real-world races you've watched. They almost certainly involved a constant give-and-take between two cars, where one line offered a benefit for driver A through turn X, but a disadvantage through turn Y.

The current system certainly has its flaws, but I imagine it'll work pretty well for packs of drivers at the pointy end of DR and SR. Big, officially-sanctioned events could have live marshals to keep on eye on any obvious griefing too: that's how it's done in most other games IIRC.

Basically like WRC3 was online.

 

[The Chosen One]

At the moment in the beta we only have players at class C.

Haven't gotten to play the beta, but I assume this ranking system starts everyone in class C?

If so...
I can only imagine what kind of madness it would be when Day 1 happens and everyone is starting in class C, from pro drivers to drunk drivers, creating a nearly inescapable elo hell.

I'd rather have "trial" online races/license tests/whatever to sort out where a driver belongs before they first hop into an online match. (If this already exists, that's fine as I didn't know.)

 

[JulesDennis]

Haven't gotten to play the beta, but I assume this ranking system starts everyone in class C?

If so...
I can only imagine what kind of madness it would be when Day 1 happens and everyone is starting in class C, from pro drivers to drunk drivers, creating a nearly inescapable elo hell.

I'd rather have "trial" online races/license tests/whatever to sort out where a driver belongs before they first hop into an online match. (If this already exists, that's fine as I didn't know.)

They start with an E rating mate.But either way it will happen in Day 1 since everyone should start with an E rating.

 

[azrilnazli]

In iRacing, if you ram other people , both will be received SR incidents points, so its 4x per contact with total 17x inc limit.

And if they hit on purpose, iracing accept replay files and will punish the offenders by banning them from official races.

 

[TA462]

I don't like the fact I have to race with people that clearly just want to hit people. I think once my rating increases I won't have to race with those clowns anymore.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

It might be random luck, but I don't like that every car I've gotten since the first day has been a Group 3 car, and I've still yet to get one of the most competitive ones.

 

[z06fun]

I don't like that time trial mode seems to forget my best lap each time I stop to tweek the setup etc. This means it can not calculate sector deltas from best lap after I restart to make changes etc.

I don't like that most of the front engine RWD cars have massive understeer with their default tunning setup.

 

[bokimoto]

i don't like hot air balloons at Willow Springs

well, .... one.
occasionally. that would be fine.

 

[polizei]

After getting the C7R i can see why people want seat adjustment/POV adjustment. They dash cowl is too high on courses with lots of elevation changes. Driving blind a lot


I also don't like the guys waving YELLOW flags around the ring, why are they waving caution flags?!

 

[sems4arsenal]

Wonder if we can clean up the OP a bit and add all the suggestions in a list? @diesel97

I remember we did that for the DC sub forum and it worked a treat.

 

[Dylan]

I also don't like the guys waving YELLOW flags around the ring, why are they waving caution flags?!

They're track marshals letting you know about incident/crashes ahead.

 

[polizei]

They're track marshals letting you know about incident/crashes ahead.

SMH, yes thanks for repeating the obvious. There's no crash or caution ahead when I'm the only car on track. They wave yellow flags at certain corners. Maybe that's just what the do at the ring?

 

[ryzno]

Call me a noob, I don't like that there is no driving line.

 

[Imari]

Full-time ghosting for all cars should be part of FIA/eSports events. For regular online events, it should be optional.

As in no car can interact with any other at any time?

In what sense is that motorsport? You might as well just run it rally style, one car at a time.

Then how are we going to penalize dirty drivers or help polite drivers avoid becoming collateral victims? It's obvious that the penalty system hasn't really helped punish drivers properly, it can be exploited or avoided quite easily.

So fix the penalty system instead of giving up while we're still in beta. Yeesh. Frankly, if iRacing can get it working so can Polyphony. It might take them a while, but they'll probably get there.

As far as being a polite driver, I think sometimes people don't realise how much you can do to avoid yourself becoming a victim. Particularly if you're on track with a bunch of wanna-be Sennas, you can gain a lot by driving very safe and very defensive. Let them take themselves out and enjoy the easy places.

I can only imagine what kind of madness it would be when Day 1 happens and everyone is starting in class C, from pro drivers to drunk drivers, creating a nearly inescapable elo hell.

Same deal as iRacing. The smart people will qualify low and start at the back. They'll cruise around keeping out of everyone's way, gaining SR. You don't have to be fast to gain SR, you just have to be safe.

Everyone else will be gung ho to win the amateur series that doesn't matter at all, and in doing so will keep themselves locked in E.

Call me a noob, I don't like that there is no driving line.

You don't like the green triangles? I thought they were a good replacement that gives largely the same information without being so intrusive on the pretty graphics. They're clean but visible and you still get turn in, apex and track out. GT already gives you braking point with it's gear suggester.

 

[Matej]

As in no car can interact with any other at any time?

Yes, though you could allow for ghost drafting or penalties for passing through other ghost.

In what sense is that motorsport?

In sense that provides equal opportunities and fair competition for all participants. As I mentioned earlier, this needs to be prioritized if the competition tends to invite wide range of players and promote involvement in motorsport beyond the gaming itself.

You might as well just run it rally style, one car at a time.

Earlier I posted this:

I'm under impression that hot-lapping simultaneously with several other drivers while the entire event is being broadcasted live would add far more tension to drivers than sole hot-lapping in peace. That way full-time ghost driving wouldn't really feel like a time trial or traditional race, more like something in-between.

So fix the penalty system instead of giving up while we're still in beta. Yeesh. Frankly, if iRacing can get it working so can Polyphony. It might take them a while, but they'll probably get there.

As far as being a polite driver, I think sometimes people don't realise how much you can do to avoid yourself becoming a victim. Particularly if you're on track with a bunch of wanna-be Sennas, you can gain a lot by driving very safe and very defensive. Let them take themselves out and enjoy the easy places.

Full-time ghosting is not a product of giving up, but a reasonable solution to provide fair and equal racing without drawbacks. The penalty system can't be fixed that easily, but I definitely believe it will see improvements soon.

In case that never happens, we know where to look.

Safe and reserved driving works, but not always. It actually depends on what happens to other drivers and where exactly you all drive. From my experience with online racing, you may be able to avoid hazards, but you won't win too often that way.

...

I'm more worried about the track marshals, they tend to be imperceptible. It still seems easier to keep your eyes on the road and check for collisions that way. Maybe if they program a flag to appear on the screen whenever there is a collision nearby. This solution was present in older games and was really convenient.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes, though you could allow for ghost drafting or penalties for passing through other ghost.

Currently, penalties exist for car contact in the form of lowered SR. The suggestion is creating penalties for those that use the ghosting — which, in this example, is permanent — to their advantage in terms of placement.

That's now adding excessive complication to a system that's suggested to make things simpler. It doesn't particularly solve any issues, it just shifts them: people would still have to use proper race craft to get around other cars, and over time ways to manipulate the system would be uncovered.

Say I'm heading into the final corner of a race with a car right on my tail. I can intentionally brake early to force him to ghost through me, then maintain the win thanks to whatever penalty he incurred.

I could've done the same thing without ghosting, but the chances of one or both of us ending up in the wall or facing the wrong way might've stopped me from brake-checking. In essence, this permanent-ghost-but-with-penalties approach isn't fixing anything.

In sense that provides equal opportunities and fair competition for all participants. As I mentioned earlier, this needs to be prioritized if the competition tends to invite wide range of players and promote involvement in motorsport beyond the gaming itself.

Motorsport isn't fair. Multi-class racing is a great example of this, where getting caught in slow traffic can shake things up.

The success in the eSports arena lies in appealing to the viewer, not the players. The current system isn't perfect, but it's doing a decent job so far in terms of getting the fastest, cleanest racers into rooms together, which is where the big events will be drawing from in terms of drivers.

I'm under impression that hot-lapping simultaneously with several other drivers while the entire event is being broadcasted live would add far more tension to drivers than sole hot-lapping in peace. That way full-time ghost driving wouldn't really feel like a time trial or traditional race, more like something in-between.

Yeah, but the broadcasting is what's adding the tension. I think it's safe to say most of us would feel more pressure if we knew thousands of people were watching us, regardless of what we were doing!

It doesn't change what's happening on the track though: it's still simultaneous hot-lapping. Up in the higher reaches of the leaderboards — where eSports events will be pulling their competitors from — you'll be watching a procession of nearly-identical ghosts unless someone makes a mistake (which the aliens out there are far less likely to do). Depending on what sort of penalties the perma-ghost approach would hand out, for anything from a slight pass-through of the one corner of the car to a full-on one, you might even have people taking less chances jockeying for position.

I see the argument, I do, but I don't believe it's a better approach than the current one. It's not perfect, and could definitely use refinement, which I hope happens because of this beta. Yeah, sometimes big pile-ups happen, especially at tracks like Tokyo. Though in that case, I'd argue that's Polyphony's fault for designing such a poor circuit for racing.

 

[cutmeamango]

After today's first Willow race, I'm still not convinced ghosting is a protection/behaviour system. But it got me thinking.

I got launched to hell by a charging Mustang at the building crest (Budweiser Balcony), threw me down the hill and it took me a long time to get back to track (costing me 4 SR* even though I drove the other 3 laps without incident).
You'd think at that speed, I was at ~92km/h so I imagine he was at 105+ since he hit me and still went off-track, he'd have ghosted past me into the sand cliff, but nope.

Yet I see it in situations that aren't really needed like at the main straight.

I also got hit by a car driving the wrong way at Tokyo (he spun and was having a hard time turning the car around in those two lanes).
Which for a system that is supposedly about protection, I imagine that would be the easiest scenario to flag and ghost right? They even have a "wrong way" warning.

Given that you'll likely need to go through the license/campaign, I'd frankly just do away with it and have full damage from the beginning. And I'd add to that the requirement of bronze/silver/gold at Track Training section for Sport mode with the car category you are racing.
I imagine that would fix 90% of the problems you see racing.

---

As for the SR rating, it seems the maximum point is tied to lap count (with Nurb being 7 for 1 lap)?
So far it seems fair to me, I got first Willow, but the next two races I went perfectly clean and bounced back completely.

Say I'm heading into the final corner of a race with a car right on my tail. I can intentionally brake early to force him to ghost through me, then maintain the win thanks to whatever penalty he incurred.

Since they can do driving lines with braking zones and your distance to other cars, they could know you are braking where you shouldn't.

I see the argument, I do, but I don't believe it's a better approach than the current one. It's not perfect, and could definitely use refinement, which I hope happens because of this beta. Yeah, sometimes big pile-ups happen, especially at tracks like Tokyo. Though in that case, I'd argue that's Polyphony's fault for designing such a poor circuit for racing.

Tokyo is great fun, if there is a full 20km or so configuration I'll already crown it as the Grey Hell.

 

[Imari]

Yes, though you could allow for ghost drafting or penalties for passing through other ghost.

You could, but at that point you're just the same as penalties for actual contact.

In sense that provides equal opportunities and fair competition for all participants. As I mentioned earlier, this needs to be prioritized if the competition tends to invite wide range of players and promote involvement in motorsport beyond the gaming itself.

"Full contact" motorsport also provides equal opportunities and fair competition to all. You just don't seem to like the form that the competition takes.

Earlier I posted this:

It would be different hot lapping in a group and live. But probably not that much once you got used to it. Run qualifying in iRacing. It's basically the same thing. There's some tension because you have to perform right there and then, but that's about it.

Full-time ghosting is not a product of giving up, but a reasonable solution to provide fair and equal racing without drawbacks. The penalty system can't be fixed that easily, but I definitely believe it will see improvements soon.

There are a bunch of drawbacks. The fact that it ruins the idea of broadcasting something that looks very similar to real racing. The visibility problems from bumper and cockpit while you're going through another car. The fact that if you do introduce contact penalties, it's just as abusable as full contact racing.

The penalty system can work. Play iRacing. It works. It's not perfect, but neither is motor racing in the real world. Sometimes people do stupid stuff, and part of motor racing is keeping yourself safe through that stuff. It doesn't work all the time, but on average you will finish higher by driving safe.

Safe and reserved driving works, but not always. It actually depends on what happens to other drivers and where exactly you all drive. From my experience with online racing, you may be able to avoid hazards, but you won't win too often that way.

See, but this is where you HAVE to start giving up on the idea that anything less than a win is a failure. You are at all times racing with twenty other people. One can win. All other things being equal, you have at best a 5% chance of winning. If you want to win all the time you're going to be disappointed.

On the other hand, if you're in it for the long term and are trying to maximise your finishing positions so that you build driver rating, then driving safe absolutely works. If you can avoid being taken out in two races out of ten, then you've just improved your place from last to at least ahead of all the people that crashed out. It's less trivial than you'd think ifyou're trying to build driver rating.

Seriously, people cannot go into this measuring themselves by wins. Even world champions are lucky if they win a third of the races in a season. In 2010 Sebastian Vettel won the WDC with 5 race wins out of 19. (That was admittedly a close fought year that went down to the wire, but mechanical dominance shouldn't exist in GTS.)

Get over this idea of winning, and start thinking about how you can make sure that you're almost always in, say, the top 5. Wins will come naturally if you're driving safe and clean.

I'm more worried about the track marshals, they tend to be imperceptible.

Compared to the mess of other stuff they have on the HUD, I actually like how they handled the marshals. It's not strictly necessary information, but it is useful. There's a skill there for people who take five minutes to learn the marshal positions and flick their eyes towards them every time past. Just like real racing. Situational awareness is important.

Frankly, I get the impression that you have your own idea of what you want a competition with cars to be, and it's wholly unlike real world racing. In a game that markets itself as a FIA affiliated motorsport simulator, real world racing should be the priority. Maybe they can add additional modes like you're suggesting, but Sport mode should be as close to real motorsport as they can get it without driving people away.

 

[diesel97]

You could, but at that point you're just the same as penalties for actual contact.



"Full contact" motorsport also provides equal opportunities and fair competition to all. You just don't seem to like the form that the competition takes.



It would be different hot lapping in a group and live. But probably not that much once you got used to it. Run qualifying in iRacing. It's basically the same thing. There's some tension because you have to perform right there and then, but that's about it.



There are a bunch of drawbacks. The fact that it ruins the idea of broadcasting something that looks very similar to real racing. The visibility problems from bumper and cockpit while you're going through another car. The fact that if you do introduce contact penalties, it's just as abusable as full contact racing.

The penalty system can work. Play iRacing. It works. It's not perfect, but neither is motor racing in the real world. Sometimes people do stupid stuff, and part of motor racing is keeping yourself safe through that stuff. It doesn't work all the time, but on average you will finish higher by driving safe.



See, but this is where you HAVE to start giving up on the idea that anything less than a win is a failure. You are at all times racing with twenty other people. One can win. All other things being equal, you have at best a 5% chance of winning. If you want to win all the time you're going to be disappointed.

On the other hand, if you're in it for the long term and are trying to maximise your finishing positions so that you build driver rating, then driving safe absolutely works. If you can avoid being taken out in two races out of ten, then you've just improved your place from last to at least ahead of all the people that crashed out. It's less trivial than you'd think ifyou're trying to build driver rating.

Seriously, people cannot go into this measuring themselves by wins. Even world champions are lucky if they win a third of the races in a season. In 2010 Sebastian Vettel won the WDC with 5 race wins out of 19. (That was admittedly a close fought year that went down to the wire, but mechanical dominance shouldn't exist in GTS.)

Get over this idea of winning, and start thinking about how you can make sure that you're almost always in, say, the top 5. Wins will come naturally if you're driving safe and clean.



Compared to the mess of other stuff they have on the HUD, I actually like how they handled the marshals. It's not strictly necessary information, but it is useful. There's a skill there for people who take five minutes to learn the marshal positions and flick their eyes towards them every time past. Just like real racing. Situational awareness is important.

Frankly, I get the impression that you have your own idea of what you want a competition with cars to be, and it's wholly unlike real world racing. In a game that markets itself as a FIA affiliated motorsport simulator, real world racing should be the priority. Maybe they can add additional modes like you're suggesting, but Sport mode should be as close to real motorsport as they can get it without driving people away.

Why must you be RUDE too everyone?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why must you be RUDE too everyone?

Sorry, don't see that at all.

 

[Imari]

Why must you be RUDE too everyone?

Uh, what? It's a conversation, and that means expressing differing opinions.

If you think any specific parts of that are rude then point them out. If I agree I'll attempt to avoid doing so in the future, and if I disagree I'll simply ignore you as overly sensitive. But just pointing at a wall of text and saying "how RUDE!" doesn't help anyone.

 

[praiano63]

The downforce don´t have almost any influence over top speed.
Tested with a FT1 ( or any other) group 3 at the end of the straight before braking.
Full downforce = 280 kmh
Minimum downforce = 283 kmh.
It seems a ridiculously small diff to me. I´m not a specialist in real life but i think that it must have a bigger difference. This way , there is no doubt over the choice.Full front and rear flap just used as a tool to balance the car.

 

[Imari]

The downforce don´t have almost any influence over top speed.
Tested with a FT1 ( or any other) group 3 at the end of the straight before braking.
Full downforce = 280 kmh
Minimum downforce = 283 kmh.
It seems a ridiculously small diff to me. I´m not a specialist in real life but i think that it must have a bigger difference. This way , there is no doubt over the choice.Full front and rear flap just used as a tool to balance the car.

It was similar to that in GT5P if I recall. The speed difference was so minimal that the only reason you'd ever go less than full was just for balance.

It's a shame they still haven't got the aero sorted out. I'd have thought even a rudimentary lookup table would suffice to do better.

 

[polizei]

Yes, the ghosting.
I've read theories regarding it occurring due to a significant speed difference between two cars at the time of contact.
In the latest race shown, I'm not convinced.

I think I see what PD are aiming for.
And I don't claim to have a better solution.
But during that race it played a major role on car track position, and the race result itself was clearly defined due to ghosting.

I'm a little torn, but I'm not happy about thet.


Edit.
Sorry, I got my threads confused.
I'm referring to this clip.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...and-screenshots.331389/page-232#post-11768838

I can't tell how ghosting works. I've seen cars ghost that are side by side going into a corner and then had 2 cars spin out in front of me, one ghosted the other we hit nose to nose(thanks guy...). I don't think there will ever be a perfect system. The developers can't possibly foresee every single situation and create a plan for it. They can pick some common variables and work within those constraints. I'm sure the system will be refined with updates as more and more data is collected.

Also in regards to SR and DR, the sample size is relatively miniscule for individual drivers. I only have maybe 10 races with live drivers online so I don't even worry about those ratings as I consider myself a noob at this point. Once you have 500 races or a good amount of miles you can start to take those ratings more seriously. Actually I think ratings by mile/KM would be better than laps/segments/etc.

 

[JCH8r]

It might be random luck, but I don't like that every car I've gotten since the first day has been a Group 3 car, and I've still yet to get one of the most competitive ones.

I was just the opposite. I didn't get any N300 cars (whatever that is) until yesterday when I finally took the EVO out for the first time. Got the Audi TT. Maybe you need to use that class of car to get it as a reward...?

 

[Ledbetter]

Regarding the type of car awarded for daily bonus, I had 6 each of Groups 3 & 4, and only two N300s. Today I did a time trial with the N300s and got an N300 as the bonus. I think that you get whichever class you were driving for the required mileage.

The track guys wave yellow flags when I or others have gone off course. I don't see this as a problem.

SR factors badly need adjustment.

 

[cjr3559]

Regarding the type of car awarded for daily bonus, I had 6 each of Groups 3 & 4, and only two N300s. Today I did a time trial with the N300s and got an N300 as the bonus. I think that you get whichever class you were driving for the required mileage.

Not confirmed. I tried this in hopes of getting another N300 but I got a Group 4 instead. I've done the daily drive since a few days after the beta release and I just started to get duplicates the last couple days.

 

[Matej]

@SlipZtrEm I agree "full-time ghosting + penalties" system isn't perfect either, and that players would eventually learn how to exploit it. While it is better than the current system, it still can't beat full-time ghosting alone. Still, assuming I have to add more realism in the racing itself, I would opt for full-time ghosting + penalties over the current system because when both exploited, mine causes less damage to involved players than the current system.

Up in the higher reaches of the leaderboards — where eSports events will be pulling their competitors from — you'll be watching a procession of nearly-identical ghosts unless someone makes a mistake (which the aliens out there are far less likely to do).

Do we know for sure that only high-ranked players will take part in live events? If there is a strong evidence suggesting so, I would not mind having a collision system and relying on the growth of the current system. With reliable drivers around, the risk of having a grid of mixed quality drivers would be very small.

The success in the eSports arena lies in appealing to the viewer, not the players.

Agree, overly fair and clean racing could repel certain audience because racing wouldn't be so tense and unpredictable anymore. Personally, I believe that clean and fast driving itself is already tense enough if drivers' skills are matched, but I also know that possible collisions and other disturbances that may or may not happen create more excitement.

Given that you'll likely need to go through the license/campaign, I'd frankly just do away with it and have full damage from the beginning. And I'd add to that the requirement of bronze/silver/gold at Track Training section for Sport mode with the car category you are racing.

I really hope the school mode we're going to get will encourage drivers to drive properly. You can't stop dirty driving, but you can do measures to reduce it.

You could, but at that point you're just the same as penalties for actual contact.

Not quite, the damage done to involved or innocent players would be far less. To put it precisely, it does not fix the problem, but it improves it.

"Full contact" motorsport also provides equal opportunities and fair competition to all. You just don't seem to like the form that the competition takes.

Are you referring to motorsport in general or motorsport in GTS?

Depending on what domain of motorsport we specifically discuss, it may and may not be fair. But it certainly is more fair than average/random online race, mostly because of the lack of risks and obligations you get in real thing, so it encourages people to try doing something they would never dare to do in real life. Therefore, in a video game you have to pay more attention to fair play so that people can get the satisfaction they want and enjoy what they won't be able to experience otherwise.

There are a bunch of drawbacks. The fact that it ruins the idea of broadcasting something that looks very similar to real racing. The visibility problems from bumper and cockpit while you're going through another car. The fact that if you do introduce contact penalties, it's just as abusable as full contact racing.

It's more similar to real racing than what you get to see in average open lobby. Visibility problems can be fixed, Enthusia on PS2 would automatically turn the ghost car off upon you making a contact with the car. It would then re-appear once there is no more contact. And it isn't as abusable as full contact racing, as I mentioned above, the damage involved players take is far less than during full contact racing we have now.

The penalty system can work. Play iRacing.

GT Sport has larger audience than iRacing, more players are aware of its existence, and it's more oriented towards casual players. I understand what are you trying to say, but approach to penalty system has to be different in GTS. Not better or worse, but different.

See, but this is where you HAVE to start giving up on the idea that anything less than a win is a failure. You are at all times racing with twenty other people. One can win. All other things being equal, you have at best a 5% chance of winning. If you want to win all the time you're going to be disappointed.

On the other hand, if you're in it for the long term and are trying to maximise your finishing positions so that you build driver rating, then driving safe absolutely works. If you can avoid being taken out in two races out of ten, then you've just improved your place from last to at least ahead of all the people that crashed out. It's less trivial than you'd think ifyou're trying to build driver rating.

Seriously, people cannot go into this measuring themselves by wins. Even world champions are lucky if they win a third of the races in a season. In 2010 Sebastian Vettel won the WDC with 5 race wins out of 19. (That was admittedly a close fought year that went down to the wire, but mechanical dominance shouldn't exist in GTS.)

Get over this idea of winning, and start thinking about how you can make sure that you're almost always in, say, the top 5. Wins will come naturally if you're driving safe and clean.

When did I say I monitor everything through winning? If this's what you have concluded from my post, you have misunderstood it. 👍

What I was trying to say is that in average open lobby safe and reserved drivers will often get the short end of the stick. That's a rule of thumb if you race against fast, but impolite drivers. If you drive carefully, you won't be able to reach higher positions, and if you try to break through cleanly, you'll face consequences for your kindness. That leads to frustration because you know you could beat them, but the race is just too dirty to allow you to, and the system doesn't punishes them properly.

Personally, I don't care about winning at all. As long as I'm taking part in a clean race and I'm having fun, I'm happy, I don't care about ranking and stuff. It's always more enjoyable to be an average in terms of skills and speed.

Compared to the mess of other stuff they have on the HUD, I actually like how they handled the marshals. It's not strictly necessary information, but it is useful. There's a skill there for people who take five minutes to learn the marshal positions and flick their eyes towards them every time past. Just like real racing. Situational awareness is important.

I can agree on that since I like challenge, but older or casual-oriented players may not. Hopefully they add an option to satisfy all players.

Frankly, I get the impression that you have your own idea of what you want a competition with cars to be, and it's wholly unlike real world racing. In a game that markets itself as a FIA affiliated motorsport simulator, real world racing should be the priority. Maybe they can add additional modes like you're suggesting, but Sport mode should be as close to real motorsport as they can get it without driving people away.

Wholly unlike real racing is what you can see right now, my suggestion pay attention to both realism and fairness. I admit compromises do exist, but as I said above, if we manage to get only clean drivers in important events, I'll be more than happy to change my opinion and support what ever they have in mind on the current system.

And yes, the more options, the better. 👍

 

[Imari]

Are you referring to motorsport in general or motorsport in GTS?

Depending on what domain of motorsport we specifically discuss, it may and may not be fair. But it certainly is more fair than average/random online race, mostly because of the lack of risks and obligations you get in real thing, so it encourages people to try doing something they would never dare to do in real life. Therefore, in a video game you have to pay more attention to fair play so that people can get the satisfaction they want and enjoy what they won't be able to experience otherwise.

What exactly are you meaning by fair?

Assuming that the BoP balancing is good, everyone starts off equal and has equal chances for success. From there it's a competition to see who can outmanoeuvre the other drivers to the win. Don't mistake degenerate strategies like ramming without penalty for unfair ones. Everyone has the same chance to perform them, it's just not particularly fun or entertaining when the race is decided by who can shunt the other first.

It's more similar to real racing than what you get to see in average open lobby. Visibility problems can be fixed, Enthusia on PS2 would automatically turn the ghost car off upon you making a contact with the car. It would then re-appear once there is no more contact. And it isn't as abusable as full contact racing, as I mentioned above, the damage involved players take is far less than during full contact racing we have now.

If you're comparing to open lobbies in GT6, perhaps, but GT6 isn't exactly a great example of an online system. It's less similar than iRacing, which is essentially what GTS intends to be.

And visibility problems for broadcast cannot be fixed. A ghost car race cannot be made to look like a real race for the viewers.

GT Sport has larger audience than iRacing, more players are aware of its existence, and it's more oriented towards casual players. I understand what are you trying to say, but approach to penalty system has to be different in GTS. Not better or worse, but different.

Has to be different. Why? "Because Gran Turismo" isn't good enough. Be specific.

When did I say I monitor everything through winning? If this's what you have concluded from my post, you have misunderstood it. 👍

What I was trying to say is that in average open lobby safe and reserved drivers will often get the short end of the stick. That's a rule of thumb if you race against fast, but impolite drivers. If you drive carefully, you won't be able to reach higher positions, and if you try to break through cleanly, you'll face consequences for your kindness. That leads to frustration because you know you could beat them, but the race is just too dirty to allow you to, and the system doesn't punishes them properly.

But are you talking about your experiences in GT6 here? It's not the same thing.

I can agree on that since I like challenge, but older or casual-oriented players may not. Hopefully they add an option to satisfy all players.

It's not about liking a challenge or not. Racing is competition. Competition is a challenge, kind of by definition. Designing a good competition means giving people lots of ways to differentiate themselves by skill.

If people don't like a challenge, they shouldn't be racing Sport mode.

Wholly unlike real racing is what you can see right now, my suggestion pay attention to both realism and fairness.

Ghosting cars is realism, eh? Pull the other one, it has bells on.

Paying attention to realism and fairness would be attempting to create a system that better encourages clean driving while not violating the laws of physics. Like a safety rating system or something.

I admit compromises do exist, but as I said above, if we manage to get only clean drivers in important events, I'll be more than happy to change my opinion and support what ever they have in mind on the current system.

Go and play iRacing. Just do it. Get out of rookie and up to C or B and tell me how not clean the drivers are. For that matter, watch some Pro series racing on Youtube. Your problem doesn't exist, and you just don't know it because you haven't played the one example of it that already is available.

In a game with SR that actually matters and a functional damage system crashers are confined to the lower ranks by simple statistics. Yes, sometimes you'll get taken out but that happens in real racing too. SR isn't the problem, apart from the numbers needing tweaking and damage actually needing to be implemented. Having tracks that actually have some run off so that people can take avoid accidents would be nice too, something like Tokyo is always going to be a nightmare regardless of your penalty system. Ask anyone who races Bathurst on iRacing.

But you're throwing in the towel at the first hint of difficulty (we're still in beta for crying out loud), when there's years of evidence that a properly tuned SR system actually works pretty well. Try it and get back to me, because until then you're just jumping at shadows.

 

[Matej]

What exactly are you meaning by fair?

Assuming that the BoP balancing is good, everyone starts off equal and has equal chances for success. From there it's a competition to see who can outmanoeuvre the other drivers to the win. Don't mistake degenerate strategies like ramming without penalty for unfair ones. Everyone has the same chance to perform them, it's just not particularly fun or entertaining when the race is decided by who can shunt the other first.

Unfair in terms of preventing other players from enjoying the race or driving dirty and then getting away with it.

If you're comparing to open lobbies in GT6, perhaps, but GT6 isn't exactly a great example of an online system. It's less similar than iRacing, which is essentially what GTS intends to be.

And visibility problems for broadcast cannot be fixed. A ghost car race cannot be made to look like a real race for the viewers.

I can compare it to any other driving game with open lobbies and the result would be the same.

In replay mode you can always make all cars fully visible, for viewers a ghost doesn't need to disappear when making a contact.

Has to be different. Why? "Because Gran Turismo" isn't good enough. Be specific.

I already mentioned what the reasons are. GTS is more open to audience and more accessible, which means it can attract far wider range of players. Wide range of players means more risks and more details you need to think about.

But are you talking about your experiences in GT6 here? It's not the same thing.

I haven't played GT6, I'm talking about my experience with other driving games. I can't even recall how many times I wished for a ghost option when racing with random players. It's a necessity in open lobbies as an option.

It's not about liking a challenge or not. Racing is competition. Competition is a challenge, kind of by definition. Designing a good competition means giving people lots of ways to differentiate themselves by skill.

If people don't like a challenge, they shouldn't be racing Sport mode.

The point is that track marshals are not easily perceptible and that could present a problem to drivers who prefer simpler solutions, like a flag appearing on the screen. It is necessary to have an option for other players as well, since in situations where players will have to pay attention to flags to avoid penalties, spotting track marshals in current format could present a problem for some players.