What exactly is so shameful about using Racing Soft tires?

[Stotty]

It sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself. What good would it do anyone to drive a 300 hp car on CS when they're going to be racing LMP's on RS? It will do nothing. In fact it will probably hinder them. Don't assume and belittle others because you don't understand the competitive aspect of RS racing. You're not going to win by "mashing throttles". You need to be better than everyone else. That means apexes, timing, positioning, and placing the car right on the limit. Sounds just like every other tire.

The cars might be a bit easier to control, but the race is no less fierce. RS racing is it's own thing, it's not the junior league. No one needs to be enlightened by lower grip tires.

I don't need to convince myself of anything.

My GTPlanet divisional placing, WRS results over the past 2-3 years and on-line racing reputation amongst the long standing and fasest drivers on here and other GT forums should be sufficient to demonstrate to both myself and others that I know I'm talking about

Of course you still need to be a decent driver to win with race softs... I've never said anything to the contrary.

What I have said is it takes far less skill to drive a car on race softs than it does on a more sensible tyre choice. And if you can learn to drive a 300-400bhp car competitively on sports hards, you'll be faster when you go back to race softs. I don't believe the opposite is true.

I don't remember if you were one arguing for realism or not, but this certainly is not realistic at all. Obviously I've never had the opportunity to drive an Enzo, but I have seen a couple on the track and they are exceptionally smooth, and go like purpose built race cars. If I do recall that's basically what Ferrari designed the Enzo to be.

No, it's not realistic for an Enzo to have >900bhp or weigh 1000kg, but my point was that if it's possible to drive an Enzo in that state of tune round the 'Ring in close to 7 minutes on sports hard tyres, why the hell would anyone want to go another 5 levels up in tyre grip level... thereby taking the vast majority of the challenge away from actually controlling the car?

Anyhow, I've said my piece... I'll wonder off and stick my oar in somewhere else now

 

[JLawrence]

No, it's not realistic for an Enzo to have >900bhp or weigh 1000kg, but my point was that if it's possible to drive an Enzo in that state of tune round the 'Ring in close to 7 minutes on sports hard tyres, why the hell would anyone want to go another 5 levels up in tyre grip level... thereby taking the vast majority of the challenge away from actually controlling the car?

Anyhow, I've said my piece... I'll wonder off and stick my oar in somewhere else now

No no, I completely agree that that's one hell of a challenge, and props to you if and when you manage to do it. I was merely taking note of the contradiction between this and your previous arguments. But, for me, my goal would be something like 6'15 round the Ring, same car, same set, with RS tires. (I dunno if that's remotely possible, I hardly ever drive the Nurburgring) Kinda like I'd rather be going for a 1:09 on Deep Forest with a RM Camaro on RS tires than a 1:20 with the comforts.

 

[OwensRacing]

So this argument needs settled on track. Period.

I will start a list of those interested in testing:

Copy and paste add your name if you are willing to be in a race/time trial to prove or disprove the soft tire racers are less skilled then hard tire racers.

Tire Comp:
OwensRacing

 

[JLawrence]

I'll try it.

 

[watermelon punch]

Doesn't this just mean that you aren't driving through the corner at the limit of the tire grip whatever the compound is (ie. too slow)? To quote Ross Bentley: "If the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow."

This I think is true!
Granted, I don't OFTEN put racing soft on cars, just because of the expense, and not having a need to... But whether I'm on comfort, sports, or racing tires, hard medium or soft... I never feel like any car is on rails.
I could just as easily take whatever car and wipe out on whatever tires I put it on if I'm not careful!

Maybe if you have a serious mechanical advantage over your competition, you can drive very slow, and therefore think it feels like "rails"... But that's only because you're just trying to beat slower cars, and you can drive slow!

It is still just a video game, and adapting to harder tires is a matter of time and practice like every other skill in the game.
...
To my mind you either "get" driving at racing speeds and car control or you don't. If you get it you can adapt to any vehicle with any tire. If you don't get it, you will be slow with any tire or any car.

I think this is true. I haven't had the game long & I'm pretty new to racing games in general, and I'm slow on any tire comparative to someone who's quite experienced and practiced. I can't imagine that I'd have any advantage in a race where everyone's using the same tires, no matter what type. I'm not suddenly going to have an edge if the tire restriction is different.

on RH's where the tires would not warm up until they were basically worn out.

I get this a lot on hard tires of any type, on a variety of cars. Basically it's like after several laps, there comes one or 2 laps where the hard tires are fantastic, and the next lap, suddenly they're crap.
And in some cases, I never even get the good point, it goes from so-so straight to crap.
This is a problem with the game. It's not just slicks either. I've noticed it in comparing sports hard & sports soft as well.

So to my mind if you're going to shun racing soft tires for this reason, you ought to shun all soft tires.

It's why I veer toward mediums. They're more predictable than hards, but less expensive than softs.

No one needs to be enlightened by lower grip tires.

LOL. Good one. That's what I was thinking. I'm thinking - I may be a newbie. But duh, I'm not clueless. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you have to take more care when you're on 'lesser' tires! DOH.

Once you find the fast route around a track on lesser tires, you will improve your times on other tires.

Begging your pardon, but this is not tire specific.
In MY experience, once you find a fast route around a track in a SLOWER CAR, your times will improve in faster ones. With less thought & effort.
I know this to be true.
It doesn't really matter what tires. So long as you're in a car that you CAN'T go very fast in, you will be forced to learn the most efficient route, if you want to improve your lap times. So then when you get in a fast car, you're more likely to more naturally stick to what you've already learned about the track.

So I'm not saying you're wrong, chuyler1. I'm just saying it's not really about the tires.

So this argument needs settled on track. Period.

I will start a list of those interested in testing:

Copy and paste add your name if you are willing to be in a race/time trial to prove or disprove the soft tire racers are less skilled then hard tire racers.

Tire Comp:
OwensRacing

I would volunteer as a "less skilled" control subject. LOL
But I'm not sure I understand the experiment parameters. heh.

Are we trying to prove or disprove that less skilled drivers will have less gap with the more skilled drivers on soft tires, and a bigger gap on harder ones?

In other words, would the idea be to prove whether or not soft tires would give newbies an edge against experienced gt5 players? And that on hard tires, the gap between hard core players and newbies would be way more?

Because that's what I feel people are arguing. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[OwensRacing]

According to this thread the winner/faster drivers on Hards should be faster on softs. Because they posses more skill.

Just something to have numbers to debate with.


Tire comp:
OwensRacing
JLawrence
watermelonpunch

 

[springerman]

Seriously does it matter ,Theres always going to be someone who can go faster with one arm tied behind their back or whilst eating a banana, sports tires ,race tires fit what you want it doesn't matter .
People will still find a reason to over inflate their ego`s and tell you the only reason you won or they lost is blah blah blah, its not like its even a real car, hell if it was half the people here wouldn't even reach the pedals,
So why not do what makes you happy and say i fit what i want

 

[OwensRacing]

Seriously does it matter ,Theres always going to be someone who can go faster with one arm tied behind their back or whilst eating a banana, sports tires ,race tires fit what you want it doesn't matter .
People will still find a reason to over inflate their ego`s and tell you the only reason you won or they lost is blah blah blah, its not like its even a real car, hell if it was half the people here wouldn't even reach the pedals,
So why not do what makes you happy and say i fit what i want

To you, obviously not. To others it's an interesting debate. One in which would be fun to discuss with some numbers. Besides its more racing and competition. Which in my book us great!

 

[chuyler1]

It all boils down to grip. More grip gives you less wheel spin, virtually none in most road cars. It also effectively straightens out parts of tracks. Flugpatz, Schwedenkreuz, and Klostertal on the 'ring can be taken almost flat out in road cars under 300hp when you have racing tires installed. Sports tires require more finesse with the brake and gas. On both tires, you still have to run a clean line to stay on the track, but when less grip is available its not just about turning the wheel, its about proper entry speed and managing tire slip angles.

 

[ocd1920]

Hey, it's a game. I have used RS tires, won, then used RH, won, then SS, and finished 3rd, then went back and found where I made my mistakes, and finished 2nd. Now as far as seasonals with big purses, I will use RS tires to make the money and then will go back and reduce traction with lesser tires for the fun of it. But, if I am grinding I will use the stickiest tires available in the interest of time.

 

[watermelon punch]

Flugpatz, Schwedenkreuz, and Klostertal on the 'ring can be taken almost flat out in road cars under 300hp when you have racing tires installed.

Hmmm... Well I think you can talk about any number of things this way. Surely there's plenty of parts of tracks that can be taken flat out in certain cars, & not in others, with racing tires, or comfort tires.

I've made some eiffel course maker courses with some pretty wild successive hinky off-camber corners, where it's necessary to modulate throttle in a little antique car. LOL Yet you can take the same car on the same tires and drive it pretty much flat out the whole way round say Deep Forest.

So still soundin' like a lot of apples & oranges to me.

Seriously does it matter ,Theres always going to be someone who can go faster with one arm tied behind their back or whilst eating a banana
** snip **
its not like its even a real car, hell if it was half the people here wouldn't even reach the pedals

LOL

MMMM bananas...

I think most could reach the peddles. But most would be dead now if it was a real car. In real life, nobody gets a rollover trophy... just a trip to the ER if they're lucky, the cemetery if they're not.

 

[Stotty]

Report back indeed, I don't think you'll stand a chance against Ito but that's no shame. I golded the Vettel challenges but was still five seconds off the mark in this one...

I had a quick go at this last night in an '03 NSX... unfortunately I didn't check which model it was 1st so I didn't use the right one (assuming there are differences between individual cars from the same year).

For me at least, I don't think sub 1'50 is doable, but a low 1'50 is. I managed a 51.5 after around 20 laps, but with some more work on the suspension and gearing I reckon I could knock another second off that.

I'm around 1.5s off at T1 (mid 48s vs what looks like a high 46 or low 47 in the video), so the rest of the lap is fairly similar to real life.

One thing did occur to me... fuel load. In GT5 Practice mode you're carying a full tank of gas and there's no fuel burn. I'm assuming the qualifying lap in question is run with minimal fuel load... it could be that the real car is c.100kg lighter (depending on fuel tank size) than the GT5 car. Might be the GT5 time would fall if the session was run on-line (if it ever comes back!)... run enough laps to get the tank almost empty, then pit for fresh tyres and give it a go.

I'll give it a go with the proper car and come back.

In context of this discussion, the JGTC car is incredibly easy to drive on race softs. It requires almost no throttle sensitivity at all when it comes to corner exits - the only place you have to watchout for power oversteer is the exit of the Hairpin (in 2nd gear)... meaning no need for a tight diff. Rest of the time you're just managing a bit of gentle understeer (which I intend to get rid with some suspension work).

 

[Lion-Face]

For me at least, I don't think sub 1'50 is doable, but a low 1'50 is. I managed a 51.5 after around 20 laps, but with some more work on the suspension and gearing I reckon I could knock another second off that.

One thing did occur to me... fuel load. In GT5 Practice mode you're carying a full tank of gas and there's no fuel burn. I'm assuming the qualifying lap in question is run with minimal fuel load... it could be that the real car is c.100kg lighter (depending on fuel tank size) than the GT5 car. Might be the GT5 time would fall if the session was run on-line (if it ever comes back!)... run enough laps to get the tank almost empty, then pit for fresh tyres and give it a go.

At your first point, I believe with more time and setup tweaking that time is doable. After 20 laps your less than 2 seconds off, your only really scratching the surface.

I don't believe your carrying a full tank of gas in practice mode. The gas tank shows a full tank but I don't believe it is taken into account for practice. Take that same car into an endurance race and I think you'll find you won't be able to match your practice times due to carrying a full tank.

Other differences to take into account would be a qualifying run on super soft tires. The GT500 cars in GT5 are 2006 models, the NSX in that video is 2007. So regulation differences/tires/car performance may be different, if ever so slightly. I'm not sure myself if there are any actual differences, just throwing it out there. In saying that, with the time you've achieved in 20laps, I would say you'd be able to match that time with more time put in.

EDIT: Read that wrong, I see you did it in an '03 NSX. The older, non premium NSX cars are faster than the newer models and a lot more tame than the 06 premium models. You probably won't be able to match that time in the '06 Arta NSX. Color me impressed if you do

 

[Stotty]

I've already got a lap on my board from the premium Raybrig, which IIRC, is about 1s slower than the 03 Takata... but that's an old lap with no tuning and was done in only a few laps. I'll give it a go with the Arta 06 and see how I get on.

I know Suzuka very, very well (from hours of racing it on-line in GT5P), so I'd be surprised if 1.5-2s isn't incredibly difficult to find... still, need something to do on GT5 with on-line being down

 

[Greycap]

I'm around 1.5s off at T1 (mid 48s vs what looks like a high 46 or low 47 in the video), so the rest of the lap is fairly similar to real life.

That's highly interesting as it means that you're losing all the time in the sector that requires the most grip. If the tyres were far better than in real life, surely you could match the first sector easily and then pull away on the rest? But you can't so it really seems that the real life tyres are better than Racing Softs and if not a lot better, certainly not any worse. Your Suzuka experience is probably very close to Ito's level too, perhaps better still, so it's a pretty fair game.

Even I agree that RSs are an overkill for just about anything road going but for cars that use them in real life, they seem to be very well modelled.

 

[guyr1]

Ever since I started reading this forum, I've noticed a distinct bias against the RS tires, and people who run them. I simply don't understand this, because if I have a mind to go for a fast lap, why wouldn't I go for every advantage? It's just logic to me. Or is this sort of like the grenade launcher thing in Black Ops where people get pissed when they see someone using it? Just curious

If they are in the game use them, dont worry about other people moaning its their problem and not yours.

 

[Stotty]

Even I agree that RSs are an overkill for just about anything road going but for cars that use them in real life, they seem to be very well modelled.

Now there I agree with you 100%... racing softs on LMP cars for racing and on JGTC and DTM's for qualifying would be fine by me. As I've said all along... slicks belong on racing cars and then super soft slicks belong on only the top formula.

IMO, PD could make this a mute discussion by changing the tyre wear on all the classes... so softs lasted around half the time hards last, with mediums somewhere in between. As it stands there's no disadvantage to people just picking the best tyres in an open lobby as besides being miles faster, softs actually last longer than hards.

As for the JGTC lap time... yes, the T1 split it would indicate that if all other variables are accurate, but I really douby they are. I did notice the JGTC car in the video is in 3rd gear through the esses, where as I'm in 4th for most of them. Still think there might be a chance if I can find a miracle set up

And yeah, I probably do have more laps at Suzuka than Ito

 

[Greycap]

IMO, PD could make this a mute discussion by changing the tyre wear on all the classes... so softs lasted around half the time hards last, with mediums somewhere in between.

Quite true. However, people say that the soft compound should wear out quicker but I disagree with that - it's the hard compound that should last longer. Softs are pretty well in the ballpark when you consider the F1 option and prime tyres (I never remember which is which so I'll use soft and hard from now on) and their wearing rates. In GT5 endurance races with my 908 HDi the soft tyres lasted five or six laps on Circuit de la Sarthe - approximately 68 to 82 km, and three or four laps on the 24h layout of the Nürburgring - 78 to 104 km. It would mean around 15 to 20 laps on an average F1 circuit until the softs are worn out. They actually ran a lot longer on them (before this year and the "poof they're gone" Pirellis) so the softs are OK to me and it's the hards that should get something like three times the endurance compared to what we have now.

 

[OwensRacing]

Love to see a tire wear update.

I would like to see softs wear a little faster and Hards last a little longer.


Solid want and seems many agree that we need a new model on tire wear.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just watched the video above and I have a question. Do most of you guys or any or some go flat out in the last left hander before the final chicane?

 

[TobbE26]

I dont really think its possible to go flat out in that corner in the faster cars. Not atlest without looots of downforce

 

[chuyler1]

Yeah, it depends on the speed you reach when you approach the turn as well as the tires you are on.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well seeing as how he was on a 1:49.xx lap in GT5 that translates to racing softs and he was flat out through that left hander. What is the speed entering that corner? 250 km/h? 260 km/h? I'll have to give that a spin this weekend in a GT500 car unless the network comes up...lol..

 

[watermelon punch]

@ Stotty - I'll be interested to see the results, so definitely report back!
I also hope someone else will test run. (You know, someone who has a shot. in other words - NOT me. LOL)

I'm still a little confused about fuel burn.
I tend to get better lap times online than in my practice area... and I wondered if that was at issue. But I think it's more likely I just get better lap times when I'm with other people on a track.
But there seems to be conflicting info on the point of fuel.

Even I agree that RSs are an overkill for just about anything road going but for cars that use them in real life, they seem to be very well modelled.

I think your arguments are best Greycap. I think if used in the manner they were intended (short term on racy cars) racing soft probably aren't "unreal grip". Unreal wear, yes...

But I think the only reasons to not use them are based on points like Chuyler1 and others bring up... the preferences about how some cars handle in certain things.

Not about how they compare to real life.

While I don't always agree with some of the preferences, or I just haven't experienced what some others see... with some I see they're based in something someone genuinely experiences.

Others, I'm just not sure. I don't think just saying "unrealistic grip" is the end-all of the issue.

THIS HERE:

Love to see a tire wear update.

I would like to see softs wear a little faster and Hards last a little longer.

Solid want and seems many agree that we need a new model on tire wear.

I agree. I think this is the MAJOR point with racing softs... as well as softs of any type frankly. I see the problem in sports tires too.

My bf has said over & over that the tire wear in GT4 seemed more like real life. And in Gt5, it's just way off. (And he knows about real life tires. I don't, but I know he knows what he's talking about.)

 

[shidoshi_rob]

Personally I prefer soft rubber...we are talking about bondage aint we? lol

 

[nasanu]

Realism claims are debatable. Skill isn't. If I can get 1.30 lap time with sport hards, and you can only manage that time, in the same car, with sport softs, that means I have more "skill" than you. It is harder (ie more challenge) to get fast times in slower cars, or harder tires, there isn't really any argument you can make against that.

Kind of missed the my point entirely.

Sorry, but that's not true.

If you follow the WRS you'll find that the gaps between divisions are biggest as power increase and/or grip decreases. The more skilled drivers are disproportionally faster as the car becomes harder to drive.

Yes, this backs up what I said. Those who are used to more grip are disadvantaged and the gaps increase. It does not work the other direction because going from less grip to more is very easy. This leads to larger gaps and leaderboards that are much easier to climb. I can get a top 50 time trial time in GT5 or GT5P when I used to play it much easier than I ever did could in the PGR or TOCA games. When a car is very easy to control everyone is on a high pace. That makes it hard.

 

[Stotty]

I had a go in the '06 Arta last night and it won't be possible for me to go much below 1'50.5. I ran a 1'51.043 last night, and I did slightly miss a few apex's, but no more than a few tenths... and that was with a stage 2 turbo upgrade (to 530bhp). I'm confident enough in my understanding of the track and what's possible for me to know I can't get the real life record.

Something's not quite right with the cars though. The '03 Takata I tried previously had more power (hence me trying the '06 with a turbo), and despite having max downforce of 35/60 vs 40/65, actually has more absolute grip!

Watching the replay back and seeing how much distain you can give the throttle with race softs does rather prove my point I feel... there are only 3 corner exits where you can't just nail the throttle without any fear of losing traction. The rest of the lap is simply managing understeer.

 

[watermelon punch]

Yes, this backs up what I said. Those who are used to more grip are disadvantaged and the gaps increase. It does not work the other direction because going from less grip to more is very easy. This leads to larger gaps and leaderboards that are much easier to climb. I can get a top 50 time trial time in GT5 or GT5P when I used to play it much easier than I ever did could in the PGR or TOCA games. When a car is very easy to control everyone is on a high pace. That makes it hard.

But by this argument... basically you're saying that better drivers do worse on slicks. If someone's better, they ought to be EVEN better on slicks. No?

To me all this proves is that people with more experience on lesser tires, do better on lesser tires than people who are less experienced on lesser tires.

And people more experienced driving harder to handle cars, are going to do better in harder to handle cars than people with less experience in harder to handle cars.

Obvious. And apples & oranges somewhat. ?
I'm just not sure I see where it all connects up?

I'm not sure how it proves slicks are unrealistic in gt5. ??
(Not that *I* am saying tires at all are realistic in gt5 - but that was the argument I thought - that all other tires are realistic, but slicks are not.)

 

[Lion-Face]

Something's not quite right with the cars though. The '03 Takata I tried previously had more power (hence me trying the '06 with a turbo), and despite having max downforce of 35/60 vs 40/65, actually has more absolute grip!

Hence why I stated in my post above that I'd be impressed if you got near that lap time in the 06 model as the standard model GT500 NSX's are faster. I have been doing a lot of testing with the NSX GT500 cars for the next enduro season I compete in and had noticed this. With a slight drop in wing performance, what I can figure is the floor of the cars being different due to regulations from the different years. The Standard models feel a lot more stable through high speed corners, while as the years have gone on, the GT500 rules have changed to remove some of the advantage the MR cars have, so I can only assume this is where the differences come in, and it isn't reflected in the down force settings as they only relate to the adjustable wings on the cars.

Whats also interesting is the PP rating given to each car. In the upcoming season, the HP/Weight limits are set to 600hp/1150kg. At these restrictions the standard model NSX's usually end up approx 620pp, while the premium model NSX's run around the 624pp mark, yet the standard models are easier to drive and faster around the track generally by about half a second, if not faster. Test track being Grand Valley Speedway on racing mediums.

 

[Stotty]

Hence why I stated in my post above that I'd be impressed if you got near that lap time in the 06 model as the standard model GT500 NSX's are faster. I have been doing a lot of testing with the NSX GT500 cars for the next enduro season I compete in and had noticed this. With a slight drop in wing performance, what I can figure is the floor of the cars being different due to regulations from the different years. The Standard models feel a lot more stable through high speed corners, while as the years have gone on, the GT500 rules have changed to remove some of the advantage the MR cars have, so I can only assume this is where the differences come in, and it isn't reflected in the down force settings as they only relate to the adjustable wings on the cars.

Whats also interesting is the PP rating given to each car. In the upcoming season, the HP/Weight limits are set to 600hp/1150kg. At these restrictions the standard model NSX's usually end up approx 620pp, while the premium model NSX's run around the 624pp mark, yet the standard models are easier to drive and faster around the track generally by about half a second, if not faster. Test track being Grand Valley Speedway on racing mediums.

At least I now have what I think is a pretty good tune for the premium JGTC NSX (well, it works on the Arta)... get's rid of the understeer and is still mega stable in the fast stuff.

Today I'm going to have a go in one of the GTR's and see if it's possible to get near the lap record in one of those. The GTR's are a bit faster than the NSX's IME.