What exactly is so shameful about using Racing Soft tires?

[Johnnypenso]

This is an interesting one for me, and sort of put the discussion in to some context.

I will never understand why people take a perfectly good road car and then chuck all the upgrades on it to the point where it requires tyres to completely at odds with anything realistic for that car just make it drivable.

My experience of playing GT games (and I've played pretty much all of them to completion) is that road cars are so much more enjoyable to drive with only minimal upgrades... I do generally put fully adjustable suspension on mine so I can dial out the stupid fixed +ve rear toe that means almost every car has horrendous understeer as standard. Other than that I find upgrades actually degrade the enjoyment of driving them.

If I want to experience the speed of 700bhp, I'll go pick a proper racing car out of my garage and race that.

Half the reason people feel the need to stick super sticky on thier cars is because they have modded them way beyond anything the car was designed to be.

Most of you would become much better drivers if you spent more time in untuned cars with sensible power levels... that way you'd learn proper driving skills and actually begin to understand the nuances of the physics engine and how to get the best out of it.

I pretty much agree with you but since I don't enjoy racing against the AI's and do enjoy racing against real people in a huge variety of cars and tires, I tend to go online in either random rooms that are set up to my liking or rooms of people I have raced with before and do a good job hosting. Rooms running anything other than racing softs are few and far between so I tend towards those rooms most of the time, but once in a while I do find a decent room with lesser tires, mostly sports softs and do enjoy it and do quite well most of the time.

I don't find driving with SS much different that with RS in that the objective for me is always to find the traction limit and not exceed it. The only difference is the traction limit is lower and after a race or two I'm adjusted and off we go. I wish there was more SS racing with cars that are closer to their natural tune level but I have to say that hopping into a 700 hp V10 BMW or a 1000 hp Viper is still quite a thrill...lol...not to mention a driving challenge.

 

[Silversky81]

Is it shame to use Racing Hard? I love them, never used racing soft, only racing hard and sport soft! I haven't never played online so which are the most used type of tires in online races? Thanks

 

[JLawrence]

Is it shame to use Racing Hard? I love them, never used racing soft, only racing hard and sport soft! I haven't never played online so which are the most used type of tires in online races? Thanks

I usually use RH myself simply because they ride like my Hoosier TDs, but I have noticed that the only way to really drive some cars (like the big LMP cars or the Cobra) is to switch to the softer compound.

 

[Basilea]

Nothing!

 

[ImprezaAddict]

Is it shame to use Racing Hard? I love them, never used racing soft, only racing hard and sport soft! I haven't never played online so which are the most used type of tires in online races? Thanks

The most widely used tire in online is Racing Soft, simply because the grip is practically endless. Either RS or Comfort Hards to drift, but that seems unlikely to me.

 

[watermelon punch]

Can someone reword & explain this part of the conversation for me because I'm having trouble understanding it?

Most of you would become much better drivers if you spent more time in untuned cars with sensible power levels... that way you'd learn proper driving skills and actually begin to understand the nuances of the physics engine and how to get the best out of it.

reply to that was:

If only that was true. Running the cars at the epidome of it's able performance and then being able to use the most of it will make you a better driver. Tire spin through 3rd gear will not improve your driving ability at all.

I'm not sure I'm getting the gist of what's being said with these 2 comments.

But what it made me think of is that I'm not learning much about anything if I'm drifting without a cause on comfort hards. LOL

I mean some people would have you buy a lamborghini or an Elise & forget about the sports tires it comes with - and say you ought to put comfort hards on it.
There are comfort tire die hards on this forum. I don't have a problem with them doing that if they prefer it. I'm just saying if you went by their recommendations, you'd have to go buy comfort tires for every car you have, and maybe even put them on your race & touring cars, I don't know.

I'm thinking whatever car & tires you choose, you're going to learn whatever you're learning ... about driving that car on those tires.

Clearly if you never drive a particular type of unmodified car on comfort tires, you're not going to learn how to drive that unmodified car on comfort tires.

But somehow I'm getting the impression that some people are saying that you can get the game having never played before, NEVER drive anything but unmodified cars on comfort tires... and that will just automatically make you good at driving modified cars on racing tires... Is that really true? Is that what people are saying?

I can maybe buy an argument that says maybe you'd learn better if you started with comfort tires & worked that way instead of the other way round. But I'm convinced there's a different skill set involved. That learning to drift around on comfort hards is not necessarily going to teach you to line drive at the limits on racing tires.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding the points being discussed here?

I'm mainly coming back for the old lady gossip mag quality after all. (j/k)

 

[ImprezaAddict]

But somehow I'm getting the impression that some people are saying that you can get the game having never played before, NEVER drive anything but unmodified cars on comfort tires... and that will just automatically make you good at driving modified cars on racing tires... Is that really true? Is that what people are saying?

I can maybe buy an argument that says maybe you'd learn better if you started with comfort tires & worked that way instead of the other way round. But I'm convinced there's a different skill set involved. That learning to drift around on comfort hards is not necessarily going to teach you to line drive at the limits on racing tires.

Not really. Those "purists", I guess, believe that the amount of realism increases exponentially with less grip. So least grip = Most realism.

In short, I agree with what you're saying.

 

[watermelon punch]

The most widely used tire in online is Racing Soft, simply because the grip is practically endless.

I disagree. (Respectfully. of course.)

First, I don't think racing soft tires have "limitless grip". But I DO think racing soft tires have "unrealistic tire wear". In other words, I think if used in the manner they are meant to (short-term), it would be sensible.
But when used for near-endurance lengths, racing soft tires - the grip does not wear away realistically.
Meaning in real life racing hards would last much longer than racing soft. But in the game, racing hards wear out quickly, and racing softs do not wear out quickly - in fact you can use racing softs longer. (Which is not right.)

In other words, the problem (inaccuracy) is not with the grip - but with tire wear. I don't know if the wear is "limitless", but it is too long. And this is widely thought of to be a flaw in the game.

Second, I don't think racing soft tires are used the most in online racing.
I'm sure this might depend on who you are racing where, and what kind of cars. (That may account for this disagreement.)
But I think by far, most people don't use racing softs in online races.

If you look at the organized online races (in the online section of the forum) most are not allowing racing soft tires. Even the race car series seem to have "racing hards" as the restriction, maybe medium, or even sports.

Also, in my experience looking at public lobby races... Only some lobbies running race cars have no tire restrictions. Most of the race car lobbies restrict to racing hards or mediums.

 

[JLawrence]

I can maybe buy an argument that says maybe you'd learn better if you started with comfort tires & worked that way instead of the other way round. But I'm convinced there's a different skill set involved. That learning to drift around on comfort hards is not necessarily going to teach you to line drive at the limits on racing tires.

From my own experience, I would say that comfort tires are all about car control and how to handle driving on the ragged edge, because thats more or less what it becomes when you really push them. Once you graduate to racing tires it's about being able to push your car to the ragged edge. So yes, learning to drive well on the comfort or sports tires will help you with the racing tires, but thats only if you can push them hard enough to reach that same razors edge of control. That is what so many don't seem to realize. Yes, you can go faster by just slapping on a set of RM or RS tires, but without that extra drive so to speak, you won't really be going fast.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

I disagree. (Respectfully. of course.)

First, I don't think racing soft tires have "limitless grip". But I DO think racing soft tires have "unrealistic tire wear". In other words, I think if used in the manner they are meant to (short-term), it would be sensible.
But when used for near-endurance lengths, racing soft tires - the grip does not wear away realistically.
Meaning in real life racing hards would last much longer than racing soft. But in the game, racing hards wear out quickly, and racing softs do not wear out quickly - in fact you can use racing softs longer. (Which is not right.)

In other words, the problem (inaccuracy) is not with the grip - but with tire wear. I don't know if the wear is "limitless", but it is too long. And this is widely thought of to be a flaw in the game.

Second, I don't think racing soft tires are used the most in online racing.
I'm sure this might depend on who you are racing where, and what kind of cars. (That may account for this disagreement.)
But I think by far, most people don't use racing softs in online races.

If you look at the organized online races (in the online section of the forum) most are not allowing racing soft tires. Even the race car series seem to have "racing hards" as the restriction, maybe medium, or even sports.

Also, in my experience looking at public lobby races... Only some lobbies running race cars have no tire restrictions. Most of the race car lobbies restrict to racing hards or mediums.

From my experience, Racing Softs are the most widely used. It could be because most of my racing is done in random Nurburgring rooms split 50/50 race/cruise.

You're right, RS tires don't have "endless grip". I meant that as a figure of speech, but I guess the right way to say it is "crazy amounts of grip". I can't answer on wear and durability since I don't pay much attention to it. Most of my Nurburgring races are one lap because I'm somewhat lazy and so are many others. However, I have noticed RS tires generally last a little under two full laps of the Nurburgring Nordschleife. I'm guessing RH tires last about the same or just a little more?

Concerning GTP's online racing section, I do agree. GTPlanet members tend to limit themselves to Sport Softs and Racing Hards, although there are obviously exceptions.

 

[watermelon punch]

Not really. Those "purists", I guess, believe that the amount of realism increases exponentially with less grip. So least grip = Most realism.

In short, I agree with what you're saying.

Well at least we agree on something.
But I'm still not sure what we're agreeing about. LOL

What I mean is that I'm still not sure what the argument is...??

I would have assumed that when people say "learn driving skills" they mean learning to play the game - ie: learning driving skills to be used in gt5.

But what are they trying to say?
That you learn more about real life race track racing by playing the game with tires that were designed for trips to the grocery store?
That you can use the game to learn real life public road driving by going on race tracks & racing in gt5?



The whole thing I'm not even sure if I'm reading it right anymore. Or if I'm misunderstanding the entire discussion. LOL

You're right, RS tires don't have "endless grip". I meant that as a figure of speech, but I guess the right way to say it is "crazy amounts of grip". I can't answer on wear and durability since I don't pay much attention to it. Most of my Nurburgring races are one lap because I'm somewhat lazy and so are many others. However, I have noticed RS tires generally last a little under two full laps of the Nurburgring Nordschleife. I'm guessing RH tires last about the same or just a little more?

Hmmm... I think you should do a test and compareYou will see a difference I think in tire wear.

Racing hard tires wear out abruptly.
Take for example, whatever car on whatever track... You can go so many laps, then suddenly get 2-3 laps that are wonderful... then suddenly the next lap BAM - the tires are not gripping anymore! A few laps after that... you're sliding all over the road.

It's LESS abrupt & sharp on medium...

And softs seem to last longer with more grip...

But in real life, softs would be more grippy to start. BUT would wear sooner. And hards would last much longer than softs. Not so in the game.

From my own experience, I would say that comfort tires are all about car control and how to handle driving on the ragged edge, because thats more or less what it becomes when you really push them. Once you graduate to racing tires it's about being able to push your car to the ragged edge. So yes, learning to drive well on the comfort or sports tires will help you with the racing tires, but thats only if you can push them hard enough to reach that same razors edge of control. That is what so many don't seem to realize. Yes, you can go faster by just slapping on a set of RM or RS tires, but without that extra drive so to speak, you won't really be going fast.

Okay but here's the thing... By that thinking, if you learn to really push on racing softs... Should make it even easier when you go drifting around on comfort hards?
And if so, the bragging rights issue would push more people to be using racing tires so they could brag about it. But that's not what I see. Seems like the bragging is mainly in not using slicks, or bragging about using comforts.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

Well at least we agree on something.
But I'm still not sure what we're agreeing about. LOL

What I mean is that I'm still not sure what the argument is...??
The original argument, posed by some previous posters, had something to do with tuning, tires, and stock cars.

I would have assumed that when people say "learn driving skills" they mean learning to play the game - ie: learning driving skills to be used in gt5.
Me too, it tends to be the literal understanding.
But what are they trying to say?
That you learn more about real life race track racing by playing the game with tires that were designed for trips to the grocery store?
That you can use the game to learn real life public road driving by going on race tracks & racing in gt5?
They want you to drive your Ferrari with the worst tires imaginable, so that you will learn what "true" car control is. I think?


The whole thing I'm not even sure if I'm reading it right anymore. Or if I'm misunderstanding the entire discussion. LOL

It strayed slightly off topic. And I guess this post will be so too.

Hmmm... I think you should do a test and compareYou will see a difference I think in tire wear.

Racing hard tires wear out abruptly.
Take for example, whatever car on whatever track... You can go so many laps, then suddenly get 2-3 laps that are wonderful... then suddenly the next lap BAM - the tires are not gripping anymore! A few laps after that... you're sliding all over the road.

It's LESS abrupt & sharp on medium...

And softs seem to last longer with more grip...

But in real life, softs would be more grippy to start. BUT would wear sooner. And hards would last much longer than softs. Not so in the game.

I'll try that tommorow and see how it goes. I'll test on a short and curvy track.

Regardless, I enjoy driving RS tires.

 

[JLawrence]

Okay but here's the thing... By that thinking, if you learn to really push on racing softs... Should make it even easier when you go drifting around on comfort hards?
And if so, the bragging rights issue would push more people to be using racing tires so they could brag about it. But that's not what I see. Seems like the bragging is mainly in not using slicks, or bragging about using comforts.

I don't know about drifting as in the style of driving, but if you mean the controlling the car as it is careening around a corner ready to spin at any second, yes. Really pushing with the racing tires and getting those truly fast times requires an incredible amount of finesse in terms of throttle and brake inputs, and steering control, which does translate to the lower quality tires.

 

[Exorcet]

This is an interesting one for me, and sort of put the discussion in to some context.

I will never understand why people take a perfectly good road car and then chuck all the upgrades on it to the point where it requires tyres to completely at odds with anything realistic for that car just make it drivable.

My experience of playing GT games (and I've played pretty much all of them to completion) is that road cars are so much more enjoyable to drive with only minimal upgrades... I do generally put fully adjustable suspension on mine so I can dial out the stupid fixed +ve rear toe that means almost every car has horrendous understeer as standard. Other than that I find upgrades actually degrade the enjoyment of driving them.

If I want to experience the speed of 700bhp, I'll go pick a proper racing car out of my garage and race that.

Half the reason people feel the need to stick super sticky on thier cars is because they have modded them way beyond anything the car was designed to be.

Most of you would become much better drivers if you spent more time in untuned cars with sensible power levels... that way you'd learn proper driving skills and actually begin to understand the nuances of the physics engine and how to get the best out of it.

I disagree completely. There is no unrealistic amount of tuning in GT, and driving super tuned cars on RS tires will make the best super tuned car RS drivers out there. It doesn't make any sense to drive 400 hp cars on SH tires if you're going to race 800 hp cars on RS.

If I want to experience the speed of 700bhp, I'll go pick a proper racing car out of my garage and race that.

I don't see much in this, no matter how much I hear it. Why is 700 hp "proper" in a race car, but not in a tuned car? There is no proper way to get 700 hp. There is no proper set up for a road car. What the driver/player wants is proper, and that's pretty much it.

Also, above you talk about driving on lower tires to feel the nuances of the physics engine, but you only advocate higher grip, more stable, easier to drive racing cars for high hp. It sounds like a contradiction.

 

[watermelon punch]

I don't know about drifting as in the style of driving, but if you mean the controlling the car as it is careening around a corner ready to spin at any second, yes. Really pushing with the racing tires and getting those truly fast times requires an incredible amount of finesse in terms of throttle and brake inputs, and steering control, which does translate to the lower quality tires.

But why lower quality tires would be "more difficult"? That's what I'm trying to figure out. RE: "style of driving" Well yes & no ... I think it depends. That's what I'm trying to get to the heart of with this.
Is there some mystery secret weapon quality to comfort tires that makes them special to some people. Or is it just that it "feels" more challenging... or feels more exciting? Or is it really that it takes more skill to be fastest with comforts than to be fastest on slicks...
Because again and again, it just sounds like a variation of the same thing. And learning one before the other seems more or less arbitrary.... no reason not to mix it up.
Unless there's something I'm missing.

Also, above you talk about driving on lower tires to feel the nuances of the physics engine, but you only advocate higher grip, more stable, easier to drive racing cars for high hp. It sounds like a contradiction.

Yes, yes. A contradiction. It sounds like ALL contradictions... every time I think there's maybe something to base these ideas and arguments for/against certain tires... I see some contradiction that's confusing.

And I keep coming back to the same conclusion... that the reasons have nothing to do with the arguments, it's all about opinions & preferences. And there's no one better route, no one best goal.

And the only reason soft tires (as opposed to medium or hard) is an issue is that the tire wear in gt5 is not right. Other than that, it's all apples & oranges & what do you like?

 

[Stotty]

If only that was true. Running the cars at the epidome of it's able performance and then being able to use the most of it will make you a better driver. Tire spin through 3rd gear will not improve your driving ability at all.

Running with less grip will make you a better driver... period.

If you can drive a 300bhp, 1200kg car on comfort softs competitively, you'll have no problem driving anything on race softs. You'll learn a lot more about the importance of being smooth with your inputs, how to properly use the throttle and how important it is to manage weight transfer.

On race softs all you really need to worry about is a bit of tyre slip in lower gears. The vast majority of the time you can just mash the throttle from the apex without any fear of losing traction.

Still, if you want to convince yourselves you're **** hot drivers because you can handle a car on race softs, that's up to you.

 

[Sohvakettu]

I'm a big fan of SH and RH tires myself, but:

On race softs all you really need to worry about is a bit of tyre slip in lower gears. The vast majority of the time you can just mash the throttle from the apex without any fear of losing traction.

Doesn't this just mean that you aren't driving through the corner at the limit of the tire grip whatever the compound is (ie. too slow)? To quote Ross Bentley: "If the car feels like it is on rails, you are probably driving too slow."

 

[Blitz187]

I prefer racing softs because I like to be at the limit of the car and also because I believe that although a 700 hp BMW M5 is technically a street car, it wasn't designed to run at 220 mph on street tires with 700 hp.

Ultimately it's personal preference and while it's ok to tout your personal preference there's no need to put anyone else down for theirs. It's call tolerance...we should all try it sometime...lol.

Take a fully tuned (700+ HP) M5 on Sports Soft tires to the 'Ring without a wing and see how much fun it is... I have one in my garage and I refuse to put racing softs on it because it becomes to freakin' easy to drive and to clinical. There's nothing like the feeling of going FULL speed through corners and the backend pops out a bit only to catch it and continue on course. I'm not slagging RS tires here and for me it completely comes down to preference. I keep Sports tires on road cars (even if theyre tuned to the max) and racing tires on race cars... For me it gives the best result :tup:

 

[Ecchi-BANZAII!!]

My thoughts exactly... when I looked at the list the BMW was the car that stood out.

It has a reason.
Damage set to heavy.
People do whatever they can to get first, the M3 driver didn't crash in the first hairpin or corner cut so he didn't get the 10 second penalty either.
It means that car performance does not equal skills.

There nothinig like the feeling of going FULL speed through corners and the backend pops out a bit only to catch it and continue on course.

Your sense of FULL speed is either Skid Recovery force related or just FULL speed on second gear.

 

[Blitz187]

Your sense of FULL speed is either Skid Recovery force related or just FULL speed on second gear.

What are you on about? I dont use aids and use a wheel... Are you really that dense? "FULL speed" was just an exaggeration to get my point across... Get off your high horse.

 

[kilttraeger]

There nothinig like the feeling of going FULL speed through corners and the backend pops out a bit only to catch it and continue on course.

Your sense of FULL speed is either Skid Recovery force related or just FULL speed on second gear.

I don't get the SRF relevance...

Nürburgring Nordschleife, there are a couple of places where you have the opportunity to go full throttle (speed) and have you back end stepping out, e.g. Schwedenkreuz, Kesselchen, Pflanzgarten.. and to catch the car and continue at a high pace is quite exhilarating
(done many times in online lobbies, with only ABS allowed)

 

[Blitz187]

I don't get the SRF relevance...

Nürburgring Nordschleife, there are a couple of places where you have the opportunity to go full throttle (speed) and have you back end stepping out, e.g. Schwedenkreuz, Kesselchen, Pflanzgarten.. and to catch the car and continue at a high pace is quite exhilarating
(done many times in online lobbies, with only ABS allowed)

Thank you for understanding 👍 Atleast some people do!

 

[Stotty]

There's nothing like the feeling of going FULL speed through corners and the backend pops out a bit only to catch it and continue on course.

👍

My current project is trying to run sub 7 minutes at the 'Ring in a fully tuned Enzo... 920bhp, slightly over 1,000kg... and sports hard tyres.

This combo is a object lesson in throttle control!

The car will easily spin it's wheels in a straight line in 3rd gear, and will oversteer easily in 4th gear on only partial throttle if you have any sort of steering lock on or if you hit a bump or kerb the wrong way. At the beginning it was oversteering in 5th gear too, but I've managed to stop that by lengthening the gearing.

3rd and 4th gear oversteer is not usually a big issue, except the Enzo is geared to hit >230mph, so when it let's go towards the top of 4th you're sideways at >150mph... very interesting (!) and very challenging

Currently around 3s off.

 

[Johnnypenso]

But why lower quality tires would be "more difficult"? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Or is it just that it "feels" more challenging... or feels more exciting? Or is it really that it takes more skill to be fastest with comforts than to be fastest on slicks...

Unless there's something I'm missing.

I think that's it in a nutshell Punch. It feels more challenging to be on the harder tires with less grip and some people feel that's more skilful although I'd say that probably isn't the case. It is still just a video game, and adapting to harder tires is a matter of time and practice like every other skill in the game. Some people may not acquire that skill with lots of practice, but I see lots of people online who can't get their high HP street cars or racecars anywhere close to the limit on RS's either.

To my mind you either "get" driving at racing speeds and car control or you don't. If you get it you can adapt to any vehicle with any tire. If you don't get it, you will be slow with any tire or any car.

You are right about a lot of the leagues restricting tire choices but I think most of the public lobbies have unlimited tire selection, meaning almost everyone uses RS's and certainly if you want to win you do. At least in my experience anyway.

 

[Blitz187]

👍

My current project is trying to run sub 7 minutes at the 'Ring in a fully tuned Enzo... 920bhp, slightly over 1,000kg... and sports hard tyres.

This combo is a object lesson in throttle control!

The car will easily spin it's wheels in a straight line in 3rd gear, and will oversteer easily in 4th gear on only partial throttle if you have any sort of steering lock on or if you hit a bump or kerb the wrong way. At the beginning it was oversteering in 5th gear too, but I've managed to stop that by lengthening the gearing.

3rd and 4th gear oversteer is not usually a big issue, except the Enzo is geared to hit >230mph, so when it let's go towards the top of 4th you're sideways at >150mph... very interesting (!) and very challenging

Currently around 3s off.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about... I can't get the excitement from slapping on RS tires on every car... If I go online I adjust to whats necessary or whats restricted in respect to tire choice... but hotlapping offline I will always put sports tires on a road car, even if its tuned to the max. 👍 It just feels more rewarding if you get that "perfect" lap on the 'Ring driving at the seat of your pants

 

[Exorcet]

I usually use RH myself simply because they ride like my Hoosier TDs, but I have noticed that the only way to really drive some cars (like the big LMP cars or the Cobra) is to switch to the softer compound.

How is this? RH is my standard on all race cars, Group C and LMP included, and going above comfort soft on a Cobra basically counts as tuning. How is it that they require softer compounds? And what is really driving?

The only time I might agree with this, is LMP on Nurburgring, because I had a strange experience with the 908 on RH's where the tires would not warm up until they were basically worn out. Though I haven't tried that in a long while, so I don't know if I just had a bad set up.

Still, if you want to convince yourselves you're **** hot drivers because you can handle a car on race softs, that's up to you.

It sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself. What good would it do anyone to drive a 300 hp car on CS when they're going to be racing LMP's on RS? It will do nothing. In fact it will probably hinder them. Don't assume and belittle others because you don't understand the competitive aspect of RS racing. You're not going to win by "mashing throttles". You need to be better than everyone else. That means apexes, timing, positioning, and placing the car right on the limit. Sounds just like every other tire.

The cars might be a bit easier to control, but the race is no less fierce. RS racing is it's own thing, it's not the junior league. No one needs to be enlightened by lower grip tires.

 

[JLawrence]

But why lower quality tires would be "more difficult"? That's what I'm trying to figure out. RE: "style of driving" Well yes & no ... I think it depends. That's what I'm trying to get to the heart of with this.
Is there some mystery secret weapon quality to comfort tires that makes them special to some people. Or is it just that it "feels" more challenging... or feels more exciting? Or is it really that it takes more skill to be fastest with comforts than to be fastest on slicks...
Because again and again, it just sounds like a variation of the same thing. And learning one before the other seems more or less arbitrary.... no reason not to mix it up.
Unless there's something I'm missing.

They're not. They just appear to be because of the ragged edge effect that I mentioned earlier. You get that same feeling if you are pushing hard enough on the racing compounds as well, though the majority of people never get that far because they're convinced that when you slap a set of those things on it makes you the perfect driver and doesn't require any more than that. I suppose you could call it a variation of the same thing, only at higher speeds with the racing tires.

👍

My current project is trying to run sub 7 minutes at the 'Ring in a fully tuned Enzo... 920bhp, slightly over 1,000kg... and sports hard tyres.

The car will easily spin it's wheels in a straight line in 3rd gear, and will oversteer easily in 4th gear on only partial throttle if you have any sort of steering lock on or if you hit a bump or kerb the wrong way. At the beginning it was oversteering in 5th gear too, but I've managed to stop that by lengthening the gearing.

I don't remember if you were one arguing for realism or not, but this certainly is not realistic at all. Obviously I've never had the opportunity to drive an Enzo, but I have seen a couple on the track and they are exceptionally smooth, and go like purpose built race cars. If I do recall that's basically what Ferrari designed the Enzo to be.

How is this? RH is my standard on all race cars, Group C and LMP included, and going above comfort soft on a Cobra basically counts as tuning. How is it that they require softer compounds? And what is really driving?

The only time I might agree with this, is LMP on Nurburgring, because I had a strange experience with the 908 on RH's where the tires would not warm up until they were basically worn out. Though I haven't tried that in a long while, so I don't know if I just had a bad set up.

On the Spitfire I have prepped in the game to match my racer in the garage the RH tires have the most similar grip levels to what I run on it (those TDs I mentioned). The Cobra, I have found, when maxed out needs the extra grip of the RM or usually the RS tires to stay competitive, for example the guys that do the Vintage Trans Am series on here are running times at Deep Forest around 1:11 or 12, and even on the RS tires I struggle to get the Cobra around the track that quick, not because I'm a bad driver, but because that amount of horsepower, in such a light car, allows for ridiculous amounts of wheel spin and oversteer. (I've been trying for weeks to come up with a really solid tune for it, so if you've got one please don't hesitate to share!)

What I was referring to in that other post, and I suppose I should have clarified more, was to go as fast as the car would allow and truly push its limits you have to have the racing tires, specifically the softs. And I'm not meaning that that's what you need to race with, I personally only race softs for time trials, qualifying, and on the Cobra (for now), I just mean that to get all you can out of a car that's what it takes.

 

[RobGT81]

I prefer races where cars are sliding about and skill is apparent

 

[chuyler1]

Good drivers don't need to make excuses for the tires they use. Good drivers are fast on any tire and understand how to adjust their line and modulate the throttle to make up for lack of grip.

Medicore drivers come up with excuses as to why a car needs racing soft tires. If you can't modulate the throttle to keep power down, practice. It is possible. Will you beat your times on racing soft tires? No. But you will experience something other than full gas, full brake as the subtleties of driving skill are revealed when less grip is available. Once you find the fast route around a track on lesser tires, you will improve your times on other tires.

 

[TenEightyOne]

They're not. They just appear to be because of the ragged edge effect that I mentioned earlier. You get that same feeling if you are pushing hard enough on the racing compounds as well, though the majority of people never get that far because they're convinced that when you slap a set of those things on it makes you the perfect driver and doesn't require any more than that.

Exactly. The tyres still have a limit - it's just that you have more lateral grip within which to find that limit.

The consequences of exceeding the limit are the same... in fact they're worse because you're departing at a greater speed.

Racing in a field of R:S tyres takes as much skill as racing on any other tyre. If you're up against other good drivers then you need to find the limit and stay there. If you're not on the limit you're slooooow.

I prefer races where cars are sliding about and skill is apparent

If people aren't sliding from time to time in R:S races then see my above comments... they're not going fast enough. Skill is still required even if the grip model/threshold has changed.