What exactly is so shameful about using Racing Soft tires?

[Stotty]

You race a Triumph Spitfire? Nice car... my brother had one when we were both much, much younger... he ended up parking it in someone's front garden after it got a little sideways on him one night

In relation to this thread in general....

Racing softs are the highest quality tyres in the game. The game includes cars from proper racing series such as JGTC, DTM, V8 Supercars, Le Mans and of course, Formula 1.

Even decent tip top series such as WTCC or BTCC won't run tyres anywhere near the quality of DTM, JGTC or F1.

So how anyone could consider it right to stick these tyres on a road car is beyond me... you're all kidding yourselves if you think that's realistic.

Some perspective...

All slick tyres are soft to a certain extent... do you think when they say 'option tyres' in F1 (as opposed to the softs) that the tyres are actually hard? No, they aren't. Compared to normal tyres they are very, very soft. Everything is relative.

 

[RUFFSTUFF]

I'm not a race car driver, but I play one on TV.

 

[Greycap]

Proves absolutely nothing as you're assuming everything else in the game is modelled accurately... such as the cars outright performance or the amount of downforce it has.

So when things get to the point in which you have to face the facts that show the real car cornering just as well if not even better than the one in the game it turns into a downforce modelling issue? Rrriiiight...

People like you (note: not singling you out personally) are the ones that make this discussion utterly pointless as you've decided that Racing Softs are unrealistically grippy and nothing can change your opinion, no matter how much evidence is thrown in you'll stubbornly stand behind it. Ever heard of a thing called being wrong? Admitting it? Apparently not. Well, your choice.

If the tyres were as good as you think the hypothetical downforce modelling problem wouldn't be an issue of any kind, the virtual car would still easily outrun its real life counterpart but it doesn't. It can just about match it when driven by a GT5 player as experienced as Ito himself. Either every physics calculation is wrong and the end result by some serious luck matches real life or *gasp* the tyres have realistic grip levels.

 

[Stotty]

I never said that the grip levels of racing softs in GT5 was unrealistic (though others may have), I was simply making the point that one example of a real life car/track/tyre combo vs the same in GT5 doesn't prove anything when there are so many other variables.

Statistically, a sample size of 1 doesn't prove anything in this case.

My point isn't that racing softs are unrealistic, merely that it's unrealistic (and lame/noobish, call it what you wish) to use them on road cars.

 

[freedomweasel]

I never said that the grip levels of racing softs in GT5 was unrealistic (though others may have), I was simply making the point that one example of a real life car/track/tyre combo vs the same in GT5 doesn't prove anything when there are so many other variables.

Statistically, a sample size of 1 doesn't prove anything in this case.

My point isn't that racing softs are unrealistic, merely that it's unrealistic (and lame/noobish, call it what you wish) to use them on road cars.

Maybe on an otherwise stock, or lightly modified road car. If I load an ACR (or something) with every imaginable upgrade and tune it to perfection, I essentially have a race car. I don't see much problem, as far as realism goes, to slap some super sticky tires on it. There are bone stock cars at autox events that have stickier tires than some actual race cars.

I do agree that it's more fun on harder tires though.

 

[nasanu]

I hate threads like this. The whole argument is false. People always equate less grip to increased realism, but not only that they equate it to increased challenge.

It is not true on both counts. To this day the game I have utilized my skills most fully on is still PGR2. It is a very arcade game and easy to pick up and play, but that only increases the challenge from other players. The easier a game is, the quicker the average player and the harder the challenge. The hardest thing I have done in gaming was getting to the top of the leader boards in the PGR games. Climbing leaderboards in simulation racing games is much easier because the time gaps become much greater.

You can debate realism with some justification. But equating grip levels to skill levels is stupid. You still have to beat the other guy.

 

[Stotty]

Maybe on an otherwise stock, or lightly modified road car. If I load an ACR (or something) with every imaginable upgrade and tune it to perfection, I essentially have a race car. I don't see much problem, as far as realism goes, to slap some super sticky tires on it. There are bone stock cars at autox events that have stickier tires than some actual race cars.

I do agree that it's more fun on harder tires though.

I don't care what road car you've modified, putting what are essentially the best quality tyres in existance on it is not realistic.

Today, I was trying to break 7 minutes at the 'Ring, in a fully modified Enzo, on sports hard. I didn't manage it (yet), but the car was far from undrivable.

The same car on sports soft is easy to drive. On race hards it's a doddle. On race softs it would be a joke... and that's a road car that has 900bhp, weighs around 1000kg and has zero downforce.

 

[freedomweasel]

I hate threads like this. The whole argument is false. People always equate less grip to increased realism, but not only that they equate it to increased challenge.
...
You can debate realism with some justification. But equating grip levels to skill levels is stupid. You still have to beat the other guy.

Realism claims are debatable. Skill isn't. If I can get 1.30 lap time with sport hards, and you can only manage that time, in the same car, with sport softs, that means I have more "skill" than you. It is harder (ie more challenge) to get fast times in slower cars, or harder tires, there isn't really any argument you can make against that.

I don't care what road car you've modified, putting what are essentially the best quality tyres in existance on it is not realistic.

To play devil's advocate, if a new race series was to spring up tomorrow which had heavily modified road cars with insanely sticky tires from LMPs or F1 or something, (ie nothing you can buy off the shelf,) would it become acceptable to you to use race softs on road cars in the game? Note, acceptable, as you seem like you wouldn't do it either way for fun/challenge reasons.

 

[Stotty]

You can debate realism with some justification. But equating grip levels to skill levels is stupid. You still have to beat the other guy.[

Sorry, but that's not true.

If you follow the WRS you'll find that the gaps between divisions are biggest as power increase and/or grip decreases. The more skilled drivers are disproportionally faster as the car becomes harder to drive.

 

[NFSCARBON1]

You're right. I'm sorry for using the term "motor sport enthusiasts". As shown below, I am retracting that statement.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you are like a hockey fan who has no desire to play hockey for them self. You enjoy observing the sport but are not working to increase your personal ability to participate in the sport.

.

If I had the oppurtunity I would love to become a professional race driver, but I don't have the money to get onto the first rung of the ladder, (or the time at the moment with school exams etc). So I'm more like a hockey fan with balance issues, I really want to take part, but I can't.

 

[Stotty]

You can debate realism with some justification. But equating grip levels to skill levels is stupid. You still have to beat the other guy.[

Sorry, but that's not true.

If you follow the WRS you'll find that the gaps between divisions are biggest as power increase and/or grip decreases. The more skilled drivers are disproportionally faster as the car becomes harder to drive.

To play devil's advocate, if a new race series was to spring up tomorrow which had heavily modified road cars with insanely sticky tires from LMPs or F1 or something, (ie nothing you can buy off the shelf,) would it become acceptable to you to use race softs on road cars in the game? Note, acceptable, as you seem like you wouldn't do it either way for fun/challenge reasons.

I had some great races in GT5P in the 750pp races at Suzi in tuned Vettes and Vipers, so I'm not completely against race softs... it's just people sticking them on all and sundry and then claiming that it's realistic pisses me off!

If the series you mentioned above was replicated on here as a race series I'd give it a test... if I liked it I'd enter, but in all liklihood it's probably not something I'd be intersted in... I don't see how being able to jump on the gas without any fear of losing traction is any different to using SRF or traction control or ASM.

 

[freedomweasel]

If I had the oppurtunity I would love to become a professional race driver, but I don't have the money to get onto the first rung of the ladder, (or the time at the moment with school exams etc). So I'm more like a hockey fan with balance issues, I really want to take part, but I can't.

Somewhat off topic, but look up your local car club and find some autox events. The ones around here cost 20 bucks and a car to drive, literally nothing else.

 

[Ecchi-BANZAII!!]

I buy Soft/Hard on all tires for all my cars that I'll drive in the future.
So far it's about 300-350 cars that are fully equipped in my list.

People that whine about R.Soft are people that still thinks Online has the same grip as Offline.

 

[Exorcet]

if I have a mind to go for a fast lap, why wouldn't I go for every advantage? It's just logic to me.

That is logic and no one has a problem with that.

The issue is that people like to use RS 99.99999999999% of the time, meaning that finding races where the tires are restricted is more difficult. There's no problem running racing soft. But they're pretty boring for some people. I avoid RS rooms a lot, because it's not as fun as rooms on lesser tires.

In short, it's common sense to run the best tire allowed, but it's hard to understand why people only want to use RS tires.

If racing was just about going fast then the only rooms you should online are X1 rooms with RS tires. Yet most rooms are running slower cars than the X1.

I had some great races in GT5P in the 750pp races at Suzi in tuned Vettes and Vipers, so I'm not completely against race softs... it's just people sticking them on all and sundry and then claiming that it's realistic pisses me off!

How is it not realistic? There's no law of physics preventing a certain compound for being placed on a certain car.

GT5's physics are limited, and the tires may give an unreasonable rise in grip on most unmodified cars, but super soft tires on a Daihatsu Midgit is completely possible.

People that whine about R.Soft are people that still thinks Online has the same grip as Offline.

Still haven't really noticed the difference, however I'm very familiar with online physics. The RS seem boring online with their high grip.

 

[Stotty]

People that whine about R.Soft are people that still thinks Online has the same grip as Offline.

Your sig says... 'If you use: Automatic gearbox, ABS or any of the other noob tools, you're a nobody'

And then you go and use race softs... irony is a wonderful thing ROFL

 

[JLawrence]

Maybe you missed it, but as with the example I gave at least twice earlier, there are a number of tires that match the grip level of the RS tires on here. No, they aren't going to be at your local Pep Boys, but if you ring up SASCO or some specialty company they aren't hard to find. The tires in this game honestly don't equal the grip of the "option tires" that are used in F1. You can look up the specs if you'd like verification. Like I keep saying, and i dearly wish that another racer would hop on this thread and back me up, the grip isn't the issue with the realism, it's the tire wear.

And, the cars that you have modded on this game really can't be called road cars so much any more. Once you take your Skyline, lop off 200 kilos, do some custom suspension, transmission, and drive train work, then add a couple hundred horsepower it does in most every way classify as a race car, therefore justifying racing tires. Just because it doesn't have the "proper" body work and decals doesn't make it any less a race car.

Racing with street tires is infinitely more unrealistic than running race tires.


PS. Stotty I do race a 63 Spitfire, and have a couple pics in my album on here.

 

[redreevos]

I was lucky enough to get to race in a room that was almost all GT Academy North America finalists. We raced on comfort soft tires all night. This was online, so I don't see the argument that Banzai makes about the online need for racing tires.

Could these guys have had faster laps on racing tires.. of course. Would it take the precision with steering input and throttle/brake control on racing tires as it does with comfort soft, no.

If you want to use the argument about racing soft being the fastest, thats why we should all use them.. then I would say you might as well turn SRF on too.

There is no shame in using racing softs. Sure, there are people that put things in their sig, and try and make people feel lower by bashing their "aids." Neither Stotty nor I are calling people that use racing softs as noobs, or shamed people. Sure there are people that will. We are just stating that we, would rather race on things other than racing softs, and gave our reasons why.

I have raced with some very fast drivers, and learned a lot from driving with them on less grippy tires. Far more than I have ever learned from using racing softs. And for the record.. Stotty is one of the fastest drivers we have here at GTPlanet.

I am not trying to tell anyone what tire they should use.. But I would suggest to many of you, that have been racing for a while, to try out the less grippy tires again. Try them on a track you know, with a car you know. It may suck at first. But just give it a chance. See what you think.

EDIT - Just read back a few pages. Here is a video by Stune, that he did very early on in GT5. A comparison of a track record at Tsukuba. He did this with racing medium tires, not racing soft.




direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fi1yBIpciIg

 

[Stotty]

Maybe you missed it, but as with the example I gave at least twice earlier, there are a number of tires that match the grip level of the RS tires on here. No, they aren't going to be at your local Pep Boys, but if you ring up SASCO or some specialty company they aren't hard to find. The tires in this game honestly don't equal the grip of the "option tires" that are used in F1. You can look up the specs if you'd like verification. Like I keep saying, and i dearly wish that another racer would hop on this thread and back me up, the grip isn't the issue with the realism, it's the tire wear.

Racing with street tires is infinitely more unrealistic than running race tires.


PS. Stotty I do race a 63 Spitfire, and have a couple pics in my album on here.

Good on you (said sincerly!) 👍

I'm not 100% sure in GT5, but in GT5P you could lap Suzuka much faster than the real life F1 lap record... I'm assuming it's similar in GT5... considering the speed of the F1 car seems realistic, this indicates either the tyres have more grip than in real life or the car has more downforce. Either way, I very much doubt you can buy that quality of tyre off the shelf... and in any case, even the most powerful road cars have almost endless grip on race hards, so why would you chose to use them?

 

[JLawrence]

I have yet to get around to running Formula 1 myself on here, so I can't say for certain, but I can say from experience that throwing the racing compounds on a road car does legitimately have the same feel as on here. Like I keep saying, unless you've had the chance to try it yourself, you wouldn't really be able to relate to what I'm saying.

 

[smrtb0mb]

Your sig says... 'If you use: Automatic gearbox, ABS or any of the other noob tools, you're a nobody'

And then you go and use race softs... irony is a wonderful thing ROFL

LOL!! Of course you don't need "noob tools" when using RS, they're the biggest aid in the whole game.

I think this sums up the hatred for RS in a nutshell.

 

[Stotty]

I have yet to get around to running Formula 1 myself on here, so I can't say for certain, but I can say from experience that throwing the racing compounds on a road car does legitimately have the same feel as on here. Like I keep saying, unless you've had the chance to try it yourself, you wouldn't really be able to relate to what I'm saying.

I've driven cars on slicks... single seaters (Formula Palmer Audi, '90's F2 car), Clio touring car, Caterhams... I know what they feel like.

A road car on race hards is as close to what you think you're trying to replicate as you're going to get... softs are complete overkill.

And on that note I'm off to bed

Oh, and if PSN ever comes back on line I'll send you a level 24 ticket and you can get yourself an F1 car to see for yourself

 

[JLawrence]

I dunno that we have been entirely on the same page this whole time Stotty, lol. I'm guessing you've been referring to a straight stock road car with slicks am I right? I have been going on about race prepped cars, which is usually what I do in game

 

[rexc]

I don't think people are really bashing those that want to put RS on their fully tuned Viper.

The issue people are raising is when you go online most of the rooms are RS, even if the BHP limit is 200 or 300 or so. Of course you are going to go faster if you stick RS on a close to stock Honda Integra, but its no longer giving you any realistic appreciation of what that car might be like to drive in real life, and that is also what the game is about for some people.

Those people that like driving their cars close to stock with the tyres they come with are reduced to private rooms, if they have enough similarly inclined people on their friends list.

When starting the game its natural for people to initally give themselves an advantage and go for grippier tyres, but then it just becomes a habit. I totally agree with redreevos. If you are now pretty comfortable racing on RS, give some sports or comfort tyres a good go on some appropriately matched cars. And by good go, I mean a few days or even a week, not just a couple of races.

You may really learn to appreciate the nuances in the handling of the various cars that over grippy tyres tend to obscure, and come to a broader understanding of what the real driving simulator can offer, other than just going fast.

Of course, if just going fast is what it is all about for you, then that is also fine.

 

[boredgunner]

Up for a challenge to prove there's too much grip? I just had a shot at it myself with the Epson NSX '08, Racing Softs of course, only achieving 1'54,971 and my Gold Standard trophy says I presumably know what I'm doing.

I can't come close to that time (1:50). There should be a trophy for this in arcade mode like with the GT-R! I only did 1:57.258 in a Super GT SC430, 1:56.547 in a CASTROL TOM's SUPRA '97, 1:55.735 in a RAYBRIG NSX '06, 1:55.694 in an NSX-R Prototype LM Race Car and 1:54.104 in a GT-R Concept LM Race Car limited to 500 HP. All on racing softs, no driving aids except ABS on 1.

 

[neil1280]

i used to use r/s but i find the game slightly boring when using r/s especially on an endurance race when you barely ever lose control, now i like driving far closer to the edge to keep me awake during the long races.

but when im racing a mate its racing softs, and some cars can only be controlled with r/s

any seaonal events only need comfort softs, anyone who uses racing tyres on the seasonals is a buttmunch

I should note, for those who said that r/softs give too much grip and is unrealistic, your incorrect, I have raced before with a ferarri f430 and a 2011 renaultsport megane, the grip difference is incredible over a road car

 

[Uncle Harry]

Does a road car have enough downforce to get a racing soft tyre up to working temperature in real life track conditions ?

Maybe this is the part not replicated well in GT5.

Remember Hammond from Top Gear driving a Williams F1 and could not get the tires up to temp so he was very slow and had zero grip.

 

[danjee]

the answer is "nothing"!

 

[Peter.]

I think some people find softs to have a bit unrealistically high amounts of grip, and/or because they make everything incredibly easy to drive as opposed to hards.

 

[Stotty]

I dunno that we have been entirely on the same page this whole time Stotty, lol. I'm guessing you've been referring to a straight stock road car with slicks am I right? I have been going on about race prepped cars, which is usually what I do in game

No, I do mean all modified road cars.

Personally, though, I think anything more than a few minor additions ruins most cars. Max tuning them just strips away any delicacy and ruins the overall balance of the car... which is why everyone feels the need to put super sticky tyres on them.

Almost without exception, I'm happy to stick with whatever tyres the car comes on and then add suspension and a LSD if needed... this gives enough options to trim away any understeer in the handling balance. If the car's too grippy I'll go down a tyre class.

I guess it's a different approach to the game... for me, it's not about outright speed. I'm more interested in being able to feel the finer details of how the car is reacting as I brake/turn/accelerate... to feel the subtle weight transfers.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Both slicks and SRF strip away 90% of the skill required to play the game.

I agree with your comments about SRF... but not R:S tyres (or slicks in general).

They make it easier to lap without spinning out but they DON'T improve your racing skill.

In a field of identically-shod drivers you still need skill and speed to win - and if everyone's running the same compound then poor drivers will lose out.

I keep hearing "you can't spin out on race-soft tyres". Sure you can, you're just not pushing had enough. Even R:S have their limit, if you're not close to that limit then you're not close to the fastest potential lap time.