What exactly is so shameful about using Racing Soft tires?

[Greycap]

Just look at the footwork on the pedals for those race car's with soft or "sprint" tires,that tells the whole story on why the grip levels of GT5's racing softs are too grippy.

I do think the game offers too much grip.

People dislike racing softs as they provide absurd and unrealistic levels of grip relative to even the very best racing slicks available IRL...

It gives an absurd amount of grip because you can floor it so much without too much worry.Not so IRL.

Quoting myself from two pages back.

The GT500 lap record for Suzuka is 1'49.842, set by Daisuke Ito in the ARTA NSX in 2007. I'd like to see someone beating that time comfortably with any Super GT in the game, no matter which tyre compound, before we can talk about tyres having unrealistically much grip.

Up for a challenge to prove there's too much grip? I just had a shot at it myself with the Epson NSX '08, Racing Softs of course, only achieving 1'54,971 and my Gold Standard trophy says I presumably know what I'm doing.

 

[spruce]

- it only gives you an absurd amount of grip because you can not make the most of the tires
- you have never used slicks in real life so you would not know
- since when was autocross the benchmark?
- street tires hardly work on 700hp+ appilications



-when you rely on aids, i makes you better than you really are and that is shameful.

Some of us enjoy playing this game the way we want to play
it and if that involves having soft tyres and every driving aid turned
up to the max then who are you to say its shameful.
get a life and stay in your rooms with all the driving aids off and
we will will have a great time in our rooms with all the aids on.
simple

 

[Nastradamus87]

There are two types of people who play GT5: motor sport enthusiasts and gamers.

Motor sort enthusiasts are the ones who use $300 Logitech G27 racing wheels, build cockpits using real car seats, read books on racing technique, follow real life racing, actually race in real life, etc. These people play Gran Turismo 5 the Real Driving Simulator for the purpose of simulating real life racing. To accomplish this they must use tires that provide realistic levels of grip (because cars behave very differently with racing soft tires than they do with comfort soft tires), hence why this thread exists:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&page=6#post4729193
To motor sport enthusiasts, going faster is not about adding more mods and better tires, it's about driving skills, and GT5 is a tool they use to improve their driving skills.

Gamer's, on the other hand, have no special interest in real life racing and learning skills that are translatable to real life racing. As many posters in this thread have expressed, their primary objective is to go faster - even at the expense of realism.

Motor sport enthusiasts will always insist on using realistic tires to preserve realism; Gamer's will not understand using anything but tires that give them the lowest lap time (racing soft).

/THREAD

 

[GT_Die_Hard]

Sounds Fun!!!! Maybe we can do a three tire race just for kicks. We all could come out of it with great races.

Thats great! Should we make a room online as PSN is up again? I'd really like to see how who's best on those 3 tire sets...

 

[RUFFSTUFF]

There are two types of people who play GT5: motor sport enthusiasts and gamers.

Motor sort enthusiasts are the ones who use $300 Logitech G27 racing wheels, build cockpits using real car seats, read books on racing technique, follow real life racing, actually race in real life, etc. These people play Gran Turismo 5 the Real Driving Simulator for the purpose of simulating real life racing. To accomplish this they must use tires that provide realistic levels of grip (because cars behave very differently with racing soft tires than they do with comfort soft tires), hence why this thread exists:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&page=6#post4729193
To motor sport enthusiasts, going faster is not about adding more mods and better tires, it's about driving skills, and GT5 is a tool they use to improve their driving skills.

Gamer's, on the other hand, have no special interest in real life racing and learning skills that are translatable to real life racing. As many posters in this thread have expressed, their primary objective is to go faster - even at the expense of realism.

Motor sport enthusiasts will always insist on using realistic tires to preserve realism; Gamer's will not understand using anything but tires that give them the lowest lap time (racing soft).

/THREAD

It's a $60 video game... the motor sport enthusiasts as described above need to take a sip from a cup of reality. Play the game and have fun, otherwise, end up like those other damaged individuals who think iracing is the real deal.

 

[hightyme]

Motor sport enthusiasts will always insist on using realistic tires to preserve realism; Gamer's will not understand using anything but tires that give them the lowest lap time (racing soft).

/THREAD

Realism?!?... Work hard for that dream car or get into racing in real life. Motor enthusiast or not, were are playing "a video game", were all gamers. (I'd imagine anyone playing GT5 is in some degree, a motor enthusiast)

 

[NFSCARBON1]

There are two types of people who play GT5: motor sport enthusiasts and gamers.

Motor sort enthusiasts are the ones who use $300 Logitech G27 racing wheels, build cockpits using real car seats, read books on racing technique, follow real life racing, actually race in real life, etc. These people play Gran Turismo 5 the Real Driving Simulator for the purpose of simulating real life racing. To accomplish this they must use tires that provide realistic levels of grip (because cars behave very differently with racing soft tires than they do with comfort soft tires), hence why this thread exists:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&page=6#post4729193
To motor sport enthusiasts, going faster is not about adding more mods and better tires, it's about driving skills, and GT5 is a tool they use to improve their driving skills.

Gamer's, on the other hand, have no special interest in real life racing and learning skills that are translatable to real life racing. As many posters in this thread have expressed, their primary objective is to go faster - even at the expense of realism.

Motor sport enthusiasts will always insist on using realistic tires to preserve realism; Gamer's will not understand using anything but tires that give them the lowest lap time (racing soft).

/THREAD

I follow Formula 1 and Moto Gp, watch the BTCC and WTCC, enjoy driving Go Karts, I like hearing about how drivers take corners faster and I have loads of motorsport and car related memorobila and replica's. But I enjoy using Racing Softs on the cars I drive the most and I use a DS3. So what am I?

 

[gl3nb0ts]

I follow Formula 1 and Moto Gp, watch the BTCC and WTCC, enjoy driving Go Karts, I like hearing about how drivers take corners faster and I have loads of motorsport and car related memorobila and replica's. But I enjoy using Racing Softs on the cars I drive the most and I use a DS3. So what am I?

You are similar to me in that aspect. According to this logic, though, we simply don't exist.

I think "realism" is a generous term. I can only choose between Hard, Intermediate, Rain, or Soft for each level of tire. I really doubt I'd be limited to only that in real life.

To me GT5 is a game that goes beyond being a game, but falls short (comically short in some instances) of being a driving simulator. So I frankly never feel ashamed to use the occasional aid or soft tire, and no one should. And if you do feel shame about that...

 

[MoLiEG]

You are similar to me in that aspect. According to this logic, though, we simply don't exist.

I think "realism" is a generous term. I can only choose between Hard, Intermediate, Rain, or Soft for each level of tire. I really doubt I'd be limited to only that in real life.

To me GT5 is a game that goes beyond being a game, but falls short (comically short in some instances) of being a driving simulator. So I frankly never feel ashamed to use the occasional aid or soft tire, and no one should. And if you do feel shame about that...

I'm with you guys I love motorsports as well... but for me GT5 is a game

 

[NFSCARBON1]

You are similar to me in that aspect. According to this logic, though, we simply don't exist.

I think "realism" is a generous term. I can only choose between Hard, Intermediate, Rain, or Soft for each level of tire. I really doubt I'd be limited to only that in real life.

To me GT5 is a game that goes beyond being a game, but falls short (comically short in some instances) of being a driving simulator. So I frankly never feel ashamed to use the occasional aid or soft tire, and no one should. And if you do feel shame about that...

I tend to avoid the driving aids simply because I don't like using them, but I don't think anyone should feel ashamed for using them. Also, I find people who complain about people using RS tyres annoying. Do they go outside and moan because people are using Pirelli P-Zero's on their cars instead of Michelin energy savers?

 

[bass264]

I have no problem at all if people want to use Racing Softs. However, I try to avoid using them at all costs for two reasons:

1) They're too expensive.

I have 100 cars in my favorites that I love using. But Racing Softs cost 36,000 Cr. each.

100 X 36,000 = 3,600,000 Cr.

No...just no. Not to mention there are other cars that I would enjoy using but they're not in my favorites, so that's more money out of my pocket. Plus, it's annoying leaving a lobby to buy Racing Softs to be competitive.

2) They give unrealistic amounts of grip in some cases.

If you have a Dodge Viper tuned to the max or some other powerful car, then yeah, you most likely need Racing Softs to control it. But putting them on mildly powered cars is too much IMO.

But again, have no problem with people who want to use these tires for whatever reason. To each his own.

I actually have racing softs on over 100 racing cars I have, grinding always pays off.

 

[Bobby-Vegas]

I follow Formula 1 and Moto Gp, watch the BTCC and WTCC, enjoy driving Go Karts, I like hearing about how drivers take corners faster and I have loads of motorsport and car related memorobila and replica's. But I enjoy using Racing Softs on the cars I drive the most and I use a DS3. So what am I?

You are like me

 

[GTWelsh]

Try comfort softs, you get a fair ammount of grip from those ROAD LEGAL bad boys, or will that make you all feel ill at the thought ?

But seriously, if you want to run a time trial comp, then RS is kinda the tire to have.

If you are running a Honda S2000 for example comp I suggest sports tires, because cars become dead with to much grip, you may aswell be driving any car they all feel the same.

If you want GT5 to be realistic, then buy any stock road car, use comfort softs, and have a good bash at it

You will find the Lambo SV will be very hard to drive, want to know why? It probably is IRL at the speed your going


Also in reply at the posts above... People that race for realism find that fun, it doesnt damage anyone or anything, it is just "their cup of tea" if you like taking a fully tuned Zonda R online and beating everyone with your "anti skid" thing on, then that's fine, but I prefer to take a more realistic approch and get my kicks from driving the car well, not just winning, I play NFS or burnout for those style of thrills.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

There are two types of people who play GT5: motor sport enthusiasts and gamers.

Motor sort enthusiasts are the ones who use $300 Logitech G27 racing wheels, build cockpits using real car seats, read books on racing technique, follow real life racing, actually race in real life, etc. These people play Gran Turismo 5 the Real Driving Simulator for the purpose of simulating real life racing. To accomplish this they must use tires that provide realistic levels of grip (because cars behave very differently with racing soft tires than they do with comfort soft tires), hence why this thread exists:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&page=6#post4729193
To motor sport enthusiasts, going faster is not about adding more mods and better tires, it's about driving skills, and GT5 is a tool they use to improve their driving skills.

Gamer's, on the other hand, have no special interest in real life racing and learning skills that are translatable to real life racing. As many posters in this thread have expressed, their primary objective is to go faster - even at the expense of realism.

Motor sport enthusiasts will always insist on using realistic tires to preserve realism; Gamer's will not understand using anything but tires that give them the lowest lap time (racing soft).

/THREAD

What? According to you, I'm not a "motorsport enthusiast" because I don't use a wheel I can't afford or race because I can't afford it either? We are ALL gamers. Period. Otherwise, we wouldn't play this video game called Gran Turismo 5. You should step outside and realize not everyone has endless amounts of money, because it seems you do with this post. No "/thread" here.

 

[GTWelsh]

DFGT isn't that expensive. At all.

If you want one you will find a way, money isn't a huge barrier, although some people won't have a wheel for that reason, I imagine most just don't feel like it's worth it.

There are 2 types of people here, People who just want to have fun, and people that want to test themselves.

In my opinion having general fun, gets old, testing yourself never does, espeshally online against like-minded people.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

DFGT isn't that expensive. At all.

If you want one you will find a way, money isn't a huge barrier, although some people won't have a wheel for that reason, I imagine most just don't feel like it's worth it.

There are 2 types of people here, People who just want to have fun, and people that want to test themselves.

In my opinion having general fun, gets old, testing yourself never does, espeshally online against like-minded people.

You're talking about a used DFGT in the United States.
http://listado.mercadolibre.com.co/driving force gt (Page in Spanish)

That price of $630,000 is more than 300 dollars. The $380,000 or so is almost 200 dollars. Things are expensive here.

 

[Jav]

There are two types of people who play GT5: motor sport enthusiasts and gamers.

Up to this point I'm with you.

Motor sort enthusiasts are the ones who use $300 Logitech G27 racing wheels, build cockpits using real car seats, read books on racing technique, follow real life racing, actually race in real life, etc. These people play Gran Turismo 5 the Real Driving Simulator for the purpose of simulating real life racing. To accomplish this they must use tires that provide realistic levels of grip (because cars behave very differently with racing soft tires than they do with comfort soft tires), hence why this thread exists:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&page=6#post4729193
To motor sport enthusiasts, going faster is not about adding more mods and better tires, it's about driving skills, and GT5 is a tool they use to improve their driving skills.

Gamer's, on the other hand, have no special interest in real life racing and learning skills that are translatable to real life racing. As many posters in this thread have expressed, their primary objective is to go faster - even at the expense of realism.

Motor sport enthusiasts will always insist on using realistic tires to preserve realism; Gamer's will not understand using anything but tires that give them the lowest lap time (racing soft).

/THREAD

All the rest is pure BS.

 

[boredgunner]

Quoting myself from two pages back.

Up for a challenge to prove there's too much grip? I just had a shot at it myself with the Epson NSX '08, Racing Softs of course, only achieving 1'54,971 and my Gold Standard trophy says I presumably know what I'm doing.

Sounds like a fun challenge. I'll give it a go in a RAYBRIG NSX '06, stock except for racing soft tires.

 

[watermelon punch]

You are like me

There's quite a few of us similar.
We're often just more quiet. (My bf is this, and he doesn't post here at all, just reads.)

I'm with you guys I love motorsports as well... but for me GT5 is a game

Sometimes it seems that if you say something like this to some people, it's like you're talking about modern fencing sport & technology topics, to a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism at a Renaissance Fair.

Some people play gt5 like an RPG.

That's not about right or wrong, it's personal choice.

But many who do, do not even know it. They just assume everyone else is playing the same way, & can't imagine why anyone wouldn't.
While people who don't play that way, just don't understand what these people are talking about... or why they care about the things they do.
Each side thinks the other is bonkers.

Sounds like a fun challenge. I'll give it a go in a RAYBRIG NSX '06, stock except for racing soft tires.

Please report your findings.
I've found greycap's arguments the most compelling. And I think this topic deserves more research in the name of fun.

 

[Nastradamus87]

I follow Formula 1 and Moto Gp, watch the BTCC and WTCC, enjoy driving Go Karts, I like hearing about how drivers take corners faster and I have loads of motorsport and car related memorobila and replica's. But I enjoy using Racing Softs on the cars I drive the most and I use a DS3. So what am I?

You're right. I'm sorry for using the term "motor sport enthusiasts". As shown below, I am retracting that statement.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you are like a hockey fan who has no desire to play hockey for them self. You enjoy observing the sport but are not working to increase your personal ability to participate in the sport.

As I have described below, I meant racing purist, not motor sport enthusiast. There are many people who enjoy observing motor sports but do not have the desire to improve their personal driving ability.

There are 2 types of people here, People who just want to have fun, and people that want to test themselves.

In my opinion having general fun, gets old, testing yourself never does, espeshally online against like-minded people.

Wow, sorry for pushing so many peoples buttons. I don't have time to address each message individual so I will GENERALIZE once again for brevity.

Please learn to read between the line. Obviously the two types of players I described are not always mutually exclusive; many players are part motor sport enthusiast and part gamer. This fact is obvious to everyone and you pointing it is meaningless. I was simply describing the two EXTREME ends of the player spectrum, as GTWelsh did in the post above.

When I said motor sport enthusiast what I actually meant was racing purist. At the time of writing my last message I didn't notice that while (almost) all racing purists are motor sport enthusiasts not all motor sport enthusiasts areracing purists. I'm sorry to all the non-racing-purist motor sport enthusiasts that I offended.

Racing purists play GT5 to test themselves and improve their racing skills. Racing purists are the ones who will never racing using racings softs.

Why so many people are angered by my post is confusing to me. It should be clear to everyone that only a racing purist would be bothered by people who race using unrealistic tires and a person who plays with unrealistic tires is most likely not a racing purist who is working to increase their real life driving ability. I didn't put either side down; I just wanted to explain to people who only play GT5 as a game that there are many people - right or wrong - who consider GT5 to be more than a mere video game.

OFF TOPIC:
Also, I'm not claiming that GT5 is a perfect reflection of reality and racing in GT5 is exactly like racing in real life. However, it is trying it's best to be a simulation of reality. Sometimes it does a decent job, other times it does not. Regardless, some people use GT5 to practice driving techniques. Who are you to tell them they are wrong and there is absolutely no skills to be learned in playing GT5.

 

[Nastradamus87]

Up to this point I'm with you.

All the rest is pure BS.

Replace "motor sport enthusiast" with "driving purist", read my previous post, then tell me WHY everything I wrote is pure BS.

Players who refuse to using racing soft tires and ridicule those who do probably treat GT5 as a simulator of real life racing - whether they are correct or not is irrelevant. Players who only want to use racing soft tires merely so they can go faster probably don't play GT5 to hone their driving skills and learn racing theory. Am I wrong about this?

 

[SuperGT500]

I honestly don't see why people are arguing between what 'Real racing drivers' and 'Gamers' will use when it comes to tyres. Watch any race, and each one has a set of racing softs, from Formula 1 to Weekend race days (if they are able to afford it) So saying that Real racers don't use racing soft tyres, makes you look narrow minded.

Racing soft tyres are used for short sprints. Formula 1 is notorious for this. 15 laps to go, the driver is down by 30 seconds, more than likely they will fit racing softs rather than hards so that he can catch up to the leaders. Its part of a strategy. They don't make you a bad driver, they give a competitive edge and using them does not make you any less of a driver than that of a driver that uses racing hards.

Formula isn't the only motor sport to do this, but is the greatest example I can think of. using them does not make you shameful at all OP, it gives you a competitive advantage. I use them, depending on the length of the race and my pitting strategy, but it does not make me shameful or any less of a driver.

 

[ImprezaAddict]

Why so many people are angered by my post is confusing to me.

To me, it was simply because your post's message to me was that everyone who loves GT5/cars/racing/anything auto-related had the money to buy a wheel and even race in real life. And that's not the case.

I also believe this thread shouldn't be taken so seriously itself, because it's just a game after all. It's just the comments in it that I think are somewhat controversial.

 

[Nastradamus87]

I honestly don't see why people are arguing between what 'Real racing drivers' and 'Gamers' will use when it comes to tyres. Watch any race, and each one has a set of racing softs, from Formula 1 to Weekend race days (if they are able to afford it) So saying that Real racers don't use racing soft tyres, makes you look narrow minded.

Racing soft tyres are used for short sprints. Formula 1 is notorious for this. 15 laps to go, the driver is down by 30 seconds, more than likely they will fit racing softs rather than hards so that he can catch up to the leaders. Its part of a strategy. They don't make you a bad driver, they give a competitive edge and using them does not make you any less of a driver than that of a driver that uses racing hards.

Formula isn't the only motor sport to do this, but is the greatest example I can think of. using them does not make you shameful at all OP, it gives you a competitive advantage. I use them, depending on the length of the race and my pitting strategy, but it does not make me shameful or any less of a driver.

Yea i can't see how a wheel user can have consistent fun on RS ..
How much fun is holding the gas and turning? LOTS, for about 30 seconds.
The experience comes to life when you use relevant and/or appropriate tyres for the situation. For 2 weeks the only online clean races i found were on RS, i then went back to Sports tyres and realised you can't just floor the gas before your pointed straight in a 550hp Ferrari F40. Quite a shock after coming from RS lol.

I'm not a tire expert, but it is my understand from reading the extensive threads on this site about tires in GT5 that racing soft tires provide lateral acceleration that is far above any tires used in any racing league and racing soft tires do not wear out faster than racing hard tires.

Also, the above post is what many players who don't like using racing soft tires believe, and I agree with it to an extent. I don't care what tires other people use, but it is true that it takes much less effort/skill to drive using racing softs compared to racing hards or sports tires.

 

[Nastradamus87]

To me, it was simply because your post's message to me was that everyone who loves GT5/cars/racing/anything auto-related had the money to buy a wheel and even race in real life. And that's not the case.

I also believe this thread shouldn't be taken so seriously itself, because it's just a game after all. It's just the comments in it that I think are somewhat controversial.

Sorry for offending you. I didn't mean that you have to do/have all those things to be a fan of racing. All other things being equal ,those are simply things that you can use to identify a player who is more interested in racing than a mere video game fan. In other words, a player who has an expensive wheel is probably very interested in racing, but a player who is very interested in racing does not necessarily have an expensive wheel. Not everyone can afford an expensive accessory for GT5, which is fine.

 

[JLawrence]

Racing purists play GT5 to test themselves and improve their racing skills. Racing purists are the ones who will never racing using racings softs.

Brother, I am a racing purist. I have multiple race cars sitting in my garage, and I would switch to the Pirelli P Zero Racing Slick, in a heart beat, which as I think someone in this thread already mentioned has equal if not more grip than the RS tires in the game. They're just not legal in the group I run with.

I don't care what tires other people use, but it is true that it takes much less effort/skill to drive using racing softs compared to racing hards or sports tires.

That is also a false statement. It takes just as much skill to get the full potential out of those tires as any other. I have a challenge for you, get a Cobra 427, throw on a set of RS tires, and run around Laguna Seca a few times and tell me what times you get. (I would highly suggest some suspension tweaking as well)

 

[watermelon punch]

Replace "motor sport enthusiast" with "driving purist", my previous post, then tell me WHY everything I wrote is pure BS.

Players who refuse to using racing soft tires and ridicule those who do probably treat GT5 as a simulator of real life racing. Players who only want to use racing soft tires probably don't play GT5 to hone their driving skills and learn racing theory. Am I wrong about this?

I don't know if you're wrong. I don't know if you're right.

I don't think right or wrong comes into this.

I think the problem is, to some people, you probably sound a bit crazy.

This might be what some people are seeing (when they read your posts):

"I'm a real race car driver because I play a video game in XYZ way."

I recognize that you're probably not delusional. You're just playing GT5 in an RPG style.

That's your business.

But when you make it sound like it's exactly like real life. And that's what makes your way the right way. And anyone who doesn't must not be this or that... Sorry, it sounds kooky. And it's far from accurate. You play the game the way you like because you want to. There's no real life justification to prove your opinion is right. And none necessary either.

I think most people (though not all) who play this game are probably, at least to some degree, interested in motor sports, either driving themselves or as a spectator. I don't think that necessarily dictates to them how they play the game.

Indeed, I think the more someone races in real life, the less need they have to make GT5 "feel real" to them. They get that in real life, after all. They don't need to find that in a game. They don't need a simulation! They experience the real thing.

and ridicule those who do

Are you defending people ridiculing each other?

If you really feel the desire to ridicule people... it's not against the forum rules to be rude... But don't expect people to pat you on the back for it.
If you ridicule someone, it's very likely they won't love you. LOL

 

[watermelon punch]

That is also a false statement. It takes just as much skill to get the full potential out of those tires as any other. I have a challenge for you, get a Cobra 427, throw on a set of RS tires, and run around Laguna Seca a few times and tell me what times you get. (I would highly suggest some suspension tweaking as well)

I would like to see the results of more of this kind of testing.

The only problem is if you compare tire wear to real life, in a many-lap time trial. Soft tires (of any type I think) don't wear out like they should in GT5 for some reason. I think people confuse this with them being unrealistic grip. It's not unrealistic grip for maybe the 1st 10-15 laps. But after 50 laps at Laguna Seca, it might be unrealistic grip... not because racing tires are unrealistic grip, but because PD messed up the tire wear in GT5... and in real life, you'd be forced into the pits for a tire change long before the 50th lap.

But most people who complain about racing soft tires, actually say the wear is not unrealistic, they say the racing tire itself is unrealistic. And they ridicule people who use any slicks, period. Maybe they just don't know what they mean, or just don't know how to describe what they mean in words. I don't know.

But I see the problem between sports hard & sports soft... It's not specific to racing soft, or all racing tires. If you're going to shun using racing softs, then I think you need to shun sports soft, and comfort soft... because the wear is equally not right.

 

[SuperGT500]

I agree, in Gran Turismo 4, tyre wear was more noticeable on the softer tyres than they were on the racing medium or hard tyres. this means that choosing the right tyres for the right parts of the race were very important. As I have said in the previous post, it all comes down to strategy but since it has now been mentioned, Polyphony do need to adjust the use of racing soft tyres to better suit reality. Last time I checked, they did not last as long as racing hard tyres did!

 

[seadog777]

I haven't read the whole topic.... so forgive me if I'm duplicating, but.... there's nothing shameful about using racing softs... ask Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna, Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton. They do it all the time.... and they should know.