What is real? (Normal car, N & S tire testing data)

[kensei]

What tire on a normal car will provide the most realistic lap times? How much faster is so and so tire than real life? What is the gap between tire A and tire B?

Method
Anyone can make any claim they want. I'm more interested in documentation and observation. The problem with most test of this nature that I have seen for the GT series is that whoever is doing them doesn't back up their conclusions with any fact, thus the test is useless.

My method for these times is as follows;
-I drove all laps.
-I used arcade cars only.
-I did each car through all 6 sets of tires on each circuit in one sitting.
-I used a DFP, with MT and all aids OFF for each car.
-I drove 2 laps on each tire on the Nordschleife and 5 laps one each tire at Tsukuba
-I was not trying for ultimate hotlaps, rather I was focusing on being steady and driving a conservative line that would be repeatable through all 6 sets of tires. Do not look at these times as ultimate fastest times, they aren't...rather they are comparable between themselves in each cars lap times.
-I started with N1s and finished with S3s.
-I tried to pick a spread of normal cars through different drive trains and power to weight ratios.
-Each car was tuned to it's real life specs. Meaning power (PS) and weight (KG) were dialed it to get as close as I could to the real life numbers. I gathered the specs from the tables in the back of Evo magazine (Issue 75, January 2005). Where I could not find specs for a given car there I used the manufacturer's website to find them. All specs were gathered in one or the other way, most from Evo magazine.
-Since Evo magazine and most manufacturer websites list BHP I needed to convert that number back to PS. I used this site to convert all values. I would then have to dial in the car's power and weight to the closet values I could.

Lap Times
Nurburgring Nordschleife
All real life laptimes are taken from here, unless noted.

Nissan Skyline R34 V-Spec II Nur '02
Actual Spec: 276hp (279.83ps)/1560kg, GT4 adjustment: -18% (279ps)/0% (1560kg) - AWD
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 8'46.360 N2: 8'31.359 N3: 8'21.681
S1: 8'13.904 S2: 8'08.147 S3: 8'03.417

BMW M5 '05
Actual Spec: 507hp (514.04ps)/1715kg, GT4 adjustment: +1% (513ps)/0% (1715kg) - FR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 8'17.582 N2: 8'03.673 N3: 7'46.055
S1: 7'36.454 S2: 7'30.172 S3: 7'24.787

BMW M3 '04
Actual Spec: 338hp (342.69ps)/1570kg, GT4 adjustment: 0% (338ps)/0% (1570kg) - FR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 8'34.508 N2: 8'19.884 N3: 8'06.593
S1: 8'01.731 S2: 7'52.357 S3: 7'48.198

BMW M3 CSL '03
Actual Spec: 355hp (359.93ps)/1385kg, GT4 adjustment: 0% (359ps)/0% (1385kg) - FR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 8'23.874 N2: 8'03.014 N3: 7'48.741
S1: 7'40.293 S2: 7'36.825 S3: 7'32.157

Lotus Elise 111r '04
Actual Spec: 189hp (191.63ps)/860kg, GT4 adjustment: 0% (192ps)/0% (860kg) - MR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 8'51.713 N2: 8'32.373 N3: 8'18.734
S1: 8'08.981 S2: 8'02.281 S3: 7'54.371

VW GTI '05
Actual Spec: 197hp (199.74ps)/1328kg, GT4 adjustment: -1% (200ps)/0% (1336kg) - AWD
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 9'18.209 N2: 9'01.753 N3: 8'51.544
S1: 8'42.407 S2: 8'36.368 S3: 8'30.646

Ruf CTR '87
Actual Spec: 469hp (475.51ps)/1010kg*, GT4 adjustment: +1% (473ps)/-10% (1035kg) - RR
Real life laptime: around 8 minutes** or around 8'20***
N1: 8'35.211 N2: 8'19.106 N3: 8'00.274
S1: 7'43.368 S2: 7'32.842 S3: 7'26.913
* Weight taken by subtracting 200kg from the Porsche model base, '87 Carerra 911
** Lap time from an email reply from Ruf.
*** Timed by myself with a stopwatch while watching the clips of Stefan Roser lapping the CTR in the "faszination" video. Remember he never had a clean track ahead of him and the edits of the film could be dropping/adding time

Ruf CTR2 '96
Actual Spec: 520hp (527.22ps)/1380kg, GT4 adjustment: +1% (526ps)/0% (1380kg) - AWD
Real life laptime: "...about 7m 50s by Roser in 1998**
N1: 8'22.992 N2: 8'09.821 N3: 7'52.635
S1: 7'38.589 S2: 7'30.956 S3: 7'27.126
** Lap time from an email reply from Ruf.

Ruf RGT '00
Actual Spec: 395hp (400.49ps)/1330kg, GT4 adjustment: +4% (399ps)/0% (1330kg) - RR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 8'20.007 N2: 8'00.588 N3: 7'52.700
S1: 7'40.508 S2: 7'35.192 S3: 7'28.075


Tsukuba Circuit
All real life laptimes are taken from here, unless noted.

Nissan Skyline R34 V-Spec II Nur '02
Actual Spec: 276hp (279.83ps)/1560kg, GT4 adjustment: -18% (279ps)/0% (1560kg) - AWD
Real life laptime: 1'06.000
N1: 1'09.689 N2: 1'07.896 N3: 1'06.243
S1: 1'04.967 S2: 1'04.638 S3: 1'03.342

Nissan 350z version S (Z33) '02
Actual Spec: 276hp (279.83ps)/1525kg, GT4 adjustment: +2% (279ps)/+6% (1526kg) - FR
Real life laptime: 1'09.72
N1: 1'10.164 N2: 1'07.927 N3: 1'06.448
S1: 1'04.860 S2: 1'03.643 S3: 1'02.711

Ruf RGT '00
Actual Spec: 395hp (400.49ps)/1330kg, GT4 adjustment: +4% (399ps)/0% (1330kg) - RR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 1'05.580 N2: 1'03.486 N3: 1'02.551
S1: 1'01.109 S2: 1'00.420 S3: 59.777

Ruf CTR '87
Actual Spec: 469hp (475.51ps)/1010kg*, GT4 adjustment: +1% (473ps)/-10% (1035kg) - RR
Real life laptime: 1'07.67
N1: 1'08.627 N2: 1'04.802 N3: 1'02.661
S1: 1'00.883 S2: 59.285 S3: 57.777
* Weight taken by subtracting 200kg from the Porsche model base, '87 Carerra 911

Subaru Imprezza WRX STI (Spec C) '03
Actual Spec: 335hp (339.65ps)/1380kg, GT4 adjustment: +4% (339ps)/+1% (1383kg) - AWD
Real life laptime: 1'04.49
N1: 1'08.487 N2: 1'06.714 N3: 1'04.389
S1: 1'03.481 S2: 1'02.805 S3: 1'00.931

VW GTI '05
Actual Spec: 197hp (199.74ps)/1328kg, GT4 adjustment: -1% (200ps)/0% (1336kg) - FF
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 1'13.916 N2: 1'11.421 N3: 1'09.883
S1: 1'08.742 S2: 1'08.217 S3: 1'07.758

Honda Civic Type-R '04
Actual Spec: 197hp (199.74ps)/1204kg, GT4 adjustment: -8% (200ps)/+1% (1201kg) - FF
Real life laptime: around 1'10
N1: 1'14.547 N2: 1'11.600 N3: 1'09.935
S1: 1'09.224 S2: 1'08.407 S3: 1'07.116

Mini Cooper S '02
Actual Spec: 161hp (163.24ps)/1140kg, GT4 adjustment: +1% (163ps)/+2% (1142kg) - FF
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 1'15.345 N2: 1'12.825 N3: 1'11.475
S1: 1'09.896 S2: 1'09.411 S3: 1'08.746

BMW M3 '04
Actual Spec: 338hp (342.69ps)/1570kg, GT4 adjustment: 0% (338ps)/0% (1570kg) - FR
Real life laptime: 1'08.48
N1: 1'08.609 N2: 1'06.307 N3: 1'05.018
S1: 1'03.409 S2: 1'02.140 S3: 1'01.377

BMW M3 CSL '03
Actual Spec: 355hp (359.93ps)/1385kg, GT4 adjustment: 0% (359ps)/0% (1385kg) - FR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 1'06.282 N2: 1'04.688 N3: 1'02.324
S1: 1'01.772 S2: 1'00.832 S3: 59.971

Lotus Elise 111r '04
Actual Spec: 189hp (191.63ps)/860kg, GT4 adjustment: 0% (192ps)/0% (860kg) - MR
Real life laptime: ?
N1: 1'08.871 N2: 1'06.629 N3: 1'05.185
S1: 1'04.211 S2: 1'03.565 S3: 1'02.556


Conclusion
So what is the most realistic tire for a normal car? It's hard to set a general rule but if you must I'd say N2s. However it seems to differ form car to car between N2s and N3s. It is interesting to point out that of all my laps on the Nordschleife the second lap was always faster. But on Tsukuba it was usually my 2nd or 3rd lap (out of 5) that was the fastest. N1 tires are generally difficult to drive fast and consistent with, they make almost any car understeer and you need to watch your brake zones (brake early). N2 tires are still difficult to drive consistent and fast yet they offer, what I consider, a realistic grip. N3 tires feel about the same as N2s but they offer more "bite" on turn in and braking is easier to judge.

S tires are very unrealistic. I did find that as a general rule of thumb S1s make almost any car easy to drive and very neutral. Also the time gaps between S1, S2, S3 are not as large (in general) as the N tires. The major change is durability for GT Mode (sim) races. For realistic hotlapping they are not of much use.

 

[Jedi2016]

There was another thread on this not long ago, and the general consensus was that N2 was generally the most realistic, for a good driver. BUT, if you're not such a good driver, you need softer tires to get the same laptimes.

 

[kensei]

There was another thread on this not long ago, and the general consensus was that N2 was generally the most realistic, for a good driver. BUT, if you're not such a good driver, you need softer tires to get the same laptimes.

I know there was a thread about this already. I know it's been discussed...but no one has backed up their assumptions and conclusions with lap data. That is the purpose of the past 2 weeks of work I just did.

Again. The laptimes above are not ultimate fast laps and are only comparable within this list and/or the other tires listed for a given car. In fact many laps have ALOT of time to gain in them.

If anyone has more real life lap times for the ones I don't have PM me with the time and a link (or something to support it)....

 

[Minnesota01R6]

There was another thread on this not long ago, and the general consensus was that N2 was generally the most realistic, for a good driver. BUT, if you're not such a good driver, you need softer tires to get the same laptimes.

Yeah, but isn't this kinda like comparing apples to oranges? I mean, if we aren't comparing times from the same driver, we aren't keeping all the variables the same - we run into a 3rd variable problem and the validity of the experiment is questionable.

 

[Sambert]

Thankyou Kensei, this will be most useful. I had been planning a similar empirical exercise…it appears that it has been done for me. Incidentally, I am disappointed that PD has chosen not to further develop the idea of the ‘simulation’ tyre for all vehicles. I presume that I am not the only one who dislikes equipping thoroughbreds with economy tires in order to provide ourselves with realistic lap times.

 

[Red Raevyn]

Wow, that looks like a lot of work. Thanks, though I'm sure you did it as much for your own peace of mind as anyone else's

 

[KSaiyu]

Thanks for all the data, it does seem to back up my feelings of N3 being the most realistic tyres in the game.

 

[Hyundai Racer]

Great work, the kind of stuff I like to see. I love crunching numbers and cannot wait until I get my copy of GT4 to start my own database...

 

[amar212]

My method for these times is as follows;
-I drove all laps.
-I used arcade cars only.

If I understatd this right, you did the testing in arcade mode.

If so, your data is not accurate to the "real" driving model of the game, since Arcade mode offers "simplified" driving model, no matter of the tyre type chosen - in compare to driving in GT Mode.

If not, sorry for incoviniance.

 

[Amgine]

These times compare to race tires, right? Non-DOT approved, no tread, slick 'n' smooth race tires. Or street tires. There's a huge difference between the two.

 

[oregano]

LOL. why did u turn down the skyline's hp to 276??? did u get that number off their website?? hahaha

 

[STiGUY02]

If I understatd this right, you did the testing in arcade mode.

If so, your data is not accurate to the "real" driving model of the game, since Arcade mode offers "simplified" driving model, no matter of the tyre type chosen - in compare to driving in GT Mode.

If not, sorry for incoviniance.

How does arcade mode offer a "simplified" driving model. I've never noticed a difference in the car physics in the two modes; at least in GT3.

 

[valli]

Great job, kensei! Like Samberto said, that's something I intended to do myself in the future so cheers for the help! What types of tyre do you think correspond to the Street and Sports tyres in the GT4 demo/GT4P?

 

[Greyout]

I would say the closest tire to real life "stock" would be the tire that comes on the car when you buy it. All the other tire options are meant to simulate some sort of real tire, just not an OEM one...

 

[pr0gress]

unless you drove the lap on the "real" course, theres no way you can compare your times on gran turismo. your not a professional driver, theres no way to tell if what tire is more realistic by comparing your times. maybe your n2 tire time is closer to the pros real time, but if the pro drove gt his n2 would be well below and his n1 time would be closer to his real time.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I have always found the 'simulation' tires in GT3 simulate a good set of street tires. I don't have any real world experience driving a 700hp racecar on a track, so I really cant say how GT compares to RL in that regard. I think everyone pretty much knows the racing slicks in GT3 offer way more grip than you would get in RL (they even say they are not realistic when you buy them)

side note: does anyone know what the AI drivers use?

a question: so now GT4 has 6 diffrent tires? (3 normal 3 race?)

 

[Famine]

Three normal, three sport, 6 race, one dirt and one ice.

 

[kensei]

If I understatd this right, you did the testing in arcade mode.

If so, your data is not accurate to the "real" driving model of the game, since Arcade mode offers "simplified" driving model, no matter of the tyre type chosen - in compare to driving in GT Mode.

If not, sorry for incoviniance.

Yes I am aware of this. Early on I tested a arcade and GTmode RGT, Skyline and Elise against each other with the same tires. The time differences were nill and for simplicities sake I decided to use arcade mode since I could adjust the cars PS (HP) and KG up/down to get them close to the real world specs.

I was also thinking that since the arcade mode driving model is simpler that arcade times would be a good baseline. You than can take what you want out of the numbers and use them for your purposes.

Thanks for all the data, it does seem to back up my feelings of N3 being the most realistic tyres in the game.

Like I said it depends on the car. Since I wasn't going for all out fast laptimes there is alot left in the times (some times 10+ seconds) so while on a few cars N3s might be close now, with some work N2s would be the closest. Though in terms of feel I prefer N3s.

LOL. why did u turn down the skyline's hp to 276??? did u get that number off their website?? hahaha

I am well aware of the "gentelman's agreement" in Japan when the Skyline wa sin production. I am also aware that it was doubtful that it had 276hp (more like 320hp+ bone stock). But for the sake of this test the only number I could nail down was the 276hp mark (from Evo, the R34 site and "the skyline story" DVD)...

These times compare to race tires, right? Non-DOT approved, no tread, slick 'n' smooth race tires. Or street tires. There's a huge difference between the two.

See thats the PITA. When you see laptimes for a given circuit you never see them qualified with what tire or a PWR ratio. The Nring site I used at least listed hp/ps and kg but no tires. I will assume though that for normal cars in that list they all used street legal tires...beyond that I have no idea.

For the best motoring times I have absolutely no idea...though I will guess that they too were using street legal tires.

unless you drove the lap on the "real" course, theres no way you can compare your times on gran turismo. your not a professional driver, theres no way to tell if what tire is more realistic by comparing your times. maybe your n2 tire time is closer to the pros real time, but if the pro drove gt his n2 would be well below and his n1 time would be closer to his real time.

No I'm not a professional driver in the real world, not even close.

However in GT I consider myself a "pro", if there is such a thing. I've driven thousands and thousands of hours GT (GT2, 3, 3c, 4p, 4). I know what I am doing and I know how to play the game very well.

Take say Gan-San or Dirk Müller and put us both in GT4 and I highly doubt either could touch me.

Take the same drivers on a real track and I'd be crying.

In the end GT is a video game, not real life...I agree there is a big difference.

I would say the closest tire to real life "stock" would be the tire that comes on the car when you buy it. All the other tire options are meant to simulate some sort of real tire, just not an OEM one...

No way. Most cars come with S2 tires which on most cars allow for laptimes WAY below what they could do in real life. Even well below cars that are far superior to them in real life.

N1s are as close to Simulation tires as we get. N2s are refered to as standard tires (PD's words) while N3s are called "street" tires. Sport tires are all the same except for their hardness and durability.

All that being said I find S1 tires the most enjyable to drive on. N tires I don't enjot much at all, realism or not...

I have always found the 'simulation' tires in GT3 simulate a good set of street tires. I don't have any real world experience driving a 700hp racecar on a track, so I really cant say how GT compares to RL in that regard. I think everyone pretty much knows the racing slicks in GT3 offer way more grip than you would get in RL (they even say they are not realistic when you buy them)

side note: does anyone know what the AI drivers use?

a question: so now GT4 has 6 diffrent tires? (3 normal 3 race?)

I didn't test "race" tires or race cars in this test.

 

[RoadBeef]

Excellent stuff Kensei, 👍

I'll walk home and run the same tests on the Nurb, see if I can break 8 minutes on N2's with the CTR2!

I've printed your comparison sheet, and as an idea, maybe you or I could make a blank sheet for other people here interested in benchmarking the advantages of each tyre type, and therefore judging which delivers the closest-to-realistic experience.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling!! I'll fill you in tomorrow here with what I was able to do.

-beef

P.S., I'll also get Adam involved

 

[kensei]

Excellent stuff Kensei, 👍

I'll walk home and run the same tests on the Nurb, see if I can break 8 minutes on N2's with the CTR2!

I've printed your comparison sheet, and as an idea, maybe you or I could make a blank sheet for other people here interested in benchmarking the advantages of each tyre type, and therefore judging which delivers the closest-to-realistic experience.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling!! I'll fill you in tomorrow here with what I was able to do.

-beef

P.S., I'll also get Adam involved

Hey...are you the same person as on the m5board? Send me a PM when you are ready....

a sub 8min time is VERY doable with the CTR2 on N2s. Like I said I never drove an agressive line in these test. I think sub 7'50 is doable with the N2s on the CTR2....

 

[kensei]

How does arcade mode offer a "simplified" driving model. I've never noticed a difference in the car physics in the two modes; at least in GT3.

GT4 is NOT GT3...

Arcade cars seem dulled down in GT4. They are easier to drive and have more margin for error.

You can really notice it on race cars that have decent power but not a ton of downforce (i.e. Falken skyline). When you get the game try it in Arcade mode then take a stock one to the same track in GTmode (don't adjust anything) and you'll see.

I'm sure amar212 can explain it in detail....

 

[Buggy Boy]

Well done Kensei! I've bookmarked your thread for when I get the game. I can be a testing nut myself sometimes, but I don't think I would have had the patience to get this job done so meticulously.

Interesting result, so I will concentrate on N3 tyres to start with.

Also good to know there is a difference in physics between GT and arcade mode!

 

[Daddybird]

Thanks for all the data, it does seem to back up my feelings of N3 being the most realistic tyres in the game.

No grip doesnt mean more realism.

N2s are the most realistic, considering I've been testing too, and N2s feel the most realistic (N1s abit like driving while its freezing). S tires are very unrealistic.

 

[GT Freak!]

So N2 seems to be generaly the most realistic tyre. What about racing slicks? Which of the 6 racing tyres of varying compounds create the most realistic lap times and/or handling characterisitics? One question, comparing the m3 to the m3 csl. The m3 CSL had cup tyres while the normal M3;s have standard street tyres. To get realistic lap times and handling would i still need to use N2 tyres or like the real life CSL, would i have to get sport tyres to be more realisitic? Good post anyway!

 

[kensei]

So N2 seems to be generaly the most realistic tyre. What about racing slicks? Which of the 6 racing tyres of varying compounds create the most realistic lap times and/or handling characterisitics? One question, comparing the m3 to the m3 csl. The m3 CSL had cup tyres while the normal M3;s have standard street tyres. To get realistic lap times and handling would i still need to use N2 tyres or like the real life CSL, would i have to get sport tyres to be more realisitic? Good post anyway!

I originally was going to add race tires into this test but after running one set of laps (BMW M3 GTR race on the nurburgring) I found even R1s were +15 seconds faster than Dirk Muller's best qualifying laps (timed by myself from video of him driving only the Nordschleife during the 24hour of the nurburging, yes I added +3 secs to his time for the section of the nordschleife he doesn't drive).

IMO Race cars are for GT mode. Race cars are customizable and tunable machines. It is "real" to be able to do that, which you can't in arcade mode.

I'm not planning on running a race tire test as the M3 proved to me all i wanted to know.

I'll hotlap race cars, but only in GTmode. The times won't be realistic though.

Interestingly though in GT mode if you put S2s on a race car you get pretty real laptimes.....FYI

 

[SaintKamus]

I know there was a thread about this already. I know it's been discussed...but no one has backed up their assumptions and conclusions with lap data. That is the purpose of the past 2 weeks of work I just did.

Again. The laptimes above are not ultimate fast laps and are only comparable within this list and/or the other tires listed for a given car. In fact many laps have ALOT of time to gain in them.

If anyone has more real life lap times for the ones I don't have PM me with the time and a link (or something to support it)....

Whoa, kensei, so they actually let you start a thread about this? mine got shafterd by the moderators for some reason, anyway. i have some data on Tsukuba with real / GT4 cars, the Tsukuba times are taken by Best Motoring drivers, while the GT4 times are done by Flinx, who could be considered a Pro GT4 player, anyway, the BMW M3 seems faster than it is in real life in the game, same goes for other cars.. but most cars would be very close to the original car's performance with N2 tyres.

if you want to add Tsukuba times to your comparo, just send me an email or PM and i'll send you all the times i have.

 

[kensei]

Whoa, kensei, so they actually let you start a thread about this? mine got shafterd by the moderators for some reason, anyway. i have some data on Tsukuba with real / GT4 cars, the Tsukuba times are taken by Best Motoring drivers, while the GT4 times are done by Flinx, who could be considered a Pro GT4 player, anyway, the BMW M3 seems faster than it is in real life in the game, same goes for other cars.. but most cars would be very close to the original car's performance with N2 tyres.

if you want to add Tsukuba times to your comparo, just send me an email or PM and i'll send you all the times i have.

Post the times in here in my format. it might be good if other drivers posted laptimes in my format then many people can compare.....

 

[SaintKamus]

oh and by the way Kensei, if you take a look at some of the reps i sent you you'll find that some cars are overly powerful, specially some BMW's.

i can get 7'50.xxx (N2) on the M5 on nurburgring easily
7'55.xxx (N2) on the M3 CSL
and here's the intresting part... i think they got the M3 GTR RIGHT, compared to the CSL (the regular M3 also seems overpowered)
i am on avarage, 2 seconds slower around nurburgring with an M3 GTR than with an M3 CSL, i gave each car about 3-4 laps on the curse having the same results evry single time.

 

[SaintKamus]

Post the times in here in my format. it might be good if other drivers posted laptimes in my format then many people can compare.....

i'll tell you what, i'll just send you the thread i started comparing Flinx times and Best Motoring times on a PM, i have even more data taken from best motoring though.
but for now, here you go... (wierd thing is my thread is not public and it has 111 views...)

 

[Mooman117]

Thanks Kensei, good post always apreciate people doing testing that I can't be bothered to do.

Cheers