What is real? (Normal car, N & S tire testing data)

[Swift]

Kensei, that's simply excellent. Thanks for the effort and breakdown.

 

[SaintKamus]

If I understatd this right, you did the testing in arcade mode.

If so, your data is not accurate to the "real" driving model of the game, since Arcade mode offers "simplified" driving model, no matter of the tyre type chosen - in compare to driving in GT Mode.

If not, sorry for incoviniance.

sorry amar, but i have to strongly disagree with you here, if you turn off all aids in arcade mode, and use "N" tyres arcade mode is exactly the same as GT mode... with the inconvinience that in GT mode, the cars come setup for "arcade" gameplay, meaning.. they are completley unrealistic, they come setup with S2 tyres which have too much grip, they come with ASM on which basicly won't let you take corners too fast or too slow (it tries to pretty much give you the ideal speed.) they come with TCS on, (but at least TCS is realistic)
so in actuality, it's a lot easier to get arcade cars to run in sim mode than GT mode cars, because for GT you have to turn those features off for EACH car you buy, in arcade mode you can pre-determine if you want TCS/ASM off, the only thing you can't predetermine is tyres, which like in sim mode, are setup to "S2" by default, oh yeah, and in Sim mode yuou have to go to the manufacturer to get the "N" tyres... invonvinient to say the least.

 

[kensei]

(here is the Saint's post....)



This thread is for people instrested in knowing just how accurate Gran Turismo is compared to real life when it comes to car's performance.
Flinx is a well known driver here in GT planet and he's been doing some comparos with times from Best Motoring. (Best Motoring is a japenese video magazine for those of you who don't know.) Flinx times are very close to the limit and are good enough to be compared with a PRO driver on a real track, the results are below:

Tsukuba Circuit:

Car Best Motoring times ------------------ GT4 (TCS & ASM: off, DFP, MT)

BMW M3 1:09.40 ------------------------ N1: 1´07.3, N2: 1´05.8
N3: 1´03.8, S1: 1´02.4
S2: 1´01.4, S3: 1´00.8

As you can see the M3 is 2 full seconds faster than the real car, this is a lot, specially considering this is a small circuit, N1 tyres are the closest to real life, but still way faster (maybe the tyres aren't entirely to blame on this car?) "S" Tyres offer waaaay too much grip IMO.

NSX - R 1'04"89 ----------------------------------- N1: 1´05.80
(newest model)


Only N1 used for this test (and all tests below), i had always felt that this car performed closer to the real car with N2... lots of inconsistencies here, a car that's slower, and a car that's way faster with even N1, Flinx thinks the drivetrain has strong linfluence in the times.

Subaru STi Spec C 1'05"01 ------------------------------ N1: 1´07.03

Like the NSX-R, i bet this car gets extremley close to it's real life performance with N2 tyres, should be pretty much the same time.

Lancer Evo VIII MR GSR 1'05"45 ------------------------- N1: 1´07.36

Yet another car that should get close to the original performance with N2 tyres.

Honda S2000 1:08.83 ------------------------------- N1: 1´09.21

not sure if the car used in BM is the 2.2 litter or the 2.0 (i'm guessing the 2.2 since it has been out since 2003, also used for Flinx test is the 2.2) yet another car that should get close to the original car's performance with N2 tyres, but N1 is kinda close too.

Mazda RX8 Type S 1'11"300 ---------------------------------- N1: 1´09.74

whoa, yet another car like the M3, which is completley off when compared to the real car... this performance is actually very close to the Mazda Speed RX8, which is the a tuned version from mazda themselves, strong inconsistencies here.




Anyway, this is still a work in progress, more cars (and tracks) will be added as soon as Flinx gets enough free time to run some more tests, but as you can see there are some strong inconsistencies going on... some cars are VERY close to their performance if they use N2 tyres, (using the BMW time difference as a reference, since most cars were ran only using N1.) while others are too fast even with N1.
The intresting thing here is, that the cars that do get close to their performance do it with N2 tyres, while the cars that are "too fast" are even too fast with N1 tyres, more cars and tracks need to betested to confirm this though.
On my personal experience i found the Corvette C5 as being as one of those "too fast" cars... it beats the NSX-R with N2 tyres on both Tsukuba and Nurburgring, something i just know is impossible for the C5. (C6 might beat it on nurburgring.. don't know about Tsukuba since it's a slower track and weight would give the NSX-R the advantage.)

So, that's it for now, i'll update with more cars and tracks as soon as i get more info.

-- Kamu

 

[kensei]

sorry amar, but i have to strongly disagree with you here, if you turn off all aids in arcade mode, and use "N" tyres arcade mode is exactly the same as GT mode... with the inconvinience that in GT mode, the cars come setup for "arcade" gameplay, meaning.. they are completley unrealistic, they come setup with S2 tyres which have too much grip, they come with ASM on which basicly won't let you take corners too fast or too slow (it tries to pretty much give you the ideal speed.) they come with TCS on, (but at least TCS is realistic)
so in actuality, it's a lot easier to get arcade cars to run in sim mode than GT mode cars, because for GT you have to turn those features off for EACH car you buy, in arcade mode you can pre-determine if you want TCS/ASM off, the only thing you can't predetermine is tyres, which like in sim mode, are setup to "S2" by default, oh yeah, and in Sim mode yuou have to go to the manufacturer to get the "N" tyres... invonvinient to say the least.

You know I prefer GTmode. Part of the appeal to GT is tuning, which is realistic. However for stock normal cars I have no problem running them in Arcade mode. Some cars, like the Ruf CTR, CTR2, RGT have suspension tuning in their stock form, which makes a huge difference.

Turning ASM/TC off in GTmode isn't a big deal, nor is buying tires. For hotlapping I pretty much only have interest in about 20 cars, all of which I have bought in GTmode. Race cars I leave stock and leave stock and just buy tires. Normal cars I also pretyt much elave stock....though I have 4 or 5 I "tune".

As far as arcade feeling different...it does. It isn't so much noticable with normal cars but try the Falken GTR...compare the GTR to the demo, arcade and GT mode...you'll notice a HUGE difference in feel and probably latimes.

 

[KSaiyu]

No grip doesnt mean more realism.

N2s are the most realistic, considering I've been testing too, and N2s feel the most realistic (N1s abit like driving while its freezing). S tires are very unrealistic.

Yes, but the way I see it is that if we can get close times to real life in N2s, then they can't be realistic. None of us can compare to those drivers in real life, yet you think that the most realistic is the ones that show the closest lap times. There is so much more variables in the physics than just the tyre choice, which is why I don't think we'll ever be able to tell what the most realistic tyre is all-around.

I feel N3's are more realistic as they show much more realistic response and grip out of corners. However, the lap times in N3's can be faster, sometimes by as much as 10 seconds than the real life. But you must remember, theoretically we CAN'T test a tyre's realism based on these times - the only way we could is if we could:

-drive to their standards in real life
-have GT4 accurate to real life in EVERY detail

I also don't understand you're statement about no grip meaning more realism? I just stated that I feel it's N3s that give the most realistic feel in the game. Personally, I think the ideal real life grip for quite a few of the cars would be inbetween N2s and N3s, but that's a very, very general statement, as tyre's in the game could be very realistic in steady state cornering grip levels, but crap (as a lot of GT4's cars are) under braking (I'm sorry, but the brakes are TOO good in the game).

 

[FRST]

Thanks a lot Kensei !!!

I'm almost only interested in "realistic times" and time attack since ...no kidding.... I'm learning how to drive fast in GT4 (tracks are illegal in my retarded country)

I did not even finish GT3 but spent an awful lot of time racing the same track alone to enhance my times.

I only have one question are N2-N3 realistci when it comes to powersliding ?
I hate those tires where you only have understeer even on a Viper..it's just too stupid for me to play with them...

 

[KSaiyu]

I only have one question are N2-N3 realistci when it comes to powersliding ?
I hate those tires where you only have understeer even on a Viper..it's just too stupid for me to play with them...

Powersliding is very possible on N tyres, especially the older cars. Haven't tried the Viper yet though, but I would imagine it would....

 

[Scaff]

Personally, I think the ideal real life grip for quite a few of the cars would be inbetween N2s and N3s, but that's a very, very general statement, as tyre's in the game could be very realistic in steady state cornering grip levels, but crap (as a lot of GT4's cars are) under braking (I'm sorry, but the brakes are TOO good in the game).

Its not that the brakes are too good in the GT series, its that you can't lose grip when braking as quickly as you would IRL.

Threshold braking is far far to easy, just slam on the brakes, the car hits the grip limit and bingo, on pops the ABS. With no loss of grip, everyone just hammers the brakes with no fear of 'flat-spotting' a tyre and the associated problems.

Simulated brake fade for street cars (or anything with non-racing brakes) would be welcome as well.

To me, these are some of the major factors that cause the game lap times and the RL times to differ.

Remember any remotely modern braking system (even drums) are capable of breaking the grip limit of a tyre, so its the accuracy of the tyres grip level thats causing the problem, not the braking system. Your braking systems power has very little to do with the stopping distance when braking.

Still, its better that the days before the GT series when racing games did not need the use of brakes!! Now that was bad.

 

[FRST]

Powersliding is very possible on N tyres, especially the older cars. Haven't tried the Viper yet though, but I would imagine it would....

Thanks for the reply...

 

[jake11375]

I think another aspect to consider... (if it hasn't been mentioned yet) When comparing RL and GT, driver confidence and repercussions for mistakes can play a major factor, especially considering GT times besting RL by a small or great margin. In GT you are ready and willing to push each corner to its full limitations and there are no consequences for late braking or other miscalculations like RL. If you lock your brakes going 125 mph in RL, you will slam into a wall, total your car and possibly kill yourself. Nothing to worry about in GT, just hit restart and try braking a little earlier next time....

 

[3rdgenracerX]

I still say N1's are the most realistic tires in GT4. Its very hard to drive fast while using them but then again so are street tires.

The reason why I say N1's are realistic is because I've turned a 8'13.800 with a RUF CTR 87' yellowbird, NO TCS or ASM, completely stock and on N1's.

The same car and track that Stefan drove flat out on and we've come to a near identical time. Ofcourse my time was faster than his, only because he had to deal with traffic and I didn't.
If I time myself from the same start and stop points, just after turn 1 and ending right at the spot where the GP track exits onto the start finish straight and I have a time of, 8'05.XXX seconds.
Now if I time Stefan's with the same start and stop points, he did a 8'18.XXX while having to deal with traffic. I have no doubt that if he had a completely clean track then he would have done at least a 8'00-8'05. That traffic killed his time. But still even with the traffic our times are just a mere, 2.77% difference between my time and Stefans traffic time. If you divide 485 / 498 seconds you get .973. I just wish he was able to do a clean lap, that would make comparision's much better to do. If you would give him at least 10 secodns less for having to deal with the traffic then that percentage would be less than 1% of a difference


Now what is purely sick about this is that IF I had the proper movie making software I could put the two videos side by side and they would almost sinc up PERFECT with minimal timestretching to my vid to slow me down when Stefan met with traffic and when we braked at the end of Fuchsrohre. Stefan braked a little earlyer for control reason's. I've lost it under braking there a few times VERY hard and fun braking zone that has an uphill turn in it. Everything else sinc's up in normal play!

Now i'm giving my all, you can really tell in my video that I made. Ofcourse the only way to reall tell is if Stefan would do a few laps in GT4 as well. But this is what i've came up with after doing just a few laps with the car. Odd thing is that I just watched his vid and used the same braking points when I went out in GT4!!!!!

 

[kensei]

I still say N1's are the most realistic tires in GT4. Its very hard to drive fast while using them but then again so are street tires.

The reason why I say N1's are realistic is because I've turned a 8'13.800 with a RUF CTR 87' yellowbird, NO TCS or ASM, completely stock and on N1's.

The same car and track that Stefan drove flat out on and we've come to a near identical time. Ofcourse my time was faster than his, only because he had to deal with traffic and I didn't.
If I time myself from the same start and stop points, just after turn 1 and ending right at the spot where the GP track exits onto the start finish straight and I have a time of, 8'05.XXX seconds.
Now if I time Stefan's with the same start and stop points, he did a 8'18.XXX while having to deal with traffic. I have no doubt that if he had a completely clean track then he would have done at least a 8'00-8'05. That traffic killed his time. But still even with the traffic our times are just a mere, 2.77% difference between my time and Stefans traffic time. If you divide 485 / 498 seconds you get .973. I just wish he was able to do a clean lap, that would make comparision's much better to do. If you would give him at least 10 secodns less for having to deal with the traffic then that percentage would be less than 1% of a difference


Now what is purely sick about this is that IF I had the proper movie making software I could put the two videos side by side and they would almost sinc up PERFECT with minimal timestretching to my vid to slow me down when Stefan met with traffic and when we braked at the end of Fuchsrohre. Stefan braked a little earlyer for control reason's. I've lost it under braking there a few times VERY hard and fun braking zone that has an uphill turn in it. Everything else sinc's up in normal play!

Now i'm giving my all, you can really tell in my video that I made. Ofcourse the only way to reall tell is if Stefan would do a few laps in GT4 as well. But this is what i've came up with after doing just a few laps with the car. Odd thing is that I just watched his vid and used the same braking points when I went out in GT4!!!!!

Another thing about those Roser videos is he is driving the SAME car we have in GT4 (a prototype CTR, not a production model)...it's the car that they modeled the one in GT4 from.

Are you using the arcade or sim CTR?

It's funny you posted this because I was just about to sit down and test the CTR with N1s and N2s driving an aggressive line going for an all out lap.

 

[3rdgenracerX]

Simulation CTR.

EFF the arcade IMO. I'm only going to compare what I can do in sim mode since that should be putting down about the same kinds of times rather than a more laid back pick up and go Arcade mode.

Since's its safe to put another vid up on my server, i'll be putting up a decent res video of the lap I did.

 

[kensei]

Simulation CTR.

EFF the arcade IMO. I'm only going to compare what I can do in sim mode since that should be putting down about the same kinds of times rather than a more laid back pick up and go Arcade mode.

Since's its safe to put another vid up on my server, i'll be putting up a decent res video of the lap I did.

Finally someone who feels the same way I do. Sim mode is the only way to go for serious hotlapping. Arcade is just too...well arcade. The CTR is SO much easier to handle in arcade as well.

Hotlapping arcade cars in GT3 never interested me, nor does it in GT4.

 

[3rdgenracerX]

Finally someone who feels the same way I do. Sim mode is the only way to go for serious hotlapping. Arcade is just too...well arcade. The CTR is SO much easier to handle in arcade as well.

Hotlapping arcade cars in GT3 never interested me, nor does it in GT4.

Indeed, Sim is the only way to compare times. There is no arcade option in real life after all

 

[KSaiyu]

To me, these are some of the major factors that cause the game lap times and the RL times to differ.

Remember any remotely modern braking system (even drums) are capable of breaking the grip limit of a tyre, so its the accuracy of the tyres grip level thats causing the problem, not the braking system. Your braking systems power has very little to do with the stopping distance when braking.

Still, its better that the days before the GT series when racing games did not need the use of brakes!! Now that was bad.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say, but I think people misinterpreted it as me saying the braking systems in GT4 were better. Take most cars on even N1 tyres and you get unrealistic braking effects.

I still say N1's are the most realistic tires in GT4. Its very hard to drive fast while using them but then again so are street tires.

The reason why I say N1's are realistic is because I've turned a 8'13.800 with a RUF CTR 87' yellowbird, NO TCS or ASM, completely stock and on N1's.

The same car and track that Stefan drove flat out on and we've come to a near identical time. Ofcourse my time was faster than his, only because he had to deal with traffic and I didn't.

That's the thing though, we can't really compare GT times to real life, even though we've been playing GT to get to their "level" in terms of car control in the GT universe. There are too many other variables to know which tyres in the game represent real life in terms of grip levels and characteristics.

 

[Gabkicks]

so... N2= normal comfor tires?
N3= normal road tires?
Or am I not seeing something? I just got the game about an hour ago
also, what button do i press so ican see the wheel in the middle of the screen during replays?

 

[KSaiyu]

Well they vary in grip with N1 having the least and N3 having the most out of all the street tyres. Also, to get the wheel up you press start and then select during a race, and in a replay you have to go into the options, and change something under "race"

 

[Gabkicks]

Well they vary in grip with N1 having the least and N3 having the most out of all the street tyres. Also, to get the wheel up you press start and then select during a race, and in a replay you have to go into the options, and change something under "race"

I've read through the thread so i already understand that. But there's no N1 N2 N3 in the american version of gt4? all i see are Economy, comfort, road, and sports hard, medium and soft.

so, which are N1 N2 and N3 in the american version?

 

[KSaiyu]

Ahh I see, well Economy = N1 to Road = N3

 

[Gabkicks]

you kinda answered my question in your first response. but I'm having a racegasm so all the blood that was in my brain has rushed to my hands and feet. I finally got gt4 about an hour ago

Man.. the tires feel much better, the changes in traction from stress is much more realistic now with the normal tires. I'm debating taking the Camaro SS 350 out on the ring with some S2 tires...

 

[3rdgenracerX]

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say, but I think people misinterpreted it as me saying the braking systems in GT4 were better. Take most cars on even N1 tyres and you get unrealistic braking effects.



That's the thing though, we can't really compare GT times to real life, even though we've been playing GT to get to their "level" in terms of car control in the GT universe. There are too many other variables to know which tyres in the game represent real life in terms of grip levels and characteristics.

I dissagree on both parts, i'm using the same exact braking points as Stefan. Were both braking within 5 meters of each other for just about every single corner with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 places and traffic instances.

If i'm giving my 100% and Stefan is "or it looks as if" he's giving his 100% and were comming up with about the same time given certian circumstances then the things are pretty close IMO on N1's and whatever the equivilant tire is in the US gt4.

I'm working on a small short vid showing what i'm talking about, we use the exact same braking points in many places.

 

[KSaiyu]

Ahhh you caught me on the braking - I mentioned earlier that the early RUF's have the most realistic braking in terms of both distance and effects on car handling, it's a shame they didn't carry this over to the 9/10 other cars in the game. However, I do still disagree on the time comparison with N1s, as for a start you have to use different techniques in the game to go fast (just listen to the tyre squeel), although I'm looking forward to the vid. I still stick to a tyre inbetween N2 and N3 being the most consistent representation to real life.

hmm 8:26 with N1s on my first try with 2 spins, I love these cars

 

[3rdgenracerX]

www.3rdgenracerX.net/gt4.wmv Short 1 minute vid showing 27 seconds of each run through the same corners.

 

[KSaiyu]

Nice vid, I do see what you mean....

 

[KSaiyu]

hmmmm, so I guess no-ones got any data on which tyres are most realistic on "super" cars, though it would help if someone had driven one....

 

[SaintKamus]

www.3rdgenracerX.net/gt4.wmv Short 1 minute vid showing 27 seconds of each run through the same corners.

I got quite a few more nurburgring time attack videos. With out any traffic, if you're intrested i could find a way to send them to you so you can compare those, funny you guys mention different arcade / simulation times, if i setup my car the same way (regarding tyres and Aassists) i get exactly the same results.

I got time attacks with an NSX-R (02 version), a Subaru STi Spec C, a Lancer Evo VIII MR GSR. oh, the Subaru time is good, but i saw a stream video of the same car that is about 4-5 seconds faster than the one i have...
and by the way, do you think stefan had a warm up lap? cold tyres severly affect performance (all of the time attacks i have have a at least a prior lap.) i don't think he had a warmup lap (in GT i found that "blue" tyres are cold, but in time attacks you'd get the equivalent to green tyres, meaning, tyres are warm)

Oh and by the way, can you time the NSX-R ('02) on nurburgring with N1 tyres? i gave it a few runs and got 8'11.xxx but to match the video i have i would need at least 8'03.xxx or something similar (they use the old finish for the videos, so they actually time 7'56.xxx but in reality the car started further down the track, the "finish" they use can also be seen in the game.)

i'm positive i can improve on 8'11.xxx, but i won't give it another try untill i get the US version later today, on arcade mode i can get 7'57.2xx on N2 tyres, but i gave it quite a few more tries than i did with N1 tyres on sim mode.

 

[Gabkicks]

so.. you guys havent touched the suspension settings or done anything except put on n2 tires and turn off assists? Are you using pro or Sim Steering? I just won the Yellowbird and im trying to figure out how to get it to handle the most realisticly.

 

[3rdgenracerX]

so.. you guys havent touched the suspension settings or done anything except put on n2 tires and turn off assists? Are you using pro or Sim Steering? I just won the Yellowbird and im trying to figure out how to get it to handle the most realisticly.

Completely stock Yellow bird with a set of N1's and the assists turned off. Then manhandle everything you can out of her

In the Japan GT4 I had the wheel set on Strong feedback. There wasn't anything I saw in the translations for sim or pro settings.

 

[Gabkicks]

I dunno about the japanese version, but in the american one its the 3rd option in the steering settings. Its set at amateur by default, but i have it at pro. I was wondering if I changed it to sim... would drifting would still be possible?... I... guess I'll test it out in sim mode

Should power assist be off or on?