What is real? (Normal car, N & S tire testing data)

  • Thread starter kensei
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Gabkicks
i really dont like using anything but radial tires with non super cars because its just too easy with sports and racing tires. :indiff:
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I've been using that same theory lately, and it has turned out to be far more enjoyable.

With N tires, you are feeling what the car felt like when it was being tested and copied into the game.

This is why those tires are free.


Sports tires are just to give production cars a more 'racey' feel right off the bat, but the tires may not suit the suspension tune.

I used to think completing a lap off the 'Ring was challenging.

Now I'm going for best times with a 350ps M3 with N2 tires.

:scared:
 
the BMWs are stable as hell with n2 tires compared to other cars. very smooth. but the m5 is a beast... i actually spun out my 1st time driving it on the nurburgring on a very slight highspeed turn. :)

The one thing i noticed though is that if you use n2 tires against the AI, they have better breaking power. I'm not sure if thats from better tires or better breaks. THey also arent pushing very hard when cornering, but i'm damn near sidewayssometimes through the same corner. (it could be technique thouh because I like oversteer over understeer. Even in rally races the AI understeers sometimes.)
 
Great thread, lots of good info on here to get the beginner through the minefield of GT4 tires.

With so many real life and in game variables it is virtually impossible to say definitevly which tires are the most realistic for each respective car but you can't go far wrong with the N1 (Economy) tires.


I guess people will just have to consult the various best time databases and compare their best laps with other GT4 racers on the same tires.

BTW, I was under the impression that Arcade and Gran Turismo/Sim mode are identicle in terms of physics. You just have to turn of all of the driver aides and select the correct tires.
 
I dont understand something....isnt the idea of this game to build and tweak your stock cars to actually perform BETTER by upgrading them with parts? Then why would all these stock cars actually come stock with more expensive and BETTER performing tires than the other ones you can buy.

Who in their right mind would actually spend money to downgrade their performance and change their stock tires??

Am I understanding this correctly?
 
not quite.

To a lot of people the fun is to drive the cars as stock as possible, as fast as possible.

And good news, this 'downgrading' in tires is now for free, since all 'N' tires will not cost you a single credit.
 
Thanks for the data.

Here's my experience IRL with Yokohama A539's (a grippy street tyre) and Dunlop Formula D01 soft compound.

The car is a 92 MX5 modified for lap dashes and is the current state champion

A539's 1.16.57
D01's 1.13.51

I've probably done 500 IRL Laps at Wakefield a tight technical circuit like Tuksuba

There is an incredible amount of grip from the D01's , just like GT4 S3's, however when they let go they really let go, unlike the 539's which squeal and protest and warn you first

Others who have swapped from road rubber to DOT legal rubber also found 2.5 - 3 seconds per lap, so I feel GT4 is fairly accurate

Cheers
 
I guess my question is, why wouldnt it make more sense for Gran Turismo to design the game to have these cars come with the cheaper, less quality Street Tires when you first buy the cars and force you to purchase the Sport Tires as an UPGRADE?.....doesnt this make more sense from a progressive standpoint?

Who in their right mind is going to change their better stock sport tires and downground to regular N tires if they give slower times and less handling??....what is the tradeoff or point for using these tires at all?....can someone elaborate on this?



Also my 2nd question, forgive me if it sounds stupid but I have just started playing the GT series games but I was wondering if the car upgrade strategy is just to simply upgrade your entire car to the most expensive parts all the time or is there a more complex 'matching' certain parts with other parts strategy that would yield better car performance?

Usually, I just keep upgrading each of my cars to the most expensive flywheels, drivetrains, brakes, engine upgrades, turbo, ect ect......is this the right strategy?


3rd question, I still cannot use MANUAL SHIFTING yet.....I use AUTO, is this going to absolutely be a disadvantage or can I compete with manual shifting drivers...are there any AUTO SHIFT tips I can use to get more out of AUTO that I am not aware of?....someone mentioned somewhere that you can hold another button or something to force it to rev higher or shift quicker???....can someone expalin?
 
Lisa_Bonami
I guess my question is, why wouldnt it make more sense for Gran Turismo to design the game to have these cars come with the cheaper, less quality Street Tires when you first buy the cars and force you to purchase the Sport Tires as an UPGRADE?.....doesnt this make more sense from a progressive standpoint?

Who in their right mind is going to change their better stock sport tires and downground to regular N tires if they give slower times and less handling??....what is the tradeoff or point for using these tires at all?....can someone elaborate on this?



Also my 2nd question, forgive me if it sounds stupid but I have just started playing the GT series games but I was wondering if the car upgrade strategy is just to simply upgrade your entire car to the most expensive parts all the time or is there a more complex 'matching' certain parts with other parts strategy that would yield better car performance?

Usually, I just keep upgrading each of my cars to the most expensive flywheels, drivetrains, brakes, engine upgrades, turbo, ect ect......is this the right strategy?


3rd question, I still cannot use MANUAL SHIFTING yet.....I use AUTO, is this going to absolutely be a disadvantage or can I compete with manual shifting drivers...are there any AUTO SHIFT tips I can use to get more out of AUTO that I am not aware of?....someone mentioned somewhere that you can hold another button or something to force it to rev higher or shift quicker???....can someone expalin?
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I would seem that giving the cars "regular" tires first would make more sense if the game was more of a driving simulator. However, the game lies somewhere in between a simulator and an arcade game so you get a tire that is more "user friendly" so some one isn't scared off by the game being too dificult. That is also the reson every car has driver aids turned on by default.

As far as your second question goes.. I tend to buy different parts depending on two things. The first is expense, I don't spend money on end level parts for a car that I'm only going to race a limited number of times. The second reason deals with torque and engine size. I primarly will not buy high end flywheels on a small low-torque engine due to the loss of torque response. I would imagine that you could also be choosy with parts depending on if you plan to turbocharge the engine or not. These parts I'm talking about would be the transmission parts. You are right about suspensions though, I see no reason not to buy the best suspension available, unless you just want to try and save money.

I drive a manual and have always done so, it feels natural to me and automatics make me feel out of touch with the car. I don't see it being any huge disadvantage in the game and is more of a matter of preference.
 
Buggy Boy
Has anyone ever seen any information by Polyphony Digital about the weight of the driver being incalculated in the physics engine?

I think it's not. Which would make every car about a 100 kg lighter then it would be in real life (driver + equipment + at least a small amount of fuel for hotlapping).

This probably is another factor which makes lap times faster in the game as in real life. We talk about almost 10% of weight error. It will have a significant impact on the lighter cars, like the Caterham, where there would be (or is?) an error of almost 25% in weight.
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That really depends. Some manufacturers (BMW for certain, and I think possibly Mercedes-Benz) include a provision for driver and fuel weight in their official curb weights. For instance, per my owner's manual:

Curb weight (with one person, ready for operation, full tank of fuel, options not included): 1,430 kg

Some further research revealed that the driver weight used was 75 kg. Therefore, the actual empty weight of my car (with fuel) is only 1,355 kg. We can estimate the fuel weighs around 50 kg.

So, assuming PD used these figures (and it would seem so based on the spec sheets for the cars in-game), cars by those manufacturers would be fairly accurate in their weight.
 
sorry for the lenghtness
kensei
Conclusion
So what is the most realistic tire for a normal car? It's hard to set a general rule but if you must I'd say N2s. However it seems to differ form car to car between N2s and N3s. It is interesting to point out that of all my laps on the Nordschleife the second lap was always faster. But on Tsukuba it was usually my 2nd or 3rd lap (out of 5) that was the fastest. N1 tires are generally difficult to drive fast and consistent with, they make almost any car understeer and you need to watch your brake zones (brake early). N2 tires are still difficult to drive consistent and fast yet they offer, what I consider, a realistic grip. N3 tires feel about the same as N2s but they offer more "bite" on turn in and braking is easier to judge.
Click to expand...
...but.....this is I was saying in the other topic

in later posts you retreat this showing other laptimes..... but have you considered how dead-driven are these laps? Cold or warm tires?

have you never heard of this? [SUPERCARS.NET]
all real lap taken with 100% legal stock car

7:59 --- 154.822 kph -- Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R, Dirk Schoymans (Autocar magazine 1997)
it's 30kg lighter than the R34 you tested, but very far of the 8'46 with N1-GT4

7:52 --- 157.119 kph – BMW M5 (E60), 507 hp,
8:13 --- 150.426 kph -- BMW M5 (E60), 507 hp/1844 kg (sport auto 12/2004),
with more than 100kg of load a great time compared with yours 8'17 with N1-GT4

8:20 --- 148.320 kph -- BMW M3 E36, 321 hp (Autocar magazine 1997)
8:22 --- 147.749 kph -- BMW M3 E46, 343 hp/1584 kg (sport auto 12/2000)
the first it's just your N2 laptime, but without ~20hp
the second is closer (2004 M3 weights 1570kg)

7:50 --- 157.787 kph -- BMW E46 M3 CSL (sport auto 08/2003)
you are so fast only with RD (N3) tires. N1 are 33" slower!!!!!
This is what I call an extreme car, also

8:32 --- 144.844 kph -- Lotus Exige, 192hp
you have tested the Elise 111S (same engine, same weight)
N2: 8'32.373 ....... N1: 8'51.713 (is this not too poor?)

8:05 --- 152.907 kph – Ruf CTR
N1: 8'20.007 N2: 8'00.588 N3: 7'52.700

8:15 --- 149.818 kph -- Ruf 911 CTR 2
N1: 8'22.992 N2: 8'09.821 N3: 7'52.635
also see 7:56 --- 155.798 kph -- Porsche 996 Turbo, 420 hp/1569 kg (sport auto 06/2000) How a more powered, less weighted Ruf can be slower than the original?

Hypothesis:
1) Not all records are perfect lap as we can do in GT4
2) Not all drivers can drive on the edge as many people can do in GT4
3) No drivers can lap the ring 10-100 times a week as we can (experience - track knowledge)
4) many records are of not-owner pro drivers (very good drivers with bad knowledge of the car)
5) GT4 players don't play with their life
6) Very few records are done without traffic, with warm tires and clean track. The 7:00 recordman of the ring said: "the track was very dirt in many places....."
7) Also, imho, in gt-sim mode better times are harder to obtain compared with arcade


Conclusions:
I agree with your original thesis. To properly simulate a real stock car you have to use:
N2 tires for normal cars (even N1 for historical and less powered compact cars, like the Yaris F, if you want)
N3 tires for extreme cars (many cars can mount tires like the Pirelli P-Zero or equivalent - many mount them in stock)
S1-C tires for racing (if you want to mount F1 slick 80's qualifing chewing-gums, why not?)
I think the horse was not dead, at last ;)

Is this debate closed or there are resources to continue?
And don't forget: have fun 👍
 
nobody?

I don't know if it is known, but is a good new. Tires affects earned A-spec points.
Usefule to maximise them is racing with N tires instead of default.
 
I know that i am way late posting this, i did read a thread on this that i just found dated back in early 2005 but i just felt like resurfacing this topic. There was much debate posted on this topic, but i still cant get it out of my head as to which N tire suits which car to make it as close to stock as possible. Now i know there are alot of factors invloved as to realistic issues, but when i buy a car in GT, why couldn't it just come with "stock" tires, instead of it already coming with S2 tires slapped on to it and making us figure out which N tire is closest to stock.
Just for fun, i compared times to BMI "Rotary Reborn" and "Factory Fighters". I took 3 types of cars, 1 FR, 1 FF and 1 AWD.
The track: Tskuba.
BMI Lap times: M3 CSL — 1'06'99, Integra Type-R (DC5) — 1'09'34, Evo VIII MR GSR — 1'06'54.
GT MODE

I chose Tskuba because its a great test track and the drivers on BMI know that track like the back of their hand so you know that the lap times are pretty spot on when it comes to time attacks.
I did a few laps with each testing out all N tires (aids off), i didn't drive edge of my seat style or to conservative either, just tried to get the best line possible. My results were actually pretty interesting. I matched each time for each car "in the same second range" using different N tires for each. The FR car i tested matched its 1'06 time using N1's. The FF car matched it's 1'09 time using N3's. And the AWD matched its time of 1'06 using the N2's. It seemed that using different N tires other then the ones i used to match each time were either to fast or to slow. It boggled my mind. I also did secondary tests using an RX-8 Type-S (FR) which laps Tskuba in the 1'11's and got the same result using the N1's. Using N2's on it laped Tskuba 2 seconds faster, and 4 seconds faster using n3's

So to conclude, for me at least, FR cars should be equipped with N1's, AWD cars with N2's and FF cars with N3's to get the most realistic driving experience. I'm sure people will disagree but try it out for yourself. Either way i LOVE GT and am hoping GT5 will learn from and surpass GT4!
 
I disagree with your findings. In GT4, I think it's safe to assume the only differences between N1, N2 and N3 tyres are grip level and wear rate. An N3 tyre provides more grip than an N2 tyre which in turn provides more grip than an N1 tyre. I think most people are agreed on these?

Using several different laps from real life performed on several different days with possibly different drivers and trying to match those times in a game where the weather conditions and driver are always the same is already introducing too much of an error, IMHO.

Then, of course, we come to your findings. You suggest that the tyres on the M3 CSL are roughly equivalent to N1 tyres in GT4 and that the tyres on an Integra Type-R are roughly equivalent to N3 tyres. Would this mean you also believe the tyres on real life Integra Type-Rs are grippier than those on real life M3 CSLs? If so, I think you're very much mistaken. The tyres on CSLs are getting towards semi-slick track tyres. Customers have to sign a form when they buy the CSL stating they're aware that the wet weather performance of the car isn't up to much. The tyres on Integra Type-Rs are performance tyres, don't get me wrong, but they're nowhere near as grippy on dry, warm tarmac as the CSL's tyres are.
 
amp88
shawtyoner
I know that i am way late posting this, i did read a thread on this that i just found dated back in early 2005 but i just felt like resurfacing this topic. There was much debate posted on this topic, but i still cant get it out of my head as to which N tire suits which car to make it as close to stock as possible. Now i know there are alot of factors invloved as to realistic issues, but when i buy a car in GT, why couldn't it just come with "stock" tires, instead of it already coming with S2 tires slapped on to it and making us figure out which N tire is closest to stock.
Just for fun, i compared times to BMI "Rotary Reborn" and "Factory Fighters". I took 3 types of cars, 1 FR, 1 FF and 1 AWD.
The track: Tskuba.
BMI Lap times: M3 CSL — 1'06'99, Integra Type-R (DC5) — 1'09'34, Evo VIII MR GSR — 1'06'54.
GT MODE

I chose Tskuba because its a great test track and the drivers on BMI know that track like the back of their hand so you know that the lap times are pretty spot on when it comes to time attacks.
I did a few laps with each testing out all N tires (aids off), i didn't drive edge of my seat style or to conservative either, just tried to get the best line possible. My results were actually pretty interesting. I matched each time for each car "in the same second range" using different N tires for each. The FR car i tested matched its 1'06 time using N1's. The FF car matched it's 1'09 time using N3's. And the AWD matched its time of 1'06 using the N2's. It seemed that using different N tires other then the ones i used to match each time were either to fast or to slow. It boggled my mind. I also did secondary tests using an RX-8 Type-S (FR) which laps Tskuba in the 1'11's and got the same result using the N1's. Using N2's on it laped Tskuba 2 seconds faster, and 4 seconds faster using n3's

So to conclude, for me at least, FR cars should be equipped with N1's, AWD cars with N2's and FF cars with N3's to get the most realistic driving experience. I'm sure people will disagree but try it out for yourself. Either way i LOVE GT and am hoping GT5 will learn from and surpass GT4!
Click to expand...
I disagree with your findings. In GT4, I think it's safe to assume the only differences between N1, N2 and N3 tyres are grip level and wear rate. An N3 tyre provides more grip than an N2 tyre which in turn provides more grip than an N1 tyre. I think most people are agreed on these?

Using several different laps from real life performed on several different days with possibly different drivers and trying to match those times in a game where the weather conditions and driver are always the same is already introducing too much of an error, IMHO.

Then, of course, we come to your findings. You suggest that the tyres on the M3 CSL are roughly equivalent to N1 tyres in GT4 and that the tyres on an Integra Type-R are roughly equivalent to N3 tyres. Would this mean you also believe the tyres on real life Integra Type-Rs are grippier than those on real life M3 CSLs? If so, I think you're very much mistaken. The tyres on CSLs are getting towards semi-slick track tyres. Customers have to sign a form when they buy the CSL stating they're aware that the wet weather performance of the car isn't up to much. The tyres on Integra Type-Rs are performance tyres, don't get me wrong, but they're nowhere near as grippy on dry, warm tarmac as the CSL's tyres are.
Click to expand...
I commend you for your efforts shawtyoner, however, as Amp pointed out, there are several variables that you are not accounting for that would severely effect the outcome of your tests.

As I am sure its been mentioned before, if you want to know what tire in GT4 best matches the tire fitted by the factory for each model year car in real life, then you'll have to evaluate each one individually, because not EVERY FR/MR/FF/AWD car in real life is fitted with the same kind of tires. Making that kind of generality immediately wipes out any accuracy in comparing GT tires to real life tires.

I still applaud you for your efforts, and look forward to reading future game analysis reports you have to offer. 👍
 
if the physics/algroythm used by gt4 was more realistic... then the times would be much closer. but thats obvious.
 
I think too many people put an emphasis on 'lap times' as opposed to 'car handling' when trying to determine what tires to run and I think this needs to be taken into account. I mean, so what if N1 tires on a certain car gives comparable lap times around a given track, but induces the car to handle in a way that would never occur in RL? I think there is a fine line between the two and it's too hard to find an 'exact' answer...at leat IMHO that is!


This is always an interesting topic nonetheless! Keep the feedback/discussion going!
 
I totally agree with you AMP88, it makes no sense, which is why it's frustrating to me that i have to use grippier tires on an integra to produce a realistic lap time and use a less grip tire on a high performance machine such as a CSL to match its real life lap time. That's one of my main beef's with GT, ALL cars should be equipped with their original spec tires, so that we the gamers know how each car performs in relation to the other cars in the game. I just wanna compare cars that i like to drive against each other, but how can i if i don't know which N tire to use. Thanks for ur reply. Sorry about posting a new thread, i honestly thought that was a very old thread that nobody read anymore since it's last entry was in april 05. Didnt even show up when i performed a search on it here, had to google it to find a thread on stock tires.
 
Thanks DIGITAL and AMP88 for your replys. Im honestly glad people are still into this subject and wanna keep discussing it because i actually like to drive each car in GT in its stock form, it makes u appreciate the difference of driving an early model 300ZX in its natural form compared to a brand new 350Z. The bummer is just not knowing which tire to use, even though most people say its N2's. Again, just wish that PD included a "stock" tire for each car. Just wanted to know what other people thought on the N tire theories. Sorry for bumping the thread again, will continue to post here, if a moderator wants to kill that other thread, feel free. GT4LIFE
 
shawtyoner
Sorry for bumping the thread again, will continue to post here, if a moderator wants to kill that other thread, feel free. GT4LIFE
Click to expand...

Rather than simply killing off the other thread (which does have a few interesting bits in it) I will merge it with this one.

Just a short note for the future (and welcome to GT Planet), its OK to post in old thread and bring them back as long as the post is valid, and your certainly was.

You may also find this of interest, its a series of tests I did on teh BMW M3 looking at which tyres come closest to 'real' in terms of grip.

GT4 - An analysis of tyre choice - click to view

Hope you find it of interest.

Regards

Scaff

BTW - @ALL - The double posts above are a result of the thread merge - you do not need to report them
 
shawtyoner
That's one of my main beef's with GT, ALL cars should be equipped with their original spec tires, so that we the gamers know how each car performs in relation to the other cars in the game. I just wanna compare cars that i like to drive against each other, but how can i if i don't know which N tire to use.
Click to expand...

But the original spec tires are probably the least important thing about the car. I do see your point, but people who are actually competing in these cars (not demonstration time attacks for magazines or for videos) won't run the original spec tires anyway.

My real-life competition car ('03 Evo 8) has competed on six different sets of tires, and the performance has varied greatly from set to set. Some tires are better in wet, some are better on concrete, and some are better on gravelly asphalt. I've won autocross trophies on each of the six sets, including the factory tires, but I wouldn't say that the car's performance on the factory tires is representative of its true capabilities.
 
I personally think the N tires are pending per car. I mean, why include more than one Normal tire set then? I just wish they would of kept the "Simulation" tires instead of making three sets of street tires. When I drove my EVO VIII at the 'Ring today, (in the game, obviously) I tried using N2's, but they felt NOTHING like a good performance street tire would feel like, they were to squirmy and they felt to numb for supposedly having very rigid sidewalls. It wasn't the lack of grip, (because they had plenty to give) it was the feeling (or lack of) you got when you pushed hard, the car became very unpredictable. Then I threw on a pair of N3's, WOW! The grip was essentialy the same but the car didn't feel like it was rolling over on it's sidewalls anymore, it felt like a real performance street tire. I'll try to run some more... um runs on the 'Ring later on with some different cars.
 
Thanks for supplying the link to your prior testing of N2 and N3 tires on the M3, was a great read, wish i had read it before. Have you done any other testing, lets say on FF cars? In my experience so far, FF's seem to have incredibly lousy grip with N2 tires.
 
Much thanks Scaff or that read as well, really enjoyed it, feels like forever since i last played the early GT's. I guess N2 tires are closest to real world driving, on a track that is, its not remotely close on the 1/4 mile strip. Just wanted to compare times that i've placed when i use to have my 01' Type-R, spinning my front wheels all through first gear, i still placed a 15.8. Try doing that in GT and you won't even come close to breaking 16's. But that's a whole other debate. Thanks again for your feedback.
 
I'm impressed with your work ! This is for me interesting reading. I also think this is kind of "reserch" GT5 producers read and use in their work towards the next Grand Turismo!

-go Ricky go Ricky
 

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