Whats the final word on the physics??

[Saidur_Ali]

And oh look, @Saidur_Ali asked Dan Greenawalt directly after the last discussion we all had on this very same subject. My thanks for proving my point on that from before, as now I have good solid proof that 900° is 1:1 with the physics of FM6 when using normal steering.

Won't be the first time he stated something incorrectly, was hoping he would clarify what simulation steering is given this is what he said for FM4:

Finally, we added the “simulation steering” option. This option removes all of the controller aides. There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller, but there were several on the console controller. With these aides removed, you will no longer get help finding the right counter-steering angle. If you over-countersteer (meaning you overcorrect by steering into the angle of the slide), the wheels do as commanded. This usually results in a wicked tank-slapper. Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences.

IMO all goes down to the physics, where majority of people on here who play the game find it unrealistic when on "simulation" steering whether wheel or pad user. You mention Assetto Corsa, that to me has really good physics and handling characteristics of cars are awesome. Grips quite well, FM5 and FM6 Demo felt opposite in characterics where rear end seems to want to step out all the time. Doesn't feel like you are in a car but like steering a shopping trolley.

Looks strange movement when looking at replays too or when driving onboard. The unstability of cars reminds me sort of some GT5/6 tunes people do for active steering use, very loose where rear end is about to step out with smallest of weight transfers but once steering is set to mild or strong, becomes very stable. One way of getting around handling characterisics but I don't find that enjoyable.

Think personally Simulation is probably better for pad to stay competitive regarding laptimes as the speed sensitive steering rate is quicker than Normal for me in demo, wonder if they changed it for the full game. Normal might be quicker for cars that are super unstable though. For a wheel, probably better to stay on Normal for help in countersteering. Disappointing going by what Ialyrn said, handling and input seems to still suffer the same way like FM4: Link

 

[Ialyrn]

For a wheel, probably better to stay on Normal for help in countersteering. Disappointing going by what Ialyrn said, handling and input seems to still suffer the same way like FM4

When a wheel is in use with Forza, there is no counter steer aid present. Regardless of the whether normal or sim steering is in use. I did say this in the exorbitantly long post I just made 43 minutes ago.

With regards to the wheel though, the counter steering aid is just not present, regardless of the input setting used.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

When a wheel is in use with Forza, there is no counter steer aid present. Regardless of the whether normal or sim steering is in use. I did say this in the exorbitantly long post I just made 43 minutes ago.

So what is difference between Simulation and Normal, why is one easier than the other when it comes to countersteering? I wonder what Dan meant in that post regarding adding of Simulation steering on FM4. As I understand, not much has has changed in implementation since FM4 updated version regarding the steering options - Normal and Simulation.

 

[ImaRobot]

IMO all goes down to the physics, where majority of people on here who play the game find it unrealistic when on "simulation" steering whether wheel or pad user. You mention Assetto Corsa, that to me has really good physics and handling characteristics of cars are awesome. Grips quite well, FM5 and FM6 Demo felt opposite in characterics where rear end seems to want to step out all the time. Doesn't feel like you are in a car but like steering a shopping trolley.

It has nothing to do with the physics. No one is saying anything about the physics being unrealistic on simulation steering.

Looks strange movement when looking at replays too or when driving onboard. The unstability of cars reminds me sort of some GT5/6 tunes people do for active steering use, very loose where rear end is about to step out with smallest of weight transfers but once steering is set to mild or strong, becomes very stable. One way of getting around handling characterisics but I don't find that enjoyable.

I'm not really sure what you mean on this section, can you explain?

Think personally Simulation is probably better for pad to stay competitive regarding laptimes as the speed sensitive steering rate is quicker than Normal for me in demo, wonder if they changed it for the full game. Normal might be quicker for cars that are super unstable though. For a wheel, probably better to stay on Normal for help in countersteering. Disappointing going by what Ialyrn said, handling and input seems to still suffer the same way like FM4: Link

It would vary from person to person, it would all come down to personal preference. You can be faster on normal, or you can be faster on simulation. Being fast is not isolated to just one mode. Still, I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that what @Ialyrn said has anything to do in common with that article, that is suggesting that Simulation is Drift mode, and that it just makes all cars oversteer. I just tried sim steering again the other day, and it was not making me oversteer all over the place.

 

[Ialyrn]

So what is difference between Simulation and Normal, why is one easier than the other when it comes to countersteering? I wonder what Dan meant in that post regarding adding of Simulation steering on FM4. As I understand, not much has has changed in implementation since FM4 updated version regarding the steering options - Normal and Simulation.

Its like I said to you the last time we had this same discussion. Sim steering is designed for control pad user, not wheel users. It is for people who want a more "direct" response in terms of handling on that particular input device. The game is able to tell if someone is using a wheel or a control pad, and it only applies the hidden aids to the latter.

When using the wheel, the counter steer aid and the speed sens steering is removed. Has been the same since FM4. Not sure about Forza titles before that however, it may have been different in older versions. I was always happy to play Forza with a control pad till FM5 released, which is when I noticed the physics where more in line with what I had experienced in pc racing sims. Only reason I jumped on the TX wheel when it released. When that broke however, I replaced it with a G27 to use on the PC and went back to the control pad on Forza. Hence why I now have the G920 for the Xbox.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It has nothing to do with the physics. No one is saying anything about the physics being unrealistic on simulation steering.

What I see is many peole saying outcome of their inputs whether a pad user or wheel user to them is unrealistic and blame goes on the simulation steering rather than physics.

I'm not really sure what you mean on this section, can you explain?

Basically steering aids can help control cars that are really unstable.

It would vary from person to person, it would all come down to personal preference. You can be faster on normal, or you can be faster on simulation. Being fast is not isolated to just one mode. Still, I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that what @Ialyrn said has anything to do in common with that article, that is suggesting that Simulation is Drift mode, and that it just makes all cars oversteer. I just tried sim steering again the other day, and it was not making me oversteer all over the place.

On the TT I did on the demo, it was impossible to carry the same amount of speed in some of the corners so I switched to Simulation and it became much more easier to mach the top people in cornering speeds.

Did you read what she said like this part?:

As I said above however, none of them feel like Forza does with Sim steering in use. The cars don't try to jack knife on you when applying a tiny amount of counter steer. And the same goes for real life. I have lost the back end before in a real car, and applying counter steer did not leave me facing the opposite direction. It allowed me to bring the car back under control safely, and I was able to continue on my way without even stopping. Under the same circumstance in Forza however, it would have left me facing the wrong way under the best case scenario, or in a tire wall at the worst.

Its like I said to you the last time we had this same discussion. Sim steering is designed for control pad user, not wheel users. It is for people who want a more "direct" response in terms of handling on that particular input device. The game is able to tell if someone is using a wheel or a control pad, and it only applies the hidden aids to the latter.

When using the wheel, the counter steer aid and the speed sens steering is removed. Has been the same since FM4. Not sure about Forza titles before that however, it may have been different in older versions. I was always happy to play Forza with a control pad till FM5 released, which is when I noticed the physics where more in line with what I had experienced in pc racing sims. Only reason I jumped on the TX wheel when it released. When that broke however, I replaced it with a G27 to use on the PC and went back to the control pad on Forza. Hence why I now have the G920 for the Xbox.

So what is difference for wheel users?

 

[ImaRobot]

What I see is many peole saying outcome of their inputs whether a pad user or wheel user to them is unrealistic and blame goes on the simulation steering rather than physics.

Because it's not the physics that are changing, it's the input method. The physics are not what is causing the cars to get hypersensitive steering and twitchyness. I'm not sure how you're getting confused about that. If it was the physics, then it would effect normal steering the same exact way, and there wouldn't be a need for simulation steering.

Basically steering aids can help control cars that are really unstable.

Ok, and what about them, in relation to what you posted? You didn't elaborate anything.

On the TT I did on the demo, it was impossible to carry the same amount of speed in some of the corners so I switched to Simulation and it became much more easier to mach the top people in cornering speeds.

Good for you, so you found one that works better for you. It wasn't my case, however. I was the pretty much running same speed in both situations. It's not making slower without, its not making me faster with. I prefer the one with a more realistic approach in relation to the peripherals available.

Did you read what she said like this part?:

Yes. And you ask why?

EDIT:

IMO all goes down to the physics, where majority of people on here who play the game find it unrealistic when on "simulation" steering whether wheel or pad user. You mention Assetto Corsa, that to me has really good physics and handling characteristics of cars are awesome. Grips quite well, FM5 and FM6 Demo felt opposite in characterics where rear end seems to want to step out all the time. Doesn't feel like you are in a car but like steering a shopping trolley.

So in relation to this comment, Pcars must have bad physics as well, considering the horribly optimized pad settings that it had out of the gate. Considering that the same problems that plague sim steering, where also a problem if you never optimized the control settings.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

This describes my experience with normal steering. I've never encountered a skill ceiling on normal steering, and I'm one of the top 200 or top 100 drivers on FH1 Rivals boards (my preferred Forza game, and for the record, I don't have an XBone, I'm just contributing to this discussion on Forza's steering modes). I know @SlipZtrEm is up there too. Some of those times cramped my hands; they were hardly a point-and-go affair. One errant flick and the lap may be trashed.

It's worth mentioning that I've developed the skill of using quick taps of the joystick to make small corrections on console racing games for basically 20 years. That's a problem for simulation steering, but almost all console racing games are designed to be played that way, so I'm inclined to stick with it. To turn the last sentence of your post around: simulation steering may be the most thrilling out of the box, but it didn't take many corners before I felt dissatisfied by the way reactions are amplified.

Just to clarify the paragraph you quoted, I acknowledge that it's possible to be perfectly comfortable with simulation steering, and for all I know, I could get comfortable with the post-update simulation steering in FM6.

This absolutely nails what I was going to say. How Normal steering feeds my inputs into the game is consistent with how other games do it. GT6, prior to the Forza series, was my personal gold standard for how the pad responded to inputs. Driveclub, once past the initial learning curve, is similarly good (though the cars have some more weight to them, and I "feel" the difference between slip and grip more so than in the comparatively uncommunicative GT6). FM6 lets me know what each wheel is doing. I don't need to look at the tire indicator to know I've overheated the outside front; the controller tells me that beforehand.

Simulation steering seemingly aims to replicate (or rather, encourage) how a wheel user will feed inputs into the game (being far more thoughtful about the exact angle of the wheel during countersteering, compared to the tapping most players do, in all games, with a stick). While I understand how T10 could arrive at the "Simulation" tag for that, it feels wholly unnatural to how most other racing games have dealt with the situation prior to this. @Ialyrn covered things far more thoroughly than I can here, but the idea I'd like to focus on from her excellent post is this: with Normal steering, a car driven in FM6 feels largely the same as it does in other games. A 458 is a 458 is a 458. With Sim steering, it feels like a whole other car.

I've no problem with people wanting more difficulty for the sake of it. That's what Sim steering is. But this is an input issue, not a physics one.

 

[VXR]

If there's one thing normal steering on FM6 has done, it has give me back some confidence in driving my own car. Using sim steering on FM5, for some strange reason I don't think I felt as confident in pushing on when behind the wheel, whereas since 6 dropped, I've leant on my car harder than ever.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Because it's not the physics that are changing, it's the input method. The physics are not what is causing the cars to get hypersensitive steering and twitchyness. I'm not sure how you're getting confused about that. If it was the physics, then it would effect normal steering the same exact way, and there wouldn't be a need for simulation steering.

The physics aren't changing, I haven't said anything different. The car reaction to your inputs is done by the physics, it is doing as you command and many people on here find that unrealistic and don't think consequences of their input is realistic whether wheel or pad. Forza 3 had some aids, in FM4 they got removed fully AFAIK after an update and that made the handling unrealistic on Simulation what appears to be for a lot of people and still seems to remain the case all the way up to FM6. I remember Tiff's 458 FM4 video, have a very similar impression of how I find Forza handling.

Twitchy is the handling characteristic being exhibited, I even feel it under Normal on the Forza titles I played although quite a bit dampened. Seeing some of responses on here, sensing a bit of deja vu with this comment Dan made in 2011:

I don't mean to be insulting, but novice drivers tend to over-estimate their driving abilities. They'll say, "I've played a lot of these games, I'm an expert!", and they'll select simulation steering, no ABS, manual gears, they spin out they hit a wall and then they go "That's not real". Well, yeah actually that happened because it's real.

Ok, and what about them, in relation to what you posted? You didn't elaborate anything.

Does it really need elaboration? It's as simple as mentioned.

Good for you, so you found one that works better for you. It wasn't my case, however. I was the pretty much running same speed in both situations. It's not making slower without, its not making me faster with. I prefer the one with a more realistic approach in relation to the peripherals available.

It doesn't really work better for me, there is no option to increase steering rate for Normal so for Simulation, I have to just second guess the physics engine so I get as minimal oversteer moments. It was only way to go quicker for pad in the same sections of track, I would go as far as to say it is impossible with Normal on a pad for anyone to go as quick as you could on Simulation on pad in terms of maximum potential.

Yes. And you ask why?

Well why say it has nothing in common in the first place?

So in relation to this comment, Pcars must have bad physics as well, considering the horribly optimized pad settings that it had out of the gate. Considering that the same problems that plague sim steering, where also a problem if you never optimized the control settings.

That would be an input issue on Xbox One version of game, two very different things. Things like steering getting stuck at full steering lock is to me a genuine input issue.

 

[Ialyrn]

I would go as far as to say it is impossible with Normal on a pad for anyone to go as quick as you could on Simulation on pad in terms of maximum potential.

Actually, most of the top 10 road course drivers in Forza use normal steering on a pad. Often setting their fastest times in a multiplayer hopper. Some, Such as Raceboy77, set their fastest times without trying while live streaming and interacting with their audience.

 

[ImaRobot]

The physics aren't changing, I haven't said anything different. The car reaction to your inputs is done by the physics, it is doing as you command and many people on here find that unrealistic and don't think consequences of their input is realistic whether wheel or pad. Forza 3 had some aids, in FM4 they got removed fully AFAIK after an update and that made the handling unrealistic on Simulation what appears to be for a lot of people and still seems to remain the case all the way up to FM6. I remember Tiff's 458 FM4 video, have a very similar impression of how I find Forza handling

Like I said, if it was the physics, then the same traits would be able to happen in normal Steering. It is not that, no matter how much you pretend it to be. No one is talking about the consequences of the input, we are talking about the input method being to twitxhy and unrealistic giving the minor degrees of rotation we're allowed. If cars reacted like that at slow speeds, like it does in game, most people would have trouble going around a simple turn at regulated speeds.

Twitchy is the handling characteristic being exhibited, I even feel it under Normal on the Forza titles I played although quite a bit dampened. Seeing some of responses on here, sensing a bit of deja vu with this comment Dan made in 2011

You feel the same thing in normal steering, but to a slight degree? I can't say that I have. Not sure what the quote has to do with anything. We aren't complaining because we're spinning out, of that we can't control it. We're complaining about it not being more realistic because of the weird characteristics it has.

Does it really need elaboration? It's as simple as mentioned.

Good, then you shouldn't have a hard time explaining what you are talking about with the comparison you made to tunes.

Well why say it has nothing in common in the first place

Because it has nothing in common at all. She was not talking about drifting, she was talking about losing the car completely and spinning out with the over twitchness from counter Steering.

That would be an input issue on Xbox One version of game, two very different things. Things like steering getting stuck at full steering lock is to me a genuine input issue

The horrible controls is less of a bug and more if a customization issue. They want you to set it up how you'd like, and its obvious otherwise there wouldn't be PS4 users asking others for a better set up as well.

Still, you say its a physics issue. What exact part do you think it is, in relation to real life? What is it not doing that real life is?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Actually, most of the top 10 road course drivers in Forza use normal steering on a pad. Often setting their fastest times in a multiplayer hopper. Some, Such as Raceboy77, set their fastest times without trying while live streaming and interacting with their audience.

It can depend on car as mentioned before, only way I could compete with number one time was to use Simulation. Think someone like Daveyskills probably still uses pad and used Simulation steering. You can come close with Normal on pad whether close to top 10 or other high places on that TT I did on demo. Think Normal on wheel, number one times should be possible though as it doesn't have slow speed sensitive steering rate which is what slows down potential on pad.

Like I said, if it was the physics, then the same traits would be able to happen in normal Steering. It is not that, no matter how much you pretend it to be. No one is talking about the consequences of the input, we are talking about the input method being to twitxhy and unrealistic giving the minor degrees of rotation we're allowed. If cars reacted like that at slow speeds, like it does in game, most people would have trouble going around a simple turn at regulated speeds.

So say in telemetry it is showing as smooth inputs on say a pad or wheel using Simulation steering but car behaviour is unrealistic, that to me is very much a physics issue.

You feel the same thing in normal steering, but to a slight degree? I can't say that I have. Not sure what the quote has to do with anything. We aren't complaining because we're spinning out, of that we can't control it. We're complaining about it not being more realistic because of the weird characteristics it has.

But that's real as Dan would say regarding characterisics experienced.

Good, then you shouldn't have a hard time explaining what you are talking about with the comparison you made to tunes

Tune made so it is very pointy so car on the nose, very good at change of direction. Basically undrivable with direct steering but with a steering aid it is made to become drivable, that was example on how a steering aid can help while still running on same physics engine. Make something go from undrivable to reasonably stable and maybe perceived as normal handling.

Because it has nothing in common at all. I see you still have trouble actually reading things. She was not talking about drifting, she was talking about losing the car completely and spinning out with the over twitchness from counter Steering.

So you find following having nothing in common: "Do an oval track with a Mercedes C63 and you will fly off in every corner." Still see it is not me with the reading problem. Seems also a comprehension problem if you think that article was talking about drifting...

Still, you say its a physics issue. What exact part do you think it is, in relation to real life? What is it not doing that real life is?

Poor lateral grip.

 

[ImaRobot]

So say in telemetry it is showing as smooth inputs on say a pad or wheel using Simulation steering but car behaviour is unrealistic, that to me is very much a physics issue.

And, like I said, if it was a physics issue then it would be the same for both modes.

But that's real as Dan would say regarding characterisics experienced

Oh, you're only selective when you want Dan G. To be wrong or right.

une made so it is very pointy so car on the nose, very good at change of direction. Basically undrivable with direct steering but with a steering aid it is made to become drivable, that was example on how a steering aid can help while still running on same physics engine. Make something go from undrivable to reasonably stable and maybe perceived as normal handling

That sounds extremely preposterous. So instead of making a good tune with the assists on, they made a bad tune with the assists off, and it works good with the assists on? Are you sure they didn't just make a good tune with the assists on?

So you find following having nothing in common: "Do an oval track with a Mercedes C63 and you will fly off in every corner." Still see it is not me with the reading problem. Seems also a comprehension problem if you think that article was talking about drifting

It even mentioned just calling the mode drift mode.. That's where I got the term from.

Poor lateral grip

Where is the rest of this sentence?

 

[Speedster911]

This conversation again? Ok then.

So, for a little context, I am a 30 year old gamer (31 on the 21st). I have been gaming since I was 4 years old, my favorite genre of game is of the motor racing variety (realistic, arcade, fantasy such as F-zero and wipeout and the old fave of "extreme-G" on the N64), and I have played them on every type of input method available (this includes a keyboard only). I also grew up at a seaside here in the UK, and so I have a ton of experience racing with a wheel from playing racing games in the local arcades. And I have owned a fair few different wheels over the years, including a Thrustmaster TX, Logitech G27, and more recently a Logitech G920 wheel. I have a full UK Cat-B manual driving license.

The racing games I currently play are many, including some of the older ones from days gone. Most noticeable ones from the last couple of years however are Forza (horizon and Motorsport), GT, Assetto Corsa, Pcars (few years as I am a WMD insider), I racing, Rfactor 1/2, Race Room (and many other titles from Simbin). There are not very many racing games about that I have not played, from Rally to road circuit, to open world. I love racing games.

With that said, and I am being very serious here. Either T10 are spot on with regards to the "sim steering" setting being realistic......... or every other sim based racing game in the world is categorically wrong! And lets not forget real life, as sim steering in Forza doesn't even feel like that at all with sim steering turned on while using a wheel.

I have not come across any racing game in the last 26 years that feels like Forza does with that one setting changed. The main thing that Sim steering does in Forza is remove the counter steering assistance, but at the same time it has the adverse effect of making things very sensitive within the first few degrees of movement. This is the same when using a 900° wheel or the default x1 control pad. This makes things very cumbersome when trying to apply any counter steer to keep a car going where you want, and will often cause the car to swing around in the opposite direction very easily.

Regardless of that however, I can drive perfectly fine with sim steering. I am not slower or faster with it turned on, but I do have to be more mindful of my steering input. The thing here is, is that to really do well with sim steering turned on, you have to turn with the throttle. As this will counter act the sensitivity at the first few degrees of movement. This is because Sim steering still uses some speed sensitivity, something that doesn't change much between to the input modes. I even ran a few laps today, and with the change T10 made in the January content update, this is still the same. What sim steering does though, is not making the game and the inputs more realistic, it is increasing the difficulty for difficulty's sake.

My driving style on a gamepad has been perfected over many a year, and my preferred method is to push the thumbstick forward and use the rim as a buffer of sorts. I am very smooth with a control pad, to the point that when I was not even using a wheel, I would have everyone say that I had to be using one because my inputs where too smooth to be from the xbox control pad. This is going back to FM1 on the original Xbox. I learnt this trick with the thumbstick back when the dual shock came about on the playstation.

When compared to the likes of Assetto Corsa/Iracing/Rfactor, especially when using a racing wheel. The snappy behavior of sim steering in forza does not exist in them. In terms of handling characteristics between the games, Normal steering in Forza is eerily similar to the way those other games feel. To a point.

Take Assetto Corsa for example. If I drive the F458 in that game, and drive the same car/track combination in Forza. I feel as though I am driving the same car. They handle the same, they react the same to my inputs. If I brake hard and late and turn in aggressively, then the car will happily spin out. Or the GT86, the same thing again. The only thing that lets Forza down in this regard, is the ffb on a wheel, which is worse. With regards to a controller however, and assuming it is set up correctly. Then Assetto Corsa on a gamepad feels a lot like Forza when using normal steering. If they had the same level of graphics, then I would swear I was playing the same game for the most part. Obviously Assetto is better than Forza in the physics department though, but then again it has much more CPU/GPU/Ram headroom to work with, so more things can be simulated more accurately.

It is also a similar story with iRacing, and if I take a race car from both games out back to back, they again feel eerily similar. With iRacing feeling the better of the two.

As I said above however, none of them feel like Forza does with Sim steering in use. The cars don't try to jack knife on you when applying a tiny amount of counter steer. And the same goes for real life. I have lost the back end before in a real car, and applying counter steer did not leave me facing the opposite direction. It allowed me to bring the car back under control safely, and I was able to continue on my way without even stopping. Under the same circumstance in Forza however, it would have left me facing the wrong way under the best case scenario, or in a tire wall at the worst.

This is not to say that I don't sometimes bin it with normal steering however, and it is possible to do the same thing. With regards to the wheel though, the counter steering aid is just not present, regardless of the input setting used. One thing that remains however, is the snappy sensitive feeling within the first few degrees of movement with sim steering turned on.

As for the cars feeling the same with normal steering in use on Forza, this is just plain wrong. You can get cars to feel similar to a point with tuning, as most people tend to tune their cars in a similar fashion to one another. But stock for stock between the two controller input options, each car has its only personality and handling characteristics. As I said above, the main thing to change with sim steering on, is the counter steering aid being removed.

Another thing I have noticed in this thread, is the stating that sim steering gives the wheel 1:1 movement within the game. This is the same between both modes. The only issue with sim steering, as I have mentioned countless times with this very same train of discussion in other threads on here. Is that it feels sensitive around the center. This has also being discussed before.

And oh look, @Saidur_Ali asked Dan Greenawalt directly after the last discussion we all had on this very same subject. My thanks for proving my point on that from before, as now I have good solid proof that 900° is 1:1 with the physics of FM6 when using normal steering.



All in all. The only thing that changes, is the hidden controller aids. Which, to be quite frank, are needed when the thumbstick is only emulating 180° of steering rotation. Yep, thats right, just 90° left and 90° right total on the thumbstick.

Forza isnt the only racing game that has these hidden aids however, even GT does. And most other console racing games. There is an exception to this though with regards to Pcars, which allows you to adjust those things to personal preference.

The thing here is though, is that most people who play racing games on a console (both arcade and sim based), they just want a pick up and play experience. And to a point this is even the same on PC racing sims. It is far better to just be able to plug in the desired controller, start the game, and get right into it without having to worry about controller settings.

@ImaRobot @Nielsen @SlipZtrEm @Speedster911

Sorry for the long post, but after reading the last few pages, I felt that it was needed.

p.s to see the full twitter conversation, you will need to click on it.

Oh I enjoyed reading that! How you been Ialyrn? Pretty much on the same boat here - turning 36 this year, been playing racing games and driving sims since 5. Unfortunately, I haven't had a good go at them with wheels, only exception being when I got meself a Mat Catz on the PS1 which soon got trashed due to friends coming over and getting aggressive with it.

Countersteering with normal is as easy and cake - you just flick it in either direction and the car's straight again. On sim, you have to find that sweet spot to either powerslide out of a turn or correct it so can get the most traction and speed out of a turn.

Anyways, you want to do Rivals sometime? I don't do Xlive Gold, so that's the only way we can go head to head. What say?

Won't be the first time he stated something incorrectly, was hoping he would clarify what simulation steering is given this is what he said for FM4:

"Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences."

Uhh... what?! That's misleading! NO, you do not get to go full lock to lock and live with the consequences cos' that stupid speed sensitive steering and turning bug kicks in if you dab the brakes too hard or want to take a turn at say 30 mph, but the game feels you should slow down to 20 mph in order to get more lock.

I not sure if this was the case in F4 and 5 too, but in 6 when you break traction even at low speeds, the steering no longer responds, until you do regain traction, and that's when the game magically lets you steer again. This happens at any speed and mostly rear-engine and mid-engine cars, irrespective of normal or sim.

 

[Nielsen]

I got meself a Mat Catz on the PS1 which soon got trashed due to friends coming over and getting aggressive with it.

Really? It's the only wheel I've ever owned and the exact same thing happened to mine about 17 years ago. Some friends wanted to try GT1 with it. Should've sent them home instead.

 

[Ialyrn]

Countersteering with normal is as easy and cake - you just flick it in either direction and the car's straight again. On sim, you have to find that sweet spot to either powerslide out of a turn or correct it so can get the most traction and speed out of a turn.

While drifting with sim steering, you have to allow the car to do its own thing before you attempt to counter steer at all. By this I mean you need the thumbstick either turning into the corner itself, or sitting in a neutral position, in other words dead center. And you have to keep it like this for a shot time, which is actually counter intuitive and not how it works in real life, or in other simulation based racing games. This is because of how sensitive those first couple of degrees of movement are while using sim steering.

While drifting with Normal steering however, you are able to apply counter steering right away, which is what you should be able to do with sim steering. Fair enough that normal steering, on a game pad anyway, has an assist for this. On a wheel however, there is no counter steer assist in place on normal steering. Just like there is no speed sensitive steering assist. It is all down to the person controlling the car.

How you been Ialyrn?

Ive been ok, just busy with life.

Anyways, you want to do Rivals sometime?

Would you happen to be "Speed Demon996"? I have seen that name on the Forza Forums, and the posts are almost the same as yours word for word.

 

[Ialyrn]

While drifting with sim steering, you have to allow the car to do its own thing before you attempt to counter steer at all. By this I mean you need the thumbstick either turning into the corner itself, or sitting in a neutral position, in other words dead center. And you have to keep it like this for a shot time, which is actually counter intuitive and not how it works in real life, or in other simulation based racing games. This is because of how sensitive those first couple of degrees of movement are while using sim steering.

This part of my post only seems to apply to the xbox one game pad at this point. Yesterday when I tested out sim steering, I only did so on the game pad, due to time constraints. And I found it to be the same as it always was.

When it comes to the wheel however, things seem to be much improved. I just hooked up my G920 wheel to have a few laps, and so I decided to also test out sim steering with the wheel while I had everything connected. In doing so I was able to notice right away that most of the twitchyness around the center has all but gone. I have tested so far with a stock E30 M3, a stock Honda NSX, and my drift tuned S13. All at 900° of steering rotation. More testing still needs to be done, such as with FWD and AWD cars. Plus I need to see if this is still the case at lower than 900° of rotation, such as when I would be driving the Lotus F1 or other race cars. If all goes well with my testing, then on the wheel at least, I may switch over to using "sim steering" as the default. At 900° of rotation, it feels the same as with normal steering now.

In hindsight I should have tested both the wheel and the gamepad. Oh well, live and learn lol.

 

[ImaRobot]

Anyways, you want to do Rivals sometime? I don't do Xlive Gold, so that's the only way we can go head to head. What say?

Be careful, she's fast

Uhh... what?! That's misleading! NO, you do not get to go full lock to lock and live with the consequences cos' that stupid speed sensitive steering and turning bug kicks in if you dab the brakes too hard or want to take a turn at say 30 mph, but the game feels you should slow down to 20 mph in order to get more lock.

I not sure if this was the case in F4 and 5 too, but in 6 when you break traction even at low speeds, the steering no longer responds, until you do regain traction, and that's when the game magically lets you steer again. This happens at any speed and mostly rear-engine and mid-engine cars, irrespective of normal or sim.

What I've noticed recently, is that it seems to be linked to the Vibration/feedback of the controller. It happens mostly for me when I go over a curb, lock up the brakes, or sometimes even going lock to lock. If it happens during a race, I noticed that if you try to break traction again, it usually fixes it. I've noticed it's not restricted to engine placement, nor drive type, it'll effect everything.

Because I noticed the link between the problem and controller vibration, I tried lowering the in game vibration to 80%, and it seems to have stopped for the time being.

 

[Ialyrn]

To carry on from my last posting and more testing, when the DOR of my wheel is set below 720°, things start to go wrong again with regards to sim steering. The overly sensitive center begins to return slowly as you go to lower and lower DOR settings, so Sim Steering is still relatively no good in terms of a wheel. So for the moment I will continue to use Normal. But I will keep checking out sim steering when T10 do more updates, as you never know. Things could change.

 

[RacerPaul]

How do you feel about F5's sim steering? It feels a bit more direct and realistic to
me (perhaps even less twitchy), compared to real-life high speed steering inputs

I like FM5's physics better than FM6's

 

[Saidur_Ali]

And, like I said, if it was a physics issue then it would be the same for both modes.

Why would different inputs cause same car behaviour?

Oh, you're only selective when you want Dan G. To be wrong or right.

This is a mode implemented since FM4 to be more realistic. Not much has changed in over 4 years so I think it is safe to assume T10 are trying to simulate realism with that option.

That sounds extremely preposterous. So instead of making a good tune with the assists on, they made a bad tune with the assists off, and it works good with the assists on? Are you sure they didn't just make a good tune with the assists on?

They might make a 'good' tune with the assists on, that really ain't good technically but works due to steering aid having super fast reactions to any oversteer moments.

It even mentioned just calling the mode drift mode.. That's where I got the term from.

They mentioned it as drift mode due to how difficult and oversteering all the cars are, they might as well call it that in their opinion.

Where is the rest of this sentence?

I haven't explored why in depth. Anyway saw this post recently, I wonder if he is on to something there regarding physics: Link

Also a casual perspective on handling and difficulty of FM6 compared to say pCARS: Link

Uhh... what?! That's misleading! NO, you do not get to go full lock to lock and live with the consequences cos' that stupid speed sensitive steering and turning bug kicks in if you dab the brakes too hard or want to take a turn at say 30 mph, but the game feels you should slow down to 20 mph in order to get more lock.

I not sure if this was the case in F4 and 5 too, but in 6 when you break traction even at low speeds, the steering no longer responds, until you do regain traction, and that's when the game magically lets you steer again. This happens at any speed and mostly rear-engine and mid-engine cars, irrespective of normal or sim.

Most likely talking about wheel controllers. Quite infuriating playing with a pad due to how the speed sensitive steering works.

 

[ImaRobot]

Why would different inputs cause same car behaviour?

Thank you for acknowledging it as an input problem. Different inputs would definitely cause different behavior. However, if it was the physics like you mention, the behavior would still be noticeable with either.

This is a mode implemented since FM4 to be more realistic. Not much has changed in over 4 years so I think it is safe to assume T10 are trying to simulate realism with that option.

So, like I said, you're very selective when you want Dan G to be wrong or right, as long as it supports your opinion.

They might make a 'good' tune with the assists on, that really ain't good technically but works due to steering aid having super fast reactions to any oversteer moments.

So then your original statement doesn't make any sense. You said they made a tune that is undriveable without aids, but it works good with aids. Maybe they're just making a tune with the assists on. Why are you explaining how Aids work, we already know what they do. They make harder to drive cars, easier to drive, with or without tunes.

They mentioned it as drift mode due to how difficult and oversteering all the cars are, they might as well call it that in their opinion.

Yes, so nothing has to do with what she wrote, like I said. It's your reading comprehension not mine that is the problem. Like always though you try to blame everyone else for not understanding the things you pretend to be real.

Lets look at her post.

As I said above however, none of them feel like Forza does with Sim steering in use. The cars don't try to jack knife on you when applying a tiny amount of counter steer. And the same goes for real life. I have lost the back end before in a real car, and applying counter steer did not leave me facing the opposite direction. It allowed me to bring the car back under control safely, and I was able to continue on my way without even stopping. Under the same circumstance in Forza however, it would have left me facing the wrong way under the best case scenario, or in a tire wall at the worst.

Now, lets look at that article.

The steering mode "simulation" let all cars oversteer more easily. Even the slowest Nissan Datsun 510 going uphill on Fujimi Kaido will oversteer easily although the power of the car is not enough to go higher than second gear most of the time. Do an oval track with a Mercedes C63 and you will fly off in every corner. Tim Schrick mentioned the tendency to oversteer the virtual M5 already on his comparision to the real car and he was using the old simulation mode.

I think the problem is not the oversteering but calling the mode "simulation". If T10 would have chosen "drift mode" it would have been more appropriate and still makes sense as it is fun to play. Remember: difficult not equal to realistic.

So you still have a reading problem obviously, because what she wrote and what that article wrote have nothing in common. He is talking about initial turn in oversteer, while she is talking about countersteer. So, please learn to read through everything before you start posting comments on it.

If you want to have more realistic car behavior and be faster than in the old simulation mode, you need to turn the steering mode to "normal" now.

This is one I'd like to point out specifically. You linked an article that only favors my point in how I think of normal mode. More realistic.

I haven't explored why in depth. Anyway saw this post recently, I wonder if he is on to something there regarding physics: Link

So really, you have no idea. You throw out a word to try to fool everyone on why you think the physics are wrong, but you can't even explain it? You really can't add one single bit of context? I would suggest stop making claims if you have no way to describe them. How could you even make a claim if you yourself haven't even explored what it is?

 

[Speedster911]

Be careful, she's fast

What I've noticed recently, is that it seems to be linked to the Vibration/feedback of the controller. It happens mostly for me when I go over a curb, lock up the brakes, or sometimes even going lock to lock. If it happens during a race, I noticed that if you try to break traction again, it usually fixes it. I've noticed it's not restricted to engine placement, nor drive type, it'll effect everything.

Because I noticed the link between the problem and controller vibration, I tried lowering the in game vibration to 80%, and it seems to have stopped for the time being.

Now that I think about it I've also experienced instances where the vibration in the controller during a turn would suddenly go numb and the wheel no longer turns in the cockpit.. you understeer right off the track.

I gave the vibration reduction a go - I think the steering may be a bit more responsive with better turn in while trail-braking. Will have to test it out more extensively to really see the difference.

I like FM5's physics better than FM6's

I do too mate, absolutely - more nuanced physics in F5 and less forgiving when you're careless. Also, the cars seem to have a better sense of weight.

Most likely talking about wheel controllers. Quite infuriating playing with a pad due to how the speed sensitive steering works.

Absolutely boggles me why the devs are so stubborn in introducing adjustable options or simply turn off this dumb controller assist. I say let the player driver however he/she wants and live with the consequences. I don't ever remember GT's speed sensitive steering introducing annoying situations where you just can't steer to save your life.

I think I'll go to PCARS for a while, though I do not like the bland look of the game and boring sound design (the race cars sound good, that's about it).

 

[Willicks]

Just my opinion but WOW. Just got F6 and an Xbox One (special edition console with car noises, so cool haha) and I just love the driving. I've been a Forza man for about 6 years having previously been a GT man, I went back to GT6 at the start of December and even got a cheap DFGT and kind of enjoyed it. But after getting into GT6 I can say that it's just not realistic. A bloody MX5 snaps when sliding, trust me, they don't in real life. In real life cars have progressive grip and in car you just don't attack the controls much, but in GT6 it's like a fight. Forza 6 on the other hand seems spot on. Smooth inputs with smooth responses. So much fun. Again it's only an opinion but this game works for me!

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Thank you for acknowledging it as an input problem. Different inputs would definitely cause different behavior. However, if it was the physics like you mention, the behavior would still be noticeable with either.

Acknowledged that there are two different inputs, Normal != Simulation. I hope that is easy enough for you to comprehend. It is noticeable with either:

So, like I said, you're very selective when you want Dan G to be wrong or right, as long as it supports your opinion.

Struggling to see how that is very selective, something that T10 have added to the Forza series since 2011 and something that has remained largely the same. Don't think he has said anything different since then regarding what to expect from Simulation steering, if I'm very selective then surely you can show me different?

So then your original statement doesn't make any sense. You said they made a tune that is undriveable without aids, but it works good with aids. Maybe their just making a tune with the assists on. Why are you explaining how Aids work, we already know what they do. They make harder to drive cars, easier to drive, with or without tunes.

The whole point was regarding how effective steering aids can be. Again not reading what is being said / comprehending, common theme developing here.

Yes, so nothing has to do with what she wrote, like I said. It's your reading comprehension not mine that is the problem. Like always though you try to blame everyone else for not understanding the things you pretend to be real.

Lets look at her post.


Now, lets look at that article.



So, like I said, you still have a reading problem obviously, because what she wrote and what that article wrote have nothing in common. He is talking about initial turn in oversteer, while she is talking about countersteer. So, please learn to read through everything before you start posting comments on it.


This is one I'd like to point out specifically. You linked an article that only favors my point in how I think of normal mode. More realistic.

I'm glad I have that "problem" and prefer my "pretend" reality. I'm assuming you are being serious but couldn't help but find what you wrote amusing. So he wasn't trying to countersteer when getting oversteer. OK, very strange then that he gives advice on lowering rotation to be able to make ultra fast movements. If you could do as you say (Bolded), that would be great.

So really, you have no idea. You throw out a word to try to fool everyone on why you think the physics are wrong, but you can't even explain it? You really can't add one single bit of context? I would suggest stop making claims if you have no way to describe them. How could you even make a claim if you yourself haven't even explored what it is?

Well the claim being thrown around is a long-standing input issue by many on here, not a physics issue. So yet to see anyone showing the problem with input visually whether telemetry, steering wheel or front wheels movement using wheel or pad (Preferably with wheel).

Now, like Dan mentioned it can feel very twitchy, that to me is car behaviour expected so not really surprised the way cars behave. That to me is a physics issue. Kunos said this about netKar Pro 1.0

I think the driving was quite tricky. The tyre model was not very good in v1.0, the cars were twitchy, very weird at high slip angles.

Sure does ring a bell...

Absolutely boggles me why the devs are so stubborn in introducing adjustable options or simply turn off this dumb controller assist. I say let the player driver however he/she wants and live with the consequences. I don't ever remember GT's speed sensitive steering introducing annoying situations where you just can't steer to save your life.

Indeed.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Well the claim being thrown around is a long-standing input issue by many on here, not a physics issue. So yet to see anyone showing the problem with input visually whether telemetry, steering wheel or front wheels movement using wheel or pad (Preferably with wheel).

Considering the majority of people saying Simulation steering is an input issue are talking about the controller (myself, @Wolfe, @ImaRobot, @Ialyrn), why do you keep insisting on looking at the wheel?

I've yet to see you show anything to back up your claim this is a physics issue. Surely not actually having the game might have something to do with it.

 

[ImaRobot]

Acknowledged that there are two different inputs, Normal != Simulation. I hope that is easy enough for you to comprehend. It is noticeable with either

Oh, so you're still going to go along with a claim about the physics being wrong, but then not be able to back it up at all? Got it. That video shows nothing other then the guy doesn't know how to drive. I took the same exact car to Nurburgring for an 8 lap endurance race. It did not exhibit anything close to that. I have a question though; how can you argue against something so much, when you have absolutely no experience with it? You're posting videos and post of other peoples opinion, yet you have nothing to post of your own?

You say it is also noticeable in normal mode? I'm sure you have something to back up that claim, right?

Struggling to see how that is very selective, something that T10 have added to the Forza series since 2011 and something that has remained largely the same. Don't think he has said anything different since then regarding what to expect from Simulation steering, if I'm very selective then surely you can show me different?

Because not even a few post earlier when someone quoted Dan G, you went on how he's wrong sometimes and that we shouldn't take that to heart. Yet you post a quote and totally ignore what you just said? That is why you're very selective with what Dan G writes, as long as it supports your opinion.

The whole point was regarding how effective steering aids can be. Again not reading what is being said / comprehending, common theme developing here.

I did read it, exactly how you posted it. I gave you an example that your dismissing. It sounds absolutely ridiculous that you think they made a bad tune with no assists with the thought that it's going to be a good tune with aids on. That's just dumb.

I'm glad I have that "problem" and prefer my "pretend" reality. I'm assuming you are being serious but couldn't help but find what you wrote amusing. So he wasn't trying to countersteer when getting oversteer. OK, very strange then that he gives advice on lowering rotation to be able to make ultra fast movements. If you could do as you say (Bolded), that would be great.

Man, did you even actually read that? He is talking about a low powered vehicle drifting all over the place when turning in, not countersteer. He specifically mentions the oval, and flying off of it. In order to fly off the track, he will have to fly on the inside of the turn, only hinting more at the fact that hes talking about oversteer, not countersteering. He did not once mention the over twitchness from countersteering, to coincide with what @Ialyrn posted. They are not talking about the same thing. The english language is obviously not your 1st language, so take the time to actually read through things and understand it. Still, this has been a problem you've had forever, and it's obvious to anyone that has come into contact with you.

Well the claim being thrown around is a long-standing input issue by many on here, not a physics issue. So yet to see anyone showing the problem with input visually whether telemetry, steering wheel or front wheels movement using wheel or pad (Preferably with wheel).

Now, like Dan mentioned it can feel very twitchy, that to me is car behaviour expected so not really surprised the way cars behave. That to me is a physics issue. Kunos said this about netKar Pro 1.0

You made the claim about it being physics. Explain it. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke. It's likely you have no idea what part of the physics it is, so that'll explain why you haven't (or can't is the more obvious answer) even got into detail. Please add something that is actually yours, instead of going around posting blind quotes and links to things that are irrelevant.

I don't expect much from you in this department though. No matter what proof is provided that proves you wrong, you ignore it. Every time it comes down to you having to explain and go into detail about some ridiculous claim you made, you disappear. You have turned into the new @Zer0

I just dont understand how someone can make an argument, yet none of the instances, videos, posts, quotes, examples that are being explained are nothing of your own, but everyone elses. It's extremely odd, and just makes it seem like you have a hidden(not so hidden) agenda.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Considering the majority of people saying Simulation steering is an input issue are talking about the controller (myself, @Wolfe, @ImaRobot, @Ialyrn), why do you keep insisting on looking at the wheel?

I've yet to see you show anything to back up your claim this is a physics issue. Surely not actually having the game might have something to do with it.

So I should take your word for it and others, something that is happening since FM4 with no proof that input is causing it? Ialyrn talked about both wheel and pad. Insist on wheel as that does not have the speed sensitive steering pad has so easier to see directly what is wrong with input.

You can see video of Alan Boiston talking about handling, he does have the game. That was with Normal steering and he talked about Simulation too. I got the same impression from the demo. If that is a sign of realistic physics, then yeah it doesn't have a issue but yet to see in reality such a car behaving like that before. So you tag Wolfe about it being an input issue, does he have the game? I've played FM2, FM3, FM4, FM5 and FM6 demo and a huge number of other racing games. So will what I say be more valid regards FM5 just due to owning it?

Oh, so you're still going to go along with a claim about the physics being wrong, but then not be able to back it up at all? Got it. That video shows nothing other then the guy doesn't know how to drive. I took the same exact car to Nurburgring for an 8 lap endurance race. It did not exhibit anything close to that. I have a question though; how can you argue against something so much, when you have absolutely no experience with it? You're posting videos and post of other peoples opinion, yet you have nothing to post of your own?

He seems to consider himself an expert automotive gamer, why can he drive better in pCARS and Assetto Corsa for example? I guess I don't know how to drive too then as I found similar characteristics in the demo. If Forza had what I considered decent physics, I would say so myself. It would be in my interests too, got over two years Gold subscription that is going largely to waste. I do find it terrible though like what the Hamilton brothers probably think of Forza. I'm a fan of them and also Tiff so if my opinion aligns up with them, happy with track I'm on.

Because not even a few post earlier when someone quoted Dan G, you went on how he's wrong sometimes and that we shouldn't take that to heart. Yet you post a quote and totally ignore what you just said? That is why you're very selective with what Dan G writes, as long as it supports your opinion.

Showed contradiction on what he said. If there is a selection on the topic to choose from regarding what Dan writes, show me something where he says the opposite so it supports your opinion and not mine. Can't imagine him saying they were trying to simulate opposite of reality but you never know I guess...

I did read it, exactly how you posted it. I gave you an example that your dismissing. It sounds absolutely ridiculous that you think they made a bad tune with no assists with the thought that it's going to be a good tune with aids on. That's just dumb.

It was about tunes for active steering use, could be tested out in both ways for all I know. I was telling you how I found them tunes to drive and impact of the steering aid.

Man, did you even actually read that? He is talking about a low powered vehicle drifting all over the place when turning in, not countersteer. He specifically mentions the oval, and flying off of it. In order to fly off the track, he will have to fly on the inside of the turn, only hinting more at the fact that hes talking about oversteer, not countersteering. He did not once mention the over twitchness from countersteering, to coincide with what @ialryn posted. They are not talking about the same thing. The english language is obviously not your 1st language, so take the time to actually read through things and understand it. Still, this has been a problem you've had for ever, and it's obvious to anyone that has come into contact with you.

So a C63 AMG is low powered now? Your comments do make me laugh though, I'll give you that and know I'm not the only one.

You made the claim about it being physics. Explain it. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke. It's likely you have no idea what part of the physics it is, so that'll explain why you haven't (or can't is the more obvious answer) even got into detail. Please add something that is actually yours, instead of going around posting blind quotes and links to things that are irrelevant.

Given how poorly cars grip, would think there is some fundamental issue in the tyre model like I suggested with my "irrelevant" quote. Anyway seems if handling is unrealistic, it can be just blamed on input issue like for FM4, FM5 and now FM6 with no proof. Wonder how many more Forza games will have unrealistic simulation input. One would think it will be easy to fix an input issue by now especially by far the biggest development team in the genre. However do think physics are fundamentally flawed which I don't think is easily fixed, they probably need to do something like Microsoft did with move from Internet Explorer to Edge IMO.

 

[ImaRobot]

He seems to consider himself an expert automotive gamer, why can he drive better in pCARS and Assetto Corsa for example? I guess I don't know how to drive too then as I found similar characteristics in the demo. If Forza had what I considered decent physics, I would say so myself. It would be in my interests too, got over two years Gold subscription that is going largely to waste. I do find it terrible though like what the Hamilton brothers probably think of Forza. I'm a fan of them and also Tiff so if my opinion aligns up with them, happy with track I'm on.

Whatever he considers himself is irrelevant, he can't drive that car and it's apparent. Like I said, I took the same exact car to the Nurburgring Endurance races and it drove pretty damn well. I specifically went on and picked that car solely because of that video because I wanted to see what the issue was. I even had a -9% impact of grip due to a dare/mod card I was using.

Showed contradiction on what he said. If there is a selection on the topic to choose from regarding what Dan writes, show me something where he says the opposite so it supports your opinion and not mine. Can't imagine him saying they were trying to simulate opposite of reality but you never know I guess...

I don't care what he wrote either way. I'm just saying you're very selective with what you want Dan G to be wrong or right about.

So a C63 AMG is low powered now? Your comments do make me laugh though, I'll give you that and know I'm not the only one.

I never said it was. I talked about both instances of what he is talking about. So again, if you had payed attention to that, it would have been easy to tell.

It was about tunes for active steering use, could be tested out in both ways for all I know. I was telling you how I found them tunes to drive and impact of the steering aid.

Yes, but we already know that aids make cars easier to drive. That wasn't what we were talking about.

Although, I do like that you mention that you're not the only one that thinks that about me. I've not really got into something and make blank claims that I can't back up, and then pretend that I'm right. If I make a wrong claim, then I have no problem admitting I'm wrong, unlike yourself. You've ingored proof from @SlipZtrEm, @Ialyrn, and me in the past, and that's just off the top of my head.

Given how poorly cars grip, would think there is some fundamental issue in the tyre model like I suggested with my "irrelevant" quote. Anyway seems if handling is unrealistic, it can be just blamed on input issue like for FM4, FM5 and now FM6 with no proof. Wonder how many more Forza games will have unrealistic simulation input. One would think it will be easy to fix an input issue by now especially by far the biggest development team in the genre. However do think physics are fundamentally flawed which I don't think is easily fixed, they probably need to do something like Microsoft did with move from Internet Explorer to Edge IMO.

It's not the handling that is unrealistic though. I'm not saying the handling model is weird, but I'm saying the input model is. So are the ones talking about it here. So who are these people blaming the handling model, besides you?

You're idea of what correct physics are so off that it's ridiculous. At one point, weren't you talking about knowing about the forces of a car and how it should feel and drive as a passenger, and be able to get the feeling for the car just as good as the driver? You're claims from physics in the past are more of what you believe to be true, rather than what is actually fact. You make these judgements because you said you where a passenger in a fast car at one time.

To put emphasis on that, You've quite literally said that you can get a feel for a car, how it drives, and its handling characteristics, not by driving it but by sitting in the passenger seat. Ridiculous.

This post sums you up perfectly.

You are the perfect example of the type of person who is fast in a video game, and assumes they know a lot about real world driving because of it.

Your "method" is guess-work. Nothing more. Presenting it as anything other than that is misleading, so you can stop now.

Even more so, when questioned about your actual driving experience(not racing, but just practical driving) you even mentioned that you've hardly even driven.

So can you answer this yet?

You made the claim about it being physics. Explain it

I've yet to see you show anything to back up your claim this is a physics issue. Surely not actually having the game might have something to do with it.