Whats the final word on the physics??

[SlipZtrEm]

So I should take your word for it and others

Why would that be a stretch for you? You've already shown you're comfortable with simply accepting other peoples' opinions with no experience yourself.

Oh. It's because those ones line up with your pre-conceived notions.

something that is happening since FM4 with no proof that input is causing it?

There's an easy way to illustrate the difference between Sim and Normal steering in FM5, in absence of FM6. Simply take a car capable of easily-repeatable oversteer on track and turn on the telemetry.

In your own words, what is the difference?

Ialyrn talked about both wheel and pad. Insist on wheel as that does not have the speed sensitive steering pad has so easier to see directly what is wrong with input.

You're intentionally ignoring the point.

You are conflating physics with input.

The issue many of us have here is with the sim steering being difficult simply for the sake of it on the controller. It in turn causes cars to feel less realistic, because driving out in the real world isn't the spiky, unpredictable mess that steering mode turns a lot of cars into. The game isn't countersteering for the player in Normal mode: it is smoothing the inputs with buffers so that players don't go immediately to full lock on the tiny thumbstick. Every game I can remember playing does something similar: I know GT does, as does Driveclub.

You can see video of Alan Boiston talking about handling, he does have the game.

Stop pointing elsewhere. If it's so very obvious to you that the game has a physics problem, show it.

That was with Normal steering and he talked about Simulation too. I got the same impression from the demo. If that is a sign of realistic physics, then yeah it doesn't have a issue but yet to see in reality such a car behaving like that before.

Like @ImaRobot, I took the Z4 out to an endurance event and didn't have the same experience as in that video. What's more, I certainly didn't have the same experience with PCARS, with the cars being slip-sliding nightmares, and once they've got more than a few degrees of slip, they're impossible to catch.

So you tag Wolfe about it being an input issue, does he have the game? I've played FM2, FM3, FM4, FM5 and FM6 demo and a huge number of other racing games. So will what I say be more valid regards FM5 just due to owning it?

The difference is that @Wolfe isn't making a grand claim about the physics of the game he doesn't own.

So, again, you can to ditch the Zer0 impression, and actually show us some examples of how the physics are "fundamentally" broken.

 

[ImaRobot]

:

I've decided to give this a try. Here's a video from my rivals lap. I want to add that I have no assists on. I also have simulation Steering on as well, a mode im not familiar with, as I've been dabbling with it recently.

xboxdvr.com/gamer/lImaRobotl/video/14110517

Here, if your still having a benefit of the doubt, and still don't believe he's a bad driver, I also did it in the rain

xboxdvr.com/gamer/lImaRobotl/video/14110576

This one looks to line up a very, very, little bit better with the video you posted.... I guess. The elephant in the room is obviously the rain. Still using simulation steering

The thing I find funny is that in his video, he says he has assists on.

@Frizbe if you watch the second lap on the video @Saidur_Ali posted, during the bonnet cam on the second lap, you're the rival hes facing

Also, here's a video of a C63 on an oval. Also with simulation Steering.

xboxdvr.com/gamer/lImaRobotl/video/14110658

What a surprise!

 

[Ialyrn]

So I should take your word for it and others, something that is happening since FM4 with no proof that input is causing it? Ialyrn talked about both wheel and pad. Insist on wheel as that does not have the speed sensitive steering pad has so easier to see directly what is wrong with input.

So just what is happening then, in your own words? Make it crystal clear, and don't beat around the bush by using team VVV videos. State what is happening yourself, do not use anyone else influence or opinion.

If that is a sign of realistic physics, then yeah it doesn't have a issue but yet to see in reality such a car behaving like that before.

You have yet to see a car behaving like that in reality? Need specifics, or how can anyone know what you are talking about. You start of talking about something, and then wash over it without giving any details what so ever, and then move right on to something else. Is it any wonder why there is always a multiple page discussion between you and everyone else?

He seems to consider himself an expert automotive gamer, why can he drive better in pCARS and Assetto Corsa for example?

The guy from Team VVV can considered himself what he likes, doesn't change the fact that you are not articulating yourself correctly. And as such your point isn't even getting fleshed to the point we can understand what you are talking about.

If Forza had what I considered decent physics, I would say so myself. It would be in my interests too, got over two years Gold subscription that is going largely to waste.

This is a prime example of what I mean. You say you don't consider Forza to have "decent physics", and yet you give no detail as to why.

I do find it terrible though like what the Hamilton brothers probably think of Forza

If you are talking about Lewis and his brother, then you are speculating as far as I know. I am not aware of where those two have publicly discussed Forza 6 and its handling characteristics. If they have, then please provide a link to your source. If you do not have one, then it is best to keep speculative comments out of the discussion. As it will only compound the issue of you not giving us details in the first place.

and also Tiff

I cringed when Tiff reviewed FM4. He fell into the trap that lots of people do, and failed to take into account the loss of physical feedback that we only get in a real car. This is why to him the F458 didn't feel like the real car. As I have said countless times, in the virtual setting we have no fear factor, we can reset if we mess things up. We have no Gforce effecting our bodies, we don't feel the same things we do through the cars seat. As such we push harder than we would in the real world. Tiff has skills driving real cars, I have been watching him on TV since the original topgear series. But there are too many factors that he ignored in his review. Factors that people who can appropriately separate virtual from reality seem to understand.

Showed contradiction on what he said. If there is a selection on the topic to choose from regarding what Dan writes, show me something where he says the opposite so it supports your opinion and not mine. Can't imagine him saying they were trying to simulate opposite of reality but you never know I guess...

You asked Dan directly on twitter if normal steering on a wheel set to 900° is mapped 1:1 in game, Dan answered you by saying "1:1 in the physics, yes. In the driver and wheel caster animation, no.".
So in terms of the physics engine for FM6, where it counts, normal steering on a wheel is 1:1. The animation for caster and driver are arbitrary, as they are only there for visual effect.

And you in response to that, you said:

Won't be the first time he stated something incorrectly

This is what @ImaRobot is getting at. You say that Dan, a game dev for Forza, the head of T10, is wrong about how HIS and HIS teams games works on some things. But then say that he is right about how HIS and HIS teams games works on other things. You can not have it both ways, he is either right or wrong on it all. And at the end of the day, it is his game.

Finally, we added the “simulation steering” option. This option removes all of the controller aides. There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller, but there were several on the console controller. With these aides removed, you will no longer get help finding the right counter-steering angle. If you over-countersteer (meaning you overcorrect by steering into the angle of the slide), the wheels do as commanded. This usually results in a wicked tank-slapper. Also, initial turn-in is direct and linear. This can feel very twitchy. When you command the game to go lock to lock-to-lock, it assumes you mean it and lets you live with the consequences.

You have asked me to prove that "Sim Steering" is intended for use on a control pad, I cant. But similarly, you cant prove that it is intended to be used on a wheel. Regardless of that however, this is just an assist. Normal steering on a controller has filtering in place, it provides a damper for countersteering, and it has a fair amount of speed sensitive steering assistance. These are all things that are all but required on a device that uses only 180° worth of steering rotation. AKA an xbox game pad's thumbstick.

In the same breath, Dan states himself that "There were very few of these aides on the wheel controller". As I have said before, and this just backs up what I am saying in regards to it. A wheel just doesn't have the same layer of steering assists applied to it. There is no assistance with counter steering in normal steering with a racing wheel peripheral, there is no speed sensitive steering or filtering to control how fast turning force is applied. Other wise Dan wouldn't have told you personally via twitter that normal steering has full 1:1 mapping with a 900° wheel. I suppose in a way, Dan has actually provided the proof I need to show that "Sim Steering" isnt intended or needed on a wheel. At least where FM6 is concerned.

What you fail to comprehend in all of this though, is that the quote of Dan's you keep bringing up in here and other places. Is from the early days of FM4, the first game that T10 implemented "Sim Steering". Everything that is contained in that post in old information, and information that may not be anywhere near accurate when discussing FM5 or FM6. We can only speculate on if things regarding "Sim Steering" have changed or not since 2012. All I can tell you is, is that "Sim Steering" on a wheel just does not feel right.

What I am not going to do though, is get into another extended discussion with on on if it was intended for a wheel or a controller. Neither of us can post physical evidence up to substantiate our claims on that one. So we both might as well just drop it from the discussion, until such time as real hard evidence can be obtained.


Edit: I decided to take a page from your book Saidur, and as such I have asked Dan directly on Twitter if Sim steering is intended for use on a wheel or a game pad. Hopefully he will answer, but it is a very loaded question that he might just choose to ignore.

 

[SimTourist]

Pretty sure it says it right there in the game that sim steering is designed for wheel users.

 

[Ialyrn]

Pretty sure it says it right there in the game that sim steering is designed for wheel users.

Sigh...... No it does not, not in FM6 at least.

 

[GBO Possum]

Sigh...... No it does not, not in FM6 at least.

My reading of the words "please note this is difficult with a controller..." implies that it's principally intended for wheel use.

 

[Speedster911]

My reading of the words "please note this is difficult with a controller..." implies that it's principally intended for wheel use.

Well, not quite. If you get used to it, it's a breeze. It's all a matter of how much time, patience and practice you want to invest in it.

On a wheel though, it will definitely allow you to feel the physics better, though doesn't have to do anything with the physics, rather the steering model.

Slow, stable and steady: normal steering. Fast and responsive with more consequences: sim steering. Remains the same irrespective of whether you choose a pad or wheel. Choice is yours.

I prefer sim, but there are rare occasions when I do prefer and even welcome normal. Unfortunately during these "rare moments", I start to miss sim steering too much! The cars feel really alive on the track using sim.

 

[VXR]

Normal isn't slow, stable and steady though. You still lose the car, but it's more realistic in how you get it back. Steering is a fixed ratio per car. I don't want something so sensitive that I might as well be trying to wrestle a car with broken variable assistance.

 

[05XR8]

Interesting. I use a controller and used Sim steering straightaway after purchasing the game. Guess I'm one of the rare ones.

 

[Speedster911]

Normal isn't slow, stable and steady though. You still lose the car, but it's more realistic in how you get it back. Steering is a fixed ratio per car. I don't want something so sensitive that I might as well be trying to wrestle a car with broken variable assistance.

Right - well, I've observed how saving your car from a slide feels almost exactly the same on all RWD cars. It's just a slight flick of the stick and you're straight again, almost as if a magnet is preventing you from over-correcting in either direction. You can't afford this luxury on sim steering, but if normal helps you extract more fun or even realism out of the game, I say stick with it. Furthermore, countersteering on sim steering feels unique to every car - some you can save easily like the older muscle cars since they have such wide steering rack ratios, while the twitchier high-powered supercars you have to be careful with.

@Ialyrn is one of the best go-to people here to talk to (if you're interested) with regard to normal and sim on both pad and wheel.

 

[VXR]

I know she is and I read she doesn't speak highly of simulation steering.

 

[Overdrive003]

Interesting. I use a controller and used Sim steering straightaway after purchasing the game. Guess I'm one of the rare ones.

Ever since it was an option (I believe FM3 or FM4), I've had it set to sim steering and I use a controller as well. I don't think i've ever used normal steering. It's harder to master, sure, but it's a lot more fun driving the cars!

 

[05XR8]

Ever since it was an option (I believe FM3 or FM4), I've had it set to sim steering and I use a controller as well. I don't think i've ever used normal steering. It's harder to master, sure, but it's a lot more fun driving the cars!

That's how I feel. The days are over where I rush through a game and move on to the next. F6 is good and I'm immersed in the driving experience.

It's like watching videos of the F1 turbo era. The drivers correcting the wheel. Managing all that power. The car wants to go where it wants to. The driver is correcting it. I feel the "car" is communicating to me through that virtual steering "feel".

 

[Overdrive003]

That's how I feel. The days are over where I rush through a game and move on to the next. F6 is good and I'm immersed in the driving experience.

It's like watching videos of the F1 turbo era. The drivers correcting the wheel. Managing all that power. The car wants to go where it wants to. The driver is correcting it. I feel the "car" is communicating to me through that virtual steering "feel".

That's a good way of putting it! A lot of cars they're just like "you want to left? Nah I'm going right". That's what I love about sim steering, it keeps you on your toes so when you're doing a longer race, it isn't so monotonous.

 

[RPM Bibblefish]

The only difference i've noticed between normal and sim steering on the controller is countersteering, that's it. Everything else feels exactly the same to me.

 

[VXR]

That's a good way of putting it! A lot of cars they're just like "you want to left? Nah I'm going right". That's what I love about sim steering, it keeps you on your toes so when you're doing a longer race, it isn't so monotonous.

That would be fine for cars of that era, but it certainly isn't desirable in a relatively benign modern hatchback.

 

[05XR8]

That would be fine for cars of that era, but it certainly isn't desirable in a relatively benign modern hatchback.

Oh trust. When I had that snap lift-off oversteer, while driving a Rabbit GTI, I wasn't impressed. When that got fixed, joy came in the morning:

That's what I love about sim steering, it keeps you on your toes so when you're doing a longer race, it isn't so monotonous.

 

[VXR]

I really should try it again, as so many are saying it's changed for the better.

 

[Speedster911]

I really should try it again, as so many are saying it's changed for the better.

It has man, give it a try but be ready to exercise patience.

By the by, just for experimentation sake, I switched to normal steering yesterday and played for a good few hours. It does feel very natural and everything, but the countersteering is just too damn easy. It's just one flick and that's it.. every car just corrects itself.. its as if "normal" was programmed to prevent the player from overcorrecting and never ever experience a tank-slapper...ever!

Ain't quite this easy countersteering a highpowered car IRL, trust me.

Edit: I do however, find it odd that countersteering speed increases by default on sim steering. High time we had options to adjust these things, especially that stupid cap on steering while braking hard or not slowing down as much as the game wants you to, in order to get more lock.

 

[VXR]

I must be really hamfisted then, cause I still have tank slappers on normal. Anyone who watched me racing last night could attest to that lmao.

 

[FastFurious77]

I've been using simulation steering with controller because can't afford a wheel. I prefer sim steering because steering is more raw and less forgiving but it makes the cars feel more realistically controllable and challenging to a degree with a controller which makes the cars more fun to drive.

I'm not as technical as some other people here and I'm still not clear as to the difference between oversteer and understeer or lift off oversteer or understeer. Reasoning being I don't drive a real car, but I'm pretty good on a game at least.

 

[Speedster911]

I must be really hamfisted then, cause I still have tank slappers on normal. Anyone who watched me racing last night could attest to that lmao.

Tank slappers on normal.. youz kidding right!? Well then.. more practice is in order Sir! You're not in the habit of flicking the stick, are you, as opposed to controlling it with finesse and holding it at different angles? Taxes the palm and thumb I know, but immensely satisfying.

I've been using sim settings for everything, aids turned off and I use a controller. Using abs aswell. I prefer sim steering because steering is more raw and less forgiving but it makes the cars feel more realistically controllable to a degree with a controller which makes the cars more fun to drive.

I had a lot of fun yesterday driving all the Toyota cars. I've driven the rabbit too and other golfs their fun to drive too. I have to say I didn't detect any oversteer or understeer and I pushed some of them and I pushed some of the cars fairly hard. The mr2 gts for example didn't spin off that easily when pushing it round a corner.

Anyway I'm having to enable stability or traction control on some with the career mode on the night races because the nsx was tricky, and the nsx was easier to control without aids than the lotus Esprit which I found much trickier to steer with aids off for some strange reason.

You should play with ALL aids off to truly enjoy sim steering. Give it a go.

 

[FastFurious77]

Tank slappers on normal.. youz kidding right!? Well then.. more practice is in order Sir! You're not in the habit of flicking the stick, are you, as opposed to controlling it with finesse and holding it at different angles? Taxes the palm and thumb I know, but immensely satisfying.



You should play with ALL aids off to truly enjoy sim steering. Give it a go.

Yes I do. I have everything off for maximum credit payout. And every car so far has been truly enjoyable to drive. Some cars like nsx or lotus Esprit were tricky round corners. But I'm learning to apply tiny inputs with the Xbox one joystick.

 

[ImaRobot]

I've recently switched to simulation Steering these past few weeks, but only because I notice that the Dead Steering bug doesn't happen as much with that mode. I've gotten pretty used to it, and so far I've been able to match my times consistently, and have figured out how to come back from counter Steering, most of the time.

Going over puddles is still a bit hectic though.

 

[VXR]

@Speedster911 I get into tankslappers as I'm mostly throwing the car about to get photomode shots. When I'm driving carefully to put in decent laps for reviews, of course I don't get out of shape. I'm just not very fast.

 

[Wolfe]

The XB360 games never allowed you to get into tank slappers that build up into bigger ones, in either steering mode. In FM4, simulation steering actually makes it possible to swap directions very quickly without consequence. I always likened it to waving a feather duster around. The momentum never builds up into larger or uncontrollable swings, like it does in Enthusia or Live for Speed. That's one reason I never felt simulation steering was worth it, because in spite of the exaggerated potential for overcorrection, the game still holds your hand compared to other sims.

Based on video of drifting in FM6, countersteer appears to have the same effect it did in FM4, evidenced by this impossible recovery with the rear wheels sliding over wet grass. I'm sure there's more examples to find because that was the first video I clicked on and I just skimmed through it. I'm sure FM6 has made improvements in other areas, but I'm disappointed to see oversteer recovery is still assisted in that way.

Personally, drifting will never feel right or as satisfying so long as Turn 10 leaves in that secret assist, and it messes with my driving whenever I make a slide and my trajectory is altered by the assistance.

 

[Speedster911]

I've recently switched to simulation Steering these past few weeks, but only because I notice that the Dead Steering bug doesn't happen as much with that mode. I've gotten pretty used to it, and so far I've been able to match my times consistently, and have figured out how to come back from counter Steering, most of the time.

Going over puddles is still a bit hectic though.

👍 Atta'boy, that's the spirit!

The more you play with this mode, the more you grow to like it and become an expert at making intricate corrections. It's just immensely satisfying, no better way to put it.

I hate those puddles - they totally mess up your racing lines. Pretty dumb idea having them to begin with. We could have had varying levels of rain instead, along with winds that affect handling. Wouldn't that be something?

@Speedster911 I get into tankslappers as I'm mostly throwing the car about to get photomode shots. When I'm driving carefully to put in decent laps for reviews, of course I don't get out of shape. I'm just not very fast.

Ah, you don't say.

The XB360 games never allowed you to get into tank slappers that build up into bigger ones, in either steering mode. In FM4, simulation steering actually makes it possible to swap directions very quickly without consequence. I always likened it to waving a feather duster around. The momentum never builds up into larger or uncontrollable swings, like it does in Enthusia or Live for Speed. That's one reason I never felt simulation steering was worth it, because in spite of the exaggerated potential for overcorrection, the game still holds your hand compared to other sims.

Based on video of drifting in FM6, countersteer appears to have the same effect it did in FM4, evidenced by this impossible recovery with the rear wheels sliding over wet grass. I'm sure there's more examples to find because that was the first video I clicked on and I just skimmed through it. I'm sure FM6 has made improvements in other areas, but I'm disappointed to see oversteer recovery is still assisted in that way.

Personally, drifting will never feel right or as satisfying so long as Turn 10 leaves in that secret assist, and it messes with my driving whenever I make a slide and my trajectory is altered by the assistance.

Wolfe man, you should give FM6 a go. Sim steering ain't what it is in FM4. Just get a FM6 and X1 bundle; there have been price drops. Just get it dude and jump on board.

Yes I do. I have everything off for maximum credit payout. And every car so far has been truly enjoyable to drive. Some cars like nsx or lotus Esprit were tricky round corners. But I'm learning to apply tiny inputs with the Xbox one joystick.

I love mastering those rear and mid-engine cars - those can be tricky at high speeds, but the weight balance and transfer feels really precise so after a while you get to learn the limits and strengths of each car.

I'm absolutely loving, I mean truly loving how beautiful the handling is on the 458 Speciale. And man... that SOUND.

 

[Maxx2013]

I used to play FM6 with Sim Steering on the pad but since I got my G920 I've switched back to Normal Steering for most situations. I don't like how Sim Steering makes the wheel so sensitive around the center, and the FFB when counter-steering is pretty weird.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Based on video of drifting in FM6, countersteer appears to have the same effect it did in FM4, evidenced by this impossible recovery with the rear wheels sliding over wet grass. I'm sure there's more examples to find because that was the first video I clicked on and I just skimmed through it. I'm sure FM6 has made improvements in other areas, but I'm disappointed to see oversteer recovery is still assisted in that way.

What about this slide not caught?:


And this one?:


And this one?:

 

[05XR8]

I knew I should have kept the video of the pics below. I was doing everything possible to keep all my momentum in this race. I was doing perfect 4-wheel drifts. So balanced is the setup, no countersteering required.

I was/am also able to hold a line. I followed the AI bumper to bumper from corner entry to corner exit. Indeed, it os tough to shave speed while turning but, if it's done at the right moment, quite the reward.

Even while the car looks so awkward, I can "feel" it still remains balanced.