which is the most civilsed nation on earth?

[Max_DC]

Oh, boo hoo. Use spell check, more specifically, one with an English dictionary, not an "American" one.

Yes I could do that, but why should I ? Ususally people understand me and the amount of mistakes is Ok I think, so need for wasting my time....

Proof? I gave facts, where's yours?

What did you learn at school ? That is common knowledge, at least in Europe...

Oh, so danoff doesn't know what he is talking about? I would like to see you tell that to his face.

You might want to read that thread over again.

Well,....

The Kyoto agreement was crap, and I'm glad we didn't sign up. It wouldn't have done much more than waste money.

You should be hoping that we use more fossile fuels faster

Nuclear power is THE solution.

If I look at these valuable posts, I can just say, that I don't share his opinion...

So, you go around posting empty statements without facts? So much for your credibility...

Hey man, look them up and get yourself some knowledge... I study medicine and I have a lot work to do... I mean these are no secrets, you'll find them easily....
Ok it might me my job, since I wrote these " speculations" but....

Let me get this straight. You don't support the troops and you don't support the war, yet you state the troops are morally right to do what they do?

Don't you understand my point or do you just not want to ?

I say, that the American soldier X believes that he is in Iraq to bring freedom : To a certain degree he does, but that is not the reason he was sent down there....

 

[Solid Fro]

What did you learn at school ? That is common knowledge, at least in Europe...

If it's "common knowledge" in Europe, please enlighten me, for I am just a STUPID AMERICAN.

Hey man, look them up and get yourself some knowledge... I study medicine and I have a lot work to do... I mean these are no secrets, you'll find them easily....
Ok it might me my job, since I wrote these " speculations" but....

You tell me where to find these facts. Do not go around posting crap that you cannot backup, you will get called on it every time.

I say, that the American soldier X believes that he is in Iraq to bring freedom : To a certain degree he does, but that is not the reason he was sent down there....

So, now you're saying the best fighting men in Human history are now the most ignorant Humans in history?

I don't support the war and I don't support the troops, but I think you guys are morally right, even though you are too stupid to know what you're really doing!

Go study your medicine, you seem better at that than making a coherent argument.

 

[vladimir]

we can already see why the US is not the most civilized nation in this thread. most people from other countries name a different nation than their own...then the average americans come and name themselves...

Wrong.

The US followed UN Resolution 1441. The US did find WMD, I can make a list if you want to.

You don't want to hear it, that is why. From stockpiles of artillery shells filled with Sarin to French made cruise missiles and Russian made MiG fighters buried in the sand. All illegal under UN regulations.

you did not follow the UN, famine has already made that clear.

and there were no WMDs, there were a handful of 25 yar old grenade shells which contained traces of sarin.

i already asked you about the grenades last time, but surprise surprise, you did not respond...

Hospitals are not there to give free handouts. They are there to treat people. If people go there wanting free stuff, then they're going to the wrong place.

letting people die or suffer because they are poor is NOT civilised.

Oh, and convicted murders should not have the death penalty? How is that civilized?

that IS civilised as you must not kill (except if thats the only way to defend yourself).

What? I don't have a gun, my neighbors don't have a gun, my friends don't have a gun. Please, explain.

a huge part of the US population apparently thinks that they need a gun, you can't deny that.

Really? So, I guess we spent over $600 million, sent a carrier strike force, and a whole Marine division over to tsunami stricken south east Asia for what?

Rice patties?

i am sure the tomcats were a great help!

We been through the atomic bombs of WWII discussion already. The nuclear weapons used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were used instead of a full scale invasion of main land Japan (eclipsing the D-Day invasion of Normandy several times). The death projections were in the millions, for both sides. Either use a magical bomb that can end the war today or continue the war for another 5 years? You decide, Mr. Anti-War.

if you were through the discussion you should have learnt that it was not the bomb that ended the war but the conditions of surrender.

 

[Solid Fro]

you did not follow the UN, famine has already made that clear.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That's how I see Famine's postings about the UN. The UN is contradicting itself.

and there were no WMDs, there were a handful of 25 yar old grenade shells which contained traces of sarin.

Try several thousand rounds of artillery shells, plus such things as cruise missiles, MiG fighters, night vision goggles, etc., made illegal from UN restrictions placed on Saddam.

a huge part of the US population apparently thinks that they need a gun, you can't deny that.

Show me a statistic and I'll believe you.

i am sure the tomcats were a great help!

Incorrect.

Seems like you didn't watch the news coverage of the Tsunami. The aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln was used to shuttle medical supplies and doctors with helicopters into the area with a moment's notice.

if you were through the discussion you should have learnt that it was not the bomb that ended the war but the conditions of surrender.

The Japanese surrender was unconditional. The bomb on Nagasaki ended the war in the Pacific.

 

[Max_DC]

If it's "common knowledge" in Europe, please enlighten me, for I am just a STUPID AMERICAN.

Ok...

You tell me where to find these facts. Do not go around posting crap that you cannot backup, you will get called on it every time.

http://lexikon.freenet.de/Kalter_Krieg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021217-iraq02.htm
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd-de/B0000916TJ/reviews/302-5733376-2716843
http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID4073122_REF3,00.html

Go and translate the pages with :

http://world.altavista.com/

I didn't search long, not every link is the best source for argumentation, like the Amazon link but especially the last one is interesting for you....

So, now you're saying the best fighting men in Human history are now the most ignorant Humans in history?

I don't support the war and I don't support the troops, but I think you guys are morally right, even though you are too stupid to know what you're really doing!

Go study your medicine, you seem better at that than making a coherent argument.

Ah well, the soldiers don't hav a choice anyway, they have to fight... and being a good soldier doesn't necessary mean being smart, and no with having said this I do not want to say that all american soldiers are idiots....

 

[ledhed]

And you should not forget the fact that most of the demonstrating people were FAKE, all sent out by the Chinese government who doesn't want to give Japan a permanent place in the UN ( don't know the correct English term) " security council " and that's it... lying bastards you know just like little children... well however...

Honestly, I just waited that someone will name the USA in this topic...
Read through smelly socks posts and you will see why the USA certainly is not the most civilised country in the world... i would even say that it is on the last places : Sure, they did and do a lot for the world : Nobody can deny that, but they do 2 or 3 times more bad things than good ones and that is the problem :

All these wars ... freedom for the world, well yeah and you believe that or what ?
They fought for gaining power ( every war since WW2, except WW2 of course), Korea, Vietnam, supporting Afghanistan and Iraq against communists and Islamic influence; or for oil as Bush in the actual Iraq war....

Kyoto Protocoll : I don't know the exact figures, but I'd say the US is by far the worst destroyer of the environment in the world : They burn fossils like nobody else, have the highest emmission and their companies destroy the rain forests and
sell things like DDT still in third world countries...

All the third world countries are dependent on US companies who force the local farmers to buy their hybrid plants, that need special expensive treatment > all farmers are broke and 100% dependent on these companies.
In general the US capatialism is a hardcore agressive act, that doesn't care for anything else than profit....

Living in the US can be great if you have money and horrible if you are poor....
(> smelly socks posts)

Racism is a big issue in the US

300 million guns in private hands in the US... = civilised

US double morals : concerning sex, violence, murder, religion...

I could go on for hours... sorry but in this topic nobody can name the US without failing....

Notice, I am not Anti US or anything, because politics and economy are basically in the hands of the upper 10000, in every country of the world... The average US Citicen is not responsible for the things above, although you have - as every country has - a good percentage of complete idiots... but as I said, that'S the case in every country.... I mean I really believe the average marine, who says he fights for the freedom of Iraq or whatever... he risks his life for that and I respect that, but his boss sent him for oil and power and therefor abuses him....

You do not have a clue. This is a fictional account of a country in your mind.
BTW does not every adult in Switzerland own at least an assault rifle ? are the Swiss uncivilised ?

 

[vladimir]

Try several thousand rounds of artillery shells, plus such things as cruise missiles, MiG fighters, night vision goggles, etc., made illegal from UN restrictions placed on Saddam.

i have asked you for a source of those sarin gas shells several times...could you please give me one? from what i heard, they found some (rumsfeld stated he forgot the number) shells which they suspected to contain sarin, but after investigation they found out that they were already empty and only contained traces of sarin.
i'd also like to know more about those cruise missiles...

MIGs (did they even work?) and night goggles aren't exactly WMDs nor are they a reason to wage war.

Show me a statistic and I'll believe you.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050104-045728-3751r.htm
reasons for owing guns are predominantly hunting and safety. according to the NRA guns make america safer:
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=117
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=126
http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/Blackman.htm

Incorrect.

Seems like you didn't watch the news coverage of the Tsunami. The aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln was used to shuttle medical supplies and doctors with helicopters into the area with a moment's notice.

i appreciate that and the USA is definately one of the leading nations in helping all over the world. but that is something that all civilised nations do.

The Japanese surrender was unconditional. The bomb on Nagasaki ended the war in the Pacific.

http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

 

[Max_DC]

You do not have a clue. This is a fictional account of a country in your mind.
BTW does not every adult in Switzerland own at least an assault rifle ? are the Swiss uncivilised ?

Ok, then show me why I don't have a clue, point for point...
Well I didn't say the America is uncivilised, but it certailny is not No. 1 or No 10 or so... The weapon aspect is only one piece in the puzzle... well Swiss people have these weapons, but they don't use them as regulary as in the US... why? Because their social structure is stable, it is a small and rich country, it is rather easy for them...

 

[vladimir]

You do not have a clue. This is a fictional account of a country in your mind.
BTW does not every adult in Switzerland own at least an assault rifle ? are the Swiss uncivilised ?

the assault rifles are not owned by the people, they are owned by the swiss forces and given to every active soldier, which is everyone because of the draft.

 

[Danoff]

In my eyes, one very important measure of how civilized a country is is how much they oppress their people - how unfair their laws are to different citizens for arbitrary reasons.

Compared to the US most governments steal way more of their citizens belongings. That simply isn't civilized. A civilized nation is fair and free.

As for winning the public opinion battle, I really don't think that's necessary. Lots and lots of people can be completely wrong - especially when it is to their benefit to be wrong. If 75% of the people of the world think it is correct to abuse/oppress/steal from the other 25%, that doesn't make it any more civilized or moral. Incidently that's about what's going on.

People like vladimir or Max_DC think that it is civilized for a government to hand out "free" things to "poor" people. But they forget that those "free" things are stolen immorally . Now I'm not saying that the US is perfect about this, but it is better than... let's say Canada or the UK. A civilized country has strong voluntary charity (ehem US). A civilized country infringes the rights of its citizens less than those around it (US). A civilized country will have crime, and poverty, and be unpopular in the world due to human nature - but will address these issues in a moral , ethical , dare I say civilized manner, rather than resorting to legislated petty theft.

I stand by my response that the most civilized nation on Earth is

The United States of America

 

[Max_DC]

In my eyes, one very important measure of how civilized a country is is how much they oppress their people - how unfair their laws are to different citizens for arbitrary reasons.

Compared to the US most governments steal way more of their citizens belongings. That simply isn't civilized. A civilized nation is fair and free.

As for winning the public opinion battle, I really don't think that's necessary. Lots and lots of people can be completely wrong - especially when it is to their benefit to be wrong. If 75% of the people of the world think it is correct to abuse/oppress/steal from the other 25%, that doesn't make it any more civilized or moral. Incidently that's about what's going on.

People like vladimir or Max_DC think that it is civilized for a government to hand out "free" things to "poor" people. But they forget that those "free" things are stolen immorally . Now I'm not saying that the US is perfect about this, but it is better than... let's say Canada or the UK. A civilized country has strong voluntary charity (ehem US). A civilized country infringes the rights of its citizens less than those around it (US). A civilized country will have crime, and poverty, and be unpopular in the world due to human nature - but will address these issues in a moral , ethical , dare I say civilized manner, rather than resorting to legislated petty theft.

I stand by my response that the most civilized nation on Earth is

The United States of America

Amen...*standing up in front of my computer, right hand to my heart and shouting :* U S A - U S A - U S A - U S A
Honestly, I think that the USA should be called the most civilized nation in the universe.... If I think about it... God must be American, that's the only possible way... yeah please go on dominating the whole world and make us happy with your perfect ideas.....

Ah well it is a difficult subject indeed.... I didn't say that America has not its highlights... It is a facinating nation with a lot of positive aspects.... but living in America must make some people blind, the American propaganda machine seems to work great...
I mean you have a lot of critic voices in your country, too, obviously they don't play a lot of Gran Turismo...
Have a nice Republican day....

 

[smellysocks12]

You don't want to hear it, that is why. From stockpiles of artillery shells filled with Sarin to French made cruise missiles and Russian made MiG fighters buried in the sand. All illegal under UN regulations.

Show me the report / official statement.

Absolutely delusional.

I guess blowing yourself up and taking a school bus filled with children with you makes you a bonafied freedom fighter.

Nobody in Guantanamo bay has blown himself up in a school bus filled with children.

Nobody was given a fair trial either in which it was proven by legit evidence whether they had plans to do so.

Not to mention, any civilized country doesn't stoop to the level of the enemy if they did torture people.

No, they do not. You must wear a recognized uniform and symbol identifying yourself under the Geneva Conventions, not America's super-duper version. Terrorists do not wear such things.

Even if this is so, then it doesn't make you civilized when torturing people because "it is not forbidden by the rules in the geneva conventions".

You must earn your education, not pay for it. Looks like this is the beginning of Socialism.

EARN YOUR EDUCATION?? I guess any 5 year old should get a job to fund their own school money? Haha don't make me laugh.

Like I give a **** what the Netherlands did.

Yeah, this doesn't surprise me since you already came off as a line dancing patriotic hillbilly.

You said the US does nothing for other countries, unless it wants something. I gave you an example of the US helping other counties, without anything in return, and now you say it's not good enough because the Netherlands did it too?

👎

I didn't say it isn't good enough, I said this doesn't make the USA any more civilized than other countries. Which is true.

I wonder if the US caught Osama bin Laden tomorrow, would you want the death penalty on him? Or do you want him to rot away in a cell, fed, and clothed with your tax dollars?

Hmmmm...

Yeah I would want him to rot away in a cell, fed and clothed with my tax dollars (actually, euros in my case). If you can afford patriot missiles that cost a couple of million dollars each to nuke him, a reward of $25 million, then keeping him in a cell would also be affordable and more civilized. The point is to remove the threat, not to stoop to Al Quaeda's level by executing them.

By killing Osama Bin Laden you would probably only increase the problem, he would become a martyr and an idol to other potential terrorists. Another reason not to execute him, even if you're not looking at the humane factors. As a matter of fact, I'm sure Osama would prefer a lethal injection over life in prison.

Oh yeah! Base your whole hypothesis on Cowboy and Indian movies!

Yes, since the cowboy and indians movies are based on historic events.

Sorry dude, you just lost.

Yeah keep telling yourself that, stick your head a bit farther up George Bush's rectum and enjoy the narrowminded state you're in.

 

[Danoff]

Amen...*standing up in front of my computer, right hand to my heart and shouting :* U S A - U S A - U S A - U S A
Honestly, I think that the USA should be called the most civilized nation in the universe.... If I think about it... God must be American, that's the only possible way... yeah please go on dominating the whole world and make us happy with your perfect ideas.....

I don't belive in God, and America is not increasing its territory.

Ah well it is a difficult subject indeed.... I didn't say that America has not its highlights... It is a facinating nation with a lot of positive aspects.... but living in America must make some people blind, the American propaganda machine seems to work great...
I mean you have a lot of critic voices in your country, too, obviously they don't play a lot of Gran Turismo...
Have a nice Republican day....

I'm not a republican.

EARN YOUR EDUCATION?? I guess any 5 year old should get a job to fund their own school money? Haha don't make me laugh.

That's funny. No obviously 5 year olds do not need to earn their education. Their parents have an obligation to earn their education. But not in America. Here in America one of the things we do in an uncivilized way is steal money from others to support our childrens' education.

 

[smellysocks12]

So, that makes us uncivilized? There are plenty of things I don't give a rat's a*s about – does that make them wrong?

It's called not succumbing to peer pressure.

Nobody is saying that the USA is NOT civilized, I am just stating that the USA is far from being the most civilized country in the world.

 

[Max_DC]

I don't belive in God, and America is not increasing its territory.

Yeah but you should think about it, I mean, since you are the greatest nation in the world, you should share... Please invade Europe, I'll wait for you, waving an American flag ....

I'm not a republican.

Ah, what a pity, George would be proud of you

 

[Danoff]

Ah, what a pity, George would be proud of you

But I'm not all that proud of George. He's been invovled with some very poor legislation.

Yeah but you should think about it, I mean, since you are the greatest nation in the world, you should share... Please invade Europe, I'll wait for you, waving an American flag ....

We're not like that. But we have given you the recipe for success in Europe, you just haven't followed it.

Nobody is saying that the USA is NOT civilized, I am just stating that the USA is far from being the most civilized country in the world.

Well then who is? Canada? Canada steals way more money from its people. The UK? They oppress their people too. Who is more civilized?

 

[smellysocks12]

US is the most charitable nation on earth and probably in the history of the earth.

No they're not, when you take the percentage of foreign development aid when compared to the national income of the USA, you will see that this percentage is lower than any European country donates to development projects.

Fairly.

Some countries they can gain from fairly, others in an unfair way.

Fairly. The US steals less from its citizens to redistribute property unfairly than the other countries listed here.

Taxes isn't stealing when tax money is properly utilized. Stealing is giving large enterprises the opportunity to create some type of monopoly or the ability to underpay their employees.

Again, the US is top in foreign aid and has a strong record in foreign policy.

No they're not, when you take the percentage of foreign development aid when compared to the national income of the USA, you will see that this percentage is lower than any European country donates to development projects.

Who gives a rat's a*s?

A civilized country does, that's one of the things that being civilized is about.

Freedom.

That's subjective, you only know the level of freedom in the USA so you can't compare. Having the choice to choose between a right winged party and a more right winged party isn't exactly democratic, and in the USA you're not more free to do things in a lot of ways that you can in other countries.

Besides that, what does freedom have to do with history? Slaves still working the cotton fields less than 100 years ago, "N-word-ERS SIT IN THE BACK"-signs in buses until not that long ago. Yeah, afro Americans really enjoyed the freedom in American history...X.

 

[Max_DC]

But I'm not all that proud of George. He's been invovled with some very poor legislation.

Agreed

We're not like that. But we have given you the recipe for success in Europe, you just haven't followed it.

Ah well, wait some years... don't underestimate the EU or China... Economical success is a fragile thing...

Well then who is? Canada? Canada steals way more money from its people. The UK? They oppress their people too. Who is more civilized?

Why do you focus on taxes ? As if that was a main point when talking about civilization...it is maybe one little aspect, but not more...
And you know what ? They don't pay any taxes at all in the Emirates, health care is also free.... so if I follow your argumentation the Emirates would win...
You pick out the taxthing, because you have no arguments concerning the important issues...
Ah well, and as far as I know, you pay a lot of taxes after you die, which is not the case here in Germany for example... all nations need taxes ( well apart from the oil countries maybe), and the US government needs them, too... so I guess that you just don't realize that you pay a lot of taxes...

 

[James2097]

Smellysocks wins. Not because its a competition to bag out the USA, not because of his debating style or whatever... He wins because 90+% of what he says is factually correct, you would be a fool to argue further. Its completely impossible to debate him unless you WANT to kill any credibility you may have had if you'd just shut up and voted for either: Sweden, Switzerland, Canada, New Zealand. The French have too many dodgy deals and dodgy past (though they think they'd win), Australia (my country, I CAN see objectively) is more civilised than the US, but also has issues with how it treats illegal immigrants (currently) and Aboriginals (in the past). We also have 'some' crime, but far less than the US.
Those countries are pretty much the obvious choices guys. Forget the USA, its a great country but doesn't fit the criteria.


P.S. You can't be civilised if you spell it "civilized".
No one has mentioned the poms yet (I don't think). You would think they should be considered for such a list, they pretty much invented the concept of being cilivised, even the damn word "civilised" (if it wasn't the French)! The whole "British Empire" thing that happened a while back puts their nomination back a little however!

Edit: If we're willy waving about charitable donations, Australia gave $1billion (no strings attached, as the US might do) to the tsunami relief, eclipsing every other country by a large margin. 👍

 

[smellysocks12]

In my eyes, one very important measure of how civilized a country is is how much they oppress their people - how unfair their laws are to different citizens for arbitrary reasons.

Compared to the US most governments steal way more of their citizens belongings. That simply isn't civilized. A civilized nation is fair and free.

As for winning the public opinion battle, I really don't think that's necessary. Lots and lots of people can be completely wrong - especially when it is to their benefit to be wrong. If 75% of the people of the world think it is correct to abuse/oppress/steal from the other 25%, that doesn't make it any more civilized or moral. Incidently that's about what's going on.

People like vladimir or Max_DC think that it is civilized for a government to hand out "free" things to "poor" people. But they forget that those "free" things are stolen immorally . Now I'm not saying that the US is perfect about this, but it is better than... let's say Canada or the UK. A civilized country has strong voluntary charity (ehem US). A civilized country infringes the rights of its citizens less than those around it (US). A civilized country will have crime, and poverty, and be unpopular in the world due to human nature - but will address these issues in a moral , ethical , dare I say civilized manner, rather than resorting to legislated petty theft.

I stand by my response that the most civilized nation on Earth is

The United States of America

Taxes money is being taken from the citizens to be able to buy them things they couldn't do themselves. I guess using tax money to construct roads / railroads is stealing as well since everyone could buy their own little piece of highway? While most European countries charge more taxes on income and purchases, this money is being spent back on the population.

The USA government creates an environment which gives more free play to large corporations, making it possible for them to steal a lot of money from their employees. There are regulations, which is good, but if I read some of the posts Americans here made they even think those are too much already. That's ridiculous, these companies would take even more money from their employees and charge their customers even more once they put themselves in a monopoly position (which is possible, because those companies have a big influence on politics, since they fund the political campaigns). This money wouldn't be redirected to the population, this money will simply be invested to make the rich elite even more rich, so they can buy even more mink fur coats and diamond necklaces for their poodles.


Viper Zero, you're sad that you're trying to win the discussion by pointing out a German person's spelling faults. You should thank him on your bare knees that he's willing to have this discussion with you in your own language. If you think he can't back up his opinion well enough because of his spelling errors, you probably wouldn't mind to continue this discussion in German, right?

 

[Giancarlo]

Really? So, I guess we spent over $600 million, sent a carrier strike force, and a whole Marine division over to tsunami stricken south east Asia for what?

Don't forget the billions we spent to rebuild Europe after WWII.

Ah well, wait some years... don't underestimate the EU or China... Economical success is a fragile thing...

I think i heard somewhere that the Euro was failing? Is it?

I can't argue about China though. They're definitely on their way to world domination very, very soon.

 

[vladimir]

danoff,

i am sorry, but someone who says it was immoral to use wealthy people's money to treat poor people in hospital because they can't afford it by themselves and would have to die or suffer otherwise has not understood the basic idea of civilization and society...

you are aware that we are not talking about plastic surgery here, right?

 

[James2097]

danoff,

i am sorry, but someone who says it was immoral to use wealthy people's money to treat poor people in hospital because they can't afford it by themselves and would have to die or suffer otherwise has not understood the basic idea of civilization and society...

you are aware that we are not talking about plastic surgery here, right?

Exactly, a "civil" society does not let its people die (regardless of social status) when adequate resources are more than available to treat those who need it most. 👍

 

[smellysocks12]

I think i heard somewhere that the Euro was failing? Is it?

No, in first instance it caused the prices to raise more than usual inflation. Now the euro is doing good. Much better than the dollar, probably too good actually, because now our goods are expensive compared to American goods because of the transfer rate. For me it's good though, because I can import cheap cd's from the USA now.

The dollar used to be worth more than the euro when it was first introduced, now 1 dollar is about 0.79 euro, but this is completely off-topic.

 

[Danoff]

Exactly, a "civil" society does not let its people die (regardless of social status) when adequate resources are more than available to treat those who need it most.

That is the definition of uncivilized.

i am sorry, but someone who says it was immoral to use wealthy people's money to treat poor people in hospital because they can't afford it by themselves and would have to die or suffer otherwise has not understood the basic idea of civilization and society...

you are aware that we are not talking about plastic surgery here, right?

It is immoral to take anyone's money and give it to someone else unless it is absolutely necessary for society to function. That does not include health care.

Taxes money is being taken from the citizens to be able to buy them things they couldn't do themselves. I guess using tax money to construct roads / railroads is stealing as well since everyone could buy their own little piece of highway? While most European countries charge more taxes on income and purchases, this money is being spent back on the population.

the money is being spent back on the population disproportionately. It is being taken from some and given to others - it is theft and it is uncivilized.

The USA government creates an environment which gives more free play to large corporations, making it possible for them to steal a lot of money from their employees.

Theft is illegal in the US. Corporations are not allowed to steal money from their employees - people will go to jail if that happens. The US has an environment that is conducive to productivity and invention. It is why we are the richest nation on earth.

US is the most charitable nation on earth and probably in the history of the earth.

No they're not, when you take the percentage of foreign development aid when compared to the national income of the USA, you will see that this percentage is lower than any European country donates to development projects.

Don't normalize it by any kind of national income. In terms of dollars - in terms of actual good done - the US is the most charitable nation in the history of the Earth.

That's subjective, you only know the level of freedom in the USA so you can't compare. Having the choice to choose between a right winged party and a more right winged party isn't exactly democratic, and in the USA you're not more free to do things in a lot of ways that you can in other countries.

While that's true, you're freer in the US than most countries.

Besides that, what does freedom have to do with history? Slaves still working the cotton fields less than 100 years ago, "N-word-ERS SIT IN THE BACK"-signs in buses until not that long ago. Yeah, afro Americans really enjoyed the freedom in American history...X.

It cost us over half a million lives but we took care of that.

 

[DemonSeed]

Don't forget the billions we spent to rebuild Europe after WWII.

not rebuild europe but build a front against soviet union.

us of a is on 37th place on WHO report on health care [24th on infant death, 31st on life expectancy]. costa rica takes better care of its citizens.
freedom? of what? im glad not to be american 'cos you could sue me for saying what i think, right?

Originally Posted by danoff
In my eyes, one very important measure of how civilized a country is is how much they oppress their people - how unfair their laws are to different citizens for arbitrary reasons.

as mentioned before, you just got out of treating black people as lesser beings. took a long time for a civilised nation. and kkk?

not to forget that you slaughtered the real american people. that usa actually used WMD. that it is worse in africa than it is in middle east, only in africa they dont have oil. that usa made it through ww2 unscratched, being on different continent, which must have helped economy [and as for euro, its better than usd anyway].


the most civilised country must be vatican. no crime, not too many wars [none recently], great diplomacy etc. and even some god is on their side. cant lose.

 

[James2097]

That does not include health care.

Bollocks. Healthcare IS life or death. Its a fundamental building block of a civilised society.

 

[ledhed]

What exactly do you consider " Civilized " ? What criteria are you using ? What historical time frame if any are you using ? Is it technology ? How many people you shoot ? How many people you have burned in ovens after gassing them ? how many wars you have won / lost ? Whats civilized ?

 

[Max_DC]

That is the definition of uncivilized.

It is immoral to take anyone's money and give it to someone else unless it is absolutely necessary for society to function. That does not include health care.

Wow, what a load of bull**** .... ...great

the money is being spent back on the population disproportionately. It is being taken from some and given to others - it is theft and it is uncivilized.

Wow, another very good point... oh wait...actually not at all

Theft is illegal in the US. Corporations are not allowed to steal money from their employees - people will go to jail if that happens. The US has an environment that is conducive to productivity and invention. It is why we are the richest nation on earth.

He talked about low payed jobs... come on, don't pretend that you didn't get that...

Don't normalize it by any kind of national income. In terms of dollars - in terms of actual good done - the US is the most charitable nation in the history of the Earth.

Well, of course it is important how much of your money you give away... So it is the same when a person that earns 50000 $ a year donates 5000 $ as well as a person that earns 2000000 $ per year ? Yes, maybe the effect is the same, but we are talking about values here



Wikipedia.org :



A civilization or civilisation has a variety of meanings related to human society. The term comes from the Latin civis, meaning "citizen" or "townsman."

1. In the technical sense, a civilization is a complex society in which many of the people live in cities and get their food from agriculture, as distinguished from band and tribal societies in which people live in small settlements or nomadic groups and make their subsistence by foraging, hunting, or working small horticultural gardens. When used in this sense, civilization is an exclusive term, applied to some human groups and not others.

2. In a broader sense, civilization often can refer to any distinct society, whether complex and city-dwelling, or simple and tribal. This definition is often perceived as less exclusive and ethnocentric than the first. In this sense civilization is nearly synonymous with culture.

3. Civilization can sometimes refer to human society as a whole, as in "A nuclear war would wipe out Civilization" or "I'm glad to be safely back in Civilization after being lost in the wilderness for 3 weeks." Additionally, it is used in this sense to refer to the potential global civilization.

4. Civilization can also mean the standard of behavior, similar to etiquette. "Civilized" behavior is contrasted with "barbaric" or crude behavior. In this sense, civilization implies sophistication and refinement.

5. Another use of civilization combines the first and fourth meanings of the word, implying that a complex society is naturally superior to less complex societies. This point of view has been used to justify racism and imperialism; powerful societies have often believed it was their right to "civilize," or culturally dominate, weaker ones ("barbarians"). This act of civilizing weaker peoples was sometimes called the "White Man's Burden."

This article will mainly treat civilizations in the first, narrow, sense. See culture, society, etiquette, and ethnocentrism and for topics related to the broader senses of the term. See also Problems with the term.

So where is the tax definition you always speak about ?

Oh point 5 .... Well, I take back everything, the US seems to be the most civilized country in the world....

 

[smellysocks12]

It is immoral to take anyone's money and give it to someone else unless it is absolutely necessary for society to function. That does not include health care.



the money is being spent back on the population disproportionately. It is being taken from some and given to others - it is theft and it is uncivilized.

That's your opinion, not an American opinion. Many Americans would also disagree with you here.

Theft is illegal in the US. Corporations are not allowed to steal money from their employees - people will go to jail if that happens. The US has an environment that is conducive to productivity and invention. It is why we are the richest nation on earth.

Looking at the previous remark it shows me that you're contradicting yourself. You say the taxes are theft, yet theft is illegal in the USA. Taxes are legal. What is stealing? Stealing can be seen as literally taking something from someone, they don't do that. But if only that is what stealing is, then copying cd's isn't stealing either. Not to take the discussion into another direction, in my opinion it's also stealing to underpay employees because they don't have another choice. I don't say that it's only the USA is doing this, because European companies go to Asia for cheap labor as well, or buy from African farms who underpay their employees. At least in Europe the regulations in many countries are better to protect employees against the power of corporations.

Don't normalize it by any kind of national income. In terms of dollars - in terms of actual good done - the US is the most charitable nation in the history of the Earth.

Expenditure on development funds should be seen as an amount per capita, you can't compare nominal amounts. Of course the nominal amount of the USA is higher, simply because you guys have more people generating income.

It cost us over half a million lives but we took care of that.

Not enough, many black people still experience racism in their daily lives in the USA, which still can be traced back to slavery and the hanging of blacks by the KKK. Especially in rural areas people still wish that slavery would still exist.