which is the most civilsed nation on earth?

[ZAGGIN]

Boy, looks like a lot of America hatin' went on here this morning! I just want to say, no Americans I know thinks like danoff and Viper Zero.

amen. im not anti-american either, but i cant stand those ignorant few that cant see further than plymouth rock. imo dandoff and viperzero dont represent the general view of other americans. i would be worried if they did. americans tend to get a lot of stick (rightly or wrongly) because of the way their nation conducts itself. i live in the uk, and whilst my nation is not perfect, it is generally well respected. i would be interested to hear what other nations think of the uk. please post your views whether they are positive or negative.

i created this post for two reasons, one being the thread itself, and the second less obvious was to see how long it would take for american nationalism to swamp this thread. as you all can see this thread has been truly swamped.
many americans rightly posted thier views on their country stating why the place where they live is the most civilised. what was noticeable though, was the fact that not one american said anything negative about thier country, and there was no mention on how other nations around the world perceived them. why?

imo, many (if not all) of the most civilised nations on earth are in europe. proof of this is the europpean union. nowhere else on earth is there a collection of nations working together for the common good. the founding principles of this union are still alive today, and whilst i'll admit that the EU is not perfect, there is nothing else anywhere that even comes close. there may of been two world wars, and countless other wars in centuries past, but since 1945, europe as a whole has moved forward together.
im british and proud to be, but my nation is not be perfect. the same goes for many other nations in europe. the thing that makes the EU civilised is the fact that many nations, however different are willing to work together. this happens nowhere else on earth.

 

[Danoff]

I think I'll stop replying to danoff's posts, his views upon the world/society are completely different from mine and in my opinion also warped. I'll just keep on hoping that people with his type of view on society won't ever get an important function in politics.

Ok, run away.

Danoff, you don't deserve a serious reply, you're verifiably immoral, selfish, and uncivilised. Hopefully just crazy, hopefully you don't really understand what you are arguing, then I could forgive you.

You're obviously a very civilized enlightened individual to resort to something like this is a discussion.

How old are you? 12?

Obviously older than you are. My wife, her parents, and some friends of mine at work would all say similar things to what I have said - and I'll bet they're older than you are as well. But age doesn't really matter now does it?

Ok. So what, in your view, would be the "civilised" thing to do?
Letting the child grow up uneducated, without a real chance to get out of poverty?

I've gone through this a great deal in the public schools thread - but public schools can and should be eliminated in America while continuing to legally require parents to provid their children with education.

Letting him die if he needs surgery because his parents cant afford it?

I've gone through this a great deal in the health care thread - but... people die. Get used to it. If I contract a rare disease tomorrow that would require millions of dollars to cure, I would die. I don't care that if Bill Gates got the same disease, he might live due to his wealth of resources. I would expect that too if I created a company like microsoft.

I guess since the parents are the ones responsible for this then we make an orphan and put them to jail? Would that be mandatory with parents bankrupcies? Great definition of freedom and civilisation, or a better world.

It's funny how you ask questions, then answer them incorrectly and make fun of your conclusion. Yes it would be mandatory for parents to provide their children with educations, but that doesn't actually mean they have to spend one cent on it.

Oh wait, charity would all take care of this, as empirically demonstrated somehow, somewhere in history...

Americans donate billions upon billions of dollars to charity yearly.

Thinking of it, that would be awesome, we wouldn't have to exploit Asians or South Americans in sweat shops, we could have our very own, right here on North American soil!

If you're referring to child labor... we have laws against that and they make sense.

Endless opportunities of exercing a better freedom for everyone... Let's stop those low-grade workers leeches ripping us off and stealing us by immoral (if not evil) means such as minimum wages and access to basic healthcare and education.

It is evil and immoral to steal. Even if you're stealing bread or medicine.

Oppressed elites of the world, unite!! those dang taxes uh?

Try to think of it from a moral point of view rather than an emotional one.

Hey danoff, has somebody stolen your purse recently or was your house robbed or what ? You always seem to be afraid that someone could steal your money.... So what is your problem ? I tell you something :

Yes actually I have been stolen from recently - both literally and in the sense that I've spoken here in this thread. I get stolen from every April when I fill out my taxes. But it isn't my money I'm so concerned about. I get more in government services than I pay for - not that I want them all mind you. I get stolen from but others in this country and around the world have much more of their possessions forcibly taken from them by the government in the name of "charity". It is immoral.

In a world as you like to have it, there would be revolution... blah blah blah blah

Why? Who?

I just want to say, no Americans I know thinks like danoff and Viper Zero.

Danoff and Viper Zero are both Americans. As are Duke and Sage and ///M and Milefile. I personally know many many Americans who think like I do... and we're right.

I have yet to hear of one person who will explain to me how it is moral to steal from others.

Americans in general thinks very different than the Americans in this thread.

Yes, the majority of Americans think it is acceptible to vote for the money of the minority.

We just haven't gotten as good at it yet as our European and Canadian friends.

i created this post for two reasons, one being the thread itself, and the second less obvious was to see how long it would take for american nationalism to swamp this thread. as you all can see this thread has been truly swamped.

Hardly. Most of the pro-American posts here are mine. The rest of the contributors are happily in the socialist - pro legislated immorality = civilization camp.

nowhere else on earth is there a collection of nations working together for the common good.

Nowhere else on earth is there a collection of nations working together to oppress a minority of people - and who still call themselves moral.

 

[smellysocks12]

Danoff, you're not only anti-socialism, you're anti-social, and anti-social people aren't exactly the ones to go in discussion with.

 

[Solid Fro]

That's way off base smellysocks. Keep it clean or get out.

 

[ZAGGIN]

Hardly. Most of the pro-American posts here are mine.

so come on then since most of the post are yours, you've obviously got the most to say. tell us some bad things about your country. how do you think other nations percieve america?

Nowhere else on earth is there a collection of nations working together to oppress a minority of people - and who still call themselves moral.

name this minority of people that are being oppressed please.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

name this minority of people that are being oppressed please.

The minority that I quoted from one of my favorite movies of all time (see profile).

Put simply, the wealthy elite.

 

[a6m5]

Before you think I'm an American hater, please read my earlier post!

Danoff and Viper Zero are both Americans. As are Duke and Sage and ///M and Milefile. I personally know many many Americans who think like I do... and we're right.

OK, you have six people, on top of everybody at Fox News. Yes, I'm an Japanese citizen. But I've lived here almost twenty years, and I did get to know a lot of people. While many Americans are very, very proud of their country, most of them are around in the middle. Some are bit to the left, some are bit to the right. I've met plenty, who are waaaaay to the right like Viper Zero, I've never met one person like you, danoff. While I do occasionally see far-right people, they don't represent the majority of the U.S. I'll put it this way. U.S. is an wonderful country. If everybody turned into you and Viper Zero, I'd seriously reconsider my earlier statement:

To me, it's very simple. I'd rather have USA as the worlds' sole Super Power. Not the Imperial Japan/Nazi Germany, Soviet Union, Communist China(we still have to watch out for this one).

Let's look at the beggining of this thread again:

which is the most civilised nation on earth? i believe a nation can be deemed civilised by its actions, how it treats others, how it treats its own citizens (ie sick, poor, disabled), its view of the world (foreign policy, foreign aid etc), how others nations view that nation, and by its history.
so come on, stand up for your nation and state its good points (as well as its bad points). no matter how big or small your country may be, let us know your views about the place where you live, and give opinions about what you think about other countries.

My guess is, there's probably few countries that could be considered more "civilized" than the U.S. in the world with the guidelines given by the thread starter. Now if the thread was about, "who's sacrificed more for this world"(I dedicate this one to Viper Zero), "which country is the best ever", "country, you want to live in", or something along that line, I'd voted for the U.S., no prolbem. However, you totally ignored that guideline given by ZAGGIN, comes in here and goin' off about "Oh, USA, the most civilized nation in the universe, blah blah blah, if you disagree with me you're wrong, I don't give a rats ass about, blah blah blah". Yeah, I'm sure you are making a great case for your country. Some of the members you mentioned, they may share your views on supporting the U.S., but I don't see them act the way you and Viper did in this thread. It' little arrogant IMO.

P.S. It's nice to see you MrktMkr.

 

[PS]

You support the troops, but not the war?

I love your logic.

I'm not even going to get into the Iraq/Afghanistan thing (Guess who the CIA trained and sold weapons to?), but what's wrong with supporting soldiers but not a war?

 

[a6m5]

but what's wrong with supporting soldiers but not a war?

Talk about opening up a can of worms!

 

[PS]

Talk about opening up a can of worms!

I'm good at that.


But seriously, I not only don't see any hypocrisy in it, but I also don't see anything offensive about it. I'm going to be getting a lot of "omfg how can you support the soldiers but not teh war youre just hater american n00b go back to canada mr. deadface goth Manson stupid sux0rs1!!11" , but I'd still like to see what your guys takes on this are.

 

[a6m5]

No, there's nothing wrong with it. I have not met a single person, who has a problem with that. Not all soldiers had choice to choose, if they wanted to go to war or not. I'm with you there. 👍

 

[Danoff]

Not all soldiers had choice to choose, if they wanted to go to war or not. I'm with you there.

America does not have a draft. All of our military men and women are there by choice.

I've never met one person like you, danoff.

I've met a few, but I'm not surprised you haven't.

My guess is, there's probably few countries that could be considered more "civilized" than the U.S. in the world with the guidelines given by the thread starter.

Not by the guidelines given by the thread starter. I'll give you an example:

which is the most civilised nation on earth? i believe a nation can be deemed civilised by its actions, how it treats others, how it treats its own citizens (ie sick, poor, disabled),

How it treats its own citizens... hmmm... like stealing from them? Treating them unfairly? That's something Canada and the UK do a lot more than we do here in the US. Granted we do a lot of it too, but we're clearly better about it than they are (ie more civilized).

so come on then since most of the post are yours, you've obviously got the most to say. tell us some bad things about your country. how do you think other nations percieve america?

I don't care how other nations percieve america. I care only whether America is right and just - and it is not. But it is more civilized than any of the other countries I've seen mentioned because of it is near the top of the list in terms of justice/fairness in addition to being a technological and cultural leader (culture meaning music, art, entertainment etc).

But I have lots of bad things to say about America. Pull up the health care thread, or the public schools thread, or the welfare thread, or the democracy thread - all of which I started and all of which are aimed at attacking institutions America has established (not that they started or were thought up here) or directions americans want to head. Most of my words on the opion board have been against America - but that doesn't mean I don't think it's the best country on Earth and in the history of the Earth. It just still isn't anywhere near being perfect.

 

[a6m5]

America does not have a draft. All of our military men and women are there by choice.

You must be joking me. I agree with that they are obligated to be there, they joined the Armed Forces. However, not everybody agreed with invasion of Iraq. I have talked to few soldiers who were in Iraq, and I am telling you, there are soldiers who wants to come home.

 

[James2097]

No, there's nothing wrong with it. I have not met a single person, who has a problem with that. Not all soldiers had choice to choose, if they wanted to go to war or not. I'm with you there. 👍

Ditto, its perfectly reasonable to think like this. If you're against the war in Iraq (or more correctly the reasons Bush gave to go in...) its still perfectly fine to respect the troops and wish them well, they don't make the decisions, they're just doing their job.

btw, I have already said in a previous post I think America is a great country. Amazing music (blues, jazz, helping start rock & roll... I play several American guitars (my most prized possessions)... American movies are great (except when trying comedy), the whole freedom thing is great as a concept, and I honestly think most American's hearts are in the right place, even if they need a bit of help with things...) 👍

Some Americans equate a little contructive criticism to hate? Remember this:
Its usually your best friends whom are your most outspoken critics... we only want the best for you!

No one is an American- HATER on this thread... criticism is said in the hope to improve things, to help disscussion, to give a different take on how things could work... nowhere near saying "screw America, I don't care about you guys"...

As for everyone being "socialist" on this thread?! HA! I voted for New Zealand for ****-sake, a capitalist country, and explained that that was good! I would rather be able to make money and have a better living standard if I work hard.. Duh! Except I want social responsibility, decent healthcare, a fair welfare system, merit based uni entry etc also! This is perfectly achievable! Australia and New Zealand have all these things!

Getting rid of a lot of tax is all well and good (everyone wants to pay less tax...), but its simplistic and naive in the extreme. Any country would turn into a 3rd world disaster area in no time, if no one cared about their neighbors...

I'm not religious myself, but being so selfish (thinking social responsibility is stealing...) is actually against the bible ("..help you fellow man.." etc... Christianity is big on generosity..), a huge contradiction amonst the ideaology of many hard right-wing republicans...

 

[a6m5]

Some Americans equate a little contructive criticism to hate? Remember this:
Its usually your best friends whom are your most outspoken critics... we only want the best for you!

No one is an American- HATER on this thread... criticism is said in the hope to improve things, to help disscussion, to give a different take on how things could work... nowhere near saying "screw America, I don't care about you guys"...

You might be right about that. Sorry if I offended anybody.

 

[James2097]

You might be right about that. Sorry if I offended anybody.

You're cool a6m5, you haven't said anything crazy! What did I say then that made you go ?
Only the first paragraph of my post above was in reference to your quote that I posted, and I agreed with you! I started talking to "others" after that...

 

[a6m5]

You're cool a6m5, you haven't said anything crazy! What did I say then that made you go ?
Only the first paragraph of my post above was in reference to your quote that I posted, and I agreed with you! I started talking to "others" after that...

Right on. 👍 I went regarding the hater thing. I was might have called the critics of the U.S. "haters", and as you've said in your post, that's not exactly true.

 

[Solid Fro]

I'm not even going to get into the Iraq/Afghanistan thing (Guess who the CIA trained and sold weapons to?), but what's wrong with supporting soldiers but not a war?

You can't support the troops and not support the war, it's contradicting.

How can you support a solider and what he does if what he does is what you do not support?

Hey Jordan, it's great that you work hard on your website, too bad I think it sucks!

See what I mean?

 

[Solid Fro]

I'm not religious myself, but being so selfish (thinking social responsibility is stealing...) is actually against the bible ("..help you fellow man.." etc... Christianity is big on generosity..), a huge contradiction amonst the ideaology of many hard right-wing republicans...

Idiocy.

You think all "right-wing" Republicans believe in Christianity? No wonder you have no credibility.

Since I do not believe in Christianity or any type of religion, does that still make me a Republican?

 

[a6m5]

God bless you, Viper.

Let me give you an example. Locally, there are groups here which support the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many of the contributors are against the war, but they like to support the troops. Some donates supplies that could be used by the troops in Iraq, such as toothpaste, shaving gel, etc. Some handymen even contribute their services to the families(wife, kids) of the troops, with things like plumbing and other stuff around their house.

Even if you don't agree with war in Iraq, you don't have to hate the troops for fighting in it. They are just doing their job.

 

[sn00pie]

You can't support the troops and not support the war, it's contradicting.

How can you support a solider and what he does if what he does is what you do not support?

Hey Jordan, it's great that you work hard on your website, too bad I think it sucks!

See what I mean?

I see what you mean, and it makes no sense. If someone works hard at something, and the end results are poor - does the person in question not deserve to be supported?

 

[Solid Fro]

So, these people are supporting the war, by aiding the solider who fights it.

 

[a6m5]

So, these people are supporting the war, by aiding the solider who fights it.

Oh, brother.

 

[Solid Fro]

I see what you mean, and it makes no sense. If someone works hard at something, and the end results are poor - does the person in question not deserve to be supported?

Why support someone if you want them to fail?

For the record, I don't hate Jordan or GTP, and I am a donating member. This was used just for an example.

 

[sn00pie]

So, these people are supporting the war, by aiding the solider who fights it.

You assume that soldiers join the army during conflicts. While most have been contracted at different times - and whether they agree with the situations that arise, and are being sent out to is not important.

 

[Solid Fro]

I never assumed that soldiers joined the military during conflicts.

These people who "support the troops" yet, disagree with the war, did they (or would have) spit on the soldiers who returned from Vietnam?

Did they "support the troops" then?

 

[a6m5]

So, you admit those people were wrong to have spat on the soldiers returning from Vietnam? But now that most people still support the soldiers while not supporting the war, you have a problem?

 

[Solid Fro]

I have a problem with those who spat on soldiers who returned from Vietnam and those who "support the troops", but not the war.

 

[a6m5]

I have a problem with those who spat on soldiers who returned from Vietnam and those who "support the troops", but not the war.

We are so off-topic here. I do agree with you on the Vietnam, but that wasn't so simple. There were a lot of innocent civilians who were massacred by the U.S. Army.

 

[vladimir]

Why support someone if you want them to fail?

i am sure that nobody here in this thread wants the soldiers to fail.


i don't agree with the war, i think it should not have been started in the first place. but now, as a sad matter of fact, it has started. so now i want it to go as smooth as possible, with the least casualties. i don't want US soldiers to get killed, i want them to be able to return to their families. i want them to have the best equipment to be safe so that no unneccesary grief is caused. i want them to be well trained and careful so that they don't kill innocent people and i want the fighting to end as quickly as possible.

our own soldiers were send to afghanistan and i feel the same for them. i don't support the attack on afghanistan, yet i don't want them to be hurt.

is it that hard to understand?

imagine someone of your friends or family would go into a wrong direction...becoming criminal, violent or doing drugs, whatever. couldn't you disapprove of his action, yet still support him and help him out of it?


btw, you still wanted to give me some information on your sarin gas grenades...